Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;786149]I've seen Gabbert play quite a bit and dude is great..... When he stands all day BUT once that pocket caves he makes horrible decisions and isn't very accurate deep down field, has a good upside because he has a big arm but so does Mallett. I'm sticking with my guns And saying Locker will be the best QB of this draft.. Dalton is the sleeper QB with Ponder[/quote]

Personally for me it's that commitment to resetting his shoulders and constantly looking downfield that has got me rooting for Gabbert (I believe the third play in that video is the first example). I think in this day and age of exotic blitzes and 250+ pound front 7 players running like safeties that you need a guy with some mobility, unless of course you can find a Peyton Manning type player that always knows where to put the ball before the defense can get to him.

To put it simply I saw a good amount of Aaron Rodgers in Gabbert even though his numbers in that game weren't ideal.


[quote=SOUL-SKINS;786241]I think it hurts him. I def think he will be there at 10. So if Shanny likes him he's ours. I hope we take him.[/quote]

If I had to guess I would say that Arizona takes him at 5 while Buffalo takes Cam at 3. That leaves us with Mallet, Locker, and Dalton/Ponder. Personally I think you should always expect to reach on a QB when you're picking around 10 and beyond.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Not throwing at the combine is no big deal. He'll have his private workouts to show how well he can throw in shorts and a t-shirt.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=SmootSmack;786236]So what do you all think of Gabbert choosing not to throw at the combine?[/quote]

If it not due to injury, I think it raises flags.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

After seeing a lot of reference back to Aaron Rodgers, I was trying to determine what was different about him and Alex Smith and Jason Campbell coming out of college in the same draft year.

They all seemed to be talented, even though Alex Smith was preceived to be on another level -- which was indicated by their draft positions. So it wasn't something that only the nfl scouts saw.

I know it wasn't about winning because in Jason Campbell's senior year, Auburn finished undefeated and ranked #2.

So what was it in Rodgers that was different coming out of college -- that we should look for in a qb coming out of the draft this year (or any other year for that matter)?

Or is it an intangible trait that you can't really measure or discover until after the qb's been drafted?

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;786207]Nor do I.[/quote]

He's done nothing in the 4 years he had a Washington. Sucked in the Senior Bowl and the bowl game vs Nebraska. He's inaccurate, makes bad decisions and did I mention INACCURATE?? But we should take him why?? Because he can roll out and is fast?? He should just play baseball.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786250]He's done nothing in the 4 years he had a Washington. Sucked in the Senior Bowl and the bowl game vs Nebraska. He's inaccurate, makes bad decisions and did I mention INACCURATE?? But we should take him why?? Because he can roll out and is fast?? He should just play baseball.[/quote]

To my eyes this is a great take on Locker.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786250]He's done nothing in the 4 years he had a Washington. Sucked in the Senior Bowl and the bowl game vs Nebraska. He's inaccurate, makes bad decisions and did I mention INACCURATE?? But we should take him why?? Because he can roll out and is fast?? He should just play baseball.[/quote]

It seems like you haven't watched Locker play very much if at all.

How about this take. Over the eight or nine years that Pete Carroll was at USC which was by far and away the biggest NFL factory of the last decade Carroll says that Locker is the best QB USC ever faced in his entire tenure at college footballs biggest powerhouse.

When a coach with that much experience with NFL caliber players says something like that you have to ask yourself who is a better person to evaluate a PAC 10 QB? There is no one more qualified and I mean no one on planet Earth.

Locker is a really talented football player and he has elite tools.

Sure he could be a bust, but that happens plenty with can't miss QB's.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;786252]It seems like you haven't watched Locker play very much if at all.

How about this take. Over the eight or nine years that Pete Carroll was at USC which was by far and away the biggest NFL factory of the last decade Carroll says that Locker is the best QB USC ever faced in his entire tenure at college footballs biggest powerhouse.

When a coach with that much experience with NFL caliber players says something like that you have to ask yourself who is a better person to evaluate a PAC 10 QB?

There is no one more qualified and I mean no one on planet Earth.[/quote]





This....


Also locker had by far the worst supporting cast out of the other top tier QBs in the draft. Played in a pro style system which really helps.

He's smart has a big time NFL arm and can move as well as Any QB in the draft. There's a reason why he was considered a top 5 pick last year, he decided to return to school which is a good sign, it just didn't work out as he planned.

And what QBs are you'll wanting to take instead of JL? Dont say Cam or Mallett. Gabbert would be my 2nd choice but the fact that he has never played under center pretty much is scary IMO.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;786253]This....


Also locker had by far the worst supporting cast out of the other top tier QBs in the draft. Played in a pro style system which really helps.

He's smart has a big time NFL arm and can move as well as Any QB in the draft. There's a reason why he was considered a top 5 pick last year, he decided to return to school which is a good sign, it just didn't work out as he planned.

And what QBs are you'll wanting to take instead of JL? Dont say Cam or Mallett. Gabbert would be my 2nd choice but the fact that he has never played under center pretty much is scary IMO.[/quote]

I don't doubt that Locker had a poor supporting cast, but if we bring him here and he doesn't play well then its Jason Campbell all over again. We need a QB that can perform despite not having all the pieces around him. I'll always look at a QB's performance in relation to his supporting cast but there are standards that should be met.

With McNabb for instance I didn't expect him to easily post a 90+ QB rating but I did expect him to have some distance between his TD's and INT's along with at least a 60% completion percentage (or a YPA average that made up for a sub 60% completion percentage). I also expected a reasonable amount of third downs to be converted.

Locker was suppose to be an elite QB at the collegiate level. It's not like he was paired with some poh-dunk SEC 3 yards and a cloud of dust offensive mind, but rather a respected offensive mind in Steve Sarkisan. Yet he had 4 games this past year where he failed to throw for more then 75 yards (though I think one game he might have been knocked out early).

As I said before I'm not totally opposed to Locker and theres still a part of me that thinks Shanahan can fix him if it comes down to it. However my gut keeps telling me that this is a younger and faster version of McNabb. Anyway this might shed some light on the situation.

[quote]February 25, 2011 at 1:59 PM
[B]Mike Shanahan compares Jake Locker to Jake Plummer[/B]
Posted by Danny O'Neil

INDIANAPOLIS -- Washington coach Mike Shanahan -- whose team holds the No. 10 overall pick in the draft -- was asked about quarterback Jake Locker and comparisons to Jay Cutler.

"I would make more similarities to Jake Plummer," Shanahan said, "because of his ability to run."

Specifically, that ability to make plays on the move, to get outside the pocket, is a strength of Locker's. When people question Locker's accuracy, it is his accuracy from the pocket. He's as accurate as any quarterback in this draft throwing on the move.

Shanahan acquired Plummer from Arizona, and he took the Broncos to the playoffs. In 2006, Plummer was benched for Cutler -- who was then a rookie -- and retired after the season.

Shanahan said at the end he only watched a few games featuring Locker and looked forward to studying him more.[/quote]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

I keep hearing people compare QB prospects to D McNabb using DM as the type of player you don't want to draft.

The guy is only a borderline Hall of Famer.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;786258]I keep hearing people compare QB prospects to D McNabb using DM as the type of player you don't want to draft.

The guy is only a borderline Hall of Famer.[/quote]

As an Eagle though. As a Redskin in Shanahan's system he's a cautionary tale.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Shanny made Plummer a very solid QB, locker is a better overall athlete than Jake IMO. If we don't draft locker or Gabbert I'd just assume not take a QB this yr

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

I've watched Locker play all 4 years and even if someone doesn't have a great supporting cast you can tell if they have the opportunity to be a solid player. In the senior bowl when he had a chance to show what he can do what did he do? Nothing. Matt Leinart had a great supporting cast at USC and isn't worth a squirrel fart. Also, every player in the draft is talented. You don't get this far without being talented. Just riddle me this: What has Locker done for anyone to say he is the best QB in this draft?? Because he can run??? Not buying it. AJ Green, Von Miller, or Blane Gabbert.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786263]I've watched Locker play all 4 years and even if someone doesn't have a great supporting cast you can tell if they have the opportunity to be a solid player. In the senior bowl when he had a chance to show what he can do what did he do? Nothing. Matt Leinart had a great supporting cast at USC and isn't worth a squirrel fart. Also, every player in the draft is talented. You don't get this far without being talented. Just riddle me this: What has Locker done for anyone to say he is the best QB in this draft?? Because he can run??? Not buying it. AJ Green, Von Miller, or Blane Gabbert.[/quote]


He was pretty good at UW, is he still a little raw? Yes no doubt but if you think any other QB in this draft is ready to play next year, you are mistaken. Let me ask you this my man, you say Gabbert? What has he done that Locker hasn't? Thats right Nothing, so we are in the same boat my friend just different opinions. Btw I would take Green or Miller at 10 also, BUT they won't be there. How bout we go after Matt Flynn or Kyle Orton?





[url=http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/QB/Jake-Locker.php]Jake Locker, Washington, NFL Draft - DraftCountdown.com[/url]


pretty good assessment of Locker

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/09000d5d81e4ec32/article/combine-could-be-extremely-important-for-2011-qb-class?module=HP_cp2"]NFL.com news: Combine could be extremely important for 2011 QB class[/URL]


They mention Ponder here as well

[url=http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d81e76a90/Grading-the-quarterbacks?module=HP_video]NFL Videos: Grading the quarterbacks[/url]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;786264]He was pretty good at UW, is he still a little raw? Yes no doubt but if you think any other QB in this draft is ready to play next year, you are mistaken. Let me ask you this my man, you say Gabbert? What has he done that Locker hasn't? Thats right Nothing, so we are in the same boat my friend just different opinions. Btw I would take Green or Miller at 10 also, BUT they won't be there. How bout we go after Matt Flynn or Kyle Orton?





[url=http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/QB/Jake-Locker.php]Jake Locker, Washington, NFL Draft - DraftCountdown.com[/url]


pretty good assessment of Locker[/quote]

Gabbert to me is a MUCH better prospect than Locker. Is there a chance Locker can be a stud? Yes but I think there is a much better chance he ends up as Alex Smith rather than Aaron Rodgers just to compare two QBs from the same draft.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

I figured since I posted a game breakdown of Gabbert that I should at least post one about the player in the OP:

[quote=darrelgreenie;8155185]
Anyway from watching [I][B]this[/B][/I] game specifically:
[URL=http://s1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/AU-FIF/Videos/CN/?action=view&current=CaminSECChampionshipGame.mp4][IMG]http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/AU-FIF/Videos/CN/th_CaminSECChampionshipGame.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"][B]These are the plays that stood out to me. (Many of them are time marked so you can jump to those specific plays)[/SIZE][/FONT][/B][FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"]

1) Shotgun Play Action then Pump Fake WR screen left-(plenty of time in a clean pocket) then hits the right side WR on a deep Slant-Seam route. OT+ TAR+ IS+ from Auburn's 15 yd line to USC's 25 yard a 40+ yard through w/ ease good footwork nice release

3) Shotgun escapes sack starts to scramble up the middle with his eyes downfield spots the RB and makes a nifty shovel pass flick to the RB:50s

4) Shotgun 2 step drop clean footwork throws in rhythm sideline hitch left OT+ TAR+ IS+ quick release ball got there in a hurry

5) Shotgun takes off jukes the hell out of the spy gains 14+ yards gets down to avoid hit-great run

8) Shotgun PA half roll out- pressure in the face- makes nice touch pass on TE drag left to right OT+ TAR+ IS+ 2:24s

9) Shotgun Pump n Go right sideline vs all out blitz picked up beautifully- delivers OT+ TAR+ IS+
to wide open Darvin Adams TD!
...from Auburn 35 to their 30 about a 40 yard throw on a line w/ late pressure closing in 2:37s

**10) Shotgun drop backs hits left WR on a 12 yd comeback OT+ TAR+ IS+ ball got there in a hurry

15) Shotgun-dash right no pressure keeps eyes downfield, pressure comes throws a shuffle/scramble throws goofy foot fading away arm pass OT+ OT- IS- 3:13s

18) Shotgun dash right from their 45 to the 3 yards deep in the endzone steps into uncorks it looks like he had plenty of arm left (50+ yard throw) TD

21) Shotgun PA feels and avoids pressure scrambles effortlessly to his left for a 20 yard gain (this run was Randall Cunninghamesque)[/SIZE][/FONT]

[B][COLOR="darkorange"]**22) (Plenty of time/clean pocket) Shotgun straight drop back-maintains good helmet discipline down the center of the field until the last second when he looks/pivots left and hits a WR that beat the CB on and out and up and Cam beat the Safety w/ the good eye discipline and throw (from the 50 to the 10 40 yd throw w/ ease) OT+ TAR+ IS+[/COLOR][/B] 4:22s

[FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"]24) Shotgun zone read keeper runs left full speed jump-cut to pick up the 1st down nice play -gifted open field runner 5:38

25) Shotgun Pump & Go (clean pocket) slot wheel route right steps up throws OT+ TAR+ IS+[/SIZE][/FONT]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/quote]


[quote=darrelgreenie;8153018]The FIRST game we'll look at for Cam Newton is the [B]SEC Championship Game v South Carolina [/B] available here:
[url=http://whosright.com/poll/heisman-hopeful-cameron-newton-season-highlights2]Heisman Hopeful Cameron Newton Season Highlights (vids)[/url]

[B][COLOR="red"]**We couldn't fine a true game cut-up the above clip has all of Newton's completion instead of all Newton's passes.[/COLOR][/B]

Part I

Passing Chart:

[B][U]KEY:[/U][/B]
[B]OT[/B]: (+/-)on time/in rhythm
[B]TAR[/B]- (+/-) on target catchable ball (above the waist not above the shoulders within arm's length)
[B]IS[/B]- (+/-) in stride
[COLOR="darkorange"]**Good plays/NFL ability in Bolded in Orange[/COLOR]
[COLOR="sienna"]Sienna color negative plays[/COLOR]

[B][COLOR="darkorange"]1) Shotgun Play Action then Pump Fake WR screen left-(plenty of time in a clean pocket) then hits the right side WR on a deep Slant-Seam route. OT+ TAR+ IS+ from Auburn's 15 yd line to USC's 25 yard a 40+ yard through w/ ease good footwork nice release [/COLOR][/B]

2) Shotgun-has all day stays in the pocket reads through his progressions shuffles left keeps his eyes down field and throws on the run goofy footed/fading back arm throw but OT+ TAR+ IS n/a

[COLOR="darkorange"]3) Shotgun escapes sack starts to scramble up the middle with his eyes downfield spots the RB and makes a nifty shovel pass flick to the RB:50s[/COLOR]

[COLOR="darkorange"]4) Shotgun 2 step drop clean footwork throws in rhythm sideline hitch left OT+ TAR+ IS+ quick release ball got there in a hurry[/COLOR]

[COLOR="darkorange"]5) Shotgun takes off jukes the hell out of the spy gains 14+ yards gets down to avoid hit-great run[/COLOR]

6) Shotgun PA-evades sack scrambles right keeps eyes upfield hits 10 sideline pass OT+ TAR+ IS n/a throws on the run goofy foot again (off his right leg) but makes an accurate

7) Shotgun PA zone read QB draw powers through 2 tackles for the TD

[COLOR="darkorange"]8) Shotgun PA half roll out- pressure in the face- makes nice touch pass on TE drag left to right OT+ TAR+ IS+ 2:24s[/COLOR]

[B][COLOR="darkorange"]9) Shotgun Pump n Go right sideline vs all out blitz picked up beautifully- delivers OT+ TAR+ IS+
to wide open Darvin Adams TD!
...from Auburn 35 to their 30 about a 40 yard throw on a line w/ late pressure closing in 2:37s[/COLOR][/B]

[B][COLOR="darkorange"]**10) Shotgun drop backs hits left WR on a 12 yd comeback OT+ TAR+ IS+ ball got there in a hurry[/COLOR][/B]

11) Shotgun PA swing pass OT+ TAR+ IS+

12-13) 2 designed QB runs= 1st down

14) Under Center PA evades sacks by juking DL in the backfield keeps eyes upfield hits RB on swing/flat right OT+ TAR+ IS+

[COLOR="sienna"][B]15) Shotgun-dash right no pressure keeps eyes downfield, pressure comes throws a shuffle/scramble throws goofy foot fading away arm pass OT+ OT- IS- 3:13s[/B][/COLOR]

16) Shotgun PA sideline WR hitch left OT+ TAR+ IS

17) Shotgun PA sideline WR hitch right OT+ TAR+ IS+

[COLOR="darkorange"]18) Shotgun dash right from their 45 to the 3 yards deep in the endzone steps into uncorks it looks like he had plenty of arm left (50+ yard throw) TD[/COLOR]

19) Pistol WR screen L

20) Pistol slot comeback OT+ TAR+ IS+

[COLOR="darkorange"]21) Shotgun PA feels and avoids pressure scrambles effortlessly to his left for a 20 yard gain (this run was Randall Cunninghamesque)[/COLOR]

[B][COLOR="darkorange"]**22) (Plenty of time/clean pocket) Shotgun straight drop back-maintains good helmet discipline down the center of the field until the last second when he looks/pivots left and hits a WR that beat the CB on and out and up and Cam beat the Safety w/ the good eye discipline and throw (from the 50 to the 10 40 yd throw w/ ease) OT+ TAR+ IS+ 4:22s[/COLOR][/B]

23) Shotgun zone read QB dive trucks the LB for a TD

[COLOR="darkorange"]24) Shotgun zone read keeper runs left full speed jump-cut to pick up the 1st down nice play -gifted open field runner 5:38[/COLOR]

25) Shotgun Pump & Go (clean pocket) slot wheel route right steps up throws OT+ TAR+ IS+


For this game:
[B]Instincts+Intuition-[/B] 4 made plays no mistakes fumbles/ints
[B]Competitiveness[/B] -4
[B]Arm Strength[/B] -5 (self evident)
[B]Complete Inventory of passes[/B] -5
[B]Quick Delivery[/B] -4
[B]Touch[/B]- 3 (judging from stats here b/c the incompletions weren't shown but 17/28 w/ 60.7% likely includes some mistakes/missed a few throws)
[B]Read defense[/B] -3 (offense didn't require much reading of coverages but executed the offense and made his progressions made good decisions)
[B]Mobility+Avoidance[/B] -5
[B]Function while injured[/B] - N/A
[B]Not easily rattled[/B]-4
[B]Spontaneous decision/play making[/B] -5

My questions/nit-picks on Cam:
o sometimes throws arm passes without stepping into the throw
o he'll have to get used to seeing the field and making his progressions from undercenter
o after playing behind an OL that kept him well protected we'll have to see how he handles things when his process is sped up and he's getting hit

Newton is a talent.
He has all the physical tools: big time arm, great mobility, solid mechanics, nice compact throwing motion w/ quick release.
A lot of his offense doesn't translate directly into the NFL but some of it does and a QB w/ his tools in the hands of the right QB mentor in the right situation has great upside.
I wouldn't mind that place being here in DC but looking at the QBs from Kyle Shanahan's vantage point I have a hard time reconciling Kyle Shanahan's statements on Tebow last year: w/ him wanting to draft a player like Cam. (If he's even available I doubt it, my money has Newton going to Chan Gailey and the Bills)[/quote]



[quote=darrelgreenie;8153445](I just realized that we haven't commented much on each other's breakdowns in the Locker and Gabbert threads)

Reading your breakdown we saw a lot of the same things.
These throws stood out to me: On your chart passes: 1,2,4,6,8,17,25-(mine1,2,4,8,10,22,25)
I think its evident from these that Newton has an above average arm and solid mechanics/compact motion/quick release.
But passes 2,17 and 18 really show his NFL potential he hangs in the pocket goes through his progressions and really makes some nice throws; on pass 17 he holds the Safety in the middle of the field with his eyes.
He does a good job of keeping his eyes downfield and his playmaking is evident.

But for the most part he's very well protected this game.
I want to see a game where a team gets pressure on him.
He sometimes throws off balance off his back foot or goofy footed (Rodgers often throws goofy foot when he scrambles) but he's got enough arm where its not a problem.
Like many spread QBs he's gonna have to get comfortable with operating under center.[/quote]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;786264]He was pretty good at UW, is he still a little raw? Yes no doubt [B]but if you think any other QB in this draft is ready to play next year, you are mistaken.[/B] Let me ask you this my man, you say Gabbert? What has he done that Locker hasn't? Thats right Nothing, so we are in the same boat my friend just different opinions. Btw I would take Green or Miller at 10 also, BUT they won't be there. How bout we go after Matt Flynn or Kyle Orton?





[url=http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/QB/Jake-Locker.php]Jake Locker, Washington, NFL Draft - DraftCountdown.com[/url]


pretty good assessment of Locker[/quote]

When I have argued against Locker it has not been in the belief that someone else was going to come in right away and light it up. I am not sure that any QB this year will be able to step in right away.

Locker does have a big arm and can run, as you said above, but many college QB's have had that combo and not made a dent in the NFL. Akili Smith first comes to mind. Locker's senior year was not good and his Senior Bowl was awful.

I don't think that Ponder, the Senior Bowl MVP, is immediately plug-and-play. But given that he played in a pro style offense, is accurate (unlike Locker), and might be the smartest QB prospect, he might play as soon as anyone else.

I like that Matt Flynn idea. I wonder what his price will be if the CBA morass even allows such a trade.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Some of you people are about to drive me crazy using the Senior Bowl as a scouting profile of Jake Locker or any other QB for that matter.

It's absurd.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;786272]When I have argued against Locker it has not been in the belief that someone else was going to come in right away and light it up. I am not sure that any QB this year will be able to step in right away.

Locker does have a big arm and can run, as you said above, but many college QB's have had that combo and not made a dent in the NFL. Akili Smith first comes to mind. Locker's senior year was not good and his Senior Bowl was awful.

I don't think that Ponder, the Senior Bowl MVP, is immediately plug-and-play. But given that he played in a pro style offense, is accurate (unlike Locker), and might be the smartest QB prospect, he might play as soon as anyone else.

I like that Matt Flynn idea. I wonder what his price will be if the CBA morass even allows such a trade.[/quote]




I would think a 3rd rounder for Flynn would be fair but we don't have a 3rd so I guess that means our 2nd round pick would have to go to GB.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;786273]Some of you people are about to drive me crazy using the Senior Bowl as a scouting profile of Jake Locker or any other QB for that matter.

It's absurd.[/quote]

I was also using the four years of trash known as his college career.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786276]I was also using the four years of trash known as his college career.[/quote]

His last 2 seasons weren't that bad now, did he go Sam bradford like? no but locker didn't have much help either.

Josh Freeman didn't exactly light it up at KSU either and he's turned out pretty good.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;786273]Some of you people are about to drive me crazy using the Senior Bowl as a scouting profile of Jake Locker or any other QB for that matter.

It's absurd.[/quote]

If you look more closely, you will see that I mentioned his entire senior year, not just the Senior Bowl. If you want to understand his inaccuracy you'll look at his entire college career.

The Senior Bowl is only one game, as you intimate. But dismissing the Senior Bowl is foolish. In the Senior Bowl Locker played with the best, just like he will do in the NFL. And he was terrible.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;786279]His last 2 seasons weren't that bad now, did he go Sam bradford like? no but locker didn't have much help either.

Josh Freeman didn't exactly light it up at KSU either and he's turned out pretty good.[/quote]

I liked Freeman's intangibles and decision making a hell of a lot more than Locker's. That "bad" supporting cast thing isn't a very good argument IMO either.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786289]I liked Freeman's intangibles and decision making a hell of a lot more than Locker's. That "bad" supporting cast thing isn't a very good argument IMO either.[/quote]

The bad supporting cast isn't an 'argument' its either a true statement or its not.
And although you might not agree it is in fact something scouts consider when assessing a player case in point Josh Freeman.
If you follow the draft process at all you should know who Gil Brandt is and the weight his opinions carry:

[quote=Gil Brandt:]I probably differ with the questioner a little bit. I think Josh Freeman from Kansas State has a chance to be a very good quarterback in the NFL, just as Daunte Culpepper was with the Vikings when he was healthy. Freeman played on a poor team in 2008, and if you look at what he did in 2007, you’d be pretty excited about what he could do for your team in 2010. Freeman has tremendous upside. As a point of reference, look at Kansas State’s game against Texas in 2007, when he led the Wildcats to a 41-21 victory in Austin, Tex.[/quote]
[url=http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/draft-q-a-with-gil-brandt/]Draft Q. & A. With Gil Brandt - NYTimes.com[/url]

Nothing against Freeman's intangibles but if there is one area where Locker is at the top its intangibles.
Locker is about as clean a prospect from an intangibles view point as Tim Tebow.

We get that you don't like Jake Locker as a prospect but you don't need to invent spurious reasons to support your view.

Jake Locker wether you agree or not is one of the top rated QBs in this draft class for a reason.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=warriorzpath;786247]After seeing a lot of reference back to Aaron Rodgers, I was trying to determine what was different about him and Alex Smith and Jason Campbell coming out of college in the same draft year.

They all seemed to be talented, even though Alex Smith was preceived to be on another level -- which was indicated by their draft positions. So it wasn't something that only the nfl scouts saw.

I know it wasn't about winning because in Jason Campbell's senior year, Auburn finished undefeated and ranked #2.

So what was it in Rodgers that was different coming out of college -- that we should look for in a qb coming out of the draft this year (or any other year for that matter)?

Or is it an intangible trait that you can't really measure or discover until after the qb's been drafted?[/quote]Dilfer says it's the coaching/system changes EVERY year for Smith; that he's extremely talented and smart but never has the time to settle into a system. Same could be said for Campbell to a lesser extent, well except the extremely smart part.

Rodgers well.. smart.. same system, chance to learn, etc

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=tryfuhl;786296]Dilfer says it's the coaching/system changes EVERY year for Smith; that he's extremely talented and smart but never has the time to settle into a system. Same could be said for Campbell to a lesser extent, well except the extremely smart part.

Rodgers well.. smart.. same system, chance to learn, etc[/quote]

So what you're saying is - the qb needs to be extremely talented and smart, and is drafted with an nfl team that provides him a system with stability and a chance to learn.

So even though a quarterback needs to be talented and smart, it appears that the success of quarterback probably has more to do with the team that drafts him and the position that's he's put in. I think you're on to something, but I think you've just scratched the surface on this.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;786279]His last 2 seasons weren't that bad now, did he go Sam bradford like? no but locker didn't have much help either.

Josh Freeman didn't exactly light it up at KSU either and he's turned out pretty good.[/quote]

Also he managed to lead his team to a victory in the bowl game vs. Nebraska, no small feat mind you.
I also get that you don't like Locker, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But what exactly is it that makes Gabbert this superior prospect in your eyes? When you get down to brass tacks, Locker has everything a team would want in a franchise qb except for the accuracy issues in the pocket. What matters from there is whether or not a teams coaching staff feels that the accuracy issues are fixable. If they are, then I really don't see what any of the other qbs bring to the table that is superior to Locker.
Either way, I still say we pass on a qb this year and fill other holes. Look to draft one next year in what appears to be a deeper pool.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Dang it 30, I get it.....you think Locker is the choice at 10. However I avoided the Locker thread because of the essays you were posting there. They honestly are bordering on the absurd. This is the Cam Newton thread...granted you alone didn't take it off course, but you have managed to force it down a singular path. I appreciate your infatuation with stats and draft knowledge, but damn man......relax.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Terpfan76;786322]Also he managed to lead his team to a victory in the bowl game vs. Nebraska, no small feat mind you.
I also get that you don't like Locker, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But what exactly is it that makes Gabbert this superior prospect in your eyes? When you get down to brass tacks, [B]Locker has everything a team would want in a franchise qb except for the accuracy issues in the pocket.[/B] What matters from there is whether or not a teams coaching staff feels that the accuracy issues are fixable. If they are, then I really don't see what any of the other qbs bring to the table that is superior to Locker.
Either way, I still say we pass on a qb this year and fill other holes. Look to draft one next year in what appears to be a deeper pool.[/quote]

Isn't that like saying that "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for speed, agility, and hands"?

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=BuckSkin;786324]Dang it 30, I get it.....you think Locker is the choice at 10....This is the Cam Newton thread...granted you alone didn't take it off course, but you have managed to force it down a singular path. I appreciate your infatuation with stats and draft knowledge, but damn man......relax.[/quote]

Well, Dang It BuckSkin it frustrates me when people like you make false assumptions about what I think.

First of I gotta call BS on your false finger pointing and whining.
My posts in this thread included complete game passing charts and assessments not of Locker but of [I]Gabbert[/I] and [I]Newton[/I].
Other then my initial response to Dirtbag which contain more info about Gabbert then Locker you'll only find 1 other post about Locker which again was a response to Earthquake.
Since you appointed yourself the resident fascist I don't think 2 post warrants this level of whining.

Since you appear to follow my posts you should see that my post are usually responses to specific statements that other members post that I think are false or inaccurate.

And btw-If you haven't realized it yet this is actually an interent [I][B]discussion[/B][/I] forum so people are gonna have discussions.

I appreciate your concern but why don't you worry less about policing my posts and bring some football discussion to the table yourself.
Because that's why I post to discuss football not to bicker.

Hail

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;786252]It seems like you haven't watched Locker play very much if at all.

How about this take. Over the eight or nine years that Pete Carroll was at USC which was by far and away the biggest NFL factory of the last decade Carroll says that Locker is the best QB USC ever faced in his entire tenure at college footballs biggest powerhouse.

When a coach with that much experience with NFL caliber players says something like that you have to ask yourself who is a better person to evaluate a PAC 10 QB? [B] There is no one more qualified and I mean no one on planet Earth.[/B]

Locker is a really talented football player and he has elite tools.

Sure he could be a bust, but that happens plenty with can't miss QB's.[/quote][url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5005254]Seattle Seahawks acquire San Diego Chargers' Charlie Whitehurst - ESPN[/url]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

30 We will have to agree to disagree and Locker to me is the 5th best QB in this draft to me. But I do respect your view on him and skinfaninok as well. He just seems like a complete bust, not Ryan Leaf bad though. Also, there is a reason his draft stock has plummeted so much.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;786326]Isn't that like saying that "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for speed, agility, and hands"?[/quote]

No, it's nothing of the sort. His accuracy issues may stem from footwork or a something in his throwing motion. Perhaps it's something coaches can fix, perhaps not. We don't know. What the scouts seem to know however is that he has damn near every other quality you would want in a franchise qb. Your example would be less absurd if you said "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for elite speed".

Draft Robert Quinn or trade down.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Terpfan76;786346]No, it's nothing of the sort. His accuracy issues may stem from footwork or a something in his throwing motion. Perhaps it's something coaches can fix, perhaps not. We don't know. What the scouts seem to know however is that he has damn near every other quality you would want in a franchise qb. Your example would be less absurd if you said "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for elite speed".

Draft Robert Quinn or trade down.[/quote]There are plenty of recent examples though of receivers lacking elite speed, and going on to have productive if not pro-bowl level careers. Conversely, quarterbacks that lack fundamentals tend not to have the same success. Accuracy can be "fixed" if the problem is simple mechanics causing inconsistency, but in Locker's case, his problem is not that he has enjoyed flawed success where he over/under shoots a little too frequently, but rather, lacks basic pocket competency. The fact that he can't complete passes at an acceptable level will not be fixed because it's a trait of his passer profile.

I'm not saying that it's theoretically impossible to succeed in spite of that, but he would be the first in the modern NFL to do so.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

So what would be your idea of accurate then? How do you define it? What numbers are you looking for?

Personally, I feel a lot of his accuracy issues may well stem from the quality of protection he had. The guy may well have had issues in the pocket due to the fact that he rarely ever had time to make his reads and got hit enough to become gun shy or hurried. He's the type of qb you take with the idea of giving him at least a year to sit and learn. Let him play in low stress situations where any mistakes he may make will have no impact on the outcome of the game so he can get a feel for the speed of the NFL. If you are drafting Locker to start in 2011, you're making a mistake. If you are drafting him to play in 2012 or 2013, then you just may be on to something. Honestly, none of the qbs in this class should be looked upon as 2011 starters, they just aren't that good.
I am however curious about Pat Devlin and intrigued by the Dalton kid. I'm interested in seeing how they all compare at the combine.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786344]30 We will have to agree to disagree and Locker to me is the 5th best QB in this draft to me. But I do respect your view on him and skinfaninok as well. He just seems like a complete bust, not Ryan Leaf bad though. Also, there is a reason his draft stock has plummeted so much.[/quote]
Well of course we have to agree to disagree no one is out here trying to change each others minds.
For me if I see a post that I believe makes states or assumptions that I disagree I'm gonna respond.
No harm meant.
Has Locker's actual draft stock dropped or its perception has dropped?
B/c I'm of the belief that players actually scout and team evaluation don't change very much.
The draftnik community? Well that's a different story.

BTW-Blaine Gabbert seems like a total bust.

j/k
But you see how a statement like that can be made about any prospect? Its just kinda of an empty way to take a jab at prospect you don't like.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;786348]Conversely, quarterbacks that lack fundamentals tend not to have the same success. Accuracy can be "fixed" if the problem is simple mechanics causing inconsistency, but in Locker's case, his problem is not that he has enjoyed flawed success where he over/under shoots a little too frequently, but rather, lacks basic pocket competency. The fact that he can't complete passes at an acceptable level will not be fixed because it's a trait of his passer profile.

I'm not saying that it's theoretically impossible to succeed in spite of that, but he would be the first in the modern NFL to do so.[/quote]

LoL, here we go again.
So you have Locker's issues clearly figured to a certainity?
'Lacks basic pocket competency'
And now its a 'fact' that he 'can't' complete a number of passes that you deem 'acceptable'

If you exclude Locker's freshmen and his sophmore (injured week 3 missed rest of season team went 0-12) under Willingham his comp% is 56.8%.
Which would put him just a hair ahead of:
Matt Stafford: 56.6%
it puts him a hair behind
Josh Freeman: 57.9%
and not that far off from
Matt Ryan: 59.3%
Jay Cutler: 60%

In fact Locker has a lot in common w/ those QBs guess who:

Guess who scouting report this is:
[quote]Negatives: Inconsistent accuracy from the pocket and throwing on the run. Needs to anticipate downfield throws better, sometimes getting the ball to his receiver a second early or late. Makes poor decisions trying to make plays that aren't there, leading to turnovers. Doesn't feel back-side pressure. Lacks touch on shorter throws. Ball comes out of his hands poorly at times, negating his arm strength. Sometimes pats the ball before the throws. Loose with the ball in the pocket and as a runner. Doesn't move the pile as you'd expect in short-yardage situations, but his height allows him to be effective[/quote]

[quote] Negatives: Can get fundamentally lazy... ... Though he has an efficient overall release, should be able to speed it up for underneath screens passes to take better advantage of the surprise to the defense. ... Sloppy footwork. ... Will get lazy and throw off his back foot, which could lead to turnovers in the NFL... ... Willing to throw into tight spots, though more often than not he places the ball where it needs to be... ... Not great accuracy on crossing routes. ... Too often leads his receivers too far or forces them to reach back, slowing their momentum and limiting their ability to generate yardage after the catch.[/quote]

[quote]NEGATIVES:.......lacks top pass placement and has receivers extending vertically to pull the ball out of the air. Must improve his accuracy down the field. Lacks top footwork releasing the ball off a three step drop. Lacks pocket stature.[/quote]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Terpfan76;786351]Personally, I feel a lot of his accuracy issues may well stem from the quality of protection he had. The guy may well have had issues in the pocket due to the fact that he rarely ever had time to make his reads and got hit enough to become gun shy or hurried.[/quote]
I concur.
I think if Locker was as well protected as some of the other top QB prospects the perception of him would be different.

[quote]I am however curious about Pat Devlin and intrigued by the Dalton kid. I'm interested in seeing how they all compare at the combine.[/quote]
I'm not high on the Devlin kid I think people make the Flacco connection for obvious reasons but people forget that Flacco has a hand cannon that he showed off at the combine.

I like the Dalton in a second tier group of QBs after Newton, Gabbert, Locker and Mallett.

But, I like Stanzi and Ponder more...
My reasoning on Ponder/Stanzi:

While Ponder's isn't a great athlete he's a better one then people realize (better then Stanzi imo) and I suspect has a better arm then people think.
*For some reason especially around draft time people start talking about elite arm strength as if its the average in the NFL but its not.
There are plenty of good QBs w/ average arm strength; hence the term average but I digress.
I think Ponder has adequate NFL arm strength at least as much as Colt McCoy.
He has good size.
He's a senior in an pro-style offense those 2 traits are bug pluses for him.
As a senior he should be more of leader, playing in a pro-style offense he has experience doing some pre-snap reads and following progressions from under center while executing 3-5-7 step drops.
Ponder's footwork is clean and light, he has a solid consistent throwing motion.
He's been well protected and has experince getting to his 2nd and 3rd progressions.
But.
He has those injury concerns w/ his shoulder.
Despite being a 4 year player in a pro-style offense doesn't have bigtime production or efficieny numbers.(compared to Locker w/ only 2 years in a pro-style offense w/ limited talent the efficeincy numbers aren't significanlty different imo)

Stanzi shares the same traits I mentioned as positives for Ponder.
But, imo Stanzi has classic over the top throwing motion w/ the bigger arm then Ponder and proto-typical size w/o injury concerns.
Early in this draft thread I had to remind my boy Steve that 'pick 6 rick' was up there w/ everyone's darling Andrew Luck from an efficiency stand point.
And although Stanzi is also well protected he wasn't given the Fort Knox type protection afforded to Andrew Luck.
Although the great american isn't a great athlete he moves around pretty good and can throw on the run.
The main thing keeping him from the top tier QB in my eyes is lack of elite arm strength and limited playmaking ability.
But seems like a post 2nd round-mid-round QB that can come in and execute your offense w/ efficiency maybe even as rookie (ala Kyle Orton).

Neither here nor there but his over the top throwing motion and size and number remind of Brady (note I'm not saying he's the next Brady).

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

In reviewing this thread 30 I'm willing to concede it was not you who led this thread astray. However there is a difference between the mere mention of a QB and the inculcation of one. I've neither the time nor desire to argue through the next 5 pages on pocket accuracy, footwork or intangibles of Locker. It'll just end in your frustration of not being able to convert me to the Locker camp. BTW, I prefer discouraged Nationalist over whiny fascist.