Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;327138]Is everyone with their hand out not worth helping?[/QUOTE]

For the most part, yes.

If you are of sound mind and able body, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to 'hold your own' in this country at the very least.

I think that when most people look at their failings in life, there's usually only one person they can honestly point the finger at: themselves.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;327183]No, the Fed. Goverment will simply (and I'm simplifying here) subsidize and make the exsisting providers more affordable, their not eliminating anyone.[/QUOTE]

Anytime federal money gets involved, you can expect federal strings attached.

Make no mistake -- with nationalized/socialized/universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;327183]No, the Fed. Goverment will simply (and I'm simplifying here) subsidize and make the exsisting providers more affordable, their not eliminating anyone.[/QUOTE]

I see what you are saying and that is consistent with what mainstream politicians are calling for. I was responding, however, to Michael Moore's comments which seemed to imply that we need to get rid of insurance companies and let the government run the health care industry.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;327190]I see what you are saying and that is consistent with what mainstream politicians are calling for. I was responding, however, to Michael Moore's comments which seemed to imply that we need to get rid of insurance companies and let the government run the health care industry.[/quote]

Oh, I see..

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Beemnseven;327189]Anytime federal money gets involved, you can expect federal strings attached.

Make no mistake -- with nationalized/socialized/universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.[/quote]

Well efficiency or lack thereof and the overall delivery system has been a major part of the existing problem, and will be a major area of focus.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;327171]I hope you've got some better sources than just a movie.[/QUOTE]

Matty - I work in insurance regulation. My agency (who shall remain nameless but is a state agency that regulates insurance in a state on the eastern sea coast probably in close proximity - or surrounding - the city in which I reside) has issued [I]many[/I] orders against insurers who have improperly and intentionally denied claims. I will say it is not the common practice and does not occur with great regularity. It does, however, occur on both the large scale and small scale and either as an anomaly or through a systematic business plan.

What is common is for insurers to look for ways to deny coverage and interpret any gray area against the claimant. Most times it is simply not feasable for consumers to fight the denial of a $500 claim that falls into those gray coverage areas.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;327192]Well efficiency or lack thereof and the overall delivery system has been a major part of the existing problem, and will be a major area of focus.[/QUOTE]


I'd still take the inefficiencies of private industry over the inefficiencies of government any day.

I suppose we'll have to define our premise: I'm speaking of Moore's apparent position that gov't will completely take over, and there's NO private health care facilities period. If that's the case, then there's no one to turn to for grievances -- there is no competition. The beauty of the free market is, if someone isn't treating the consumer right, the consumer simply goes to somebody else for better service.

Can't do that when government controls everything.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I definitely agree Beem. Competition is seen as a bad thing, but it's really not so black and white like that

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Beemnseven;327204]I'd still take the inefficiencies of private industry over the inefficiencies of government any day.

I suppose we'll have to define our premise: I'm speaking of Moore's apparent position that gov't will completely take over, and there's NO private health care facilities period. If that's the case, then there's no one to turn to for grievances -- there is no competition. The beauty of the free market is, if someone isn't treating the consumer right, the consumer simply goes to somebody else for better service.

Can't do that when government controls everything.[/quote]

No, that's not correct, the government will not completely take over. They'll play a large role in ensuring that those without coverage will be through the national healthcare plan.

Those who are currently covered by their employer will most likely see very little if any difference in their plan. The changes will be gradual, and depending on the candidate, may take at least one full term to fully implement.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;327196]Matty - I work in insurance regulation. My agency (who shall remain nameless but is a state agency that regulates insurance in a state on the eastern sea coast probably in close proximity - or surrounding - the city in which I reside) has issued [I]many[/I] orders against insurers who have improperly and intentionally denied claims. I will say it is not the common practice and does not occur with great regularity. It does, however, occur on both the large scale and small scale and either as an anomaly or through a systematic business plan.

What is common is for insurers to look for ways to deny coverage and interpret any gray area against the claimant. Most times it is simply not feasable for consumers to fight the denial of a $500 claim that falls into those gray coverage areas.[/quote]

Seems like his source is a bit more legitimate than just a movie...

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;311715]Plenty, where should we start?

Let me answer with a question, what's good about our health care system?[/quote]

We have one of the worse and most larcenous health care systems in the industrialized world, all reflected by its incredibly shameful stats. I'm currently looking at a forty thousand buck operation that takes a couple of hours and a week or so in the hospital. Luckily, I have insurance that will reduce the robbery to only an outrage. Many people don't.

I've never liked a Michael Moore, but he's right a lot, espicially in this case. Wait till he does one on the Justice system.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;327173]Well said, I mostly agree.
The "assistance" programs in this country are ridiculous. It is a paramount component to our immigration problems as well. They desperately are in need of major change. We have created generations of people who no longer have thoughts of jobs, working for a living, etc. Care to hazard a guess at the BILLIONS that are being pissed away???
I'm sure no real number can be derived with any accuracy. It would be a................staggering sum[/QUOTE]


I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way.
Thanks for expressing your opinions. I had two PM's from people that were afraid to get into this discussion.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;327187]

I think that when most people look at their failings in life, there's usually only one person they can honestly point the finger at: themselves.[/QUOTE]

couldn't have said it better myself!

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;327303]We have one of the worse and most larcenous health care systems in the industrialized world, all reflected by its incredibly shameful stats. I'm currently looking at a forty thousand buck operation that takes a couple of hours and a week or so in the hospital. Luckily, I have insurance that will reduce the robbery to only an outrage. Many people don't.

I've never liked a Michael Moore, but he's right a lot, espicially in this case. Wait till he does one on the Justice system.[/QUOTE]

Just so I'm clear - you think it is larcenous for the doctor and the hospital to charge you 40K? If so, do you think they would charge less in a government controlled health care system? Do you advocate price controls in all areas or just health care? Who will decide the appropriate charges? How will they insure that competent people will want to enter an industry requiring long hours, extensive (years) training, incredibly high liability risk and still manage to make a good living?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;327491]Just so I'm clear - you think it is larcenous for the doctor and the hospital to charge you 40K? If so, do you think they would charge less in a government controlled health care system? Do you advocate price controls in all areas or just health care? Who will decide the appropriate charges? How will they insure that competent people will want to enter an industry requiring long hours, extensive (years) training, incredibly high liability risk and still manage to make a good living?[/quote]
right now my insurance company dictates to the doctors how much they will pay for certain procedures. they also dictate what procedures are necessary, and those that aren't. this is definitely NOT good thing.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;327491]Just so I'm clear - you think it is larcenous for the doctor and the hospital to charge you 40K? If so, do you think they would charge less in a government controlled health care system? Do you advocate price controls in all areas or just health care? Who will decide the appropriate charges? How will they insure that competent people will want to enter an industry requiring long hours, extensive (years) training, incredibly high liability risk and still manage to make a good living?[/quote]

Joe, you bring up another component to the problem. The "allowable", ridiculous, out of control, lawsuits that can be filed. The medical community is strapped with the burden of defending, and paying gigantic awards. Seriously driving up the cost of healthcare

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Hog1;327495]Joe, you bring up another component to the problem. The "allowable", ridiculous, out of control, lawsuits that can be filed. The medical community is strapped with the burden of defending, and paying gigantic awards. Seriously driving up the cost of healthcare[/quote]
i disagree with this. with the kind of outrageous money the people in the medical field make, if they screw me up, i want paid. no, it wont make me better. but it might make them think twice about operating on my left leg, when the problems in my right leg.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;327501]i disagree with this. with the kind of outrageous money the people in the medical field make, if they screw me up, i want paid. no, it wont make me better. but it might make them think twice about operating on my left leg, when the problems in my right leg.[/QUOTE]

There's the misconception. For the most part DRs don't make that much more relative to the barriers to entry than do most average college graduates. Unless they specialize, lots of training, then they are getting paid pretty well but not the King's ransom that lots of people want to believe. Once you factor in liability insurance most doctors aren't making anything near outrageous money.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

those guys are all at least making six figures. i know it takes a tremendous amount of schooling, but they are getting paid for what they know. its their responsibility to get it right

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;327509]There's the misconception. For the most part DRs don't make that much more relative to the barriers to entry than do most average college graduates. Unless they specialize, lots of training, then they are getting paid pretty well but not the King's ransom that lots of people want to believe. Once you factor in liability insurance most doctors aren't making anything near outrageous money.[/QUOTE]

Lawsuits against OBGYNs have gotten a lot of press and they tend to make massive amounts of duckets.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;327492]right now my insurance company dictates to the doctors how much they will pay for certain procedures. they also dictate what procedures are necessary, and those that aren't. this is definitely NOT good thing.[/QUOTE]

Under a universal health care system run by the government, wouldn't the government be dictating what operations were necessary? If not and the government would leave it up to the doctors, wouldn't the number of operations jump along with the tax burden?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

im not sure what the answer is. but i know its not working the way it is right now

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;327527]im not sure what the answer is. but i know its not working the way it is right now[/QUOTE]

Well, that's kinda the point. There is no simple answer and there may be no answer at all other than to tweak the current system.

Any replacement system is going to run into different problems of varying degrees. Any attempt to inject the government as more than regulatory oversight (i.e. make it the sole insurer) is simply going to create as many, if not more, problems than it resolves.

The system is not great - it has gaps and inefficiencies, but the same can be said of any health care system out there. Particularly on the scale of service required by the US. Essentially, it's not great but it could be a hell of lot worse (just like our legal system).

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Well, there are a lot of moving pieces to this. But I think just to keep it simple, the new plan isn't so much concerned about dictating or telling doctors how many or what surgeries to perform, but rather give the [I]underinsured[/I] and the [I]uninsured[/I] access to preventative healthcare and if needed, surgery. So yes, to SGG's question, I would imagine because you now have more people covered under the new plan and more people being able to now afford healthcare, the number of surgeries would indeed go up.

However, the potential costs or tax burden of this will be shared by the states, local and federal government, employers and the insurance providers themselves. One other thing to keep in mind, the costs of doing business is one of the big reasons our healthcare is so expensive. For instance, many patient records are still being maintained on paper. The plan is to transition and automate a lot of the record keeping and other administrative functions to reign in costs.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=dmek25;327527]im not sure what the answer is. but i know its not working the way it is right now[/quote]

Agreed.

Another point that I don't think has come up yet is our system needs to become more proactive and less reactive.

So many problems could be greatly reduced if a greater push were made towards preventing things like obesity and smoking. Our youth is having more health issues in regard to obesity than ever before, this is something that needs to be addressed at a very early age.

I think we're starting to see some progress as more and more schools are offering healthier lunch programs and pushing out the soft drink machines and junk food, but I think a lot more can and needs to be done in this area.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

One of my biggest concerns with universal healthcare is that I am completely unconvinced that our government, or any government for that matter, can adequately manage what is probably the most complex market there is. Despite what lots of people say all these universal healthcare countries do not have some type of panacae system. They all have problems in some way. And they ARE NOT cheap. People pay insane amounts of taxes for them.

Our system is just as broke, if not more, but it is broken because of so many things. The issues are mind-boggling in their complexity. And the solutions will have to be even more complex and drastic to fix it. Plain and simple it would be a program never rivaled in US history and based on the empirical evidence our government cannot handle it. Conversely, while private industry has screwed the pooch so far, I do think that with proper laws and regulations as well as effective oversight the private industry CAN fix the system. And way faster than the government could.

Some people look at this being a for profit industry and think that is bad. I tend to think the fact that it is for profit is the only thing that can fix it. Free market, for profit industry is the best way to motivate an efficient system. The problem is we need to figure out how to change it so that the profits are made without reducing service. Consolidation and managed care as the culprits because they have effectively removed actual competition from the market. We need to make the system competitive again. That should increase service and decrease cost. How this gets done? I have no idea and I guess no one else does either.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;327538]Agreed.

Another point that I don't think has come up yet is our system needs to become more proactive and less reactive.

So many problems could be greatly reduced if a greater push were made towards preventing things like obesity and smoking. Our youth is having more health issues in regard to obesity than ever before, this is something that needs to be addressed at a very early age.

I think we're starting to see some progress as more and more schools are offering healthier lunch programs and pushing out the soft drink machines and junk food, but I think a lot more can and needs to be done in this area.[/QUOTE]

100%

This is a cultural thing that will take some time to get ingrained into our society but once prevention becomes part of our culture we should see some benefits.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=FRPLG;327540]Free market, for profit industry is the best way to motivate an efficient system.[/quote]

Absolutely. 100% agree with this. Take a look at just about any private sector product that offers competition. The product and service is much better than any monopolistic industry. You want me to buy it? make it better than the other guy. You really want me to buy it? Make it better and cheaper.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;327491]Just so I'm clear - you think it is larcenous for the doctor and the hospital to charge you 40K? If so, do you think they would charge less in a government controlled health care system? Do you advocate price controls in all areas or just health care? Who will decide the appropriate charges? How will they insure that competent people will want to enter an industry requiring long hours, extensive (years) training, incredibly high liability risk and still manage to make a good living?[/quote]
Your right on look at the terrorist attacks that just failed over seas. Part of the reason this happened is beacause they have a hugh doctor shortage and were allowing in thousands of doctors to fill those needs. So in the rush to do so the terrorist saw an open door and took advantage of the situation.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;327538]Agreed.

Another point that I don't think has come up yet is our system needs to become more proactive and less reactive.

So many problems could be greatly reduced if a greater push were made towards preventing things like obesity and smoking. Our youth is having more health issues in regard to obesity than ever before, this is something that needs to be addressed at a very early age.

I think we're starting to see some progress as more and more schools are offering healthier lunch programs and pushing out the soft drink machines and junk food, but I think a lot more can and needs to be done in this area.[/quote]
Schools back when I went in the 70's and 80's sold nothing but junk food and we did not have an obesity problems like todays kids.Even at home we ate more fried food and high fat foods and go back and look at what our grandparents ate all the time. Maybe the parents should be parents and cut off the TV, computers, video games and get the kids up and moving around. Speaking of kids when I was 10 years old or around that age I would cut grass and stuff like that to make a buck. When was the last time you had a kid come by and ask to do some odd jobs?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=firstdown;327558]Schools back when I went in the 70's and 80's sold nothing but junk food and we did not have an obesity problems like todays kids.Even at home we ate more fried food and high fat foods and go back and look at what our grandparents ate all the time. Maybe the parents should be parents and cut off the TV, computers, video games and get the kids up and moving around. Speaking of kids when I was 10 years old or around that age I would cut grass and stuff like that to make a buck. When was the last time you had a kid come by and ask to do some odd jobs?[/quote]

When I was in school in the 80's and early 90's we had very little junk food and only one vending machine, and that machine only had juice in it.

Things have gotten much worse since then, as evident by [URL="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/04/07/MNGS9I4T4F1.DTL"]recent efforts to push the junk food out of schools[/URL].

You mention they aren't getting enough exercise and I totally agree, but again that's something that can start at an early age at school as well.

When I was in school we had gym class 2-3 days per week, but I've heard of schools where gym classes are optional.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=dmek25;327501]i disagree with this. with the kind of outrageous money the people in the medical field make, if they screw me up, i want paid. no, it wont make me better. but it might make them think twice about operating on my left leg, when the problems in my right leg.[/quote]

Yah, I hear you D.
The deal for me is the amounts put on this type of thing and the legitimacy of same. If I'm your patient, and you mess me up, there needs to be some sort of calc for deriving a reasonable solution. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that exists today.
Granted, it blows when something happens to someone you care about in a negligent manner. There should be punitive action of some kind taken against the doc. There should be some kind of compensation to the victim or their family, depending on the severity. In this case, I think reason has left the building.
I don;t think doc's in general don't make the scratch they used to. At least I think they have to hussle a lot more to get it. Be part of a group referring to there own specialists, therapists, testing facilities, etc.
I was part of a business bringing up a small group of doc's for cosmetic stuff a few years ago, and I was shocked. We quit taking most ins, as we could not get anything for our services. I'm not saying doc's are not living pretty good, but ai don't think most of them enjoy the wealth many people think.
The system needs to be stripped down and start over. it is killing itself

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;327567]When I was in school in the 80's and early 90's we had very little junk food and only one vending machine, and that machine only had juice in it.

Things have gotten much worse since then, as evident by [URL="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/04/07/MNGS9I4T4F1.DTL"]recent efforts to push the junk food out of schools[/URL].

You mention they aren't getting enough exercise and I totally agree, but again that's something that can start at an early age at school as well.

When I was in school we had gym class 2-3 days per week, but I've heard of schools where gym classes are optional.[/quote]
Matty our difference in how we look at thing is you think goverment is the answer and I feel people need to take more responsibiltity for themself. I agree that it may help some to remove the junk food from the schools but that is such a small part of the problem. Its like the parents blamming fast food for their childs weight problem while sitting in line at Burger King. The school I attened had all those junk food machines.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=firstdown;327589]Matty our difference in how we look at thing is you think goverment is the answer and I feel people need to take more responsibiltity for themself. I agree that it may help some to remove the junk food from the schools but that is such a small part of the problem. Its like the parents blamming fast food for their childs weight problem while sitting in line at Burger King. The school I attened had all those junk food machines.[/quote]

I never said the gov't is the answer, I think you're correct as well. I think schools AND parents need to do a better job. If people took more responsibility for their own situations we wouldn't have the problems that we do. I think at times people need some guidance and examples to follow, and if that means the gov't and/or schools stepping in and providing that I'm all for it.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;327516]those guys are all at least making six figures. i know it takes a tremendous amount of schooling, but they are getting paid for what they know. its their responsibility to get it right[/QUOTE]

You act like all medical care is black and white. I have problem with Drs who have been negligent getting punished but an awful lot of good honest Drs get sued for dubious reasons. Pretending that anyone is going to do their job with 100% efficacy is silly.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

i agree with the silly lawsuits. but that were the judges have to tell them, this is a joke and get the hell out of my court room

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=firstdown;327558]Speaking of kids when I was 10 years old or around that age I would cut grass and stuff like that to make a buck. When was the last time you had a kid come by and ask to do some odd jobs?[/quote]

Yeah good point, whenever we have a big snowstorm I'm always thinking where are all the kids at?

When I was a kid my friends and I were always walking around with our shovels after a storm trying to make a buck or two.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;327648]Yeah good point, whenever we have a big snowstorm I'm always thinking where are all the kids at?

When I was a kid my friends and I were always walking around with our shovels after a storm trying to make a buck or two.[/quote]


Around here, instead of kids you see Hispanic Men going around with shovels. I think some kids think that if you have to sweat to do it, you're suppossed to hire a Mexican. When I was a kid, Ms. Garret from Diff'rent Strokes was the only maid that I ever heard of. Now, I am the only adult I know who cleans his own GD house. Most people think they are too important to perform physical tasks. I don't think they're lazy, I just think they have a distorted view of themselves and this rubs off on their kids.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I think the real problem with health care is that all of the parties involved tend to point the finger at the other person. Like the Ins Co. saying its the doctors and hospitals and the doctors blaming the Ins. co. etc. Maybe if the goverment, doctors, insurance co, Rx, and the hositals and places that provide the services would just sit down and have open talks they could figure out ways to improve the system. I would also include everyday Americans in these talks. It just seem to me evryone is always point the finger at someone else when all involved have a % of blame.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;327665]I think the real problem with health care is that all of the parties involved tend to point the finger at the other person. Like the Ins Co. saying its the doctors and hospitals and the doctors blaming the Ins. co. etc. [B]Maybe if the goverment, doctors, insurance co, Rx, and the hositals and places that provide the services would just sit down and have open talks they could figure out ways to improve the system.[/B] I would also include everyday Americans in these talks. It just seem to me evryone is always point the finger at someone else when all involved have a % of blame.[/QUOTE]

I'll get right on it.

Healthcare is a modern day Gordian Knot. Unfortunately, I don't see an Alexander the Great on our political horizon.