Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=12thMan;607495]I'm not sure what Zorn's biggest flaws are to be honest, but his strengths, whatever they are, don't exactly jump out at me either. I measure good coaching by one thing: winning. That's it. Good coaches win games. And he's yet to do that and it looks increasingly like he won't, at least not as the head coach of the Skins.

But the only reason I pointed out Zorn's age is because of the perception that Zorn was this guy in his 40s and that, perhaps, the fans were hoping that he would be the next Jon Gruden, Josh McDaniels, or Eric Mangini. Even though he didn't have the long coaching resume or Super Bowl ring, we were hoping that Jim Zorn would compensate for what he lacked on paper in other ways. My statement about his age wasn't an indictment on his skill or football acumen one way or another.[/quote]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.

And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill.

To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=tryfuhl;607498]Yeah I'm wondering if that's why Campbell isn't able to make the reads he needs to, throws it only to wide open guys downfield mostly, etc[/quote]

Look, Campbell isn't able to make the reads because he's not making the reads. It's as simple as that. Sure his handlers may be impacting his production some and, yes, this is his second year in the WCO. But tonight I watched, essentially, two rookie quarterbacks make a few bone headed plays, but they also made a lot of throws in some tight spaces and kept their teams in the game down the wire. That's not all coaching, that's guys playing football. In Sanchez' case, with a guy who just arrived 72 hours ago!

Jason Campbell is a football player and, at some point, his football instincts have to kick in regardless of who's coaching him and what plays are being called.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=GTripp0012;607502]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.

And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill.

To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one.[/quote]

You may have just helped me with the title of my next thread. Thanks.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=12thMan;607503]Look, Campbell isn't able to make the reads because he's not making the reads. It's as simple as that. Sure his handlers may be impacting his production some and, yes, this is his second year in the WCO. But tonight I watched, essentially, two rookie quarterbacks make a few bone headed plays, but they also made a lot of throws in some tight spaces and kept their teams in the game down the wire. That's not all coaching, that's guys playing football. In Sanchez' case, with a guy who just arrived 72 hours ago!

Jason Campbell is a football player and, at some point, his football instincts have to kick in regardless of who's coaching him and what plays are being called.[/quote]And while Campbell's numbers tell us nothing about the oppertunities Campbell's leaving on the table, they tell us he's hitting the open man about one standard deviation more than the average quarterback.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=GTripp0012;607502]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.

And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill.

To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. [B]But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one[/B].[/quote]

Agreed GTripp. One of the things I find interesting when people talk about Zorn is this. The o-line sucks..I think everyone agrees. Dropped balls, penalties, fumbles, missed blocks, missed assignments etc. have killed us. Zorn calls a play and it doesn't work..he's a dumbass. With the way this team is playing...what makes anyone think the call they would have made, would be executed the way it's suppose to? I agree he's called some questionable plays, but he's also called some good ones that the players just flatout F'd up. Batiste has to play because the FO doesn't, apparently, think the o-line is important and he has to change his calls because JC is about to get killed if he calls anything that takes time to develop. He's obviously inexperienced but he catches a lot of flack that would better be directly somewhere else. And yes..he is wearing too many hats....I believe he got them from the FO.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=53Fan;607508]One of the things I find interesting when people talk about Zorn is this. The o-line sucks..I think everyone agrees. Dropped balls, penalties, fumbles, missed blocks, missed assignments etc. have killed us. Zorn calls a play and it doesn't work..he's a dumbass. With the way this team is playing...what makes anyone think the call they would have made would be executed the way it's suppose to? I agree he's called some questionable plays, but he's also called some good ones that the players just flatout F'd up. Batiste has to play because the FO doesn't, apparently, think the o-line is important and he has to change his calls because JC is about to get killed if he calls anything that takes time to develop. He's obviously inexperienced but he catches a lot of flack that would better be directly somewhere else. And yes..he is wearing too many hats....I believe he got them from the FO.[/quote]

But see those two things, play calling and execution, are both related. When a team doesn't execute properly, that's symptomatic of something else. Perhaps lack of confidence of the strategy or the call. It all goes back to coaching in some form.

Bottom line, this team isn't prepared week in and week out. And that's on Zorn.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=GTripp0012;607500]Not trying to absolve Zorn from putting himself in a situation he couldn't handle, but I think he was more than willing to take whatever he could get.[/quote]
Oh definitely, opportunity of a lifetime. They could've told him he had to paint the lines on the field and he would've obliged.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=12thMan;607503]Look, Campbell isn't able to make the reads because he's not making the reads. It's as simple as that. Sure his handlers may be impacting his production some and, yes, this is his second year in the WCO. But tonight I watched, essentially, two rookie quarterbacks make a few bone headed plays, but they also made a lot of throws in some tight spaces and kept their teams in the game down the wire. That's not all coaching, that's guys playing football. In Sanchez' case, with a guy who just arrived 72 hours ago!

Jason Campbell is a football player and, at some point, his football instincts have to kick in regardless of who's coaching him and what plays are being called.[/quote]
I've made the same argument but you can make a guy overthink too.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=12thMan;607509]But see those two things, play calling and execution, are both related. When a team doesn't execute properly, that's symptomatic of something else. Perhaps lack of confidence of the strategy or the call. It all goes back to coaching in some form.

Bottom line, this team isn't prepared week in and week out. And that's on Zorn.[/quote]

Yes it will fall on Zorn. But you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. He has what he has to work with and frankly, it's not much. This organization still hasn't learned how important an O-line is. I'm not taking blame away from Zorn completely. He picked out most of the O assistants, but he probably shouldn't have with no more experience than he has. Zorn can't do it himself and I don't think his assistants are all that great to be honest. They are just as responsible for preparing that part of the team that they coach as he is. What else are they here for?

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=53Fan;607515]Yes it will fall on Zorn. But you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. [/quote]
Blache?

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=tryfuhl;607518]Blache?[/quote]

:laughing- The Bible I think. All I'm saying is that any good leader, whether it's business or football, surrounds himself with good people. I'm not sure Zorn has. You surround yourself w/friends, it doesn't always workout for the best. Snyder/Vinny. Maybe Zorn needs to just stop trying to run the whole show and learn to delegate and hold his assistants accountable and they'd all be better off.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=53Fan;607519]:laughing- The Bible I think. All I'm saying is that any good leader, whether it's business or football, surrounds himself with good people. I'm not sure Zorn has. You surround yourself w/friends, it doesn't always workout for the best. Snyder/Vinny.[B] Maybe Zorn needs to just stop trying to run the whole show and learn to delegate and hold his assistants accountable and they'd all be better off.[/B][/quote]

Interestingly, when Zorn first came, one of his statements was that Holmgren had taught him the art of delegating. I am confident if you asked Zorn today, "what job duties could you give to another coach to help you be more effective?" His answer would be none. And that is why he is over his head. He thinks he has to have every part in place before he makes a decision. So while his playcall may be spot on, his situational reactions are much much slower.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=GMScud;607375]We'll see. Pretty early to say they won't make the playoffs, no? They just took the lead on a nice throw by Henne, and if they hang on they'll be a game out of first in the AFC East with 3/4 of the season yet to play. Their o-line is young, their QB is young, the WRs are young, and they have a pretty stout D by the looks of it. Anyone talking about the Dolphins as a league joke?

I'd take Miami over the Skins in a heartbeat right now.[/quote]

If they had fallen to 1-4 they would have been hanging from a very thin thread.

I like their overall situation too, I was just talking strictly W/L.

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=GTripp0012;607502]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.

And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill.

To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one.[/quote]

I'm sure Snyder was impressed w/ Zorn but Zorn was not our first or second choice. I've got to believe he was a desperation hire. Cowher, Spags, Fassel all didn't work out (in Fassel's case, i think he was hired and Snyder changed his mind after a fan uproar).

What's troubling to me is that Snyder was "shocked" when JG's retired. Shocked? How can you run your organization w/out a "short" list of potential candidates especially when your coach, JG, was old and going on the 5th year of a 5 yr deal.

In hind sight, we did interview Josh McDaniel's, Ryan, Schwartz, and Spags...and we ended up w/ Jim Zorn? How did that happen?

Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
 

[quote=GMScud;607366]Willingness to spend and desire to win doesn't mean a thing unfortunately. Snyder still hasn't learned that big names/big dollars do not = wins. As evidenced by how hard he's pushing for Shanahan.

If he's got such a hard on to win and spend money, then back the Brinks truck up in the driveway of a good GM.[/quote]

You're absoutely right. We have needed that for years. But it appears Snyder doesn't want to let go.