Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;786335][url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5005254]Seattle Seahawks acquire San Diego Chargers' Charlie Whitehurst - ESPN[/url][/quote]

Will it be possible to trade McNabb after the draft if teams are making moves before?

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;786355]Well of course we have to agree to disagree no one is out here trying to change each others minds.
For me if I see a post that I believe makes states or assumptions that I disagree I'm gonna respond.
No harm meant.
Has Locker's actual draft stock dropped or its perception has dropped?
B/c I'm of the belief that players actually scout and team evaluation don't change very much.
The draftnik community? Well that's a different story.

BTW-Blaine Gabbert seems like a total bust.

j/k
But you see how a statement like that can be made about any prospect? Its just kinda of an empty way to take a jab at prospect you don't like.[/quote]

Just something about Locker says bust to me. Of course Gabbert could be as well but in my view he would be the "safer" (if you can call it that) pick.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;786335][url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5005254]Seattle Seahawks acquire San Diego Chargers' Charlie Whitehurst - ESPN[/url][/quote]

lolololol. good point.

No excuses for such bad accuracy from Locker. Alot of those bad throws in the NFL are gonna be picked off. I think what you have to remember is, with college QBs, you have to squeeze throws in between defenders or on tight coverage occasionally in a game. In the NFL, you do that on every drive as a QB. I dont see how people expect Locker to suddenly just become 60-65% passer when he makes this NFL jump. I dont see it happening.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;786356]LoL, here we go again.
So you have Locker's issues clearly figured to a certainity?
'Lacks basic pocket competency'
And now its a 'fact' that he 'can't' complete a number of passes that you deem 'acceptable'

If you exclude Locker's freshmen and his sophmore (injured week 3 missed rest of season team went 0-12) under Willingham his comp% is 56.8%.
Which would put him just a hair ahead of:
Matt Stafford: 56.6%
it puts him a hair behind
Josh Freeman: 57.9%
and not that far off from
Matt Ryan: 59.3%
Jay Cutler: 60%

In fact Locker has a lot in common w/ those QBs guess who:

Guess who scouting report this is:[/quote]Just to venture a guess, let me go: Flacco, Cutler, and Rodgers at the bottom.

56.8% is a poor completion percentage at the college level, but once you remove the excuse of using a players formative years in college to deflate completion percentage, it is absolutely atrocious.

I could see, perhaps, the Stafford comparison in terms of accuracy, but Stafford hasn't exactly lit it up in the pros, justifying the use of a high pick on someone similar like Locker.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Chico23231;786366]lolololol. good point.

No excuses for such bad accuracy from Locker. Alot of those bad throws in the NFL are gonna be picked off. I think what you have to remember is, with college QBs, you have to squeeze throws in between defenders or on tight coverage occasionally in a game. In the NFL, you do that on every drive as a QB. I dont see how people expect Locker to suddenly just become 60-65% passer when he makes this NFL jump. I dont see it happening.[/quote]I think it's a exercise in delusion. I wish someone would go and make the argument in favor of low completion percentage players who made it big in the pros, rather than trying to act like Locker is not the player everyone thinks he is.

Derek Anderson (drafted in 2005) completed only 50.7% of his college passes. Is he good? No. Was he good? Never. But he at least went to a pro bowl. And Locker for sure will be better than Derek Anderson.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;786392]justifying the use of a high pick on someone similar like Locker.[/quote]

When did I say Locker was a high pick?
I like looking at QBs from an evaluation perspective.
I try not get involved in the prediction business b/c there are far too many factors external to the QB themselves that will determine their success.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Chico23231;786366]I think what you have to remember is, with college QBs, you have to squeeze throws in between defenders or on tight coverage occasionally in a game.[/quote]
You'll probably discount my opinion simply because I disagree, but in the Washington games I watched the WRs hardly got any separation compared to the Auburn and Mizzou games I watched.
I think Locker has a lot of experience making throws into tight windows.

[quote]I dont see how people expect Locker to suddenly just become 60-65% passer when he makes this NFL jump. I dont see it happening.[/quote]
Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it can't happen.
I don't really get the fascination with the whole prediction/forecasting thing.
When you look at Locker as a QB prospect I think he stacks up as one of the top prospects.
Could he fail? Sure but so could any prospect even prospects w/ 65% or higher comp%.

[quote=GTripp0012;786392]Just to venture a guess, let me go: Flacco, Cutler, and Rodgers at the bottom.[/quote]

Good guesses.
It was Freeman, Stafford and Rodgers.
Stafford if not for injury was off to a better start Matt Sanchez who many people see as an up and coming young QB.

How funny is to read question marks about accuracy in regards to Rodgers now?

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;786449]You'll probably discount my opinion simply because I disagree, but in the Washington games I watched the WRs hardly got any separation compared to the Auburn and Mizzou games I watched.
I think Locker has a lot of experience making throws into tight windows.


Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it can't happen.
I don't really get the fascination with the whole prediction/forecasting thing.
When you look at Locker as a QB prospect I think he stacks up as one of the top prospects.
Could he fail? Sure but so could any prospect even prospects w/ 65% or higher comp%.



[/quote]

Not gonna discount your opinion but will disagree. I saw Locker play a handful of games in his career and never came away impressed. Hey whoever we get Ill be pulling for the guy, but if we spend the 10th pick on him, Im gonna be pissed.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Chico23231;786451]Not gonna discount your opinion but will disagree. I saw Locker play a handful of games in his career and never came away impressed. [B][I][U]Hey whoever we get Ill be pulling for the guy[/U][/I][/B], but if we spend the 10th pick on him, Im gonna be pissed.[/quote]
Same here I like this crop of QBs even the guys after the top 4 like Stanzi, Dalton and Ponder.

I think we should move down from 10 if possible then draft our QB.
But, if the draft shakes out where Newton and Gabbert are gone then Locker would make sense at 10.

You weren't even impressed w/ the Oregon State or the Apple Cup?

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[url=http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/02/27/newton-i-underestimated-the-timing-aspect-of-qb/?module=HP_spotlight]NFL.com Blogs » Blog Archive Newton on workout: ‘I was somewhat frustrated’ «[/url]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;786495]Same here I like this crop of QBs even the guys after the top 4 like Stanzi, Dalton and Ponder.

I think we should move down from 10 if possible then draft our QB.
But, if the draft shakes out where Newton and Gabbert are gone then Locker would make sense at 10.

You weren't even impressed w/ the Oregon State or the Apple Cup?[/quote]

I wouldn't be impressed with Locker if he figured out the entire Cola-Cola secret formula.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;786533]I wouldn't be impressed with Locker if he figured out the entire Cola-Cola secret formula.[/quote]

That's great.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;786725]That's great.[/quote]

Lol I couldn't help myself.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Chico23231;786451]Not gonna discount your opinion but will disagree. I saw Locker play a handful of games in his career and never came away impressed. Hey whoever we get Ill be pulling for the guy, but if we spend the 10th pick on him, Im gonna be pissed.[/quote]

I can't say I saw a lot of his games cause I haven't. But the few that I did see the guy reminds me of Jay Scheroder, minus the attitude. Great athlete, cannon arm but doesn't know where the ball is going half of the time.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Locker's accuracy issues seem to be mostly footwork related. Not that uncommon and something that can be corrected at the next level.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

The lights are flashing, the red flags are waving furiously so it's going to interesting to see what idiot team drafts Newton.

I don't see how in your right mind you could select this guy as a top pick (in the first 2 rounds) to be your future QB.

Let's review.

[url=http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/02/cam-newton-views-himself-as-an-entertainer-and-icon/1]Cam Newton views himself as 'an entertainer and icon' - The Huddle: Football News from the NFL - USATODAY.com[/url]

[quote]Newton: "I see myself not only as a football player, but an entertainer and icon.''[/quote]


[url=http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/02/27/mixed-reviews-for-newton-after-hyped-workout/?module=HP_cp2]NFL.com Blogs » Blog Archive Mixed reviews for Newton after hyped workout «[/url]

[quote]Today showed he’s not very comfortable in three- and five-step drops, and there’s a lot of work to be done. [/quote]



[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/news/story?id=6166264&campaign=rss&source=NFLHeadlines]Cam Newton gets mixed reviews at Indy combine - ESPN[/url]

Listen to Todd McShay's radio interview on Mike and Mike. He talks about how Newton didn't do very well in the interviews.


[url]http://rob-rang.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/13682485/27698893?source=rss_blogs_NFL%20Draft[/url]

[quote]Even more of a concern, however, is that the reigning Heisman winner is also struggling answering football questions during team interviews at the Combine.

NFLDraftScout.com has learned that at least two teams gave Newton poor grades for his "football character" following interviewing him at the Combine. Newton, according to league sources, had a difficult time drawing up plays and how to react to different defensive schemes when asked to work on the white board. [/quote]


It's amazing this guy is still being talked about being drafted in the first round. Smart teams and GMs will avoid this guy like the plague. Bad ones on the other hand will most likely pick him up.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Bottom line the kid has a ton of natural talent.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;786836]Bottom line the kid has a ton of natural talent.[/quote]

Natural talent doesn't necessarily equal success at the NFL level. That being said there is no room for maybe successful, or might be successful down the road with the #10 pick. Not with where we are with the franchise right now. A screw up would be devastating.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;786836]Bottom line the kid has a ton of natural talent.[/quote]

I agree 100% with you, but it's still not somebody you select in the first (or even second) round.


Remember how draft pundits had Bruce Campbell (tackle from Maryland) ranked so high because of his "natural talent" and his "upside" to be a dominant left tackle. He went exactly where Newton should be going. About the fourth round.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

4th round? That's a bit of a stretch. QB's are always over-hyped, just the nature of the position.

I wouldn't touch him in the top 10. In fact I probably wouldn't touch any of the available QBs in the top 10.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=NC_Skins;786871]I agree 100% with you, but it's still not somebody you select in the first (or even second) round.


Remember how draft pundits had Bruce Campbell (tackle from Maryland) ranked so high because of his "natural talent" and his "upside" to be a dominant left tackle. He went exactly where Newton should be going. About the fourth round.[/quote]

Or JaMarcus Russell. At this time a few years ago everyone was sniffing his jock and talking about his otherworldly "talent." Now he's a spokesman for purple drank.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;786896]Or JaMarcus Russell. At this time a few years ago everyone was sniffing his jock and talking about his otherworldly "talent." Now he's a spokesman for purple drank.[/quote]

Yeah thats because people put way to much stock in the combine and the very scripted individual workouts. I remember scout sayin his individual workout was maybe the most impressive ever. Combine and workouts are nothing but hype.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;786892]4th round? That's a bit of a stretch. QB's are always over-hyped, just the nature of the position.

I wouldn't touch him in the top 10. In fact I probably wouldn't touch any of the available QBs in the top 10.[/quote]


From Shanan's book "Think Like A Champion"

[quote]

" One of the most second-guessed areas, where so many risks are taken, is the NFL draft. Each April, some of the picks baffle me, but none more so than at quarterback. Of all the players and positions available in the draft, quarterback is easily the worst evaluated.

[B]It’s amazing to me how some teams will take a quarterback in the first round when you have him ranked as a fifth-round talent. I’ve seen players we’ve had ranked as fourth-round picks go in the top ten. [/B]It is why I love to play the odds with quarterbacks.

During the 1993 draft, while I was still with the 49ers, we had Michigan’s Elvis Grbac rated as the draft’s second-best quarterback, behind Washington State’s Drew Bledsoe and just ahead of Notre Dame’s Rick Mirer and Washington’s Mark Brunell. San Francisco was loaded at quarterback and I made my pitch for Elvis in the fourth round, the fifth round, the sixth round and the seventh - which gives you an idea of how much pull I had there. The 49ers did not take Elvis until the eighth round.

Elvis went on to help the 49ers get to Super Bowl XXIX and later, as a free agent, left San Francisco to become the starting quarterback in Kansas City. But that draft left me with something more than a strong relationship with Elvis. It left me with the idea that if you see a quarterback in the third, fourth, or fifth round whom you feel is a second-round talent, why wait to take him? The odds are with you."[/quote]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Good info but that doesn't tell us if Newton is a 4th round talent or not.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;786924]Good info but that doesn't tell us if Newton is a 4th round talent or not.[/quote]

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/01/AR2011030106627.html]Sally Jenkins - Judging quarterbacks is anything but a snap[/url]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Again, good info but that doesn't tell us if Newton is a 4th round talent or not.

All that matters is where the team that ends up taking him has him ranked. Perhaps some teams do have him rated as a 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th rounder. But there are definitely teams that have him rated as a 1st rounder.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

I think if people are honest with themselves its kinda obvious that Cam Newton is a first round talent.
But, at the same time being talented does not guarantee success for Newton or for anybody else.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;787070]Again, good info but that doesn't tell us if Newton is a 4th round talent or not.

All that matters is where the team that ends up taking him has him ranked. Perhaps some teams do have him rated as a 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th rounder. But there are definitely teams that have him rated as a 1st rounder.[/quote]

Agreed......maybe that's the reason the author put emphasis on it not being exact, leaving an open door to all the many variables.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;787088]I think if people are honest with themselves its kinda obvious that Cam Newton is a first round talent.[/quote]


Not even remotely true. I put Cam Newton on the same lines as Tim Tebow. Tebow was a slated 3-4 round talent at the QB level. It's the exact reason why he really came back to college instead of opting for the pros.

[url=http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2008-12-18/tebow-gauge-nfl-draft-prospects]Tebow to gauge NFL draft prospects - NCAA Football - Sporting News[/url]


Guess what? Nothing much changed that following year at Florida either and his stock was still at a 3-4 round QB talent with much "upside" and "talent" as Cam Newron would be. That doesn't mean some idiot Coach/GM isn't going to take him. That idiot in Denver (McDaniels) selected him in the first and he didn't even make it through the season before he was fired. Denver is still looking for a QB as they've already named Orton the starter.

[url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/619712-denver-broncos-coach-fox-names-orton-starter-for-now]Denver Broncos Coach Fox Names Orton Starter... for Now | Bleacher Report[/url]

If you want a true professional's opinion, then try Mayock's.

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Newton-s-media-workout-was-more-sizzle-than-stea?urn=nfl-320101]Newton's media workout was more sizzle than steak - Shutdown Corner - NFL*Blog - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

[quote] "I really didn't need to see the workout, nor do I need to hear about the workout because I can tell you what that workout entails. I've watched five of his game tapes, he's got a classic over-hand delivery, he's got a big arm. You and I in gym shorts at the local high school can throw pretty accurately, so I would guarantee you he would look great in a pair of gym shorts, he would throw with accuracy and arm strength. His mechanics are very good but I would also [offer] one cautionary note, and that is the best pro day for a quarterback I ever attended was JaMarcus Russell(notes). That same day, even though I admitted it was the best pro day I ever saw, I also said I wouldn't take him in the first round. For me, it's not about him throwing in shorts; it's about a lot of other things.

"A choreographed day like today is fine, but the NFL is not really even allowed to be there so they're looking at the clips, the same that you and I are. They want to see him throw the ball at the Combine with the other quarterbacks, and then they want to see him at the Auburn pro day. And even then, that's really not going to tell the tale because he's going to throw the football beautifully in those controlled environments. To me, there are two issues with this kid. Issue No. 1 is he came out of a shotgun [formation], and if you watch the tape it's basically a very simple offense. One read and either the ball was out or he was out. Can he adapt to, can he process and assimilate a very structured and complex pro offense against a complex pro defense? And secondly, and most importantly, when you get to a certain skill level in the NFL, which this kid certainly has, at the quarterback position what kind of kid is he? Is he going to be the first guy in the building? Is he a gym rat? Is he football smart? Is he a leader of men? All of those things to me are way more important than any workout in shorts."[/quote]

I suggest you fans sit back and remove the hype from a player. Based off of talent at the QB spot alone, he's not a 1st round grade. If you want to base it off "upside" and "potential", then ANYBODY can be a first round grade. First round grades are for guys that are supposed to be impact players from the get go, not for guys that have huge upsides that require a lot of coaching/teaching to perform. If you are having to teach a player mechanics and throwing motion and footwork, chances are he shouldn't be a first round grade. We won't even throw in the "character" issues at risk here as well, which he's failed miserably.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

And with all that, he's still going in the top of the first round. Could go #1 overall.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;788010]And with all that, he's still going in the top of the first round. Could go #1 overall.[/quote]

Even more so now that their will be a rookie salary cap. It means a team isn't going to have to pay the huge costs if he's a bust. However, drafting the wrong QB will set your franchise back 3-5 years regardless of how much money you give him. Had Vinny been here, we would have drafted Jimmy Clausen at the #4 spot this past year. Like Shanny said in the book, it's amazing how stupid people are when it comes to making picks.

I don't see the Panthers taking him. JR doesn't like to take players that have had troubled pasts so I definitely think they'll go defense. My guess is they want people to think that so they can trade out of the pick and get more bang for the buck.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/08/scout-on-newton-youre-damned-if-you-damned-if-you-dont/]Scout on Newton: “You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t” | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=NC_Skins;788021]Even more so now that their will be a rookie salary cap. It means a team isn't going to have to pay the huge costs if he's a bust. However, drafting the wrong QB will set your franchise back 3-5 years regardless of how much money you give him. Had Vinny been here, we would have drafted Jimmy Clausen at the #4 spot this past year. Like Shanny said in the book, it's amazing how stupid people are when it comes to making picks.

I don't see the Panthers taking him. JR doesn't like to take players that have had troubled pasts so I definitely think they'll go defense. My guess is they want people to think that so they can trade out of the pick and get more bang for the buck.[/quote]

I'm not sure which way the Panthers will go. Love him or hate him Newton is the kind of guy that creates a buzz, and a place like Carolina could use a guy like him to put buts in seats and get the fan base energized again.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=NC_Skins;788000]I put Cam Newton on the same lines as Tim Tebow.[/quote]Then you would be wrong.
Right off the bat Cam Newton throws the ball much better then Tebow probably ever will.
Stronger arm, better release, more consisent mechanics etc.

I think I'll let Mayock himself clear up the next portion of your post:
[quote][QUOTE=You]If you want a true professional's opinion, then try Mayock's.[/quote]
[quote=MIKE MAYOCK]I said that I’ve got four [Gabbert, Locker, Newton, Mallett] guys with first round ability.[/quote]

[url=http://www.blogandtackle.net/2011/02/18/2011-nfl-scouting-combine-mike-mayock-conference-call-february-17-part-1/]2011 NFL Scouting Combine: Mike Mayock conference call (February 17); Part 1 | Blog And Tackle[/url][/QUOTE]




[quote]Based off of talent at the QB spot alone, he's not a 1st round grade.[/quote]
[I][B]Talent[/B][/I] is exactly why Cam has 1st round ability.
Cam Newton looking purely at a talent perspective like you suggest is easily a top pick.
If you can honestly look at Newton and not see or understand his raw talent you might not understand what you're looking at.

After all the bluster of your post my point remains:
[quote=30gut;787088]I think if people are honest with themselves its kinda obvious that Cam Newton is a first round talent.
But, at the same time being talented does not guarantee success for Newton or for anybody else.[/quote]

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

Mcshay and Kiper have us taking Cam

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;788123]Mcshay and Kiper have us taking Cam[/quote]

Did Kiper change his pick? Last I saw he had us taking Gabbert

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

What happened at his pro day today?

I'm sure he must have looked better than the combine workout.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=SmootSmack;788150]Did Kiper change his pick? Last I saw he had us taking Gabbert[/quote]

Maybe it was just McShay but I could have swore the scroll also said Kiper.

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;788154]What happened at his pro day today?

I'm sure he must have looked better than the combine workout.[/quote]

50-60 passing is the last I heard, also he continued to impress with his athleticism, no shocker there

Re: ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft
 

[quote=30gut;788111]I think I'll let Mayock himself clear up the next portion of your post:



[I][B]Talent[/B][/I] is exactly why Cam has 1st round ability.
Cam Newton looking purely at a talent perspective like you suggest is easily a top pick.
If you can honestly look at Newton and not see or understand his raw talent you might not understand what you're looking at.

After all the bluster of your post my point remains:[/quote]

Your point doesn't remain. If that's the case, Olympic athletes have 1st round talent to be a WR/OL/DL. Why aren't they drafted? Maybe because of ..I dunno...OTHER FACTORS?? Mayock even said that he himself would NOT take him in the first round (the same with JaMarcus R.) based off the other factors. He's a first round talent in terms of of being a incredible athlete and potential, but he's not a 1st round talent in terms of a polished QB. Does that mean nobody is going to take him? Sure there will be, just like the Raiders took JaMarcus Russell with the first pick. Idiots will always be lured by that "shiny diamond" that always ends up being a polished turd.

There is nothing he's done so far that can translate well to the NFL. Shotgun formations? One read and go offense? Running more than he passes? One year in college football? If you are trying to convince me of his "upside" and "potential" to be a great QB, then you are wasting your time. I know he has all the "potential" and "upside" there is in a QB. I've also gone on record saying that the first round isn't the place you take "projects" either, and that the person being drafted in the 1st round are generally projected day 1 starters. Do you see Cam Newton as a day 1 starter? I sure as hell don't. More like a project who'll need 1-3 years at best.


Also, Bruce Campbell was a slated 1st round "talent" to be a dominate LT in the NFL, yet he didn't go till the 4th round. Why is that? It's because teams don't want to waste a 1st round pick on a project who isn't going to help the team immediately.