Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

I guess it goes back to how you want to spin it....Welker was #11 on the list. with only 1,175 yrds total. He averaged only 10.5 yrds per catch. Not as good as CJ. and he had the same # of TD's.

Your right about Palmer I should not have said that he had 100 more att, and 100 more comp. but his QB rating is only 60.4% and Campbells is 60%. I'm trying to put a better spin on it but I can't. He was ranked #5 and Campbell was ranked #16 Sorry.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=Skinny Tee;441386][b]Thank God that the Bengals can save us from ourselves.[/b]

How dopey is it to come this far with all your picks just to hand them out at the last second. So much for draft disicipline.

This annoys me and doesn't bode well for who they think is going to be available with the 21st pick in the draft. One week before the draft they want to heave their draft stratedy out the window, I'm annoyed.[/QUOTE]

That is the perfect comment!

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;441994]I didn't "overlook" his DUI. If you go back and read what I posted, I talked about Allen's mistakes and how he admitted what he did was stupid. Since that time, he's been a model citizen and an excellent player. [/quote]

And then Allen did it again. It's been less than a year, so it's hard to say his character is "repaired" just because he said sorry. I think Pacman Jones said he was sorry, too.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets;442026]And then Allen did it again. It's been less than a year, so it's hard to say his character is "repaired" just because he said sorry. I think Pacman Jones said he was sorry, too.[/QUOTE]

Pacman has NEVER taken responsibility for his actions. Maybe the Allen example wasn't the best one to use. My point is, if we really want to get rid of draft picks the way we are, we need to focus on the lines first -- a couple of our most glaring weaknesses -- then the skill positions. As I said before, having Chad won't matter if we can't keep Campbell upright or rush the passer consistently.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets;442026]And then Allen did it again. It's been less than a year, so it's hard to say his character is "repaired" just because he said sorry. [b]I think Pacman Jones said he was sorry, too.[/b][/QUOTE]


Yeah but in all fairness, when Pacman said it, his acting was worse than his wrestling career.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;442032]Pacman has NEVER taken responsibility for his actions. Maybe the Allen example wasn't the best one to use. My point is, if we really want to get rid of draft picks the way we are, we need to focus on the lines first -- a couple of our most glaring weaknesses -- then the skill positions. As I said before, having Chad won't matter if we can't keep Campbell upright or rush the passer consistently.[/quote]

Actually, you're right - I just figured with 8 arrests in 19 months he would have had at least one apology.
[url=http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080418/OPINION02/80417056/1008/OPINION01]The NFL can do without Pacman Jones | www.tennessean.com | The Tennessean[/url]

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=KB24;442032]Pacman has NEVER taken responsibility for his actions. Maybe the Allen example wasn't the best one to use. My point is, if we really want to get rid of draft picks the way we are, we need to focus on the lines first -- a couple of our most glaring weaknesses -- then the skill positions. As I said before, having Chad won't matter if we can't keep Campbell upright or rush the passer consistently.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think that we can't address our line needs if we trade for Chad Johnson? You don't think we could get a DE in the 2nd round, two OLs in the 3rd?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Why does trading one pick this year mean we can't address our needs? :doh:

We will likely be drafting a WR anyway, and what rookie WR out there would be able to give us the kind of production that someone like Johnson could give us?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Skill positions also reduce the workload of the O-line. If the D has to respect two receivers plus possibly another coming off the line (TE) and a fourth checkdown option, they can't stack the box every single play.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Good point. It relieves the entire O in general to have another legit threat

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

It looks like we are going to have to wait until hell freezes over to have CJ/Bolden in a Skins uniform.


Until then here's a constructive question, who are we going to select with our first round pick and next year's third?...I'd like some O/D lineman.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;442040]Why does trading one pick this year mean we can't address our needs? :doh:

We will likely be drafting a WR anyway, and what rookie WR out there would be able to give us the kind of production that someone like Johnson could give us?[/QUOTE]

We here this same argument every time we decide to sign or trade for a WR, it's a never ending cycle. Moss and EL can no longer catch a ball so we need Chad? And Lloyd is gone, 3 WR's we had to have and now we need to get CJ, nobody ever stops to think that it could very well be the team concept and players around the skill players which inhibits their play, kind of ironic that Moss and El both started to get open as soon as Collins took over?

I will say this, Zorns new offensive approach better click with Campbell, if it does we wont need Chad, if it doesn't then all the Chads in the world ain't gonna help our offense. The west coast offense has had a ton of success without big name WR's, we have to many needs for this trade to make sense, we can turn that #1 pick into possibly 2 or 3 more picks by trading back into the second round, Chad Johnson is not the be all and end all when it comes to wide outs!

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;442040]Why does trading one pick this year mean we can't address our needs? :doh:

We will likely be drafting a WR anyway, and what rookie WR out there would be able to give us the kind of production that someone like Johnson could give us?[/QUOTE]

I'd rather see us use our picks to gain depth at key areas and build a foundation where we have guys ready to go should we lose a starter or two to injury. Right now, because we focus so much on names, when a guy goes down, there's hardly anyone on the roster to fill the position and we have to rely on the waiver wire.

[QUOTE=onlydarksets;442043]Skill positions also reduce the workload of the O-line. If the D has to respect two receivers plus possibly another coming off the line (TE) and a fourth checkdown option, they can't stack the box every single play.[/QUOTE]

But, if that o-line isn't blocking well to begin with, it would negate any effective running game and prevent JC from having time to even get to that fourth checkdown option. We need to groom our own talent instead of going after players in their '30s.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

My problem with trading so much for Chad Johnson is the opportunity we're giving up to pay a 1st round pick only about $1.0 million per year. Players picked in the latter half of the first round make 1-2 million per season. We're rumored to be ready to pay Chad Johnson $21 million guaranteed. The guy's already 30, and I don't like the labor strife that appears to be bearing down on the league.

Right now, you have to say that there's a greater than 50% chance there will be a lockout/strike of some kind within the next few years, possibly involving the voiding of the current CBA, which would push the league into one last uncapped season. In that scenario, all signing bonus money would accelerate and hit your cap that season.

Given this likely scenario, I don't like the idea of adding a big bonus to the payroll. We'd be setting ourselves up for a total dismantling of the team should a last uncapped season come to fruition.

Given that we don't have tons of cap space the next few seasons, and a lot of bonus money is tied up in Cooley, Portis, and numerous others, I'd relish the opportunity to pay our 1st round pick only $1-2 million per season.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

So again, how does losing one pick this year take away from our ability to fill needs? There would still be 8 picks on the board.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;442077]I'd rather see us use our picks to gain depth at key areas and build a foundation where we have guys ready to go should we lose a starter or two to injury. Right now, because we focus so much on names, when a guy goes down, there's hardly anyone on the roster to fill the position and we have to rely on the waiver wire. [/quote]

A direct result of that this past season was that we were using Lorenzo Alexander as a pulling guard late in the season because he was the most effective pulling blocker we had on the roster.

Lorenzo Alexander is an undrafted rookie Defensive Tackle and we used him to fill a hole in our offense. The guy is an undrafted rookie that plays defense and he was the best product that we came up with to pull block on offense?

The depth on both sides of the ball is pathetic.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;442082]So again, how does losing one pick this year take away from our ability to fill needs? There would still be 8 picks on the board.[/quote]

The picks wouldn't be the problem. The cap could be a disastrous problem if the labor strife continues. And that's not JLC playing Chicken Little with the cap numbers, that's one of your resident cap nerds saying that.

We should keep the pick and pay that 1st rounder his market value. Or trade down. We'd gain talent for the long haul and help keep ourselves out of cap trouble in a potential uncapped season.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Schneed10;442081]My problem with trading so much for Chad Johnson is the opportunity we're giving up to pay a 1st round pick only about $1.0 million per year. Players picked in the latter half of the first round make 1-2 million per season. We're rumored to be ready to pay Chad Johnson $21 million guaranteed. The guy's already 30, and I don't like the labor strife that appears to be bearing down on the league.

Right now, you have to say that there's a greater than 50% chance there will be a lockout/strike of some kind within the next few years, possibly involving the voiding of the current CBA, which would push the league into one last uncapped season. In that scenario, all signing bonus money would accelerate and hit your cap that season.

Given this likely scenario, I don't like the idea of adding a big bonus to the payroll. We'd be setting ourselves up for a total dismantling of the team should a last uncapped season come to fruition.

Given that we don't have tons of cap space the next few seasons, and a lot of bonus money is tied up in Cooley, Portis, and numerous others, I'd relish the opportunity to pay our 1st round pick only $1-2 million per season.[/quote]

See, I can live with this logic. Good post.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;442082]So again, how does losing one pick this year take away from our ability to fill needs? There would still be 8 picks on the board.[/quote]

Well first of all it's our top pick and if CJ hits his normal numbers than it would be a top pick next year. Not worth it.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=skinsfan69;442090]Well first of all it's our top pick and if CJ hits his normal number than it would be a top pick next year. Not worth it.[/quote]

We don't even know at this point what would escalate that 3rd rounder to a 1st. But it's safe to assume it would have to be some pretty significant triggers, so let's not act like two #1's would be a foregone conclusion.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;442091]We don't even know at this point what would escalate that 3rd rounder to a 1st. But it's safe to assume it would have to be some pretty significant triggers, so let's not act like two #1's would be a foregone conclusion.[/quote]

You know what's funny is that one of the triggers I believe rely on the Redskins having a Super Bowl year, e.g: hosting the NFC Championship game. If the Redskins are one player away from Super Bowl glory, like some would have you believe, and CJ is that player why wouldn't it be foreseeable that we would hit one of those tiggers.

You know that CJ is worth the compensation but not enough that you think that CJ will help Redskins to be a Super Bowl contender?

You're already agreeing that CJ is not going to help the Redskins to a Super Bowl contending run by counting out the possibility that next years number one pick is going to be safe.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Skinny Tee;442084]A direct result of that this past season was that we were using Lorenzo Alexander as a pulling guard late in the season because he was the most effective pulling blocker we had on the roster.

Lorenzo Alexander is an undrafted rookie Defensive Tackle and we used him to fill a hole in our offense. The guy is an undrafted rookie that plays defense and he was the best product that we came up with to pull block on offense?

The depth on both sides of the ball is pathetic.[/QUOTE]

And to piggyback on that, there were times where we had to use Chris Cooley as an extra blocker -- because the line was ineffective -- instead of getting him out into the secondary where he needs to be.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;442087]See, I can live with this logic. Good post.[/QUOTE]

I agree, that's the only reason I can see to not give up one pick.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=KB24;442100]And to piggyback on that, there were times where we had to use Chris Cooley as an extra blocker -- because the line was ineffective -- instead of getting him out into the secondary where he needs to be.[/QUOTE]

So the answer to that problem would be to select a backup [B]first round [/B]offensive lineman?! What a waste of a first round pick!

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=jdlea;442108]So the answer to that problem would be to select a backup [B]first round [/B]offensive lineman?! What a waste of a first round pick![/quote]

If we could get Albert, Chris Williams or Jeff Otah in the 1st, we'd be investing in a future franchise left tackle, something that is highly valued by teams. The tuna just signed one w/the 1st overall pick.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;442111]If we could get Albert, Chris Williams or Jeff Otah in the 1st, we'd be investing in a future franchise left tackle, something that is highly valued by teams. The tuna just signed one w/the 1st overall pick.[/QUOTE]

Not a one of them will fall to the 21st pick. We could possibly get Gosder Cherilus, but drafting a tackle to sit is a waste. A first round pick should be able to step in and make an impact, unless they're a QB. AND Jake Long is gonna play in Week 1.

Furthermore: If we're going to sit a tackle that we selected in the first round, why don't we get one in the 2nd or 3rd and let him develop? Or let Heyer develop?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=jdlea;442113]Not a one of them will fall to the 21st pick. We could possibly get Gosder Cherilus, but drafting a tackle to sit is a waste. A first round pick should be able to step in and make an impact, unless they're a QB. AND Jake Long is gonna play in Week 1.

Furthermore: If we're going to sit a tackle that we selected in the first round, why don't we get one in the 2nd or 3rd and let him develop? Or let Heyer develop?[/quote]

Our first round might not make an impact this year but a significant impact the next and the following years. The draft isn't so much who can play now but who you can develop for later.

That's why it's imperative that we get those young Redskins now and develop them into our system...so we don't have to wait any longer to be a competitive team.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Not talking about the cap ramifications (I agree with Schneeds assessment), the trade absolutely makes sense. We would get first round talent for a first round pick. So the question is whether or not adding a third round pick is appropriate for a guarantee of attaining a pro-bowl caliber player with your first round pick.



I'll take that all day long.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Dan Snyder has been too quiet for too long... He can't resist but cough some money to bring him into DC.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;442108]So the answer to that problem would be to select a backup [B]first round [/B]offensive lineman?! What a waste of a first round pick![/QUOTE]

You could go with a guard who could spell Kendall and his arthritic knees or Thomas when he has his annual season-ending injury. Or you could get a pass-rusher to complement Andre Carter and take pressure off an offensive unit whose line has those age and injury problems with only one back-up.

[QUOTE=GoSkins!;442124]Not talking about the cap ramifications (I agree with Schneeds assessment), the trade absolutely makes sense. We would get first round talent for a first round pick. So the question is whether or not adding a third round pick is appropriate for a guarantee of attaining a pro-bowl caliber player with your first round pick.



I'll take that all day long.[/QUOTE]

What's the point of bringing in an elite wide receiver if the offense can neither run the ball nor give JC adequate protection when needed?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;442108]So the answer to that problem would be to select a backup [B]first round [/B]offensive lineman?! What a waste of a first round pick![/QUOTE]

I'd venture to guess that less than 20% of late 1st round draft picks make a meaningful impact in their rookie seasons. If you want an impact rookie with the 21st pick, be prepared to be disappointed.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

I've got to ask supporters of the trade offer for CJ a few questions. What are the chances that Chad would become a major de-stabilizing locker room force if he doesn't get enough balls thrown his way or we struggle to win games in 2008? Had Brandon Lloyd been put up Chad Johnson-like numbers during his tenture in D.C., would you have wanted him around?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Not exactly sure what you're askin. Are you asking if Brandon Lloyd's actions would have been acceptable if he put up numbers like Chad Johnson?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;442166]Not exactly sure what you're askin. Are you asking if Brandon Lloyd's actions would have been acceptable if he put up numbers like Chad Johnson?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

First, do you think Chad Johnson would become a locker room problem if: (a) the Redskins do not win a lot of games in 2008; or (b) Campbell doesn't throw the ball Chad's way 5-6 times per game?

Second, would you have wanted the Redskins to retain Brandon Lloyd had he been a Pro Bowl caliber wideout?

Fairly or not, I was implying that Chad Johnson is a highly productive version of Brandon Lloyd. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted the Redskins to retain Brandon Lloyd even if he was putting up T.O. type numbers.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Chad Johnson would be a nightmare for a brand new coach and a developing QB. Stick with the draft.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;442168]Sorry, I should have been more clear.

First, do you think Chad Johnson would become a locker room problem if: (a) the Redskins do not win a lot of games in 2008; or (b) Campbell doesn't throw the ball Chad's way 5-6 times per game?

Second, would you have wanted the Redskins to retain Brandon Lloyd had he been a Pro Bowl caliber wideout?

Fairly or not, I was implying that Chad Johnson is a highly productive version of Brandon Lloyd. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted the Redskins to retain Brandon Lloyd even if he was putting up T.O. type numbers.[/QUOTE]

I don't know the answer to your first question. I mean this offseason is really the first we've heard of Chad Johnson being a divisive presence in the locker room. And a lot of that is based off a false claim of a fight that never took place. But if he's unhappy, I don't doubt he'll voice his displeasure. Just like many other stars (even on our team).

As for part 2 to your question. Brandon Lloyd reportedly would yell at the administrative and personal assistants at Redskins Park, for no reason. I don't know that CJ does that. But apart from that, if Brandon Lloyd could produce the way Chad Johnson has then yes I could definitely be happy with that. That's why we brought him here, to produce on the field. I mean if either one had real issues (see: PacMan Jones) then no I wouldn't want either one.

If he's so disruptive don't you think the Bengals would be a bit more willing to let him go? I think his production trumps his disruption.

But I'm not, to be clear, an adamant supporter of a trade for Chad Johnson. I think it has to be the right deal. I feel that the current deal is pretty fair. I wouldn't mind getting an extra pick from them, but the deal as it is isn't awful. If the Redskins were to trade their 1st and 2nd this year, that'd be a different story.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Chad Johnson won't be a locker room problem anywhere outside of Cincy. But trading two picks for one guy tells me 1) The Skins have an awful lot of confidence in Jim Zorn and 2) all the talk about learning was just that, talk.

This smells like a panic move, since the Giants won the SB and we beat the Giants then we can win the SB. But the transitive property works in math, not football.

Best move in the end, keep the picks and find a big body in the draft. Contrary to popular opinion, solid guys can be found in the later rounds too. Overpaying for Chad Johnson is so 2003 Dan Snyder.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;442173]I don't know the answer to your first question. I mean this offseason is really the first we've heard of Chad Johnson being a divisive presence in the locker room. And a lot of that is based off a false claim of a fight that never took place. But if he's unhappy, I don't doubt he'll voice his displeasure. Just like many other stars (even on our team).[/QUOTE]

This is the first offseason in which I've heard that Chad was a locker room problem. But, for several seasons Chad has shown that he is all too often willing to prop himself up at the expense of his team. Moreover, ESPN Radio just aired a segment in which a Bengals beat reporter basically said that the team has been dealing with Chad's "emotional issues" for quite some time, but the team has been concealing such problems. That same reporter also said that most players he's talked to acknowledge that there was some "locker room incident" involving Chad, but none would specify what occurred. The only player that has spoken to the issue ([URL="http://larrybrownsports.com/football/shaun-smith-confirms-chad-johnson-punched-marvin-lewis/"]Shaun Smith[/URL]) acknowledged that Chad tried to attack Hue Jackson and punched Marvin Lewis. Boomer Esiason [URL="http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412642.html"]reported[/URL] that Chad got into a physical altercation with coaches. I'm not saying that Chad undoubtedly hit a coach.....but where there is smoke.

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;442173]If he's so disruptive don't you think the Bengals would be a bit more willing to let him go? I think his production trumps his disruption.[/QUOTE]

I think the Bengals believe his production trumps his disruption, but aren't they a shining example as to why character matters? Their team is in tatters, their locker room appears divided, and they are reaping what they have sown. True, Chad hasn't been in trouble with the law. But, I think character evaluations should be based on more than one's rap sheet.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;442177]This is the first offseason in which I've heard that Chad was a locker room problem. But, for several seasons Chad has shown that he is all too often willing to prop himself up at the expense of his team. Moreover, ESPN Radio just aired a segment in which a Bengals beat reporter basically said that the team has been dealing with Chad's "emotional issues" for quite some time, but the team has been concealing such problems. That same reporter also said that most players he's talked to acknowledge that there was some "locker room incident" involving Chad, but none would specify what occurred. The only player that has spoken to the issue ([URL="http://larrybrownsports.com/football/shaun-smith-confirms-chad-johnson-punched-marvin-lewis/"]Shaun Smith[/URL]) acknowledged that Chad tried to attack Hue Jackson and punched Marvin Lewis. Boomer Esiason [URL="http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412642.html"]reported[/URL] that Chad got into a physical altercation with coaches. I'm not saying that Chad undoubtedly hit a coach.....but where there is smoke.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough on the ESPN Radio part. Shaun Smith has on multiple occassions thrown teammates (past and present) under the bus. I have complete disregard for anything he says quite honestly. I think Esiason is being a little loose with the term "altercation." I believe what happened is what Hue Jackson and Chad Johnson have said, that Chad Johnson got "emotional" and Hue Jackson restrained him to calm him down. The actual events none of us know. But what shouldn't be overlooked is that Chad Johnson has publicly apologized for creating a stir during that halftime and said it was inappropriate. I know some people here are all gung-ho about pointing out that Jared Allen apologized for his multiple DUIs and league suspension. So let's not dismiss that CJ apologized for "acting up" in a locker room.

[QUOTE]I think the Bengals believe his production trumps his disruption, but aren't they a shining example as to why character matters? Their team is in tatters, their locker room appears divided, and they are reaping what they have sown. True, Chad hasn't been in trouble with the law. But, I think character evaluations should be based on more than one's rap sheet.[/QUOTE]

Good points. But it also adds to my point that Johnson wants out of there because the team culture is a mess.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Warren85Ellard;442171]Chad Johnson would be a nightmare for a brand new coach and a developing QB. Stick with the draft.[/QUOTE]

Why would he be a nightmare?