Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860039]Dalton was picked up prior to our 2nd round pick. So you advocate picking Dalton or Ponder up at the #10 spot?...lol ..and you have the nerve to talk about Shanny not knowing what he's doing? Look in the mirror.



Also, I hope you realize that if we picked him, that means no Ryan Kerrigan or several of the other players currently on our roster. So you think having a rookie QB on a even shittier team was more valuable than increasing the overall quality of the team? Stop being a Dan Snyder.

Once you stop putting high expectations on this team, the better off you will be. You aren't going to have Shanny come out publicly and say our QBs suck even if he thinks so. He's also not going to say this team is trash and is in need of a major overhaul. The QB will come, give it time and take a deep breathe. This team wasn't going anywhere even with a rookie QB or vet.[/quote]


First off bro I never said MS doesn't know what he's talking about in fact I trust him still to turn us around, All I said is he could have drafted a QB last spring thats all.. And yes we could have taken Dalton at 16 where we took RK, obviously that would have been worth the pick.. I love Kerrigan DGMW but we had chances at a QB.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860039]Dalton was picked up prior to our 2nd round pick. [B]So you advocate picking Dalton or Ponder up at the #10 spot?...lol ..and you have the nerve to talk about Shanny not knowing what he's doing? Look in the mirror.[/B]



Also, I hope you realize that if we picked him, that means no Ryan Kerrigan or several of the other players currently on our roster. So you think having a rookie QB on a even shittier team was more valuable than increasing the overall quality of the team? Stop being a Dan Snyder.

Once you stop putting high expectations on this team, the better off you will be. You aren't going to have Shanny come out publicly and say our QBs suck even if he thinks so. He's also not going to say this team is trash and is in need of a major overhaul. The QB will come, give it time and take a deep breathe. This team wasn't going anywhere even with a rookie QB or vet.[/quote]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that Shanny does not know what he is doing. All I said was that they were options.

Ponder was a clear option. You are right, taking him would have meant no Kerrigan. And I like Kerrigan. But he was an option.

And we could have traded back up for Dalton in the second round. We would not have had to take him at 10.

But again, these are just options we could have taken.

Thanks for the insults though.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860042]I was never in favor of the McNabb trade so you are preaching to the choir, and I've stated that this has been Shanny's biggest mistake.

I think Smoot's reporting back then stated that VY wanted to go to Philly and the reports were even out back then prior to the open of free agency that he was heading there.

Can you imagine a oft injured Hasslebeck behind this OL?...lol THIRTY SIX YEARS OLD with a 8mil/year salary. No thanks, but I'll take Rex/Beck. It would be one thing if this team only lacked a QB but that isn't so.

Also to say those QBs would fair any better with this talent on offense is a huge stretch. If Tavaris Jackson couldn't get it done in Minnesota with Rice/Harvin/Peterson, what on earth makes you think he can do it with our scrubs?...LOL[/quote]

I actually think our OL has not been that piss poor in blocking itself...except for Jamaal Brown and depth guys like Locklear and Hurt. Hasselbeck is probably slightly more mobile than Rex and makes better decisions. But I too mentioned to folks that his term and price would be a bit too much. Not only would we have to match his price and term, we'd probably have to pay half a million more or even more than that since Hasselbeck has been a buddy of Tennessee's OC since childhood.

I agree on TJax. He's a Rex with more mobility and stronger arm, basically.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Lotus;860045]Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that Shanny does not know what he is doing. All I said was that they were options.

Ponder was a clear option. You are right, taking him would have meant no Kerrigan. And I like Kerrigan. But he was an option.

And we could have traded back up for Dalton in the second round. We would not have had to take him at 10.

But again, these are just options we could have taken.

Thanks for the insults though.[/quote]


No joke I didn't know we were talking to Joe Gibbs here

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860039]Dalton was picked up prior to our 2nd round pick. So you advocate picking Dalton or Ponder up at the #10 spot?...lol ..and you have the nerve to talk about Shanny not knowing what he's doing? Look in the mirror.



Also, I hope you realize that if we picked him, that means no Ryan Kerrigan or several of the other players currently on our roster. So you think having a rookie QB on a even shittier team was more valuable than increasing the overall quality of the team? Stop being a Dan Snyder.

Once you stop putting high expectations on this team, the better off you will be. You aren't going to have Shanny come out publicly and say our QBs suck even if he thinks so. He's also not going to say this team is trash and is in need of a major overhaul. The QB will come, give it time and take a deep breathe. This team wasn't going anywhere even with a rookie QB or vet.[/quote]

First off, I think you need to tone down the tude a little.

Everyone is just frustrated right now and looking for answers. As bad as last year was, we're looking at an even worse finish this year. When Shanahan signed on here, I doubt anyone was expecting we would lose more games than Zorn did in his 2 years, hell even more than Spurrier, and we'd be 2 years into this new regime with no long term answer at QB in place.

I think we have the right to express some concern with the way he's handled things. I'm as big of an optimist as you'll probably find here, but I'm really starting to wonder where this ship is heading.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Lotus;860045]Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that Shanny does not know what he is doing. All I said was that they were options.

Ponder was a clear option. You are right, taking him would have meant no Kerrigan. And I like Kerrigan. But he was an option.

And we could have traded back up for Dalton in the second round. We would not have had to take him at 10.

But again, these are just options we could have taken.

Thanks for the insults though.[/quote]

I haven't insulted you so stop playing the victim role. That statement was for anybody acting like Shanny has no idea what he's doing.

Ponder wasn't a "clear" option. He was a slated 2nd round talent, and it was widely seen as a reach by the Vikings to take him at the 12th spot.

You are grasping at straws just trying to tear down Shanny. Instead of being a hatter, how about you realize this isn't going to happen overnight. You don't grab a QB just for the sake of grabbing you. If the guy doesn't fit you system, you don't take him. If he's a 2nd round talent, you don't take him in the top 10. Those types of panic moves are what sinks franchises.

Which was worse last year? Offense or Defense? Defense. So what did we need to address that year? Defense. Which is worse this year? Offense. Guess which side we'll most likely address this upcoming draft.

I'm a impatient mofo, but some of you make me want to strangle you. You expect success overnight from a decade (and more) worth of mismanagement.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;860047]I actually think our OL has not been that piss poor in blocking itself...except for Jamaal Brown and depth guys like Locklear and Hurt. Hasselbeck is probably slightly more mobile than Rex and makes better decisions. But I too mentioned to folks that his term and price would be a bit too much. Not only would we have to match his price and term, we'd probably have to pay half a million more or even more than that since Hasselbeck has been a buddy of Tennessee's OC since childhood.

I agree on TJax. He's a Rex with more mobility and stronger arm, basically.[/quote]


Our starting football team was a competitive team that could have easily been a 9-7 squad. That said, our depth sucks big time and it showed. Also, the number of injuries plays a huge factor in this as well. We don't have the type of QB to overcome the losses we have. Rex and Beck are limited big time and need all the help they can get.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Mattyk;860059]First off, I think you need to tone down the tude a little.

Everyone is just frustrated right now and looking for answers. As bad as last year was, we're looking at an even worse finish this year. When Shanahan signed on here, I doubt anyone was expecting we would lose more games than Zorn did in his 2 years, hell even more than Spurrier, and we'd be 2 years into this new regime with no long term answer at QB in place.

I think we have the right to express some concern with the way he's handled things. I'm as big of an optimist as you'll probably find here, but I'm really starting to wonder where this ship is heading.[/quote]


I'm not meaning to bring any sort of attitude, but I'm more annoyed with our fan base then I am our starting QBs. I apologize if you are all offended, but it gets old really.

Had the guy not built up our defense, and grabbed a rookie QB, we'd still be just as bad on offense and our defense would be even worse. At that point, I imagine most would be talking shit about Shanny and Haslett (see last year) ability to run a defense.

It's never ending really. The man is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I take 0 satisfaction of seeing Beck getting buried in sacks or Rex throwing passes to the other team, but there is a brighter day on the horizon.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860068][B]I haven't insulted you so stop playing the victim role[/B]. That statement was for anybody acting like Shanny has no idea what he's doing.

Ponder wasn't a "clear" option. He was a slated 2nd round talent, and it was widely seen as a reach by the Vikings to take him at the 12th spot.

You are grasping at straws just trying to tear down Shanny. Instead of being a hatter, how about you realize this isn't going to happen overnight. You don't grab a QB just for the sake of grabbing you. If the guy doesn't fit you system, you don't take him. If he's a 2nd round talent, you don't take him in the top 10. Those types of panic moves are what sinks franchises.

Which was worse last year? Offense or Defense? Defense. So what did we need to address that year? Defense. Which is worse this year? Offense. Guess which side we'll most likely address this upcoming draft.

I'm a impatient mofo, but some of you make me want to strangle you. You expect success overnight from a decade (and more) worth of mismanagement.[/quote]

lol :doh:

Chillout NC. your a good guy, but you come across too brash and arrogant to say the least.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860068]I haven't insulted you so stop playing the victim role. That statement was for anybody acting like Shanny has no idea what he's doing.

Ponder wasn't a "clear" option. He was a slated 2nd round talent, and it was widely seen as a reach by the Vikings to take him at the 12th spot.

You are grasping at straws just trying to tear down Shanny. Instead of being a hatter, how about you realize this isn't going to happen overnight. You don't grab a QB just for the sake of grabbing you. If the guy doesn't fit you system, you don't take him. If he's a 2nd round talent, you don't take him in the top 10. Those types of panic moves are what sinks franchises.

Which was worse last year? Offense or Defense? Defense. So what did we need to address that year? Defense. Which is worse this year? Offense. Guess which side we'll most likely address this upcoming draft.

I'm a impatient mofo, but some of you make me want to strangle you. You expect success overnight from a decade (and more) worth of mismanagement.[/quote]
Disagree slightly here. We committed our top two picks to defense mainly because they were damn good prospects according to our scouts, not mainly because of the performance of D in the year prior. Identifying positions of need is good and all, but grading the prospects before taking them is absolutely necessary.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859963]His excuses for the recent losing streak is that the supporting cast is consistently failing his hand picked QBs.

Whether that's accurate or not (and since I'm not doing game reviews...), Shanahan is wrong one way or another. Either he failed to build even an adequate supporting cast that can support Rex Grossman or the next QB, or he's excusing poor quarterback play by miscasting the blame.[/quote]

I think it's a bit of both. I'll admit Grossman is not the franchise QB we want him to be because his track record proves that. Looking back at how he was in Chicago and how he was second string in Houston tells it all. But I do see a lot of the INT's as not being his fault and is why I said Beck would not fair well either. Tipped passes, routes not being finished, receivers not going up after the ball and instead letting the defenders do it, receivers falling down on their routes, etc. etc.

We need a QB, one who's young and can be groomed for the future, but if we had any of the QB's taken in last yrs draft I doubt there would be a major difference. Look at it this way.... experience wise we have Moss (who now is injured) and Stallworth (who really doesn't have a clue). You can mention Armstrong but he's only got one year under his belt, Austin is getting more time this year then last, Paul is being used for his blocking ability, Hankerson finally see's the field and gets injured. Yea they picked up the ex Texan who caught a pass or two Sun but otherwise no one has experience other then Moss and Stallworth.

TE wise Cooley has been out, and Davis really only has about 1 yrs worth of playing time since Cooley got hurt last year up to now. So he's kinda learning also. The young guys are getting playing time like we wanted but this is what we have to deal with until they get better.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860072]I'm not meaning to bring any sort of attitude, but I'm more annoyed with our fan base then I am our starting QBs. I apologize if you are all offended, but it gets old really.

Had the guy not built up our defense, and grabbed a rookie QB, we'd still be just as bad on offense and our defense would be even worse. At that point, I imagine most would be talking shit about Shanny and Haslett (see last year) ability to run a defense.

It's never ending really. The man is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I take 0 satisfaction of seeing Beck getting buried in sacks or Rex throwing passes to the other team, but there is a brighter day on the horizon.[/quote]


You do realize you are apart of that FAN base right.. Like I said I hope Shanny stays and have all the faith in him I was JS we had chances at drafting a QB, Oh and what has Mike done without John Elway? So it's not like he's the greatest coach that can't make mistakes.. I do think he's the best coach we've had here in a LONG time.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860068]I haven't insulted you so stop playing the victim role. That statement was for anybody acting like Shanny has no idea what he's doing.

Ponder wasn't a "clear" option. He was a slated 2nd round talent, and it was widely seen as a reach by the Vikings to take him at the 12th spot.

You are grasping at straws just trying to tear down Shanny. Instead of being a hatter, how about you realize this isn't going to happen overnight. You don't grab a QB just for the sake of grabbing you. If the guy doesn't fit you system, you don't take him. If he's a 2nd round talent, you don't take him in the top 10. Those types of panic moves are what sinks franchises.

Which was worse last year? Offense or Defense? Defense. So what did we need to address that year? Defense. Which is worse this year? Offense. Guess which side we'll most likely address this upcoming draft.

I'm a impatient mofo, but some of you make me want to strangle you. You expect success overnight from a decade (and more) worth of mismanagement.[/quote]


Very well said. I agree with you. Fans here expect over night success and they point to clubs like the 49ers, Bengals, Bills, Lions, etc. etc. but they fail to realize those teams were not trading away draft picks for other teams cast offs, those teams had coach's who would develope players, those teams had a decent foundation the year before even though they did poorly. The Skins have no foundation. They are starting to get one but as you said it takes time and not 6-8 games worth of time, we are talking probably 3-4 yrs to get this team turned around with decent back ups and starters that know the plays inside and out.

Why didn't they jump on a QB this year? because as you said some would have been a reach, so they dropped back and took safer picks. They fixed one side of the ball but small tweeks are needed. I think they are hoping to have a foundation built for whom ever is brought in as QB so the "team" offensively can all help him be successful and develope vs. throwing him on the field taking hits risking injuries the whole while trying to learn the plays along with the supporting cast.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Mattyk;860059]First off, I think you need to tone down the tude a little.
[B]
Everyone is just frustrated right now and looking for answers. As bad as last year was, we're looking at an even worse finish this year. When Shanahan signed on here, I doubt anyone was expecting we would lose more games than Zorn did in his 2 years, hell even more than Spurrier, and we'd be 2 years into this new regime with no long term answer at QB in place.

I think we have the right to express some concern with the way he's handled things. I'm as big of an optimist as you'll probably find here, but I'm really starting to wonder where this ship is heading.[/B] [/quote]

You're much more the optimist than I am, but this pretty much sums it up to a T.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;860079]You do realize you are apart of that FAN base right.. Like I said I hope Shanny stays and have all the faith in him I was JS we had chances at drafting a QB, Oh and what has Mike done without John Elway? So it's not like he's the greatest coach that can't make mistakes.. I do think he's the best coach we've had here in a LONG time.[/quote]

Yes I do, and it's not to the whole fan base. It's the ones that Chris Cooley talked about in his interview on the FAN. It seems we are so impatient and want instant success. We overvalue our players (cooley for a 1st and 3rd amirite?). We want to change coaches at the drop of a dime. We want to bring in all the big money free agents we can. We want to blast Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato for doing the exact same thing we are crying for.


I'm for some consistency and some cultural change. I think Mike has brought us a long way from where we were and has done 5 times the job that Gibbs 2.0 did. (that's solely my opinion) The records might not show it right now, but wait till the playing field becomes equal and then judge.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860039]Dalton was picked up prior to our 2nd round pick. So you advocate picking Dalton or Ponder up at the #10 spot?...lol .[B].and you have the nerve to talk about Shanny not knowing what he's doing? Look in the mirror.[/B]

Also, I hope you realize that if we picked him, that means no Ryan Kerrigan or several of the other players currently on our roster. So you think having a rookie QB on a even shittier team was more valuable than increasing the overall quality of the team? [B]Stop being a Dan Snyder.[/B]
[/quote]

[quote=NC_Skins;860068] [B]I haven't insulted you so stop playing the victim role.[/B] [/quote]

Thanks again. And have a nice day.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;860076]Disagree slightly here. We committed our top two picks to defense mainly because they were damn good prospects according to our scouts, not mainly because of the performance of D in the year prior. Identifying positions of need is good and all, but grading the prospects before taking them is absolutely necessary.[/quote]

I think we all can pretty much assume the scouting department did something right and had these guys on a list of players the team should take if available. No one here will honestly know what the game plan was unless someone from the coaching staff comes out and says "this was our plan" or "we had a plan but because certain players were picked we had to look at BPA at other positions of need."

I think they knew Carter would be gone so they needed a replacement...Kerrigan, they knew this defense needed a NT Jenkins. Now I know some will say he's not NT material he was brought in to be a DE... whatever. When he was picked all the commentators even said the team is going to try to utilize him at NT but if he doesn't work out he will be a nice DE, another big body for teams to account for.

I'm actually happy with how our draft went other then I'd like to have had Dalton. Now the defense is somewhat shored up. They need to only fix a few pieces like FS and add better CB's. The offense is better but people don't want to look past the losing to see it. Our OL was performing 10x better at the begining of the season prior to all the injuries, the RB's wer doing well and getting yards with a healthy OL, Davis was looking like a real deal until he got injured and I think he's been playing gimpy lately, and unfortunatly all the young WR's are being forced to play but that should only benifit the team in the long run because they will have had some in game experience for next year when the team can hopefully get a more qualified QB.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Chico23231;860074]lol :doh:

Chillout NC. your a good guy, but you come across too brash and arrogant to say the least.[/quote]


I admit that. I try my best not to, and I've toned it down a bit in the football section at least. Lately though, I think I'm about to burst a blood vessel for all the calls to fire Shanny.


I apologize to Skinsfan and Lotus. I misdirected some fan anger onto them unjustly.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;860080]Very well said. I agree with you. Fans here expect over night success and they point to clubs like the 49ers, Bengals, Bills, Lions, etc. etc. but they fail to realize those teams were not trading away draft picks for other teams cast offs, those teams had coach's who would develope players, those teams had a decent foundation the year before even though they did poorly. The Skins have no foundation. They are starting to get one but as you said it takes time and not 6-8 games worth of time, we are talking probably 3-4 yrs to get this team turned around with decent back ups and starters that know the plays inside and out.

Why didn't they jump on a QB this year? because as you said some would have been a reach, so they dropped back and took safer picks. They fixed one side of the ball but small tweeks are needed. I think they are hoping to have a foundation built for whom ever is brought in as QB so the "team" offensively can all help him be successful and develope vs. throwing him on the field taking hits risking injuries the whole while trying to learn the plays along with the supporting cast.[/quote]
Actually, Matt Stafford's supporting cast was pretty bad. Millen left the cupboard almost completely bare. But he was a good enough prospect for the Lions to take.

There is no set formula as to which part of the roster gets addressed first. It depends primarily on the quality of the prospects. Sometimes QB gets taken first because he grades out so well. Other times, a different position gets addressed because a prospect at that position grades out well.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

I'm not expecting overnight results. I have many, many posts here which counsel patience. In fact, I'd like to point out that the Lions had a pretty grim season a year ago because they were rebuilding and starting inexperienced players. Now they are competitive. Likewise we are having a grim season and starting many inexperienced players. Perhaps it will pay off for us next year, too.

But to give Shanny a pass and say that he had no chance to acquire a decent QB is simply not true.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Lotus;860087]But to give Shanny a pass and say that he had no chance to acquire a decent QB is simply not true.[/quote]


My only qualm with this is some of the options you think are better, may not have been better on our squad. You can say they were better, but there is no way to really know. Had he brought in those other options and it not panned out (aka..mcnabb) would you have praised him for it? Probably not.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860085]I admit that. I try my best not to, and I've toned it down a bit in the football section at least. Lately though, I think I'm about to burst a blood vessel for all the calls to fire Shanny.


I apologize to Skinsfan and Lotus. I misdirected some fan anger onto them unjustly.[/quote]

Fair enough. No problem.

BTW I have spoken AGAINST firing Shanny right now.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860082]

I'm for some consistency and some cultural change.[B] I think Mike has brought us a long way from where we were and has done 5 times the job that Gibbs 2.0 did. (that's solely my opinion)[/B] The records might not show it right now, but wait till the playing field becomes equal and then judge.[/quote]

As much as I am a Gibbs fan I think we are doing better with MS as well only because he's keeping his system in place and allowing the players to have time to get better in it/develope. Gibbs freaked out and brought in Al Saunders which I think the team would have been better off with out him.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Lotus;860087]I'm not expecting overnight results. I have many, many posts here which counsel patience. In fact, I'd like to point out that the Lions had a pretty grim season a year ago because they were rebuilding and starting inexperienced players. Now they are competitive. Likewise we are having a grim season and starting many inexperienced players. Perhaps it will pay off for us next year, too.

But to give Shanny a pass and say that he had no chance to acquire a decent QB is simply not true.[/quote]


True, he had a chance. But then the question becomes, was that chance worth taking? Once you commit to a QB, you're stuck with that commitment for 2-3 years and you'll pass up future QBs in these subsequent draft classes.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860082]Yes I do, and it's not to the whole fan base. It's the ones that Chris Cooley talked about in his interview on the FAN. It seems we are so impatient and want instant success. We overvalue our players (cooley for a 1st and 3rd amirite?). We want to change coaches at the drop of a dime. We want to bring in all the big money free agents we can. We want to blast Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato for doing the exact same thing we are crying for.


I'm for some consistency and some cultural change. I think Mike has brought us a long way from where we were and has done 5 times the job that Gibbs 2.0 did. (that's solely my opinion) The records might not show it right now, but wait till the playing field becomes equal and then judge.[/quote]



I agree thats why I'm waiting on this team to get MS's players then we will be ready

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;860086]Actually, Matt Stafford's supporting cast was pretty bad. Millen left the cupboard almost completely bare. But he was a good enough prospect for the Lions to take.

There is no set formula as to which part of the roster gets addressed first. It depends primarily on the quality of the prospects. Sometimes QB gets taken first because he grades out so well. Other times, a different position gets addressed because a prospect at that position grades out well.[/quote]

Which is kinda the point I'm making. I think the QB they would have wanted was not available so they took BPA at a position of need. I can't blame them for that. Under Cerrato we would have seen BPA overall when in reality you do that when your team is pretty much set not when you have glaring holes all over the place.

and again your right there is no formula some teams pick a QB and develope a team around him, some teams get the supporting cast set then go out and pick a QB who will have support to help him on the field.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Lotus;860087]I'm not expecting overnight results. I have many, many posts here which counsel patience. In fact, I'd like to point out that the Lions had a pretty grim season a year ago because they were rebuilding and starting inexperienced players. Now they are competitive. Likewise we are having a grim season and starting many inexperienced players. Perhaps it will pay off for us next year, too.

But to give Shanny a pass and say that he had no chance to acquire a decent QB is simply not true.[/quote]

From a fans perspective your right. But what we fans don't know is what QB did the team feel they would go after if available? was that QB available when it came for their pick? were they willing to settle for one of the other QB's on the list? my example is when I mentioned Dalton people here said I was crazy and pretty much said he wouldn't be worth drafting until round 4 or 5. When I pointed out that the pre draft magazines had him listed as a 2nd/3rd rounder people here laughed at me more. Then Cinci took him in the 2nd round and he's played if not 2nd round material then better.

I'm not tooting my horn, I'm trying to say that perhaps the coaches looked at some of the remaining QB's like you guys did and instead of waisting a draft pick decided to go after the next BPA at a position of need for the team. Kerrigan was available so they took him to replace Carter, Jenkins was available so they took him to replace AH.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;860082]I'm for some consistency and some cultural change. [B]I think Mike has brought us a long way from where we were and has done 5 times the job that Gibbs 2.0 did.[/B] (that's solely my opinion) The records might not show it right now, but wait till the playing field becomes equal and then judge.[/quote]I don't see how the playing field for MS is more difficult than what Gibbs walked into after Spurrier. Gibbs made the playoffs in 2 of 4 years. Gibbs' teams rose to the occassion late in the season with 4 & 5 game win streaks to make those playoff runs.

Gibbs' big mistakes during his tenure were relying too much on personnel decisons from Al Saunders (ARE) and Greg Williams (Arch) and that he over-valued Campbell. But Gibbs did a HoF job turning the franchise around from where it was. I'll always wonder what could've been if the ST tragedy hadn't happened.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;860091]True, he had a chance. But then the question becomes, was that chance worth taking? Once you commit to a QB, you're stuck with that commitment for 2-3 years and you'll pass up future QBs in these subsequent draft classes.[/quote]

This is definitely true for high picks. But we still could have taken a developmental prospect lower.

And, although the positive value of what we actually did in the draft is clear, part of me still wonders how things might be different now and into the future if we had taken Ponder instead. Certainly he was overvalued pick-wise in the moment by the Vikes, but if he turns out to be a really good one, he'll end up being worth their 12th - or our 10th - pick.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;860095]From a fans perspective your right. But what we fans don't know is what QB did the team feel they would go after if available? was that QB available when it came for their pick? were they willing to settle for one of the other QB's on the list? my example is when I mentioned Dalton people here said I was crazy and pretty much said he wouldn't be worth drafting until round 4 or 5. When I pointed out that the pre draft magazines had him listed as a 2nd/3rd rounder people here laughed at me more. Then Cinci took him in the 2nd round and he's played if not 2nd round material then better.

I'm not tooting my horn, I'm trying to say that perhaps the coaches looked at some of the remaining QB's like you guys did and instead of waisting a draft pick decided to go after the next BPA at a position of need for the team. Kerrigan was available so they took him to replace Carter, Jenkins was available so they took him to replace AH.[/quote]

Good points.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Lotus;860098]This is definitely true for high picks. But we still could have taken a developmental prospect lower.

And, although the positive value of what we actually did in the draft is clear, part of me still wonders how things might be different now and into the future if we had taken Ponder instead. Certainly he was overvalued pick-wise in the moment by the Vikes, but if he turns out to be a really good one, he'll end up being worth their 12th - or our 10th - pick.[/quote]

I'm not sure Ponder was overvalued, many people expected him to go top 15. But what's kind of not discussed is that the Redskins didn't trade down with the intent of passing on Ponder. They knew the Jaguars liked Gabbert so they passed on him by trading down (and with Jacksonville), but they took a gamble that maybe, just maybe, Ponder would fall to them and they could add picks and get Ponder.

I'm not saying Ponder was the choice over Kerrigan had both been there at 16, that I don't know. But they didn't trade down with the intent of adding Kerrigan. They traded down with the intent of adding picks.

They knew the only team that might take Ponder between 10 and 16 was the Vikings. And in fact the Vikings were seriously considering Kerrigan.

Of course, all this would have been moot had Locker been there at 10.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;860093]Which is kinda the point I'm making. I think the QB they would have wanted was not available so they took BPA at a position of need. I can't blame them for that. Under Cerrato we would have seen BPA overall when in reality you do that when your team is pretty much set not when you have glaring holes all over the place.

and again your right there is no formula some teams pick a QB and develope a team around him, some teams get the supporting cast set then go out and pick a QB who will have support to help him on the field.[/quote]
The problem with Cerrato was not really BPA, it was his grading system of prospects and willingness to cough up picks in trades. Malcolm Kelly and Thomas were picked to address a need for a threat across Moss.
He was even going to trade up one spot to take Orakpo, which shows how little he valued holding onto picks.

More likely than not, we would not have picked [I]at all[/I] in the 2nd or 3rd round with him at the helm. He'd probably do another Jason Taylor trade and we ultimately get close to NOTHING.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;860110]I'm not sure Ponder was overvalued, many people expected him to go top 15. But what's kind of not discussed is that the Redskins didn't trade down with the intent of passing on Ponder. They knew the Jaguars liked Gabbert so they passed on him by trading down (and with Jacksonville), but they took a gamble that maybe, just maybe, Ponder would fall to them and they could add picks and get Ponder.

I'm not saying Ponder was the choice over Kerrigan had both been there at 16, that I don't know. But they didn't trade down with the intent of adding Kerrigan. They traded down with the intent of adding picks.

They knew the only team that might take Ponder between 10 and 16 was the Vikings. And in fact the Vikings were seriously considering Kerrigan.

Of course, all this would have been moot had Locker been there at 10.[/quote]


and quite honestly maybe the coaching staff didn't like Ponder as much as we fans did. Maybe Ponder was not even on their radar because maybe they didn't feel he fit the scheme. Just saying.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;860096]I don't see how the playing field for MS is more difficult than what Gibbs walked into after Spurrier. Gibbs made the playoffs in 2 of 4 years. Gibbs' teams rose to the occassion late in the season with 4 & 5 game win streaks to make those playoff runs.

Gibbs' big mistakes during his tenure were relying too much on personnel decisons from Al Saunders (ARE) and Greg Williams (Arch) and that he over-valued Campbell. But Gibbs did a HoF job turning the franchise around from where it was. I'll always wonder what could've been if the ST tragedy hadn't happened.[/quote]

We made some big trades and FA pickups that helped us in those runs. Moss, Portis, Brunell came in trades. Marcus Washington, Springs, etc came in FA. Our trades have flopped and the FA pickings are slimmer or not worth taking.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;860112]The problem with Cerrato was not really BPA, it was his grading system of prospects and willingness to cough up picks in trades.[B] Malcolm Kelly and Thomas were picked to address a need for a threat across Moss. [/B]
He was even going to trade up one spot to take Orakpo, which shows how little he valued holding onto picks.

More likely than not, we would not have picked [I]at all[/I] in the 2nd or 3rd round with him at the helm. He'd probably do another Jason Taylor trade and we ultimately get close to NOTHING.[/quote]

Your right but a ton of other teams passed on them and we took them. I wonder why? Your right I think it was their grading system.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;860110]I'm not sure Ponder was overvalued, many people expected him to go top 15. But what's kind of not discussed is that the Redskins didn't trade down with the intent of passing on Ponder. They knew the Jaguars liked Gabbert so they passed on him by trading down (and with Jacksonville), but they took a gamble that maybe, just maybe, Ponder would fall to them and they could add picks and get Ponder.

I'm not saying Ponder was the choice over Kerrigan had both been there at 16, that I don't know. But they didn't trade down with the intent of adding Kerrigan. They traded down with the intent of adding picks.

They knew the only team that might take Ponder between 10 and 16 was the Vikings. And in fact the Vikings were seriously considering Kerrigan.

Of course, all this would have been moot had Locker been there at 10.[/quote]meh on the guys in the 2011 draft. Much higher caliber talent this year. Luck, Barkley, Jones, RG3 (I hope he comes out) and some good mid-round development QBs. CB looks to be a strong position this year too.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;860113]and quite honestly maybe the coaching staff didn't like Ponder as much as we fans did. Maybe Ponder was not even on their radar because maybe they didn't feel he fit the scheme. Just saying.[/quote]

He definitely was. They heavily scouted him all year. But not high enough on him to take him at 10

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;860116]meh on the guys in the 2011 draft. Much higher caliber talent this year. Luck, Barkley, Jones, RG3 (I hope he comes out) and some good mid-round development QBs. CB looks to be a strong position this year too.[/quote]

Well, I do believe if they are top 5 and if someone other than the Colts have the 1st pick we'll make a big push for Luck. What we'll offer I don't know

I've heard they're not interested in Barkley, but I can't see why not

No idea on Jones

RG3 isn't expected to come out, but if he does the interest is high

Haven't heard they're interested in Kellen Moore, or in others words, I've heard they are not (again, I don't know why not)

Don't know about guys like Foles, Lindley and Cousins

Interest in Tannehill and Harnish

That's all I got

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;860116]meh on the guys in the 2011 draft. Much higher caliber talent this year. Luck, Barkley, Jones, RG3 (I hope he comes out) and some good mid-round development QBs. CB looks to be a strong position this year too.[/quote]

Interior OL got some ballers in there too for the draft. like to see us spend a pick there

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;860113]and quite honestly maybe the coaching staff didn't like Ponder as much as we fans did. Maybe Ponder was not even on their radar because maybe they didn't feel he fit the scheme. Just saying.[/quote]

Out of that group last year, I liked Ponder and Dalton the most. I was hoping they'd grab either one of those two with our pick in the 2nd round.