Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

I have the cure for AIDS. Anyone with common sense knows what it is. It doesn't cost any money, there isn't a need for a march, or any government funding or research.

(1) Get married

(2) Don't cheat

(3) Don't shoot dope

(4) Stay away from hospitals and blood donations. (This is extreme but they do eff up every once in awhile)

If you follow those rules, you'll be AIDS (and most other diseases) free. Homosexuals don't really get this?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=SmootSmack;718040]Aren't these numbers a bit skewed by the fact that homesexuals, as you say, make up about 2% of the population?[/quote]

SmootSmack, they are not skewed.(And what is up with the blaming the suicides of homosexuals on the public who disagree with their orientation? Pass the buck much? Pretty Lame. They made their bed, lay in it.) The point is that even tho they only make up that % of the population, they are still responsible for over 53% of the HIV/AIDS infections and over 1/3 of the child molestation charges in the country.

And where is all these comments coming from that I dont like them ogling me? Never said I had a problem with that, they can do what they want. But just dont expect my tax dollars to go to your healthcare when your sexual orientation had everything to do with you contracting several diseases, some of which are debilitating and very costly to treat. I've treated plenty of people with HIV/AID in nursing homes, most of the in their 40's, early 50's, all of them gay. That is not just a coincidence.

And I didn't even notice that the life expectancy of a homsexual is 20 years shorter than that of a heterosexual. Fairly suprising fact..........didn't expect it to be that drastic. But when over 75% of homosexuals say they have over 150+ sexual partners in their lifetime, well, it just seems like with all this information out there, they are asking for it. I feel not one bit of sorrow for any homosexual who contracts these diseases. They did bring it on themselves. Sorry, but the truth hurts.

And yes, it is getting ugly. These statistics are very ugly. But they are accurate, and that is sad.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=SmootSmack;718049]America doesn't people like [url=http://www.ct.gov/dcf/lib/dcf/wmv/pdf/gay_military_hero.pdf]this[/url] defending our right to treat him like less than a human being![/quote]

When was the last time the military won a war? Hero? What is he fighting for? Freedom? The military is a worthless institution now. I left when they started putting in women. Oh I'm sorry! Am I being politically incorrect? I don't like taking showers with homosexuals. If I wanted to take orders from a woman I'd get married. So you can keep the military. A lot of good that military did us on 9/11. They couldn't ever stop a bunch of terrorist with box cutters.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=12thMan;718042]So Mech, I take it that you don't any gay people?[/quote]

12th, no, I dont any gay people..........


If you were asking if I know any gay people, the answer is, of course. I have 2 gay guys whom I call friends. But as friends, they also know that I completely disagree with their lifestyle choices, and we leave it at that.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

One can only hope that some of you guys end up with a gay child. Oh man that sure would be a bitch.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

If I ever ended up with a homosexual child, god forbid, but if it did happen, I would love my child nonetheless. I would pray for my child, but my love would not waver. I would worry SO MUCH about their safety and well being, knowing the risks, but my love for them would not be afftected one bit. I truly dont have a problem with homosexual people, I just do not think we should allow them to legally enter an institution which has, since the dawn of history, has been for a man and woman. I also have a problem with serving in the army with homosexuals, knowing their predisposition to STD's and communicable diseases.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mechanix544;718057]SmootSmack, they are not skewed.(And what is up with the blaming the suicides of homosexuals on the public who disagree with their orientation? Pass the buck much? Pretty Lame. They made their bed, lay in it.) The point is that even tho they only make up that % of the population, they are still responsible for over 53% of the HIV/AIDS infections and over 1/3 of the child molestation charges in the country.[/quote]

Not blaming the public, just saying they don't make it any easier. As for them making the bed. Did they make it or was it made for them, as dmek pointed out.

[quote]And where is all these comments coming from that I dont like them ogling me? Never said I had a problem with that, they can do what they want. But just dont expect my tax dollars to go to your healthcare when your sexual orientation had everything to do with you contracting several diseases, some of which are debilitating and very costly to treat. I've treated plenty of people with HIV/AID in nursing homes, most of the in their 40's, early 50's, all of them gay. That is not just a coincidence.[/quote]

I never referred to you, so don't give yourself so much credit

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mechanix544;718060]12th, no, I dont any gay people..........


If you were asking if I know any gay people, the answer is, of course. I have 2 gay guys whom I call friends. But as friends, they also know that I completely disagree with their lifestyle choices, and we leave it at that.[/quote]

They must be great friends for you guys to put up with each other

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=SmootSmack;718067]Not blaming the public, just saying they don't make it any easier. As for them making the bed. Did they make it or was it made for them, as dmek pointed out. <---- Again, passing the buck and deflecting responsibility. Noone forces you to have hundreds of gay sex partners and orgies. Noone forces you to live a life that is totally free of responsibility of and full of false entitlement. Drugs, underage sex, STD's, suicide and mental illness......sorry, all PAR for the course for homosexuals. Its a self destructive lifestyle that my government should not and hopefully WILL NOT accept and okay.



I never referred to you, so don't give yourself so much credit[/quote]

Oh, well, Im just gonna have to apologize for that one. So much for my skewed views of self importance and delusions of grandeur when referring to your comments about oogling gays.Trust me, I'll gladly pass along that credit.
Would you like it?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk;718063]One can only hope that some of you guys end up with a gay child. Oh man that sure would be a bitch.[/quote]

I'm with you on that...a gay son would be irony rich.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mechanix544;718066]If I ever ended up with a homosexual child, god forbid, but if it did happen, I would love my child nonetheless. I would pray for my child, but my love would not waver. I would worry SO MUCH about their safety and well being, knowing the risks, but my love for them would not be afftected one bit. I truly dont have a problem with homosexual people, I just do not think we should allow them to legally enter an institution which has, since the dawn of history, has been for a man and woman. [B]I also have a problem with serving in the army with homosexuals, knowing their predisposition to STD's and communicable diseases.[/B][/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure heterosexuals are also at risk to communicable diseases and STDs.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

It's funny that with issues like homosexuality and drugs, social conservatives lose their capacity for logic and rational thought.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk;717925]What would you do if you had a gay child, or if you found out a close friend or relative was gay?

And to the point in bold, there are plenty more jerkoff hetero guys out there setting bad examples of how a man should act. I would probably be more concerned about that if you ask me, because if your child isn't gay, a gay person isn't likely to have much of a direct influence on them. He or she is going to be influenced by people they can relate to.

[B]And what channels are you watching? I really can't recall the last time I turned on the TV to see a gay guy 'prancing around' setting bad examples[/B].[/quote]

As far as what channels, my wife is a Bravo and HGTV addict. So maybe my opinion is a little skewed. ;-)

As far as having a gay child, personally I have never met a "gay child" so much like leprechauns and jesus, I'm not sure they exist. (that comment should end any reasonable discussion :FIREdevil) That said, I don't know how I would handle it, nor does anyone else who's not been in that situation. I would work through it to the best of my abilities, like any other challenge in life. Regarding close friends or relatives coming out of the closet, it would depend entirely upon them. If they're acting like any other normal human being and just happen to be gay, then no big deal. Conversely, if they insisted on gettin' fabulous out in the open I would be annoyed and stop hanging around them. The same is true if a straight friend/relative started exhibiting any other behavior that I can't stand. If they're entitled to their personal preference, then so am I.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;717944]This is a good post, but I will never understand those who would shelter their kids from being educated about the world -- all parts of it, good and bad -- out of fear they may some day grow up to make their own decisions and be influenced by what they learned.[/quote]

It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk;717992]Of course homosexuality exists in the Amish, homosexuality is universal. You don't see them because they are booted out or they're not open about it for fear of getting booted. I'm guessing there are plenty of in the closet Amish.[/quote]

Living here in Amish country, you can always spot the gay ones. They're the ones with sequins on their quilts. :silly:

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;718121]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure heterosexuals are also at risk to communicable diseases and STDs.[/quote]

Nope heterosexuals are doing things the way nature intended. Therefore they never get exposed to STD's.

[quote=Beemnseven;718122]It's funny that with issues like homosexuality and drugs, social conservatives lose their capacity for logic and rational thought.[/quote]

But they certainly love sex, lol.
[IMG]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:svKzXPSXVraijM:http://more4u.xaapa.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/limbo.jpg&t=1[/IMG]

Again for the record since, we have new people here, I'm a moderate. Ironically though I probably make fun of conservatives more often as neocon's are typically more likely to lean towards the Mel Gibson side of absurdity.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;718130]It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.[/quote]

You don't think that fear and ignorance is part of the equation here when talking about those on the extreme side against gay marriage?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;718125]As far as what channels, my wife is a Bravo and HGTV addict. So maybe my opinion is a little skewed. ;-)

As far as having a gay child, personally I have never met a "gay child" so much like leprechauns and jesus, I'm not sure they exist. (that comment should end any reasonable discussion :FIREdevil) That said, I don't know how I would handle it, nor does anyone else who's not been in that situation. I would work through it to the best of my abilities, like any other challenge in life. Regarding close friends or relatives coming out of the closet, it would depend entirely upon them. If they're acting like any other normal human being and just happen to be gay, then no big deal. Conversely, if they insisted on gettin' fabulous out in the open I would be annoyed and stop hanging around them. The same is true if a straight friend/relative started exhibiting any other behavior that I can't stand. If they're entitled to their personal preference, then so am I.[/quote]

HGTV and Bravo, yep that would explain that ;)

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;717727]I didn't make them. It's not my part to figure out why they're effed up. I am of the opinion that many of them were sexually abused as children, some of it's a choice, and some were born sexually retarded. I don't know? You'll have to ask God.

No, you have reached the point to where you think two perverts sodomozing each other is normal. They don't call themselves queer (AKA strange) because they think they're normal. Why should I? If you can look at Dennis Rodman and think he's normal then well, I guess we've crossed over into the Twilight Zone.

We in Virginia have made it law that we will not recognize another state's marriage licenses for two perverts. If you don't like it, don't move here.[/quote]
gay people are perverts the same as blacks are the n-word and so on... your stone age beliefs may actually agree with that though.. the unjustified hate of a group is pretty disgusting, still afraid you might catch the gay or something?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mechanix544;717733]Here Here. This whole PC wave sweeping the nation is getting out of control. So, because two gay guys want cheaper auto insurance and tax breaks, we should legally recognize them as a married couple? Sorry, No way. Marriage is and should be between a man and a woman. Nature says it works that way, and almost every religion says it is blasphemy. So we should cater to them because they are different? Sorry, No way. Lead your life the way you want, but when it comes to the general public recognizing your homo love and okaying it essencially, that is where the buck should stop. Its almost as sick as letting gays in the military............[/quote]
wow.. leave the farm much? marriage has been around a lot longer than insurance (and its breaks).. so do believe that two gay people who think that they're in love are just fooling themselves? if being gay is a choice so is being straight.. meaning you could be gay too, you just choose to like women, better go wash it off real quick..

homosexuality has been around longer than the new testament and what does religion really have to do with it? religion is personal and so is marriage.. lets impose religion on people too.. or is THAT too commie?

do you feel that every couple MUST procreate? do you mind if a heterosexual couple doesn't bear children?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk;717872]Teaching kids acceptance is so overrated anyway[/quote]

agreed.. overstated as well.. that is part of the PC horseshit.. that and "criss-cross applesauce" .. choosing to accept or support (as I do being a contributing member of HRC, though not gay myself) isn't part of that, it's part of realizing that the world is bigger than yourself and recognizing the diversity of the people around you.. a lot of people aren't used to imagining that there are those not like them and that it doesn't make those people evil or less deserving of something that many others get to practice

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;717899]Question...would any of you who don't like the idea of gay marriage vote against a proposition similar to prop 8 if it were on your state ballet?[/quote]
it was ridiculous how many in VA thought that it was a ban it vs make it legal vote

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;717957]I think the problem most parents have is that they don't want their children taught about controversial subjects by someone other than them, especially for the introduction to the topic (sex ed. and things that may counter a family's religous teaching). The other issue is when subjects are taught in public school, obviously the sex ed for 5 yr. olds is ridiculous, same as HS juniors/seniors not being made aware of contraception.

Having a 17 yr. old and being involved in coaching from 6yrs old. into HS, I can tell you one thing is for sure. Normal, rational folks from all walks of life can quickly go completely bat-shit crazy over something to do with their kids.[/quote]
a lot of parents don't talk about nearly ANYTHING societal or cultural with their kids

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;717978]Let me ask a question. Are there homosexuals in the Omish community? I don't see the Omish men wearing dresses and holding hands with each other. I don't see the Omish starting any wars either. I think we could learn a lot from their example.[/quote]

omish? lol..

the gay and wars.. everyone turn off your electricity!

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

i[quote=Trample the Elderly;717997]That sounds good to me. I agree with them then. People and their communities should have the right to decide what is right and wrong within their own community.[/quote]
America isn't a community though.. neither is VA

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

sorry guys!

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk;718150]You don't think that fear and ignorance is part of the equation here when talking about those on the extreme side against gay marriage?[/quote]

Oh, I misunderstood you, thought you were referring to me for some reason... no doubt ignorance and fear play a big role for extremists of any type, not just pertaining to this issue.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=tryfuhl;718160]it was ridiculous how many in VA thought that it was a ban it vs make it legal vote[/quote]

What is even more ridiculous is the cowardis displayed in answering this question.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=djnemo65;496709]Good for Steve Young for doing the right thing. I heard David Frum (the axis of evil guy, who is actually really impressive) talking about this issue recently; he said that all you have to do is look at polling data for people under 40 to see where we are headed in this country with respect to this issue.

I think with an economy in crisis people are really tuning into the inanity of these divisive social issues, which have been at the center of our presidential elections for the past 40 years. They aren't working this time and that's a very very good thing.[/quote]

I agree to some extent, but social issues matter. Why do I say that? Simple, because the breakdown of social mores, etc has helped contribute to the economic crisis that we are facing. What is the major factor in our impending economic collapse? Greed and the lust for power. On top of that, folks want something for nothing. There is nothing outside of chasing the almighty buck anymore. Outside of this people don't really believe in anything. Nihlism is the order of the day, absolutely no morality at all. Gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, etc all have negative consequences on society as a whole.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=tryfuhl;718165]i
America isn't a community though.. neither is VA[/quote]


America is a conglomerate of communities though, same with VA.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;717899]Question...would any of you who don't like the idea of gay marriage vote against a proposition similar to prop 8 if it were on your state ballet?[/quote]In VA, it would depend on how the law was written, but I could vote against it.

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;718181]Oh, I misunderstood you, thought you were referring to me for some reason... no doubt ignorance and fear play a big role for extremists of any type, not just pertaining to this issue.[/quote]

I was just speaking in general, sorry that wasn't clear

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;718196]I agree to some extent, but social issues matter. Why do I say that? Simple, because the breakdown of social mores, etc has helped contribute to the economic crisis that we are facing. What is the major factor in our impending economic collapse? Greed and the lust for power. On top of that, folks want something for nothing. There is nothing outside of chasing the almighty buck anymore. Outside of this people don't really believe in anything. Nihlism is the order of the day, absolutely no morality at all. Gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, etc all have negative consequences on society as a whole.[/quote]
true.. those factors didn't create capitalism and greed though

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;718197]America is a conglomerate of communities though, same with VA.[/quote]
the Amish community and a township community don't begin to compare as one is more ideological and the other geographical

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;718196]I agree to some extent, [B]but social issues matter.[/B] Why do I say that? Simple, because the breakdown of social mores, etc has helped contribute to the economic crisis that we are facing. What is the major factor in our impending economic collapse? Greed and the lust for power. On top of that, folks want something for nothing. There is nothing outside of chasing the almighty buck anymore. Outside of this people don't really believe in anything. Nihlism is the order of the day, absolutely no morality at all. [B]Gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, etc all have negative consequences on society as a whole.[/B][/quote]

The problem I have with the social issues crowd is that they feel the best way to deal with things like drugs, gambling or, in this case, homosexual behavior/marriage, is criminalization. The notion that we can do away with whatever we don't like with the wave of a legislative wand. There are always unintended consequences when you go that route, and, it only tends to make things worse. The War on Drugs is the very best example of this.

Also, when I pin social conservatives down on [I]exactly how [/I]society is impacted by homosexual marriage, how they are directly affected, or how their marriage suffers because gays can call themselves married, nobody's been able to do it.

There's a mentality among too many of us which essentially says, "someone is doing something I don't like, so therefore, I want to see that activity banned." We often say our liberty and freedom is under attack from the political left. Well, we can clearly see that the political right also wants to take away our liberty and freedom too, just in different areas.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;718122]It's funny that with issues like homosexuality and drugs, [B]social conservatives[/B] lose their capacity for logic and rational thought.[/quote]

They lose a lot of "logic and rational" on most social issues it seems.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;718213]In VA, it would depend on how the law was written, but I could vote against it.

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.[/quote]

This is the text of Prop 8, let's go with that.

[quote]Section I. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the "California Marriage Protection Act."

Section 2. Article I. Section 7.5 is added to the California Constitution. to read:
Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.[/quote]

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;718213]

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.[/quote]


I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here unless you get something in return? You have a right to put up a prop on the ballet.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;718424]This is the text of Prop 8, let's go with that.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here unless you get something in return? You have a right to put up a prop on the ballet.[/quote]First part, yes. I could vote against that.

Second part, life is a negotiation. Why would I give my support to something I'm morally against without a quid pro quo. And since we're asking hypothetical questions....if I was successful in putting a prop on the ballot in Washington State outlawing third trimester abortion do you support it? If not, and there's a gay marriage support prop on the ballot and conservatives in Wash St. agree to support the gay marriage prop, do you then support the third trimester abortion ban?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;718430]First part, yes. I could vote against that.

Second part, life is a negotiation. Why would I give my support to something I'm morally against without a quid pro quo. And since we're asking hypothetical questions....if I was successful in putting a prop on the ballot in Washington State outlawing third trimester abortion do you support it? If not, and there's a gay marriage support prop on the ballot and conservatives in Wash St. agree to support the gay marriage prop, do you then support the third trimester abortion ban?[/quote]

We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not whether I can get something in return or how others vote. I believe in a ban on partial birth abortion as long as there is no health issue, including mental health. It is a reasonable...you got 4 months to make a decision, make one and live with it.

Do the right thing, always, and if you think gay marriage is morally wrong but a ban on it constitutionally indefensible you need to make a choice where you stand and how you vote. Don't try to bargain and hold people hostage because it makes it easier for you to make a choice and feel good about your choice.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;718441]We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not whether I can get something in return or how others vote. I believe in a ban on partial birth abortion as long as there is no health issue, including mental health. It is a reasonable...you got 4 months to make a decision, make one and live with it.

Do the right thing, always, and if you think gay marriage is morally wrong but a ban on it constitutionally indefensible you need to make a choice where you stand and how you vote. Don't try to bargain and hold people hostage because it makes it easier for you to make a choice and feel good about your choice.[/quote]LOL on the lecture. You also mention ban on partial birth abortion, not third trimester. You then throw in the caveat of "mental health" which makes a ban basically not worth the paper it's written on. So much for the courage of going against the hard core left's social agenda.

I knew where you were going with this, just wondering how long it would take to get there....and we're at the same spot as always.