Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

I like McC but how can he say a QB that has only started for 2 full years has reached his ceiling?

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

If his ceiling is nearly 5000 yards and 25 TDs sign me up.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=MTK;1170415]If his ceiling is nearly 5000 yards and 25 TDs sign me up.[/quote]

i agree with SM that cousins needs a stellar team around him to succeed instead of (like brady, manning, rogers, brees, etc.) being able to elevate whoever gets put around them . . . hence why paying him more than those others is a lot more difficult

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

Every time I listen to Scot talk I come away thinking worse of Bruce Allen.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1170418]Every time I listen to Scot talk I come away thinking worse of Bruce Allen.[/quote]

When Snyder first fired Cerrato and hired Bruce, I thought it was a good solid move b/c Allen, even if not perfect, was clearly a significant improvement over Vinny. Unfortunately, I forgot just how low Vinny set the bar.

Changing the heaping barn full of freshly shat poop that [I]was[/I] Vinny Cerrato into the big pile of poop that [I]is[/I] Bruce Allen is, in fact, a vast improvement.

However, even after the change, you're still left with a big pile of sh**.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1170427]When Snyder first fired Cerrato and hired Bruce, I thought it was a good solid move b/c Allen, even if not perfect, was clearly a significant improvement over Vinny. Unfortunately, I forgot just how low Vinny set the bar.

Changing the heaping barn full of freshly shat poop that [I]was[/I] Vinny Cerrato into the big pile of poop that [I]is[/I] Bruce Allen is, in fact, a vast improvement.

However, even after the change, you're still left with a big pile of sh**.[/quote]

You have a gift, sir.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1170418]Every time I listen to Scot talk I come away thinking worse of Bruce Allen.[/quote]

I Wonder what he has on snyder that allows him to keep his job???
are there some pictures in a safety deposit of snyder and some midgets somewhere or what?

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=insane4theskinsi;1170432]I Wonder what he has on snyder that allows him to keep his job???
are there some pictures in a safety deposit of snyder and some midgets somewhere or what?[/quote]

It's Snyder that's the problem. Even if Allen gets sacked Danny boy will just hire another sycophant who just wants a paycheck. Dan hires these guys so when things get to bad he can shuck the blame on them swear he's turned over a new leaf and repeat the cycle again.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=Bishop Hammer;1170437]It's Snyder that's the problem. Even if Allen gets sacked Danny boy will just hire another sycophant who just wants a paycheck. Dan hires these guys so when things get to bad he can shuck the blame on them swear he's turned over a new leaf and repeat the cycle again.[/quote]

This ^^^^. I said in this thread several pages back that to some degree, every top manager / owner, etc., wants to have a sort of "yes man".

This is a great post. Bruce Allen is playing the role perfectly right now, but as was the case with Vinny, Snyder will can his ass at some point

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=MTK;1170415]If his ceiling is nearly 5000 yards and 25 TDs sign me up.[/quote]

Yeah exactly, and here's the thing about McCloughan's comments. When you take Cousins's performance in a vacuum, I don't think he's too far off in saying he has hit his ceiling. Meaning Cousins's mobility, arm talent, mechanics, and accuracy are all pretty much maxed.

But that doesn't mean his production is maxed, and I think McCloughan would say the same.

If the Redskins get more consistent running, especially in short yardage situations, then Cousins's production should improve because he should reach the red zone more often. And if the Redskins get more out of their WRs in the red zone because of the improved size and hops at the position, that should lead to more TDs.

So Cousins could perform at his personal ceiling this year, yet put up 4900 yards and 32 TDs. It's a reminder that this is a team sport, and your production is at least partially dependent on those around you.

Rather than thinking about where his ceiling is, and what that's worth, I'd think about whether this team could win a title with him if we surround him with the right pieces. I believe it can. The defense is still a long way but I think he fits as a piece of a championship puzzle. If I were GM I'd be making a long term offer in the $22M - $23M range. Hopefully that's what they plan on doing in July.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1170447]Yeah exactly, and here's the thing about McCloughan's comments. When you take Cousins's performance in a vacuum, I don't think he's too far off in saying he has hit his ceiling. Meaning Cousins's mobility, arm talent, mechanics, and accuracy are all pretty much maxed.

But that doesn't mean his production is maxed, and I think McCloughan would say the same.

If the Redskins get more consistent running, especially in short yardage situations, then Cousins's production should improve because he should reach the red zone more often. And if the Redskins get more out of their WRs in the red zone because of the improved size and hops at the position, that should lead to more TDs.

So Cousins could perform at his personal ceiling this year, yet put up 4900 yards and 32 TDs. It's a reminder that this is a team sport, and your production is at least partially dependent on those around you.

Rather than thinking about where his ceiling is, and what that's worth, I'd think about whether this team could win a title with him if we surround him with the right pieces. I believe it can. The defense is still a long way but I think he fits as a piece of a championship puzzle. If I were GM I'd be making a long term offer in the $22M - $23M range. Hopefully that's what they plan on doing in July.[/QUOTE]
How high would you go? I don't think he will sign for less than 24 maybe 25 would you go to 26 if that's what it took?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1170448]How high would you go? I don't think he will sign for less than 24 maybe 25 would you go to 26 if that's what it took?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk[/quote]

Well I guess I see that part of it differently. I really don't think he'll make a fuss over $25M or $23M per year, I think where he would get concerned is on the guaranteed portion. So far the Skins have been downright insulting on that side of it.

I think if you offer him 5 years $115M with $60M of it guaranteed, I think he takes it. I don't think he's out to milk the team out of every last dollar, he just wants the guarantee he deserves and that makes sense to sign a long termer instead of taking it year to year.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=Schneed10;1170449]Well I guess I see that part of it differently. I really don't think he'll make a fuss over $25M or $23M per year, I think where he would get concerned is on the guaranteed portion. So far the Skins have been downright insulting on that side of it.

I think if you offer him 5 years $115M with $60M of it guaranteed, I think he takes it. I don't think he's out to milk the team out of every last dollar, he just wants the guarantee he deserves and that makes sense to sign a long termer instead of taking it year to year.[/quote]

his agent said he wants 25 per and 75 gauranteed

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1170450]his agent said he wants 25 per and 75 gauranteed[/quote]

Agents say a lot of things. If he insists on that much, and won't sign with us for any less, I would have to see what I could get in a trade, honestly.

But like I said, I truly think if it comes down to it, he won't try to suck every last dollar out. I do believe he wants to be here.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=Schneed10;1170451]Agents say a lot of things. If he insists on that much, and won't sign with us for any less, I would have to see what I could get in a trade, honestly.

But like I said, I truly think if it comes down to it, he won't try to suck every last dollar out. I do believe he wants to be here.[/quote]

i hope your right, but i am not counting on it . . . i know i wouldn't give a upper middle tier QB the highest paying contract in the history of the sport

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1170456]i hope your right, but i am not counting on it . . . i know i wouldn't give a upper middle tier QB the highest paying contract in the history of the sport[/quote]

Unfortunately that is exactly the way it works. You overpay for what you have, knowing that in a few years the salary cap inflation will make the contract seem less crazy.

Unfortunately, when you give a big QB contract, you hope that you can draft well to keep up with FA losses, since you can't afford to keep everyone. If you don't draft well, you end up like the Colts - wasting years of good QB play with a bad team.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1170449]Well I guess I see that part of it differently. I really don't think he'll make a fuss over $25M or $23M per year, I think where he would get concerned is on the guaranteed portion. So far the Skins have been downright insulting on that side of it.

I think if you offer him 5 years $115M with $60M of it guaranteed, I think he takes it. I don't think he's out to milk the team out of every last dollar, he just wants the guarantee he deserves and that makes sense to sign a long termer instead of taking it year to year.[/QUOTE]
He is guaranteed 24M this year and barring injury and/or a complete breakdown of his game this year he is guaranteed a minimum of 29M (transition tag) next year. I think for him to sign a long term deal before July 15 the Skins would have to offer at least 75 guaranteed or basically 3 years at 24M. I also think he has very little desire to stay a Skin and would prefer to see where the free agent market would set his salary.

I think the contract KC would sign is in the range of Luck's contract. If the Skins offer a "fair" contract and he rejects it than I have no problem not paying him top 3 money for what his performance has been.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1170461]He is guaranteed 24M this year and barring injury and/or a complete breakdown of his game this year he is guaranteed a minimum of 29M (transition tag) next year. I think for him to sign a long term deal before July 15 the Skins would have to offer at least 75 guaranteed or basically 3 years at 24M. I also think he has very little desire to stay a Skin and would prefer to see where the free agent market would set his salary.

I think the contract KC would sign is in the range of Luck's contract. [B]If the Skins offer a "fair" contract and he rejects it than I have no problem not paying him top 3 money for what his performance has been.
[/B]
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk[/quote]

I couldn't care less if the Skins were to overpay to keep Kirk Cousins. I don't care one iota how his contract compares to any other player's contract. They can pay him twice as much as Tom Brady makes for all I care. I just want them to sign him to a long-term contract.

We all know our history with QB's and, with that in mind, I have no desire to see the Skins gamble once again at that critical position. I believe that Kirk is good enough now to get us where we want to go and he gets even better every season.

To the Skins management I say this: "We have a QB we can win with for the next 5 to 10 years. That QB is Kirk Cousins. So just shut up and pay up!

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1170467]I couldn't care less if the Skins were to overpay to keep Kirk Cousins. I don't care one iota how his contract compares to any other player's contract. They can pay him twice as much as Tom Brady makes for all I care. I just want them to sign him to a long-term contract.

We all know our history with QB's and, with that in mind, I have no desire to see the Skins gamble once again at that critical position. I believe that Kirk is good enough now to get us where we want to go and he gets even better every season.

To the Skins management I say this: "We have a QB we can win with for the next 5 to 10 years. That QB is Kirk Cousins. So just shut up and pay up![/quote]

You will care when they can't afford to put anyone around him. That is the foundation of the argument. Is Kirk good enough that you can over pay him a bit and his talent makes up for the lost of potential players we could have had if not for his salary. B-more some what has that problem now with Joe F. and his contract.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=mredskins;1170468][B]You will care when they can't afford to put anyone around him. [/B]That is the foundation of the argument. Is Kirk good enough that you can over pay him a bit and his talent makes up for the lost of potential players we could have had if not for his salary. B-more some what has that problem now with Joe F. and his contract.[/quote]

That's why you build through the draft.

Besides, it's all about the guaranteed money anyway. It looks to me that the Redskins management is trying to pull a fast one on the guaranteed amount to compensate for their own stupidity in signing Kirk to [U]two[/U] franchise tag deals. That's about real money, not salary cap dollars.

There is no way that Kirk and his representatives are going to let the Skins make up for the $19M they paid him last season by trying to pay him a low guaranteed amount on a new long-term deal signed prior to this season. I'd guess that about 40% of any long-term deal would need to be guaranteed to get Kirk to sign.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1170472][B]That's why you build through the draft. [/B]

Besides, it's all about the guaranteed money anyway. It looks to me that the Redskins management is trying to pull a fast one on the guaranteed amount to compensate for their own stupidity in signing Kirk to [U]two[/U] franchise tag deals. That's about real money, not salary cap dollars.

There is no way that Kirk and his representatives are going to let the Skins make up for the $19M they paid him last season by trying to pay him a low guaranteed amount on a new long-term deal signed prior to this season. I'd guess that about 40% of any long-term deal would need to be guaranteed to get Kirk to sign.[/quote]

Yeah build through the draft great, but look at the Saints. Drew Brees is giving them their money's worth, he's great, but there's no room for error. If you don't draft perfectly you have little recourse to make up for it.

I still think Cousins will sign as long as the offer is reasonable.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=Schneed10;1170476]Yeah build through the draft great, but look at the Saints. Drew Brees is giving them their money's worth, he's great, but there's no room for error. If you don't draft perfectly you have little recourse to make up for it.

I still think Cousins will sign as long as the offer is reasonable.[/quote]

Great example with Brees...another would be the Ravens. Since Flacco signed the big contract...they've gotten worse each year as their big names have gone away.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=ethat001;1170458]Unfortunately that is exactly the way it works. You overpay for what you have, knowing that in a few years the salary cap inflation will make the contract seem less crazy.

Unfortunately, when you give a big QB contract, you hope that you can draft well to keep up with FA losses, since you can't afford to keep everyone. If you don't draft well, you end up like the Colts - wasting years of good QB play with a bad team.[/quote]

i would agree if he was a top tier QB . . . he is NOT . . . never in the history of the NFL has a middle tier QB been the highest paid player ever . . . it will take many years before the middle tier QB's get paid that much.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=ethat001;1170458]Unfortunately that is exactly the way it works. You overpay for what you have, knowing that in a few years the salary cap inflation will make the contract seem less crazy.

Unfortunately, when you give a big QB contract, you hope that you can draft well to keep up with FA losses, since you can't afford to keep everyone. If you don't draft well, you end up like the Colts - wasting years of good QB play with a bad team.[/quote]

People really don't understand the concept of inflation.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1170481]i would agree if he was a top tier QB . . . he is NOT . . . never in the history of the NFL has a middle tier QB been the highest paid player ever . . . it will take many years before the middle tier QB's get paid that much.[/quote]

Oh really? QB salaries keep going up, but at the time, the contracts below were very expensive, Flacco is the best comparison - an average QB paid elite money..


Joe Flacco - [URL="http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bal-breaking-down-baltimore-ravens-quarterback-joe-flaccos-1206-million-contract-20130305-story.html"]$120 mil contract in 2014[/URL], $44 guaranteed, still $22 mil / year = top 4 contract currently


Andy Dalton - [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/andy-dalton-bengals-agree-to-six-year-115-million-contract/"]$115 mil contract in 2014[/URL]


Brock Osweiler - $18/mil, $37 guaranteed (8th most guaranteed money in history)
Ryan Tannehil - $19.2 mil/yaer
Colin Kaepernick $126 million, avg $21/yr
Jay Cutler $126 million, avg 18/year

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

It simply comes down to supply and demand. There just isn't enough of a supply of above average quarterback in the league on the level of Kirk Cousins. The quarterbacks who are better than Cousins are franchise, elite quarterbacks. IMO, Cousins falls underneath that category, but is well within the potential of taking a team to the Super Bowl if that team has been well built.

Having said all of that, Cousins is worth a big contract. However, I think the Redskins should draft a quarterback next year and be prepared to not have Cousins after 2018.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=ethat001;1170566]Oh really? QB salaries keep going up, but at the time, the contracts below were very expensive, Flacco is the best comparison - an average QB paid elite money..


Joe Flacco - [URL="http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bal-breaking-down-baltimore-ravens-quarterback-joe-flaccos-1206-million-contract-20130305-story.html"]$120 mil contract in 2014[/URL], $44 guaranteed, still $22 mil / year = top 4 contract currently


Andy Dalton - [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/andy-dalton-bengals-agree-to-six-year-115-million-contract/"]$115 mil contract in 2014[/URL]


Brock Osweiler - $18/mil, $37 guaranteed (8th most guaranteed money in history)
Ryan Tannehil - $19.2 mil/yaer
Colin Kaepernick $126 million, avg $21/yr
Jay Cutler $126 million, avg 18/year[/quote]

those are all FAR lower than he wants . . . he wants 75 million guaranteed and $25 per . . . to 6 year, $150 million, $75 guaranteed . . . that dwarfs all of the deals you just mentioned . . . nobody in the history of the nfl has had as high of a deal . . . period. look at the guaranteed on those deals too . . . cap was out of his in two years . . . a total of $36 million paid out.

give me $21 - $23 per and $50 guaranteed and i'd take it in a heart beat.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1170664]those are all FAR lower than he wants . . . he wants 75 million guaranteed and $25 per . . . to 6 year, $150 million, $75 guaranteed . . . that dwarfs all of the deals you just mentioned . . . nobody in the history of the nfl has had as high of a deal . . . period. look at the guaranteed on those deals too . . . cap was out of his in two years . . . a total of $36 million paid out.

give me $21 - $23 per and $50 guaranteed and i'd take it in a heart beat.[/quote]

If those are the numbers Kirk's side is asking for, that suggests to me that the negotiations have not begun in earnest. Naturally, Kirk's side is starting off high. The numbers you suggested seem to me to be in the range of what it would take to sign Kirk to a long-term contract, [U]if[/U] he wants to be here.

The good news is that Kirk's unresolved contract status doesn't seem to have gotten in the way of building the team during the off-season.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

When are people going to understand that average to above average QB's in the NFL are going to get paid a lot of money. That's just how it is in the NFL. If you don't want to pay the premium then draft someone and let them play on their rookie deal, or go get Brian Hoyer.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1170674]When are people going to understand that average to above average QB's in the NFL are going to get paid a lot of money. That's just how it is in the NFL. If you don't want to pay the premium then draft someone and let them play on their rookie deal, or go get Brian Hoyer.[/quote]

This is a great post, i 100% agree. This is the message i was trying to get across in the other Cousins thread. The Redskins might want to play "moneyball" at QB, if they get a good system in place. Draft a guy, you know you have him cheap for a few years, when he asks for starting QB money, send him packing.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;1170683]This is a great post, i 100% agree. This is the message i was trying to get across in the other Cousins thread. The Redskins might want to play "moneyball" at QB, if they get a good system in place. Draft a guy, you know you have him cheap for a few years, when he asks for starting QB money, send him packing.[/quote]

QB is probably the only position you can't play moneyball with. There are fewer serviceable QBs than there are teams.

If the team is pursuing a moneyball type strategy at the QB position, it could hurt the team for years. Much like the RG3 trade and the cap penalty.

Not my quote but competence rather than excellence gets paid at QB.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

Money ball at QB is the worst idea ever

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=MTK;1170691]Money ball at QB is the worst idea ever[/quote]

Nah, let's let KC walk, sign Brian Hoyer for 5 mil a year and let our guru's work their magic on him. Problem solved.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=MTK;1170691]Money ball at QB is the worst idea ever[/quote]


Isn't that what the Ravens did with Trent Dilfer?If I remember correctly they said he didn't have to win games just manage them,the defense did the rest.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1170711]Isn't that what the Ravens did with Trent Dilfer?If I remember correctly they said he didn't have to win games just manage them,the defense did the rest.[/QUOTE]



A QB like Dilfer winning it all is the exception to the rule

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

Redskins to announce new front office structure Tuesday
[url]https://www.thescore.com/news/1317573[/url]
(via [url]http://thesco.re/theScore_app[/url] )
The last sentence in the above article is going some folks lose their shit. TRIGGERED!

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[quote=mredskins;1170898]Redskins to announce new front office structure Tuesday
[url]https://www.thescore.com/news/1317573[/url]
(via [url]http://thesco.re/theScore_app[/url] )
The last sentence in the above article is going some folks lose their shit. TRIGGERED![/quote]

Regarding the last sentence, I doubt that anybody on this site will be surprised.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

The rumor is Eric S. is going to be named the GM. When I was out at the OTA practice last week a few of the employees at 980 had mentioned this but it was not confirmed.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

[url=http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19623620/washington-redskins-promote-doug-williams-eric-schaffer]Washington Redskins promote Doug Williams, Eric Schaffer[/url]

Does this really change anything? I feel like it confirms what we already know. Allen runs the FO ship with input from Gruden on the personnel side.

Re: Redskins fire GM Scot McCloughan
 

Some shuffling and renaming....not much to get excited about.
But if it creates stability, I'm all for it.
Lets win a Championship!