Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1109615]So ... the latest twitter banter amongst the Skins' folks is that Scot likes Cooper at 5.

Thoughts?[/quote]

Best offensive player in the draft, if he is there and we take him, I won't shed a tear at all.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1109615]So ... the latest twitter banter amongst the Skins' folks is that Scot likes Cooper at 5.

Thoughts?[/quote]That would be a horrible idea. We already have tons of money invested in the wr core. We need a pass rush, secondary help, and another legit pass rusher. Anything that doesn't address one of these needs would be retarded. I understand the best player available theory. But no one could make an legitimate argument for drafting wr with that fifth pick.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1109617]Best offensive player in the draft, if he is there and we take him, I won't shed a tear at all.[/quote] But what sense would it make to grab a player at a position that we clearly don't need? Right now we need a pass rusher. We need OL help everywhere except LT. We need a quality safety. What we don't need is another wr.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1109627]That would be a horrible idea. We already have tons of money invested in the wr core. We need a pass rush, secondary help, and another legit pass rusher. Anything that doesn't address one of these needs would be retarded. I understand the best player available theory. But [B]no one could make an legitimate argument for drafting wr with that fifth pick[/B].[/quote]

Challenge accepted.

First, I am not saying you will agree with them, I am just going to point out that there are some very "legitimate arguments" for picking Cooper.

In a vacuum, given what is expected to happen in slots 1-4, Cooper is a almost a no-brainer. After Winston, he is the consensus best offensive player (McShay & Kiper have him at No. 3 overall on the board) and it is expected that Winston and at least one pass-rushing OLB/DE's will be picked before No. 5. No safeties or lineman are rated as top 5 picks - or even top 10 picks for that matter. So, if we stay at 5, we have our choice of the 3rd rated player overall and the best WR prospect or sloppy seconds at OLB. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

But, of course, we aren't picking in a vacuum. You are right, we have substantial money currently tied up in the WR position - but, for how long? Garcon is contracted through the end of this year. Jackson & Roberts through the end of next. After the top three, Ryan Grant was our 4th and, while dirt cheap, he is also developmental with the likely top end being a good slot WR. As to the top three, Roberts did not exactly tear it up as a 3rd WR. Garcon will be 30 at the beginning of the 2017 season - do we try to resign him to another FA contract? Jackson - much as I love what he does for us - has a volatile history; can we count on him to finish his contract? Bottom line, in a best case scenario, we may need a WR1 or WR2 to replace [I]someone[/I] after this season and may need to replace our WR1, WR2 [I]and[/I] WR3 after the next.

If you look strictly short term, yes - OLB seems the reasonable choice. However, this draft is stocked with solid OLB talent [I]and[/I] we have decent (not great) OLB talent on the roster in Murphy/Kerrigan so we don't [I]need[/I] a starter at the position but can get a developmental player. Again, the line and safety positions simply don't have anyone worth the No. 5 selection.

On the other hand, if you are drafting long-term, Cooper makes perfect sense. By all accounts he is a possible pro-bowler in the making - closer to Calvin Johnson than Charles Rodgers. He has a year develop behind Garcon and gives us flexibility & cap space at the position just as we are losing are current WR's. If we stay at No. 5, Cooper provides long-term security.

When you get down to it, the draft is a crap shoot no matter how you cut it. Lots of "sure-fire" picks fail. The way to succeed is to do one of two things: (1) fire as many darts as you can - i.e. get lots of picks and take your best shots; and (2) aim for the biggest targets - i.e. pick the best guys on the board regardless of whether or not they fit an immediate need b/c, in this game, today's surplus is tomorrow's area of need. (Just look at SF - two years ago, they had one of the premier LB corps in the league, today - not so much).

And, finally, the most compelling argument of all: If Scotty McC does it, it must be right.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1109615]So ... the latest twitter banter amongst the Skins' folks is that Scot likes Cooper at 5.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I like Kevin White better, but Cooper is a close second at WR. The expectation for a WR at 5 is he starts right away. So Garcon the number 3 at that cap number...? And Roberts a 4 at that cap number? The answer is clearly no, better ways to spend your money

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=Chico23231;1109651]I like Kevin White better, but Cooper is a close second at WR. The expectation for a WR at 5 is he starts right away. So Garcon the number 3 at that cap number...? And Roberts a 4 at that cap number? The answer is clearly no, better ways to spend your money[/quote]

Again, I get it but, if you draft for the short term, you lessen your chances at success and end up always chasing needs. If you draft the better prospect, regardless of position, then you are addressing problems [I]before[/I] they become needs [I]and[/I] you give yourself greater flexibility year to year.

Also, if drafted, I wouldn't mind Cooper displacing Roberts as the no. 3 this year - regardless of cap money, the better production starts. The following year, cut Roberts, no need to resign Garcon or draft a WR1 and our top 3 are still Cooper, Jackson, and Grant - probably a very solid trio.

Like I said, you may not agree with it, but there are perfectly reasonable arguments to be made for Cooper at 5.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

There will be other best players available that the team needs. Gregory, Ray, Fowler could be there and we "need" a pass rusher.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1109628]But what sense would it make to grab a player at a position that we clearly don't need? Right now we need a pass rusher. We need OL help everywhere except LT. We need a quality safety. What we don't need is another wr.[/quote]

I stand by my statement

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Positions of need factor into the "best player available" draft strategy. If a player who plays a position of need is judged to be close in draft value to one who plays a position where there is little need, then SM may take the player at the position on need. But if the player who is not at a position of need is judged to be a much better prospect than the one at a position of need, then SM would probably take the much better player. Every team makes these types of value judgements. Draft strategies are not black and white but shades of gray.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1109662]Positions of need factor into the "best player available" draft strategy. If a player who plays a position of need is judged to be close in draft value to one who plays a position where there is little need, then SM may take the player at the position on need. But if the player who is not at a position of need is judged to be a much better prospect than the one at a position of need, then SM would probably take the much better player. Every team makes these types of value judgements. Draft strategies are not black and white but shades of gray.[/quote]

Agreed. Scotty is apparently very interested in Cooper. The question is: How much better does SM think Cooper is than Fowler or one of the other top 3 OLB prospects?

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Just went back and looked B. Irvin coming out of W.Va. in 2012 when SMcC was with Seattle. In terms of their measurables, he is similar to Randy Gregory although Irvin had a little more weight coming out (235 v. 248). Both are speed rushers and most draftniks at the time felt Irvin was a reach as pass-rushing DE.

If McC thinks Gregory otherwise fits his profile, I can see McC not being deterred by Gregory's lack of weight.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1109665]Agreed. Scotty is apparently very interested in Cooper. The question is: How much better does SM think Cooper is than Fowler or one of the other top 3 OLB prospects?[/quote]

I am late to this were is the article saying Scotty is very interested in Cooper.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

If Scot is seriously interested in Cooper then I would say adios to Garçon cause he will be traded. I just can't see 3 highly paid WR's (Cooper will be the cheapest) in one team. I call it a bluff.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1109749]If Scot is seriously interested in Cooper then I would say adios to Garçon cause he will be traded. I just can't see 3 highly paid WR's (Cooper will be the cheapest) in one team. I call it a bluff.[/quote]

I don't, he didn't sign Garcon but I don't see him trading him either.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1109749]If Scot is seriously interested in Cooper then I would say adios to Garçon cause he will be traded. I just can't see 3 highly paid WR's (Cooper will be the cheapest) in one team. I call it a bluff.[/quote]


In the draft, Devante Parker and Dorial Green-Beckham would be a better fit for the Redskins because of their strong red-zone ability. I've heard both being compared to AJ Green because of their size, ball skills, and athleticism.

Only problem with Green-Beckham is off-field risks for availability, but he probably won't make it past the 1st round.

And yes, there is a considerable amount of investment at the wr position, but right now it's mainly dollars and cap space and that's completely different than investing a high first round choice would be. And these wide receivers would fill one of the biggest holes on the redskins - a big red-zone target.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1109615]So ... the latest twitter banter amongst the Skins' folks is that Scot likes Cooper at 5.

Thoughts?[/quote]

Always ok w/ BPA in 1st round.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1109627]That would be a horrible idea. We already have tons of money invested in the wr core. We need a pass rush, secondary help, and another legit pass rusher. Anything that doesn't address one of these needs would be retarded. I understand the best player available theory. But no one could make an legitimate argument for drafting wr with that fifth pick.[/quote]

When you don't draft BPA, you're always one injury away from having a huge hole in your team.

BPA builds quality depth and good special teams which means consistent winning seasons.

We have a game plan to build lasting success. Let's stick with it instead of going back to the last decade of fantasy football.

(BTW, need plays somewhat of a role in BPA evaluations)

How much longer will Jackson and Garcon be playing here and how much will it cost?

I love both of those guys but they have been around a while and are expensive.

Without them what do our WR group look like?

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1109809]When you don't draft BPA, you're always one injury away from having a huge hole in your team.

BPA builds quality depth and good special teams which means consistent winning seasons.

We have a game plan to build lasting success. Let's stick with it instead of going back to the last decade of fantasy football.

(BTW, need plays somewhat of a role in BPA evaluations)

How much longer will Jackson and Garcon be playing here and how much will it cost?

I love both of those guys but they have been around a while and are expensive.

Without them what do our WR group look like?[/quote]

It would look like the good old days of Jabar Gaffney and Taylor Jacobs

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1109812]It would look like the good old days of Jabar Gaffney and Taylor jJacobs[/quote]

Joey Galloway thinks he can still run a 4.2

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

We are not getting Cooper or Mariota at number 5! These are smokescreens to get teams to trade up for our 5th spot.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=tc2deuce;1109816]We are not getting Cooper or Mariota at number 5! These are smokescreens to get teams to trade up for our 5th spot.[/quote]

I hope you are right, an extra early pick would be huge......OLB, T, and G in the first two rounds would be great

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Why on god's green ganja earth does the draft start on April 29th? The league needs to move this shit up to the weekend after Easter.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Here's how I feel about the Redskins draft, in general:

1. If we don't get an immediate starter in the first round, then we failed. I don't want to hear about BPA, depth, or anything else. We have the #5 pick, for goodness sakes!

2. If we get two players who become starters by the end of the season, then we did a very good job.

3. If we get three players who become starters before the end of the season, then I'd say we did an outstanding job.

4. I'm assuming in all three of the above scenarios that we'll also draft two or threes other players who will make the team as backups, for now, as they develop.

SM says that drafting well is the key to building a team, so he needs to deliver.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Cooper is a stud, he is gonna be a day 1 contributor. He is tough to pass on, but really iffy to make it to the 5th pick.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1109829]Here's how I feel about the Redskins draft, in general:

1. If we don't get an immediate starter in the first round, then we failed. I don't want to hear about BPA, depth, or anything else. We have the #5 pick, for goodness sakes!

2. If we get two players who become starters by the end of the season, then we did a very good job.

3. If we get three players who become starters before the end of the season, then I'd say we did an outstanding job.

4. I'm assuming in all three of the above scenarios that we'll also draft two or threes other players who will make the team as backups, for now, as they develop.

[B]SM says that drafting well is the key to building a team, so he needs to deliver.[/B][/quote]

While I generally agree with Nos. 2-4, I disagree with you about No. 1. As to No. 1, while we should absolutely get a starter out of the No. 5 pick, let me ask you this:

(1) Do we draft the guy who SM thinks has the potential to be a perennial pro-bowler and possibly all-pro guy at a position for which we may not need immediate help or who may need a short (half season/full season) to be a spot player as he adjusts to the NFL (ex. - WR)? [I][B]OR[/B][/I]

(2) Do we draft the guy who SM thinks will be a solid/good starter - but nothing special - in the league and will likely play from Day 1 due to the team's poor talent at the position (ex. - OL)?

[BTW - As an extreme example of this type of choice, in 1975, Walter Payton was 4th pick. In his first year, he started only 7 games, didn't play at all in one game, and gained only 679 yards with a 3.5 yd/carry average. At the 5th pick, Cleveland choose Mack Mitchell who started all 14 games his first year, played regularly after that but was out of the league six years later. At the 3rd pick, Baltimore picked Ken Huff who didn't start at all his first two years but played in the league 11 years and, after his third, was a regular starter the remainder of his years. While never a pro bowler, he was a good (but not much more) player the majority of his career.]

To me, if you are truly committed to building for long term, you pick [I]the[/I] best talent unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Consistent with this, and the reason I bolded your last statement, expecting what Scotty McC "delivers" on his first draft with the team to be [I]immediately[/I] apparent to the fans represents short term thinking.

It's great to hope for immediate impact from a draft class, but, if you [I]expect[/I] immediate impact - and attempt to judge SM based on it - you are doomed to failure. Right now, if truly committed to the long term build, get the best guys on the board and check back in four years. This year, I have no expectation from SM other than that he will draft several players who, [I]in a couple years[/I], will be considered very solid guys.

With Scot McC, based on his reputation and his free agent pick-ups, I think there has been a sea change at Redskins park. I also think the vast majority Skins' fans, who have never seen how a consistent winner is built, are going to be completely frustrated for a bit. As for me, unless the picks are completely whack-a-doodle crazy, in Scot I trust.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

According to Kevin and Thom, SD is offering Phillip Rivers and their first rounder for a top 5 pick this draft...
You in?

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

No way, Rivers is an old man.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

As Thom put it......
would you do it if they threw in a 2nd for our 5th and 7th? Rivers will likely play healthy for 2-4 years and in the interim......

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;1109843]According to Kevin and Thom, SD is offering Phillip Rivers and their first rounder for a top 5 pick this draft...
You in?[/quote]

Not even a little bit

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;1109843]According to Kevin and Thom, SD is offering Phillip Rivers and their first rounder for a top 5 pick this draft...
You in?[/quote]

Yes

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=hog1;1109843]according to kevin and thom, sd is offering phillip rivers and their first rounder for a top 5 pick this draft...
You in?[/quote]

yes!

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1109841]While I generally agree with Nos. 2-4, I disagree with you about No. 1. As to No. 1, while we should absolutely get a starter out of the No. 5 pick, let me ask you this:

(1) Do we draft the guy who SM thinks has the potential to be a perennial pro-bowler and possibly all-pro guy at a position for which we may not need immediate help or who may need a short (half season/full season) to be a spot player as he adjusts to the NFL (ex. - WR)? [I][B]OR[/B][/I]

(2) Do we draft the guy who SM thinks will be a solid/good starter - but nothing special - in the league and will likely play from Day 1 due to the team's poor talent at the position (ex. - OL)?

[BTW - As an extreme example of this type of choice, in 1975, Walter Payton was 4th pick. In his first year, he started only 7 games, didn't play at all in one game, and gained only 679 yards with a 3.5 yd/carry average. At the 5th pick, Cleveland choose Mack Mitchell who started all 14 games his first year, played regularly after that but was out of the league six years later. At the 3rd pick, Baltimore picked Ken Huff who didn't start at all his first two years but played in the league 11 years and, after his third, was a regular starter the remainder of his years. While never a pro bowler, he was a good (but not much more) player the majority of his career.]

To me, if you are truly committed to building for long term, you pick [I]the[/I] best talent unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Consistent with this, and the reason I bolded your last statement, expecting what Scotty McC "delivers" on his first draft with the team to be [I]immediately[/I] apparent to the fans represents short term thinking.

It's great to hope for immediate impact from a draft class, but, if you [I]expect[/I] immediate impact - and attempt to judge SM based on it - you are doomed to failure. Right now, if truly committed to the long term build, get the best guys on the board and check back in four years. This year, I have no expectation from SM other than that he will draft several players who, [I]in a couple years[/I], will be considered very solid guys.

With Scot McC, based on his reputation and his free agent pick-ups, I think there has been a sea change at Redskins park. I also think the vast majority Skins' fans, who have never seen how a consistent winner is built, are going to be completely frustrated for a bit. As for me, unless the picks are completely whack-a-doodle crazy, in Scot I trust.[/quote]


This.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;1109843]According to Kevin and Thom, SD is offering Phillip Rivers and their first rounder for a top 5 pick this draft...
You in?[/quote]

No.

If they added their 2016 1st, I'd take it.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

For the draft in 5 years from now, this kid is 15 years old:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULIHEAeOlk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULIHEAeOlk[/URL]

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=SirLK26;1109852]No.

If they added their 2016 1st, I'd take it.[/quote]

add second round from this year. Then yes.
As amazing as it would be to see a competent QB like Rivers with our WR's. Rivers is old, so Rivers, a 1st and 2nd in the 2015 would do it for me.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

if SD offered a 1st this year.. Rivers AND a 2nd this year.. hell yeah i would take it. then i would try to trade RG to Clev or whoever hopefully for a 2nd rounder and trust SM to work his magic. three 2nd rounders would be lovely if we could manage to pul that off.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;1109843]According to Kevin and Thom, SD is offering Phillip Rivers and their first rounder for a top 5 pick this draft...
You in?[/quote]

That would be tempting and risky. Coaches' careers are made or destroyed by qb decisions.

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

Rivers is age 33. Tom Brady just won a Super Bowl at age 37. Rivers threw for 4300 yards and 31 TD's last season and he's been very durable throughout his career. In short, I think he is an outstanding NFL QB who probably has 3 or 4 good years left in the tank. And don't forget that George Blanda played QB in the NFL until the age of around 65, I think. And he kicked FG's, too. So you never know how long Rivers might last.

Right now, we have no QB. If we did the deal with SD, we'd have Rivers for 3-4 years and we could draft a QB in the first round this year or next year if we wanted to do so. We could also trade RGIII and/or Cousins if we wanted to do so. I think RGIII would have to go if we did the deal.

We could also use the 17th pick and another pick to move up in the first round this year to land a top edge rusher or RT.

Trading for Rivers wouldn't hurt the building of the team one bit and we'd get much better fast.

The only issue would be working out an extension with Rivers because he is only signed through 2015.

So, yes!

Re: 2015 Draft Prospects... First Edition
 

F yeah I'd take Rivers.