Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

I'm all for Winston but would still hope we draft a QB. Hogs Haven has a decent series on why we should invest the 11th pick and while I disagree with some of the methodology applied it doesn't really change the overall narrative. The big take away in our entire franchise history we draft a long term QB option on average every 17 years. Of the basic four options you can do with the 11th, trade up, draft a QB at 11, draft a position player at 11 and go with a vet, trade back, drafting a QB top 15 of first round is the best option for sustained success. Of course the big problem the last 20 years has been Snyder having his hands in the draft process.

[url]https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/3/2/22957938/why-the-washington-commanders-should-draft-a-quarterback-at-pick-11-part-2[/url]

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

RR " This team needs a veteran QB"

Ron is not a rookie QB guy, his career says that.. Cam was a cant miss pick that yr.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1311579]I can't believe you guys want Winston. This is the guy who threw 30 ints and wants to eat a W... SMH...[/QUOTE]


Yup one year he had a shit ton of int’s was also in an offense that aired it out - didn’t he have 33 td’s and like 5000 yards too? When he got to New Orleans he was playing way smarter until he got hurt. Would [emoji817] take a chance on him.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1311581]Say what you want about Foles but he is a SB champion, something Cousins will never be.[/QUOTE]


Yup and say what you want about Trent Dilfer but he is a SB champion, something Dan Marino will never be. That doesn’t mean diddly and you know damn well KC is a better quarterback than Foles.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=BaltimoreSkins;1311583]I'm all for Winston but would still hope we draft a QB. Hogs Haven has a decent series on why we should invest the 11th pick and while I disagree with some of the methodology applied it doesn't really change the overall narrative. The big take away in our entire franchise history we draft a long term QB option on average every 17 years. Of the basic four options you can do with the 11th, trade up, draft a QB at 11, draft a position player at 11 and go with a vet, trade back, drafting a QB top 15 of first round is the best option for sustained success. Of course the big problem the last 20 years has been Snyder having his hands in the draft process.

[url]https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/3/2/22957938/why-the-washington-commanders-should-draft-a-quarterback-at-pick-11-part-2[/url][/QUOTE]


Well look at it this way, its a semi weak quarterback class. If we get Winston and we don’t have a low pick next year it is probably because he played well. If we do, take a quarterback in the stronger class.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

Winston is better than Mitch and TH by far

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311590]Yup and say what you want about Trent Dilfer but he is a SB champion, something Dan Marino will never be. That doesn’t mean diddly and you know damn well KC is a better quarterback than Foles.[/quote]

damn son

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/15BuyagtKucHm/200.gif[/IMG]

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

Kirk has had multiple 30 td seasons LOL, we can't get 30 Passing TDs with 4 QBs total in one season... Stop the hate on the guy, he left because of our trash organization back then... Its better now

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1311570]Cousins is better than Foles and Sam tho, he's consistently putting up top 15 numbers. Foles was a 1 hit wonder[/quote]

This has nothing to do with who's better than who, this is a group of QBs that have not played to the expectations of their contract and money in terms of wins, playoff appearances, etc,. etc. But it also shows that teams always are going to overpay QBs, and the market of QBs will dictate that.

And I picked these QBs since they are in Andrew Brandt's Business Hall of Fame list.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1311595]This has nothing to do with who's better than who, this is a group of QBs that have not played to the expectations of their contract and money in terms of wins, playoff appearances, etc,. etc. But it also shows that teams always are going to overpay QBs, and the market of QBs will dictate that.

And I picked these QBs since they are in Andrew Brandt's Business Hall of Fame list.[/quote]

I get that part, I'm just saying Kirk got paid but he's been solid since his payday.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1311588]RR " This team needs a veteran QB"

Ron is not a rookie QB guy, his career says that.. Cam was a cant miss pick that yr.[/quote]

I agree he was but just to show that scouts are so woefully all over the place here was a national scouts analysis of Cam's QB class: “I don’t like any of them, really,” said a national scout for a team with an established starter. “There’s no Sam Bradfords. There’s no Josh Freeman. I think they’re all second or third rounders.”

Imagine thinking either of them in hindsight were better than Cam or even Andy Dalton for that matter.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1311596]I get that part, I'm just saying Kirk got paid but he's been solid since his payday.[/quote]

He has been solid, but he doesn't get paid "solid QB" money. But when he went on the market, he was the best QB available and gets to dictate whatever money he gets paid.

Going back to people wanting a "cheap QB" that will rarely happen. Especially this year when we have a seemingly not so great rookie QB class. A lot of these tier 2 and 3 QBs are going to get overpaid, because of the market.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1311594]Kirk has had multiple 30 td seasons LOL, we can't get 30 Passing TDs with 4 QBs total in one season... Stop the hate on the guy, [B]he left because of our trash organization back then[/B]... Its better now[/quote]

Back then?
It's still a trash organization.


To add to your point on KC, he knew what was up.
He had a career year throwing to Garcon and Jackson only to find himself throwing to Doctson and Pryor the following year.
Never complained, just cashed out.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311591]Well look at it this way, its a semi weak quarterback class. If we get Winston and we don’t have a low pick next year it is probably because he played well. If we do, take a quarterback in the stronger class.[/quote]

I would be fine with that. I hope DS is okay with RR not having a franchise QB for a third year, although in my mind only a second since they had to play Haskins the first year. My fear is that I have flown to close to the sun on wings of pastrami emotionally in regards to Dans absence from team input.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1311593]damn son

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/15BuyagtKucHm/200.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/iMJTuh4M6XmHzjVjN3/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311590]Yup and say what you want about Trent Dilfer but he is a SB champion, something Dan Marino will never be. That doesn’t mean diddly and you know damn well KC is a better quarterback than Foles.[/quote]

The overall body of work says Cousins is better. I will agree there. But Foles played great on the biggest stage. Cousins hasn't done that and probably never will.

I think w/ Cousins what's most important to him is making as much money as possible and keeping good stats. He's a good to very good QB but not a championship QB.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1311579]I can't believe you guys want Winston. This is the guy who threw 30 ints and wants to eat a W... SMH...[/quote]

He ate a lot of W's at FSU. National Champion.

He is the most talented option imo. I'd be happy with him or Trubisky, as long as we draft someone too.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1311605]The overall body of work says Cousins is better. I will agree there. But Foles played great on the biggest stage. Cousins hasn't done that and probably never will.

I think w/ Cousins what's most important to him is making as much money as possible and keeping good stats. He's a good to very good QB but not a championship QB.[/quote]

He's bitchboy that is a damn good business man. Played us like a violin. Vikings too.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1311594]Kirk has had multiple 30 td seasons LOL, we can't get 30 Passing TDs with 4 QBs total in one season... Stop the hate on the guy, he left because of our trash organization back then... Its better now[/quote]

I was always pro Kirk, even when most of the fanbase still had a hard on for RG3. I knew Griffin was a phony. It just took longer to find out Kirk is one too.

Would I be happy if we got Kirk back? At the right price yes.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1311599]He has been solid, but he doesn't get paid "solid QB" money. But when he went on the market, he was the best QB available and gets to dictate whatever money he gets paid.

Going back to people wanting a "cheap QB" that will rarely happen. Especially this year when we have a seemingly not so great rookie QB class. A lot of these tier 2 and 3 QBs are going to get overpaid, because of the market.[/quote]


The going rate for a Tier 2 QB is $25M+ per year.
Wentz, Cousins, Tannehill, and Ryan all make about $30mil per year.
Ignore the guys on rookie contracts or at the end of the a long contract, those numbers are misleading.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1311608]He's bitchboy that is a damn good business man. Played us like a violin. Vikings too.[/quote]

It's like all the guy cares about is making as much money as possible and nothing else matters. I can see why guys in the locker room do not warm up to him. He's not a leader, he's not a CEO of a team. He's an employee and a highly compensated one.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1311605]The overall body of work says Cousins is better. I will agree there. But Foles played great on the biggest stage. Cousins hasn't done that and probably never will.

[B]I think w/ Cousins what's most important to him is making as much money as possible and keeping good stats.[/B] He's a good to very good QB but not a championship QB.[/quote]

I think you are spot on and honestly, I don't think there is nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand why people are so bent on defending him.

To me he will always be a tier 2 QB with tier 1 QB stats.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

Also w/ Winston I think the guy has some serious demons. He was accused of rape, settled w/ the girl who accused him. Then he tried to finger his Uber driver and paid her off too. So he has paid off two people who have accused him of sexual assault.

Can we sign this guy w/ everything that's going on? You just can't. Him and Watson are just off the table imo.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1311609]I was always pro Kirk, even when most of the fanbase still had a hard on for RG3. I knew Griffin was a phony. It just took longer to find out Kirk is one too.

[B]Would I be happy if we got Kirk back? At the right price yes.[/B][/quote]

He's definitely a better option than anything below Carr IMO (and that's debatable).

But there are two things:

1. He's never going to be cheap. And again, my point has been that you will always overpay QBs. The only cheap QB is a backup.

2. Can he win with the offensive talent that we have now, given that he has not been able to win with better talent in Minnesota (Thielin, Diggs, Jefferson, Cook).

I think Kirk would be a much better QB in New Orleans, Tampa Bay, or San Francisco.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1311613]Also w/ Winston I think the guy has some serious demons. He was accused of rape, settled w/ the girl who accused him. Then he tried to finger his Uber driver and paid her off too. So he has paid off two people who have accused him of sexual assault.

Can we sign this guy w/ everything that's going on? You just can't. Him and Watson are just off the table imo.[/quote]

I mean Pittsburgh didn't seem to have an issue with Big Ben. And what Jameis has done hasn't seen the light of national news. But you bring up a good point given everything that's going on here.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1311605]The overall body of work says Cousins is better. I will agree there. But Foles played great on the biggest stage. Cousins hasn't done that and probably never will.

I think w/ Cousins what's most important to him is making as much money as possible and keeping good stats. He's a good to very good QB but not a championship QB.[/QUOTE]


Do you think maybe Foles had a better team around him for his one shining moment? I know Dilfer did. Also if Foles had the leverage Cousins did he would cash out. You can’t fault Cousins for taking more money, and Im not sure you can say he doesn’t play well on a big stage. I mean what big stage has the team around him ever afforded him? Its all situational and that’s not under Cousins control.

2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;1311612]
To me he will always be a tier 2 QB with tier 1 QB stats.[/QUOTE]


You are as hell bent on trashing him as well. I don’t even understand how you can be a tier 2 quarterback with tier 1 stats? Isn’t that what makes you a tier 1 or 2 quarterback, stats?

I mean I can go along with he is overpaid, but that’s the business of nfl quarterbacks. It doesn’t make him better or worse.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311617]You are as hell bent on trashing him as well. I don’t even understand how you can be a tier 2 quarterback with tier 1 stats? [B]Isn’t that what makes you a tier 1 or 2 quarterback, stats?[/B][/quote]

I would agree with you if I didn't see it myself. I have said it before my son plays youth hockey at a pretty decent level, season ended. I could go through the stats of each of his players and if i presented you just those stats you maybe inclined to rank just off the stats, you be dead wrong though.

There is a intangible to players that no algorithm in the world can capture, that intangible differentiates the has and has nots.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1311592]Winston is better than Mitch and TH by far[/quote]

How exactly did you come to that conclusion - that Winston is better than Trubisky by far?

Is it the "eye test"? Because the stats would suggest otherwise, or at least that they are fairly comparative.

The only thing I would give the edge to Winston for is experience. He has played more games, both in College and the NFL. That's about it.

Trubisky:
Better completion %.
Better W/L record.
More playoff experience.
More mobile.
Not coming off a torn ACL w/MCL damage.

There are no great choices beyond the obvious three QBs that we won't land. But if I have to choose between JW and MT, I think I'm going MT.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311617]You are as hell bent on trashing him as well. I don’t even understand how you can be a tier 2 quarterback with tier 1 stats? Isn’t that what makes you a tier 1 or 2 quarterback, stats?

I mean I can go along with he is overpaid, but that’s the business of nfl quarterbacks. It doesn’t make him better or worse.[/quote]

I'm not trashing him. I think he could go to New Orleans, Tampa Bay, or San Francisco and be more successful than he was in Minnesota. They have the personnel for a QB like Kirk.

Maybe calling him a tier 2 QB is not the best way to represent what I was trying to say. Maybe he's tier 1 but not elite?

I mean is he in the category as:

- Rodgers
- Mahommes
- Wilson

These are all current QBs, playing at a high level, who have double-digit/winning playoff records, and each has at least 1 SB.

In that case, a tier 1 of QBs could include Cousins. He'd be in the company of other QBs with 5 or less playoffs appearances:

- Joe Borrow
- Josh Allen
- Deshaun Watson
- Lamar Jackson
- Ryan Tannehill

So is it fair to call Kirk a tier 1 QB with elite stats?

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1311625]I'm not trashing him. I think he could go to New Orleans, Tampa Bay, or San Francisco and be more successful than he was in Minnesota. They have the personnel for a QB like Kirk.

Maybe calling him a tier 2 QB is not the best way to represent what I was trying to say. Maybe he's tier 1 but not elite?

I mean is he in the category as:

- Rodgers
- Mahommes
- Wilson

These are all current QBs, playing at a high level, who have double-digit/winning playoff records, and each has at least 1 SB.

In that case, a tier 1 of QBs could include Cousins. He'd be in the company of other QBs with 5 or less playoffs appearances:

- Joe Borrow
- Josh Allen
- Deshaun Watson
- Lamar Jackson
-[B][I] Ryan Tannehill
[/I][/B]
So is it fair to call Kirk a tier 1 QB with elite stats?[/quote]

That was a great deal for TEN, we need our version of Ryan T to come to WAS.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311616]Do you think maybe Foles had a better team around him for his one shining moment? I know Dilfer did. Also if Foles had the leverage Cousins did he would cash out. You can’t fault Cousins for taking more money, and Im not sure you can say he doesn’t play well on a big stage. I mean what big stage has the team around him ever afforded him? Its all situational and that’s not under Cousins control.[/quote]

I don't blame Cousins for getting his money. He is now at the point where he is a very wealthy man and approaching his mid 30's. What is most important at this point in his career? Trying to have a legacy and win a championship? Or to handcuff your team cause you are counting 45 million against your cap?

And you are bringing up Dilfer but that is a rare situation. The Ravens had an elite defense. Maybe if Kirk took less at some point then the Vikings could compete for a championship. He'll probably need to do that if he wants to try and win one.

And remember, the Vikings got worse after they signed him.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1311625]I'm not trashing him. I think he could go to New Orleans, Tampa Bay, or San Francisco and be more successful than he was in Minnesota. They have the personnel for a QB like Kirk.

Maybe calling him a tier 2 QB is not the best way to represent what I was trying to say. Maybe he's tier 1 but not elite?

I mean is he in the category as:

- Rodgers
- Mahommes
- Wilson

These are all current QBs, playing at a high level, who have double-digit/winning playoff records, and each has at least 1 SB.

In that case, a tier 1 of QBs could include Cousins. He'd be in the company of other QBs with 5 or less playoffs appearances:

- Joe Borrow
- Josh Allen
- Deshaun Watson
- Lamar Jackson
- Ryan Tannehill

So is it fair to call Kirk a tier 1 QB with elite stats?[/quote]

I think that is fair. He is a borderline top 10 QB.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;1311625]I'm not trashing him. I think he could go to New Orleans, Tampa Bay, or San Francisco and be more successful than he was in Minnesota. They have the personnel for a QB like Kirk.

Maybe calling him a tier 2 QB is not the best way to represent what I was trying to say. Maybe he's tier 1 but not elite?

I mean is he in the category as:

- Rodgers
- Mahommes
- Wilson

These are all current QBs, playing at a high level, who have double-digit/winning playoff records, and each has at least 1 SB.

In that case, a tier 1 of QBs could include Cousins. He'd be in the company of other QBs with 5 or less playoffs appearances:

- Joe Borrow
- Josh Allen
- Deshaun Watson
- Lamar Jackson
- Ryan Tannehill

So is it fair to call Kirk a tier 1 QB with elite stats?[/QUOTE]


Very few elites. The ones u mentioned basically. Id kill for a tier one quarterback with elite stats if that is what you want to call him.

I still, as always, have to bring up situation. I think if Kirk played with a good HC, elite weapons, and a solid defense he could definitely achieve elite status. Not all guys could- even with all that. I don’t think the teams he has played on have afforded him the opportunity to showcase what he is fully capable of. Just my opinion.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311616]Do you think maybe Foles had a better team around him for his one shining moment? I know Dilfer did. Also if Foles had the leverage Cousins did he would cash out. You can’t fault Cousins for taking more money, and Im not sure you can say he doesn’t play well on a big stage. I mean what big stage has the team around him ever afforded him? Its all situational and that’s not under Cousins control.[/quote]

I think you are underrating the team Cousins had/has around him in Minnesota. Kirk has had in his career: Diggs, Thelin, and (when Diggs left) Jefferson. He had a few years of a solid TE in Kyle Rudolph, and I believe has always had Dalvin Cook.

It is very fair to criticize him for not winning with that much talent around him and the money and the type of contract he demands.

I'm sure he can win with a stacked team like Tampa Bay, New Orleans, or San Francisco. The question is, will he reduce his price (see Brady) to go to a team like that to win.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[quote=punch it in;1311652]Very few elites. The ones u mentioned basically. Id kill for a tier one quarterback with elite stats if that is what you want to call him.

I still, as always, have to bring up situation. [B]I think if Kirk played with a good HC, elite weapons, and a solid defense he could definitely achieve elite status. [/B]Not all guys could- even with all that. I don’t think the teams he has played on have afforded him the opportunity to showcase what he is fully capable of. Just my opinion.[/quote]

I think elite QBs should be able to overcome deficiencies such as poor o-line (Rodgers, Wilson) or subpar defenses (Rodgers, Mahommes).

Kirk is a very good QB, I don't think he's shown that he's elite (his price is though :D )

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

For those against Watson and are looking to build a Boy Scout Troop football team. Here is a video of Willis handing out clothes to the homeless at the combine.

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Commanders/comments/t5yz3z/i_cant_be_the_only_one_bummed_willis_wont_be/[/url]

2022 veteran QB options
 

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;1311657]I think elite QBs should be able to overcome deficiencies such as poor o-line (Rodgers, Wilson) or subpar defenses (Rodgers, Mahommes).

Kirk is a very good QB, I don't think he's shown that he's elite (his price is though :D )[/QUOTE]


By overcome you’re meaning win a championship or make a very deep run im assuming. When the aforementioned quarterbacks did such things they had the vast majority, if not all of those elements around them. Their play tailed off somewhat when they didn’t. Stafford is a great example. He doesn’t get mentioned in the elite group, but he is an elite quarterback. He, unfortunately, had zero of those elements for most of his career- goes to a team who has the D, the weapons, the coach, the line - and that team which couldn’t get over the hump is now SB champions.

Listen I do not think he is elite, but he is way better than people think he is.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

For all of Rodger's eliteness, dude has 1 SB win. The team around you still matters, a lot.

Re: 2022 veteran QB options
 

[url]https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/03/03/end-of-star-quarterback-trade-era-already[/url]

good read