Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=Meks;421592]i wouldnt give up moss for CJ ...[/quote]

I would. I said this last year and got killed for saying it but SM is a nice #2 NFL wr. Nothing more and nothing less. He is not a #1. CJ is a number one NFL wr and his production speaks for itself. However I'm very skeptical about giving up a first round draft pick for him.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

I'm really sorry to be a hater but the problem with the Redskins is that our owner and his monkey boy might as well be participants in this forum because I'm sure they'd love nothing more than to give Chad Johnson a 15 million dollar signing bonus and lock him up for the next five years (or two - until they renegotiate his contract).

We currently have over 13 million in salary for 2008 locked up in 3 wide receivers - even if Lloyd is cut, the cap hit will be substantial and we are still talking about a big chunk of our cap being devoted to wide receivers.

No offense to all the people who are getting a hard-on for #85 but are you insane?

I don't understand why we are talking about Briggs and Chad Johnson when year after year, the teams that are winning super bowls are following such a different personnel model than the Redskins.

We are talking about teams that draft well, sign free agents for below market value, cultivate their own talent.

Why are we still talking about signing two guys who we are going to pay above market for - and in the process, sacrifice depth at other - more vital - positions.

Personally, I would rather use the finances to build depth on our lines and focus on the draft. Let someone else blow up their cap to sign this over-priced free agent.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

I'm not totally against trading for CJ, but I'm not thrilled about it either, I guess I'm on the fence with him. I don't agree with the way he's handled himself lately, it's obvious he really wants out of Cincy but he's gone a bit overboard with his behavior.

My thinking is this, we need a true #1 WR. Moss is not the guy. Drafted WRs typically do not make an instant impact and can sometimes take a few years to develop, and this draft doesn't have any WRs that really excite anyone. A WR is a position that I think is worth trading for. Hell I think it's the Bengals that need to worry about getting fair value for him. He's definitely one of the top WRs in the game and has 6 straight seasons of 1000+.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=skinsfan69;421698]I'm being funny here but why does everyone around here have a hard on for Lance Briggs? I just don't see what all the hoopla is all about. He's a nice player but I certainly would not break the bank for Briggs.[/quote]
IMO LB is a pretty big need area for us and he is the best out there. As Matty said, Rocky's knees are questionable at best. Washington isn't getting any younger and has had recent injuries, Fletcher is solid but not a young player and I'm not sure if any changes Blache will implement to the defense will fit him. Blades is unproven.

If we could bring in Briggs, it upgrades us immediately and we don't lose anything other than $$$/cap space. This is a much more prudent signing than CJ would be.

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;421709]IMO LB is a pretty big need area for us and he is the best out there. As Matty said, Rocky's knees are questionable at best. Washington isn't getting any younger and has had recent injuries, Fletcher is solid but not a young player and I'm not sure if any changes Blanche will implement to the defense will fit him. Blades is unproven.

If we could bring in Briggs, it upgrades us immediately and we don't lose anything other than $$$/cap space. [B]This is a much more prudent signing than CJ would be[/B].[/quote]

I agree with you there. It makes much more sense than it did last year that's for sure.

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[quote=Drift Reality;421705]I'm really sorry to be a hater but the problem with the Redskins is that our owner and his monkey boy might as well be participants in this forum because I'm sure they'd love nothing more than to give Chad Johnson a 15 million dollar signing bonus and lock him up for the next five years (or two - until they renegotiate his contract).

We currently have over 13 million in salary for 2008 locked up in 3 wide receivers - even if Lloyd is cut, the cap hit will be substantial and we are still talking about a big chunk of our cap being devoted to wide receivers.

No offense to all the people who are getting a hard-on for #85 but are you insane?

I don't understand why we are talking about Briggs and Chad Johnson when year after year, the teams that are winning super bowls are following such a different personnel model than the Redskins.

We are talking about teams that draft well, sign free agents for below market value, cultivate their own talent.

Why are we still talking about signing two guys who we are going to pay above market for - and in the process, sacrifice depth at other - more vital - positions.

Personally, I would rather use the finances to build depth on our lines and focus on the draft. Let someone else blow up their cap to sign this over-priced free agent.[/quote]

THANK YOU. See, what we should do is let Blades play the weak side until Rocky comes back. The guy was a tackling machine in college. Put his ass out there and let him learn. You need to have some starters that make 500k to balance out the team. Unless you're the Pats, and you already have most of the pieces in place, chasing high priced FA's is such a waste of time. Look at SF last year? They signed a bunch of guys and they still sucked. You can't go around trying to buy a team. Nate Clemons got big $. They signed a guy from NE and Balt, can't remember their names. Did it help them? Nope. IT DOESN'T WORK. You don't see Pittsburgh chasing around these guys. That's cause they draft and have guys waiting in the pipeline. When is our FO going to learn?

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;421697]True good point. Plus the Dolphins are coming off a 1-15 season and are definitely in rebuilding mode. That takes away some of the appeal especially if the money is close.[/QUOTE]

I think the Dolphins' first priority is going to be Asante Samuel

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;421709]IMO LB is a pretty big need area for us and he is the best out there. As Matty said, Rocky's knees are questionable at best. Washington isn't getting any younger and has had recent injuries, Fletcher is solid but not a young player and I'm not sure if any changes Blanche will implement to the defense will fit him. Blades is unproven.

If we could bring in Briggs, it upgrades us immediately and we don't lose anything other than $$$/cap space. This is a much more prudent signing than CJ would be.[/quote]

Sorry but I'm throwing Blades out there and let K. Campbell spell him. Why did we draft him? To play teams and be a back-up his whole career?

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

NE went out and spent money on FA's last year. Yeah they came up one game short but I wouldn't be too upset with 18 wins.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;421700]Rocky had bad knees even before this latest injury. I'm not sure he can ever be counted on.

Blades might be a nice find but Briggs is easily the better player right now.

Briggs and the Skins had a deal in place before the trade fell through. I'm sure there is still interest from both sides. Briggs wants out, Chicago has indicated they aren't interested in bringing him back, do the math.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that beyond Rocky McIntosh the Redskins are having some serious concerns about Marcus Washington's health. So it's not just a matter of plugging in Blades.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;421709]IMO LB is a pretty big need area for us and he is the best out there. As Matty said, Rocky's knees are questionable at best. Washington isn't getting any younger and has had recent injuries, Fletcher is solid but not a young player and I'm not sure if any changes Blanche will implement to the defense will fit him. Blades is unproven.

If we could bring in Briggs, it upgrades us immediately and we don't lose anything other than $$$/cap space. This is a much more prudent signing than CJ would be.[/quote]

I agree, but I still hope the price isn't as high as was reported last year - 20mil bonus I believe.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;421709]IMO LB is a pretty big need area for us and he is the best out there. As Matty said, Rocky's knees are questionable at best. Washington isn't getting any younger and has had recent injuries, Fletcher is solid but not a young player and I'm not sure if any changes [B]Blanche will implement to the defense will fit him[/B]. Blades is unproven.

If we could bring in Briggs, it upgrades us immediately and we don't lose anything other than $$$/cap space. This is a much more prudent signing than CJ would be.[/QUOTE]

We've got a coach from St. Olaf, now "Blanche" is our defensive coordinator. I'm telling you Bea Arthur is next! :)

I'm torn on who's the better choice for us. Briggs or Johnson. I was hoping to get Dansby anyway

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[quote=SmootSmack;421721]I'm torn on who's the better choice for us. Briggs or Johnson. I was hoping to get Dansby anyway[/quote]We definately have stronger depth at receiver, so I'd have to say Lance Briggs. As time goes on, it's looking like LB is becoming an immediate issue, and one that wouldn't be solved by the 2008 draft.

It does look like the CB market is drying up fast. We might be able to chase Trufant, but it looks like Nnamdi is going to be tagged (maybe Al Davis can still accomplish simple procedural tasks), and Samuel's price tag is going to be so ridiculous that only a handful of teams could even fit him in under the cap.

Back to LB though, there is certainly a spot for Briggs on this team. He can play the vastly important WLB position, and Rocky can make the switch to the less athleticly dependant SLB, where he can succeed Marcus.

Of course if we lose both Marcus and Rocky after 2009, that doesn't do a whole lot of good.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=SmootSmack;421721]We've got a coach from St. Olaf, now "Blanche" is our defensive coordinator. I'm telling you Bea Arthur is next! :)

[/quote]

Am I the only one who finds these references a little disturbing?

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=Drift Reality;421705]I'm really sorry to be a hater but the problem with the Redskins is that our owner and his monkey boy might as well be participants in this forum because I'm sure they'd love nothing more than to give Chad Johnson a 15 million dollar signing bonus and lock him up for the next five years (or two - until they renegotiate his contract).

We currently have over 13 million in salary for 2008 locked up in 3 wide receivers - even if Lloyd is cut, the cap hit will be substantial and we are still talking about a big chunk of our cap being devoted to wide receivers.

No offense to all the people who are getting a hard-on for #85 but are you insane?

I don't understand why we are talking about Briggs and Chad Johnson when year after year, the teams that are winning super bowls are following such a different personnel model than the Redskins.

We are talking about teams that draft well, sign free agents for below market value, cultivate their own talent.

Why are we still talking about signing two guys who we are going to pay above market for - and in the process, sacrifice depth at other - more vital - positions.

Personally, I would rather use the finances to build depth on our lines and focus on the draft. Let someone else blow up their cap to sign this over-priced free agent.[/quote]

I agree that we should be building through the draft (and that we don't need Briggs) but at a position like WR, I really feel this is a trade worth making. I've been struggling with this lately and I keep coming back to the cowboys getting TO and the lions drafting flop after flop at the WR position. The cowboys took a huge gamble on bringing TO to town and it has put their offense over the top. Just look at them without him over the last few games of this season, they were an average offense at best and with him they are 2nd best offense the NFL.

We're mediocore as is on the offensive side of the ball and I really feel if we could have CJ open up the vertical game and take double teams off of Santana it would open up things for Moss, ARE in the slot and cooley over the middle (and of course the run game).

Depending on what we have to give up, I think this is a risk worth taking. Even if we were to draft a WR, that's a huge risk when we could draft a dependable linemen. This would obviously be an expensive trade for us but at least we know what we're getting in return (which we didn't really with B. Lloyd) , which is a bonafide game changing consistent WR for the next 5 years.

That's my vote. HAIL.

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[quote=Mattyk72;421707]Hell I think it's the Bengals that need to worry about getting fair value for him. He's definitely one of the top WRs in the game and has 6 straight seasons of 1000+.[/quote]
I agree with you that Moss isn't a true # 1, but Seattle doesn't and hasn't had a true #1 and their offensive production has been pretty good (2007 - top third, 2006 - mid third, 2005 - top third). In the WCO a True #1 is not a necessity (Seattle, Green Bay, Eagles). Obviously we'd love to have a player of CJ's caliber, but do we NEED him. I think we really have more urgent needs that could be addressed at a more reasonable price. Also having to give up the high draft picks to get him makes me say no.

In addition to Briggs, I would target Wahle from the Panthers and/or Shelton from Miami to help the OL. If we can get Wahle, Kendall can move to back-up. If Shelton comes in (probably a long shot) we can release Wade, have insurance if Jansen is injured again, and give Heyer a bit more time to develop without being "thrown to the wolves" again (although he did well this year). At WR I think we would be better off going after Bryant Johnson of the Cards or DJ Hackett. They will have a smaller contract than CJ and both are in their mid-20s and could develop into a #1.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;421721]We've got a coach from St. Olaf, now "Blanche" is our defensive coordinator. I'm telling you Bea Arthur is next! :)

I'm torn on who's the better choice for us. Briggs or Johnson. I was hoping to get Dansby anyway[/QUOTE]

Dude, Bea Arthur could be our answer at defensive end. That chick is huge.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

Back to Briggs, he's not going to be 28 until midseason, so signing him makes some sense.

But how much more sense does it make to sign him now than last year when we would have had to trade the pick that became Laron Landry?

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=SmootSmack;421721]We've got a coach from St. Olaf, now "Blanche" is our defensive coordinator. I'm telling you Bea Arthur is next! :)

I'm torn on who's the better choice for us. Briggs or Johnson. I was hoping to get Dansby anyway[/quote]
Dansby would be good, but I don't think the Cards will let him get away....but it is the Cards.

I need to stop calling Blache, "Blanche" too, my bad. :cheeky-sm

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;421722]We definately have stronger depth at receiver, so I'd have to say Lance Briggs. As time goes on, it's looking like LB is becoming an immediate issue, and one that wouldn't be solved by the 2008 draft.

It does look like the CB market is drying up fast. We might be able to chase Trufant, but it looks like Nnamdi is going to be tagged (maybe Al Davis can still accomplish simple procedural tasks), and Samuel's price tag is going to be so ridiculous that only a handful of teams could even fit him in under the cap.

Back to LB though, there is certainly a spot for Briggs on this team. He can play the vastly important WLB position, and Rocky can make the switch to the less athleticly dependant SLB, where he can succeed Marcus.

Of course if we lose both Marcus and Rocky after 2009, that doesn't do a whole lot of good.[/QUOTE]

Andre Dyson might be released, but he's not big-time. I think there are some very good CBs coming out this year, and would prefer to draft one. The only possible exception being Nnamdi.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=ingibbswetrust;421724]I agree that we should be building through the draft (and that we don't need Briggs) but at a position like WR, I really feel this is a trade worth making. I've been struggling with this lately and I keep coming back to the cowboys getting TO and the lions drafting flop after flop at the WR position. The cowboys took a huge gamble on bringing TO to town and it has put their offense over the top. Just look at them without him over the last few games of this season, they were an average offense at best and with him they are 2nd best offense the NFL.

We're mediocore as is on the offensive side of the ball and I really feel if we could have CJ open up the vertical game and take double teams off of Santana it would open up things for Moss, ARE in the slot and cooley over the middle (and of course the run game).

Depending on what we have to give up, I think this is a risk worth taking. Even if we were to draft a WR, that's a huge risk when we could draft a dependable linemen. This would obviously be an expensive trade for us but at least we know what we're getting in return (which we didn't really with B. Lloyd) , which is a bonafide game changing consistent WR for the next 5 years.

That's my vote. HAIL.[/quote]The main point is though that the ability to trade for Chad Johnson directly conflicts with the ability to draft linemen.

A trade makes sense for the Redskins because this is the first year in a long time we won't be able to outbid the opposition on the FA market. With the cap room we have, we can still offer a fair market deal, but another team would find it no issue at all to match or exceed our deal, because they aren't limited by the cap. That's why we have interest in Johnson.

However, that still doesn't mean that we can aquire him cheaply. The price tag the Bengals want is a first and a third, or two seconds. Let's say that we can negotiate a lower price tag: say a second now, and a third next year. Well, we still have to address the following positions in the next two years: CB, C, G, DE, DT, but now we have one fewer first day pick to do it with.

Knowing this franchise, that likely means we neglect the offensive line another year, and our offense declines, despite Johnson's presence. Though we would still be competitive, we've made no net gain in 2008, and are down a 3rd round pick in 2009.

And that's all assuming we negotiate a more reasonable price...not something Danny's exactly known for doing.

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What I don't understand is how can people want CJ when he's so combustible. We've got a young qb with limited experience who is learning yet another system and a first time head coach. That's a challenging situation and we saw how CJ handles not being in a winning situation this past year. I just think it's a bad idea. Great talent, not a great fit on this team. If JG were still coaching, I'd say go for it, he can handle it. But Zorn, who really knows?

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;421715]NE went out and spent money on FA's last year. Yeah they came up one game short but I wouldn't be too upset with 18 wins.[/QUOTE]

Um if your only loss is in the Super Bowl? Not really!!

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[quote=Mattyk72;421715]NE went out and spent money on FA's last year. Yeah they came up one game short but I wouldn't be too upset with 18 wins.[/quote]

Yeah but they already had the pieces in place. We don't. They're already a SB contending team. I don't think we're on that level yet. When and if we get there, that's when you go out and get a Chad Johnson or a Lance Briggs. IMO you get the big FA's when you're a player or two away. I just don't think we're that type of team yet. That's where teams like us and SF don't get it and NE does.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=GTripp0012;421731]The main point is though that the ability to trade for Chad Johnson directly conflicts with the ability to draft linemen.

A trade makes sense for the Redskins because this is the first year in a long time we won't be able to outbid the opposition on the FA market. With the cap room we have, we can still offer a fair market deal, but another team would find it no issue at all to match or exceed our deal, because they aren't limited by the cap. That's why we have interest in Johnson.

However, that still doesn't mean that we can aquire him cheaply. The price tag the Bengals want is a first and a third, or two seconds. Let's say that we can negotiate a lower price tag: say a second now, and a third next year. Well, we still have to address the following positions in the next two years: CB, C, G, DE, DT, but now we have one fewer first day pick to do it with.

Knowing this franchise, that likely means we neglect the offensive line another year, and our offense declines, despite Johnson's presence. Though we would still be competitive, we've made no net gain in 2008, and are down a 3rd round pick in 2009.

And that's all assuming we negotiate a more reasonable price...not something Danny's exactly known for doing.[/quote]

I hope like hell we don't neglect the O-line.

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Mel Kiper just said on ESPN NFL show that it is a strong WR class coming out this year.

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[quote=Defensewins;421801]Mel Kiper just said on ESPN NFL show that it is a strong WR class coming out this year.[/quote]

Well according to WP link that was posted awhile back, they were talking about getting rid of McCardell (Why???) and possibly Caldwell? (I'm not sure. I don't remember) That would leave room to draft a WR. Plus Espy might be back this season, correct?

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if we do pick up johnson who will be our number 3 wr. Are we goin to put el in the slot like wes welker in NE. Id much rather pick up a roy williams for a second round pick. He's bigger then johnson, granted not as fast but, will be more of team player and not cost as much as johnson will. Can someone give me the downside to picking up williams over johnson?

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[quote=WaldSkins;421816]if we do pick up johnson who will be our number 3 wr. Are we goin to put el in the slot like wes welker in NE. Id much rather pick up a roy williams for a second round pick. He's bigger then johnson, granted not as fast but, will be more of team player and not cost as much as johnson will. Can someone give me the downside to picking up williams over johnson?[/quote]

There is no downside but it's been reported that Detroit is not interested in trading him unless they get an "overwhelming" offer for him.

And my guess is that ARE would be the slot receiver.

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the detroit press reported that he was available for a second round pick, i dont have the link to attach but the link can be found on one of these 21 pages.

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and yea johnson is not doubt a elite receiver, but why do the redskins need to reward a player who would like to come to this team just for the big pay day. Why do we need to blow up our payroll for this one player?

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[quote=WaldSkins;421820]the detroit press reported that he was available for a second round pick, i dont have the link to attach but the link can be found on one of these 21 pages.[/quote]
If we could get Roy Williams for a 2nd round pick, I think that's a no-brainer. But I'd need to see the link. Everything I've seen sounds like they are looking for a major deal to trade him.

[URL="http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2008/02/dont_expect_roy_williams_to_be.html"]Don't expect Roy Williams to be traded - Detroit Lions: News, Blogs, Photos, Audio, Schedule & Stats - MLive.com[/URL]

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I voted no, only because of the potential attitude disruptions and the overpaid price the skins are likely to pay....I do agree that someone like him would be a good catch

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Marvin Lewis maintains the Bengals have no intention of trading CJ. That he's still under contract to the team.

What is the contract status of CJ, is still under contract with the Bengals or is he about to become an URFA? I'm curious that any talks of trade for him at this time is/or is not borderline flirting with the tampering rule

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CJ is under contract until 2011

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It takes two to make a trade.
Washington may want to trade for CJ, but the Bengals want nothing to do with it. The Benglas have strongly denied anything regarding trading CJ. And they have stated that Johnson is under contract with them until 2011, and will remain under contract. Marvin Lewis has stated publicly that Johnson will NOT be traded, that he will play in Cincy next season.

If the Bengals trade CJ, the Bengals will take an IMMEDIATE 8 mill dollar hit against their cap.

Bengals will NOT trade Ocho-Cinco. He will be in a Bengals uniform next season.

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[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;421847]It takes two to make a trade.
Washington may want to trade for CJ, but the Bengals want nothing to do with it. The Benglas have strongly denied anything regarding trading CJ. And they have stated that Johnson is under contract with them until 2011, and will remain under contract. Marvin Lewis has stated publicly that Johnson will NOT be traded, that he will play in Cincy next season.

If the Bengals trade CJ, the Bengals will take an IMMEDIATE 8 mill dollar hit against their cap.

Bengals will NOT trade Ocho-Cinco. He will be in a Bengals uniform next season.[/QUOTE]


Hurts (given the Avatar) but I've gotta agree. the Washington Post reports that the Redskins are interested but they didnt say anything about Cincy being interested.

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[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;421847]It takes two to make a trade.
Washington may want to trade for CJ, but the Bengals want nothing to do with it. The Benglas have strongly denied anything regarding trading CJ. And they have stated that Johnson is under contract with them until 2011, and will remain under contract. Marvin Lewis has stated publicly that Johnson will NOT be traded, that he will play in Cincy next season.

If the Bengals trade CJ, the Bengals will take an IMMEDIATE 8 mill dollar hit against their cap.

Bengals will NOT trade Ocho-Cinco. He will be in a Bengals uniform next season.[/QUOTE]


All I want to know is: How you can begin talking contract with a player already under contract with another team? League rules do not permit that.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;421847]It takes two to make a trade.
Washington may want to trade for CJ, but the Bengals want nothing to do with it. The Benglas have strongly denied anything regarding trading CJ. And they have stated that Johnson is under contract with them until 2011, and will remain under contract. Marvin Lewis has stated publicly that Johnson will NOT be traded, that he will play in Cincy next season.

If the Bengals trade CJ, the Bengals will take an IMMEDIATE 8 mill dollar hit against their cap.

Bengals will NOT trade Ocho-Cinco. He will be in a Bengals uniform next season.[/quote]

hope you're right sand, but

1) don't put too much stock into what the bengals brass is saying, that's part of postering to gian leverage if they do deal him,
2) If I'm correct, can't a team agree to take on the cap hit in a trade? I know it's all subject to the individual deal, but I recall us & the Jets negotiating this when we traded coles for Moss. Ditto last year when we sent Arch to the Bears, they took some of the cap hit/bonus.

If you're right that it's an 8mil cap hit (what's yo source?) that might even be too much for the danny & his crack team of capologists to manoever around.

What about this scenario, CJ acts a fool during the season & the Bengals choose to deal him rather than keyshawn him. Wonder what the price would be then?

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Look like Dallas is already sweating at just the mention of us getting him, lol I love it. Anyway it sounds like CJ is pretty intent on wanting a trade, so if he wants out that badly I'm sure he can cook up some way of getting out of cincy. Wasn't it Briggs who vowed not to play in Chicago if he wasn't traded last year, and yes he did end up staying and playing. But I think CJ is the type that doesn't bluff. I hope we do get him, then we'll finally have a solid #2 in Moss. But I wonder if this pisses Moss off????