Re: Obama Care
 

Well I was gonna quote myself but that is just inane so I will just add these headlines, and again ask:
IF GM were operating in the [COLOR="Red"]RED[/COLOR] to the tune of [URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090713/pl_nm/us_usa_budget_2;_ylt=AgEwxpXmnDZh5m4wHvfnn7dv24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2dHNoaWQ3BHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1yLWItbGVmdARzbGsDZXYtanVuZWJ1ZGdl"]95BILLION a MONTH[/URL], what would happen to it?
Oh wait, we will never know because they declared bankruptcy when being far less in debt.

We are now at a [URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090713/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_economy_deficit"]TRILLION dollar deficit[/URL], not Debt, but deficit. We should be cutting all sorts of programs, not looking for ways to let the government spend even more.

edit: put another way, the debt grows by about $50,000 every second. Figure your annual salary in multiples/fractions of that, and then say this country needs to do anything but go on a serious fiscal diet

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567577]Well I was gonna quote myself but that is just inane so I will just add these headlines, and again ask:
IF GM were operating in the [COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR] to the tune of [URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090713/pl_nm/us_usa_budget_2;_ylt=AgEwxpXmnDZh5m4wHvfnn7dv24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2dHNoaWQ3BHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1yLWItbGVmdARzbGsDZXYtanVuZWJ1ZGdl"]95BILLION a MONTH[/URL], what would happen to it?
Oh wait, we will never know because they declared bankruptcy when being far less in debt.

We are now at a [URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090713/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_economy_deficit"]TRILLION dollar deficit[/URL], not Debt, but deficit. We should be cutting all sorts of programs, not looking for ways to let the government spend even more.

edit: put another way, the debt grows by about $50,000 every second. Figure your annual salary in multiples/fractions of that, and then say this country needs to do anything but go on a serious fiscal diet[/quote]

Good post and I will add this is not a Dem or Rep issue it is both parties that have been spending forever like druken sailors. At some point it has to stop.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567569]You're smarter than that, but I'll spell it out for you, since you asked.

Corporate structure:
Shareholders -> Executive Officers -> Employees

Shareholders want return on investment, but are usually not involved in the everyday activities and/or decisions of the business. They usually only care about the bottom line.

If the executive officers of a corporation are faced with a moral dilemma, and chose the morally right thing to do but profits suffer, the shareholders will elect new officers. If the executive officers want to keep their jobs, they will almost always be forced to choose profits over ethics. See the Ford Pinto as a case study.[/quote]

All right -- you answered none of my questions, but I'll still play along.

The Ford Pinto is a good example, but it proves my point more than it does yours. The Pinto is just one of the many examples of American cars that signified the decline in quality of the Big Three. As a result, they started losing out to better cars made by Toyota, Honda, and (at the time) Datsun. The American car companies paid the price for trying to cut corners and deliver an inferior product. So for them, choosing "profits over ethics" ultimately wound up losing them profits.

The free market worked like a charm; make a better product at a better price, and in the end, the consumers benefit.

The question is, what do you consider "immoral" in a business sense? And that goes back to the questions that you neglected to answer. I look forward to your response.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;567557]I love getting to the root of this "greed" issue...
[/quote]

GhettoDogAllStars may not have answered your questions but I will. First, your "questions" tend to be simplistic and stupid in nature. Second, they tend to be leading questions but not the good kind. Finally, they tend to be very insulting to sensibility.


[quote]When you're searching for a job, all other things being equal, do you go for the one that pays more over the one that pays less?

Are you being greedy if you choose the higher paying job?[/quote]If all things are equal why does one job pay more than the other? Perhaps one requires you to be away from your family more often? Maybe it will but a strain on your marriage? Maybe you're being too short sighted to see that you may lose your family at the expense of few more bucks and a shiny new boat?

[quote]If you're shopping for a product, and two products are on the shelf that both will do the job you want them to do, are you being greedy by selecting the less expensive brand?
[/quote]WTF kind of question is this and what does it have to do with greed? I don't believe you understand what the word [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/greedy"]greedy[/URL] means.

[quote]If you start a business, and you do everything in your power to cut down on expenses to earn as much money as you possibly can, are you being greedy?[/quote]Your best question so far but a very stupid question nonetheless. Making as much money as possible is perfectly fine, making as much money as possible [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron"]at the expense of your customers, employees and shareholders[/URL] is not.



You might want to spend more time practicing "getting to the root" of problems because this attempt is TT FAIL.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567622]GhettoDogAllStars may not have answered your questions but I will. First, your "questions" tend to be simplistic and stupid in nature. Second, they tend to be leading questions but not the good kind. Finally, they tend to be very insulting to sensibility.

[QUOTE]When you're searching for a job, all other things being equal, do you go for the one that pays more over the one that pays less?

Are you being greedy if you choose the higher paying job?[/quote]

If all things are equal why does one job pay more than the other? Perhaps one requires you to be away from your family more often? Maybe it will but a strain on your marriage? Maybe you're being too short sighted to see that you may lose your family at the expense of few more bucks and a shiny new boat?[/quote]

Clearly you don't understand the question. When I say "all other things being equal" I mean that the two jobs are otherwise equal in their perks, their distance from your home, the health and vacation benefits they're offering -- the two jobs offers are indentical, but one pays more than the other. Which job would you choose? And are you being greedy by taking the higher paying job?

[quote]If you're shopping for a product, and the two products on the shelf both will do the job you want them to do, are you being greedy by selecting the less expensive brand?[/quote]

[quote=Saden1]WTF kind of question is this and what does it have to do with greed? I don't believe you understand what the word [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/greedy"]greedy[/URL] means.[/quote]

From your link: "Greed: 1. Excessively desirous of acquiring [B]OR POSSESSING[/B], especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves."

If you're trying to save money by choosing a less expensive product, aren't you trying to [I]possess[/I] more wealth? The object, in the end, is to have as much money left over after the purchase as possible, no? Again, greed = possessing more than you deserve -- think real hard here, Saden.

[quote]If you start a business, and you do everything in your power to cut down on expenses to earn as much money as you possibly can, are you being greedy?[/quote]

[quote=Saden1]Your best question so far but a very stupid question nonetheless. Making as much money as possible is perfectly fine, making as much money as possible [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron"]at the expense of your customers, employees and shareholders[/URL] is not.[/quote]

Saden, you really ought to endeavor to do two things: spend more time actually reading the links you provide, and start using a dictionary. Your Enron example doesn't fit what we're talking about here. Check the definiton of [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/fraud"]fraud[/URL].

"1. Fraud: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain."

You say that making as much money as possible is fine, but not at the expense of your customers, employees, and shareholders. No kidding. One constitutes fraud, the other does not. That's like saying studying hard in college and working diligently for a higher paying job is fine but robbing banks is not. That's why the Enron Wiki link does nothing to prove your point. Enron engaged in accounting fraud which is against the law.

The point behind those questions I posed was to help distinguish between what is greedy and what is acting in your own best interests. If you answer the questions honestly, you will see that there's not much difference between the two.

GhettoDogAllStars used the phrase "corporate greed". Problem is, corporate greed is no different than what an individual does to enhance his or her position in life. We all want a better life for ourselves. Some of us spend more time with education, getting as much training as we can so that we're better qualified for a higher paying job. Some of us then use the money we've earned at that higher paying job to start or acquire a business that makes us more money. If we're successful, we expand, hire more employees, invest more, save more, and spend more.

Corporations, businesses big and small are no different. They've done exactly the same thing. In fact, just about all big businesses started small in the beginning. But somewhere along the line, they crossed the line from being respectable, to being hated by those on the left. I've tried for a long time to find out exactly what that line is. Is there a specific budget you can't exceed? A certain number of employees you can hire before you become "evil" in the minds of socialists? To me, that makes no sense.

That's why philisophically, I don't accept that 'greed' or even 'selfishness' is necessarily a bad thing.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote]Clearly you don't understand the question. When I say "all other things being equal" I mean that the two jobs are otherwise equal in their perks, their distance from your home, the health and vacation benefits they're offering -- the two jobs offers are indentical, but one pays more than the other. Which job would you choose? And are you being greedy by taking the higher paying job? [/quote]

I take it I answered your question satisfactorily then?

[quote]From your link: "Greed: 1. Excessively desirous of acquiring [B]OR POSSESSING[/B], especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves."

If you're trying to save money by choosing a less expensive product, aren't you trying to [I]possess[/I] more wealth? The object, in the end, is to have as much money left over after the purchase as possible, no? Again, greed = possessing more than you deserve -- think real hard here, Saden.[/quote]

If there has ever been bastardization and degeneration of a word this would be a great candidate. Choosing a product over another because it is cheaper is not an example greed. Buying both products at the same time when you only needs one is. You would be better served using the word [URL="http://www.answers.com/frugal"]frugal[/URL] instead of greedy.



[quote]Saden, you really ought to endeavor to do two things: spend more time actually reading the links you provide, and start using a dictionary. Your Enron example doesn't fit what we're talking about here. Check the definiton of [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/fraud"]fraud[/URL].

"1. Fraud: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain."

You say that making as much money as possible is fine, but not at the expense of your customers, employees, and shareholders. No kidding. One constitutes fraud, the other does not. [/quote]

You are right in that their conduct was fraudulent but wrong in that you fail to realize what motivated this fraud (hint, greed). Greed is a prerequisite for fraud (absent psychological defects of course). I challenge you to give me an example of fraud absent greed.

[quote]That's like saying studying hard in college and working diligently for a higher paying job is fine but robbing banks is not. That's why the Enron Wiki link does nothing to prove your point. Enron engaged in accounting fraud which is against the law.[/quote]

:doh:

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567622]GhettoDogAllStars may not have answered your questions but I will. First, your "questions" tend to be simplistic and stupid in nature. Second, they tend to be leading questions but not the good kind. Finally, they tend to be very insulting to sensibility.


If all things are equal why does one job pay more than the other? Perhaps one requires you to be away from your family more often? Maybe it will but a strain on your marriage? Maybe you're being too short sighted to see that you may lose your family at the expense of [SIZE=4]few more bucks and a shiny new boat?[/SIZE]

WTF kind of question is this and what does it have to do with greed? I don't believe you understand what the word [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/greedy"]greedy[/URL] means.

Your best question so far but a very stupid question nonetheless. Making as much money as possible is perfectly fine, making as much money as possible [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron"]at the expense of your customers, employees and shareholders[/URL] is not.



You might want to spend more time practicing "getting to the root" of problems because this attempt is TT FAIL.[/quote]
Beam you got a shiny new boat and have not invited me to go fishing? I only live 20 to 30 minutes away and I'll won't be greedy and I'll chip in for gas, bait, and beer. Heck, I'll even bring us both lunch but I can only buy one slice of each kind of meat because Saden says if I buy two of the same things then its greedy.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;567641]You say that making as much money as possible is fine, but not at the expense of your customers, employees, and shareholders. No kidding. One constitutes fraud [b][not greed][/b], the other does not. ... That's why the Enron Wiki link does nothing to prove your point [b][as an example of greed][/b]. Enron engaged in accounting fraud which is against the law [b][but did not engage in corporate greed][/b].[/quote]

Saden answered it perfectly, but I'll elaborate a little.

You're basically saying Enron was not greedy, because they were fraudulent. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be greedy and fraudulent at the same time. And, like Saden said, fraud is almost always motivated by greed.

I fail to see how if something is illegal then it cannot be greedy. That makes absolutely no sense. That's why I gave up explaining this to Firstdown. You surprise me, because I never thought you'd use the same ridiculous reasoning.

[quote=Beemnseven;567641]That's why philisophically, I don't accept that 'greed' or even 'selfishness' is necessarily a bad thing.[/quote]

I'm probably misunderstanding you (and the word "philosophically" does not change anything), but if not then I feel very bad for you. I think Saden was right -- you don't understand what greed is.

Re: Obama Care
 

Gentlemen, if you cannot grasp the point I'm trying to make -- that there is no difference between what you call "corporate greed" and people doing whatever they can to better their position in life, outside of fraud and stealing from other people, then I don't know what else I can say.

Neither of you have answered my question -- what's the difference between an evil, vile, big business doing everything it can to enhance its bottom line and an individual doing everything he or she can to collect and save as much wealth as possible? How is one greed and the other not?

I'll answer, since neither of you will. Both are examples of greed. In one degree or another, greed exists in all of us. So yes, Enron was greedy. But so are you and me, and everyone else striving for a better life, for something more than we already have. But when you cross the line into cheating, stealing or defrauding others then that's something different.

That's why, again, I don't think greed is a bad thing.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;567645]Beam you got a shiny new boat and have not invited me to go fishing? I only live 20 to 30 minutes away and I'll won't be greedy and I'll chip in for gas, bait, and beer. Heck, I'll even bring us both lunch but I can only buy one slice of each kind of meat because Saden says if I buy two of the same things then its greedy.[/quote]

Well, I'm not there yet. I have lots more hard work to do before I can get a boat. When that day comes we'll get together and be greedy with more beer than we possibly deserve.

Re: Obama Care
 

Everyone is greedy to a degree, not denying that. Hell a certain amount of greed is healthy. But greed is taken to entirely new levels with examples like Enron. That's greed at it's very worst.

Re: Obama Care
 

Can someone explain why Criminal Corporate Greed, as exemplified by Enron, is worse than an entire generation (ours) "stealing" our children's future (back to the 11TRILLION dollar debt number), which is somehow seen as the act of a benevolent government? Both parties have created this debt, and by extension all of us who have voted these people in have. We are the "shareholders" who are allowing this to happen.

If Enron was evil, then 11trillion dollar debt is too.
-- this is an emotional, not logical appeal. I know it is not an apple to apple comparison, but can anyone really wrap their mind around a number like 11trillion. Enron, and all the other corporate scandals, they hit home, the numbers make sense and there are personalities attached to each theft. But 11 trillion, that doesn't mean anything really, and the faces attached are more likely to be starving kids being fed or politicians just trying to help their community, then some evil or "greedy" corporate suit. But which one will have the longer negative affect on the United States?

ok done :rant:

atleast for now. ;)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567649]Saden answered it perfectly, but I'll elaborate a little.

You're basically saying Enron was not greedy, because they were fraudulent. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be greedy and fraudulent at the same time. And, like Saden said, fraud is almost always motivated by greed.

I fail to see how if something is illegal then it cannot be greedy. That makes absolutely no sense. That's why I gave up explaining this to Firstdown. You surprise me, because I never thought you'd use the same ridiculous reasoning.



I'm probably misunderstanding you (and the word "philosophically" does not change anything), but if not then I feel very bad for you. I think Saden was right -- you don't understand what greed is.[/quote]

GDA, I think you misunderstood my point. I agree that when corporations do stuff like that it is in alot of cases greed. My point was that what they were doing was already against the law. If people are set out to rip people off (get greedy) it does not matter if they work for a corporation or the goverment its going to happen. In either case we have laws against such acts. Madoff was a greedy old man and did not give a crap that he was ripping off people and now he is paying the price. You could also say congress is full of people who are greedy and will take any money from who ever throws it there way and then vote for bills which they really do not support just because of the money.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567666]Can someone explain why Criminal Corporate Greed, as exemplified by Enron, is worse than an entire generation (ours) "stealing" our children's future (back to the 11TRILLION dollar debt number), which is somehow seen as the act of a benevolent government? Both parties have created this debt, and by extension all of us who have voted these people in have. We are the "shareholders" who are allowing this to happen.

If Enron was evil, then 11trillion dollar debt is too.
-- this is an emotional, not logical appeal. I know it is not an apple to apple comparison, but can anyone really wrap their mind around a number like 11trillion. Enron, and all the other corporate scandals, they hit home, the numbers make sense and there are personalities attached to each theft. But 11 trillion, that doesn't mean anything really, and the faces attached are more likely to be starving kids being fed or politicians just trying to help their community, then some evil or "greedy" corporate suit. But which one will have the longer negative affect on the United States?

ok done :rant:

atleast for now. ;)[/quote]

There is not a big difference to me and our large national dept is a product of congress unwilling to cut cost do to the fact they are scared it will cost them their job. When was the last time we had someone running for office that actually stood up and talked about all the cuts that need to be made. I'm sure there are some and McCain did to a point but most just talk about more goverment programs as did McCain.

Re: Obama Care
 

On the subject of Enron anyone see the documentary 'The Smartest Guys in the Room'?

Pretty fascinating look at that trainwreck.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk72;567674]On the subject of Enron anyone see the documentary 'The Smartest Guys in the Room'?

Pretty fascinating look at that trainwreck.[/quote]

One of Mark Cuban's finest films. Those guys were something else for sure

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;567655]Gentlemen, if you cannot grasp the point I'm trying to make -- that there is no difference between what you call "corporate greed" and people doing whatever they can to better their position in life, outside of fraud and stealing from other people, then I don't know what else I can say.[/quote]

There is no difference between corporate greed and individual greed. However, "people doing whatever they can to better their position in life," is NOT greed. Greed lies in excess. So, if you excessively try to better your life, more than you need or deserve -- and outside the realm of moderation -- than you are greedy.

[quote=Beemnseven;567655]
Neither of you have answered my question -- what's the difference between an evil, vile, big business doing everything it can to enhance its bottom line and an individual doing everything he or she can to collect and save as much wealth as possible? How is one greed and the other not?[/quote]

Haha. Nice of you to throw in the "evil, vile, big business" remark, because I *must* think *all* businesses are evil and vile? And, of course making money at all is greedy and selfish. LMFAO.

[quote=Beemnseven;567655]
I'll answer, since neither of you will. Both are examples of greed. In one degree or another, greed exists in all of us. So yes, Enron was greedy. But so are you and me, and everyone else striving for a better life, for something more than we already have. But when you cross the line into cheating, stealing or defrauding others then that's something different.

That's why, again, I don't think greed is a bad thing.[/quote]

You're so wrong. Striving for a better life is not greedy. Greed is about excess -- not about wanting. It is possible to want, and not be greedy. When you're hungry and you want something to eat, you must be greedy right? LOL.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;567671]There is not a big difference to me and [b]our large national debt is a product of congress unwilling to cut cost do to the fact they are scared it will cost them their job[/b]. When was the last time we had someone running for office that actually stood up and talked about all the cuts that need to be made. I'm sure there are some and McCain did to a point but most just talk about more goverment programs as did McCain.[/quote]

Sounds like the same issue with the flawed corporate model. More support for your theory CRR.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567716]Sounds like the same issue with the flawed corporate model. More support for your theory CRR.[/quote]
That makes no sense. I'd say a corporate mgr would do the opposite and cut cost to save their job. Wouldn't cost over run cost them money?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;567736]That makes no sense. I'd say a corporate mgr would do the opposite and cut cost to save their job. Wouldn't cost over run cost them money?[/quote]

My point is that (most) people are more concerned with keeping their job, than doing what is right -- corporate executives and congressmen alike.

Make sense now?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567713]There is no difference between corporate greed and individual greed. However, "people doing whatever they can to better their position in life," is NOT greed. Greed lies in excess. So, if you excessively try to better your life, more than you need or deserve -- and outside the realm of moderation -- than you are greedy.



Haha. Nice of you to throw in the "evil, vile, big business" remark, because I *must* think *all* businesses are evil and vile? And, of course making money at all is greedy and selfish. LMFAO.



You're so wrong. Striving for a better life is not greedy. Greed is about excess -- not about wanting. It is possible to want, and not be greedy. When you're hungry and you want something to eat, you must be greedy right? LOL.[/quote]

So how do you define excess? And who gets to determine how much [I]you[/I] need or deserve?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567752]My point is that (most) people are more concerned with keeping their job, than doing what is right -- corporate executives and congressmen alike.

Make sense now?[/quote]

You must not have much fath in your fellow Americans. I say more people will do what right and what happens, happens. It sounds like you think more people are willing to throw out any ethics they have for the sake of their job and I just don't think thats true. Does it happen? Yes everyday and we see it on the news but the news never shows the people who risk their job to do what right. You really seem to hate corporations and I'd love to hear your solution to your concerns.

Re: Obama Care
 

I don't know why, but I saw this episode of the Goode Family online yesterday and this bearded dude reminded of GhettoDog :)

[YT]MwexnQNykp4[/YT]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;567838]Y[B]ou must not have much faith in your fellow Americans[/B]. I say more people will do what right and what happens, happens. It sounds like you think more people are willing to throw out any ethics they have for the sake of their job and I just don't think thats true. Does it happen? Yes everyday and we see it on the news but the news never shows the people who risk their job to do what right. You really seem to hate corporations and I'd love to hear your solution to your concerns.[/quote]

To be fair, I think those who don't have faith in government are right there in the same boat. If the point is, that with more power (corporate or government) comes more opportunity for corruption, than it is not a lack of faith in fellow citizens, just a realization of a natural fact.

The dilemma for me, is that while corporate excesses are usually confined to a limited scope(one company no matter how big), and often highly publicized, and the government is there as a backstop when they occur; government excesses are usually more easily covered up, generally affect the whole public, and there is no real backstop -unless you count the media, but they have no regulatory authority.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567842]To be fair, I think those who don't have faith in government are right there in the same boat. If the point is, that with more power (corporate or government) comes more opportunity for corruption, than it is not a lack of faith in fellow citizens, just a realization of a natural fact.

The dilemma for me, is that while corporate excesses are usually confined to a limited scope(one company no matter how big), and often highly publicized, and the government is there as a backstop when they occur; government excesses are usually more easily covered up, generally affect the whole public, and there is no real backstop -unless you count the media, but they have no regulatory authority.[/quote]

I guess thats fair and GD could say I have no faith in man in reguards to how I feel about goverment.

Re: Obama Care
 

Here's the new Org/Flow Chart for the House version of Obama Care.

[URL]http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/House-Democrats-Health-Plan.pdf[/URL]

Now that I see this, I'm sure it will reduce the cost of health care in the U.S. :frusty: I wonder what goes on in the Health Insurance Exchange box. PFM, I guess.

An interesting number I heard this morning. From Bush's Prescription Drug program (which he and the folks voting for it in Congress should be kicked in the nuts a few hundred times for), the inital cost was estimated at $ 300M over 10 years, before a single prescription was filled the cost had balloned to over $ 900M over 10 years.

At a current estimate of $ 1T - 1.5[B]T [/B]over 10 years, multiplied by 3, we're looking at $ 3 - 4.5[B]T [/B]added to the national debt, for health care reform alone. To do what, extend coverage to approximately 20M people? This is lunacy.

Unless I lost track of zeros, if you estimate the cost of a private insurance plan for an average, single, healthy person at approximately $ 1,500 / yr. then multiply by 20M, you wind up with $ 30B / yr., over 10 years we're looking at $ 300B, say $ 400B for inflation. That sure looks a lot better than $3-4.5T. This could be done with a voucher or tax credit and could be modified/scaled back/cancelled relatively easily.

Why are the Dems pushing their MASSIVE expansion of gov't so hard if the same problem can be solved much more cost effectively.....answer, the more dependent folks are on gov't the closer we become to true European socialism(the far left-wing of the Dems ultimate goal). The Fed gov't can grab more of our money (freedom) under the guise of "providing health care for the less fortunate". This is nothing more than a power grab by Premier Obama and his comrades on the left.

Re: Obama Care
 

Damn, DK done f'ed him up:

[yt]DII7v8yeRjs[/yt]

Re: Obama Care
 

Not hard to "F" someone up when you don't let them talk.

Kucinich must be taking a page out of Sean Hannity's playbook.

Re: Obama Care
 

If you ask me DK looked and acted like a big A hole. Why not just ask the questions and stop talking down to the person and being down right rude.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567904]Damn, DK done f'ed him up:

[yt]DII7v8yeRjs[/yt][/quote]Pretty easy when you control the hearing and are jamming bogus numbers down a guy's throat as fact. Was this an Air America spot or a Congressional Hearing????

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;567922]Pretty easy when you control the hearing and are jamming bogus numbers down a guy's throat as fact. Was this an Air America spot or a Congressional Hearing????[/quote]

It's pretty easy to make you look stupid when you know nothing. This guys is suppose to be an expert in Canadian healthcare system. I mean, look at him, does he look like an expert or an inexperienced shill?

This is how you do shilling big, ya'heard?

[yt]i5cr1RWzObE[/yt]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567928][B]It's pretty easy to make you look stupid when you know nothing.[/B] This guys is suppose to be an expert in Canadian healthcare system. I mean, look at him, does he look like an expert or an inexperienced shill?

This is how you do shilling big, ya'heard?

[yt]i5cr1RWzObE[/yt][/quote]

You have a hard time not insulting people. I guess it's frustrating when you're the self-proclaimed smartest person on this site and you're surrounded by all these idiots. Ya'heard? :doh:

Re: Obama Care
 

saden is better than all of us (particularly anyone who may not agree with him). Until we learn to accept that, we will forever live in a cesspool of ignorance and inferiority

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=SmootSmack;567950]saden is better than all of us (particularly anyone who may not agree with him). Until we learn to accept that, we will forever live in a cesspool of ignorance and inferiority[/quote]

I think he's related to Rahm Emanuel. Hell, he may actually be Rahm Emanuel.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;567948]You have a hard time not insulting people. I guess it's frustrating when you're the self-proclaimed smartest person on this site and you're surrounded by all these idiots. Ya'heard? :doh:[/quote]
Being the smartest guy on the site, saden certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I took his comment as talking about the guy in the YouTube clip. He's never said anything like that in response to any of my posts in the past.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;567953]Being the smartest guy on the site, saden certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I took his comment as talking about the guy in the YouTube clip. He's never said anything like that in response to any of my posts in the past.[/quote]

True, very true. I think he was talking about the person in the clip in his post there as well. As a whole though, I personally think he does tend to talk down to others in the parking lot. Particularly those who don't see eye to eye with him.

Re: Obama Care
 

Nice try SS, I call balls and strikes is all but I didn't expect you to notice that given your limitations and all. Give him a round of applause folks for the wonderful effort.

:rolleyes:

p.s. Next time we'll have to compare penis sizes, you know, to gauge the biggest dick on the site.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;567948]You have a hard time not insulting people. I guess it's frustrating when you're the self-proclaimed smartest person on this site and you're surrounded by all these idiots. Ya'heard? :doh:[/quote]

You know, I'm insulted by your inference that I have hard time not insulting people. I would demand an apology but I don't think you would give me one. Oh well, such is life.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567955]Nice try SS, I call balls and strikes is all but I didn't expect you to notice that give your limitations and all. Give him a round of applause folks for the his wonderful effort.

:rolleyes:

p.s. Next time we'll have to compare penis sizes, you know, to gauge the biggest dick on the site.[/quote]

You having trouble writing today? Your grammar is all over the place today. Anyhow, I actually you are pretty educated, smart, know what you're talking about, etc. I just happened to think your style tends to be somewhat belittling at times. Have I been that way in the past? Sure. Can I still be that way sometimes. Most likely. But I would hope that I don't do it with the frequency you do it (or at least as often as I and others perceive you do).

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=SmootSmack;567962][SIZE=4]You having trouble writing today? Your grammar is all over the place today.[/SIZE] Anyhow, I actually you are pretty educated, smart, know what you're talking about, etc. I just happened to think your style tends to be somewhat belittling at times. Have I been that way in the past? Sure. Can I still be that way sometimes. Most likely. But I would hope that I don't do it with the frequency you do it (or at least as often as I and others perceive you do).[/quote]

He has me proff reading his post.