Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Giantone;1075626]Just putting out a question to all , do you think Jerry Jones would trade with Cleveland for Johnny Manzel ?[/quote]

He could have had him for a draft pick if he wanted him bad enough.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Mattyk;1075620]If Rak gets the same number of rush opportunities that other top pass rushers get, no reason he can't put up some big numbers.[/quote]

I think we've seen a large enough of a sample size to know that Rak isn't Aldon Smith or Robert Quinn. Maybe the new OLB coach helps him develop more pass rush moves.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

Make or break year for Rak. Gotta say I think we made the right move with the franchise tag.

We certainly didn't have many other options.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1075634]I think we've seen a large enough of a sample size to know that Rak isn't Aldon Smith or Robert Quinn. Maybe the new OLB coach helps him develop more pass rush moves.[/quote]

I don't think it's about moves as it is opportunities. It's been well documented he doesn't rush as often as the other big sack number guys in the league.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Mattyk;1075636]I don't think it's about moves as it is opportunities. It's been well documented he doesn't rush as often as the other big sack number guys in the league.[/quote]

...but when your new head coach pretty much says he wants to see more from you as a player. That statement said everything to me in my opinion. He believes the guy is too talented to be performing at the level he is when he could do so much more. Didn't Smoot say something along the line that Rakpo doesn't think he needs to work on his game? (or something to that effect)

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075635]Make or break year for Rak. Gotta say I think we made the right move with the franchise tag.

We certainly didn't have many other options.[/quote]

yes i am comfortable with where we are at with rak. it seems we couldnt get him to agree to a team friendly deal (if one was even offered) so he has a year to prove he is worth a player friendly contract.

if he plays great, we cut a big check and we retain a great player in his prime.

if he plays average, we offer him FMV and let him walk if he doesnt take it.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11220817/greg-hardy-carolina-panthers-guilty-2-counts-domestic-violence]Greg Hardy of Carolina Panthers guilty on 2 counts of domestic violence - ESPN[/url]

Looks like we got a conviction, crickets from Goodell...

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075662][URL="http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11220817/greg-hardy-carolina-panthers-guilty-2-counts-domestic-violence"]Greg Hardy of Carolina Panthers guilty on 2 counts of domestic violence - ESPN[/URL]

Looks like we got a conviction, crickets from Goodell...[/quote]


What is it you want him to say ?

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[url=http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=washington-redskins&id=8930]NFL What to expect: Redskins' run game - ESPN[/url]

An interesting tidbit:

[quote]As he improved his tracks on runs, the Redskins’ run game flourished even more. Morris’ ability to plant and cut and make the first defender miss meant the run game would work even minus the zone read aspect.

Last season, the Redskins ranked third in the NFL in yards per rush (4.78). They averaged 5.33 yards on zone read carries and 4.65 on traditional runs; the latter number would have left them tied for third. [/quote]

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

Why does sports need an award show?

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075686]Why does sports need an award show?[/quote]

Mickey Mouse wants his money.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075662][URL="http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11220817/greg-hardy-carolina-panthers-guilty-2-counts-domestic-violence"]Greg Hardy of Carolina Panthers guilty on 2 counts of domestic violence - ESPN[/URL]

Looks like we got a conviction, crickets from Goodell...[/quote]

He is lucky he didn't get jail time .

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1075686]Why does sports need an award show?[/QUOTE]


To get to the other side?

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[QUOTE=budw38;1075690]He is lucky he didn't get jail time .[/QUOTE]


Professional athlete get jail time for domestic violence? Come on.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=donofriose;1075688]Mickey Mouse wants his money.[/quote]

He won't get it from the ESPYs

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075662][url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11220817/greg-hardy-carolina-panthers-guilty-2-counts-domestic-violence]Greg Hardy of Carolina Panthers guilty on 2 counts of domestic violence - ESPN[/url]

Looks like we got a conviction, crickets from Goodell...[/quote]


The Steve Smith Curse

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1075705]The Steve Smith Curse[/quote]

Rae Carruth?

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1075686]Why does sports need an award show?[/QUOTE]


Why do movies, music, TV, etc.?

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Mattyk;1075708]Why do movies, music, TV, etc.?[/quote]

Well the point is the awards are already given on the field determined in competition and then individual awards are giving by the league. I heard Drake was funny though...

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075706]Rae Carruth?[/quote]

Rae Carruth was tragic but they reached the Super Bowl since then. This Steve Smith curse is gonna bring them down. If they lose Greg Hardy for important games etc. Then I know the Steve Smith curse is real. He means too much to the Panthers for them to dump him like that. You don't replace Steve Smith with Avant and Cotchery.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1075709]Well the point is the awards are already given on the field determined in competition and then individual awards are giving by the league. I heard Drake was funny though...[/QUOTE]


I hear ya, in the end it's just about entertainment and a chance for the industry to pat itself on the back, like any other award show.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1075711]Rae Carruth was tragic but they reached the Super Bowl since then. This Steve Smith curse is gonna bring them down. If they lose Greg Hardy for important games etc. Then I know the Steve Smith curse is real. He means too much to the Panthers for them to dump him like that. You don't replace Steve Smith with Avant and Cotchery.[/quote]

True, Carolina has alot of problems along that O-line too. They are going to have a tough time this year. I think Tampa could surprise in that division and New Orleans is still the team to beat, I think Atlanta could bounce back a lil, but not enough to make the playoffs.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075714]True, Carolina has alot of problems along that O-line too. They are going to have a tough time this year. I think Tampa could surprise in that division and New Orleans is still the team to beat, I think Atlanta could bounce back a lil, but not enough to make the playoffs.[/quote]

I can't believe Gettlmen their GM is starting this season with a question at left tackle. Even Vinny is not that stupid. If you don;t have a left tackle that is your first pick. He picked a receiver a classic mistake.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1075709]Well the point is the awards are already given on the field determined in competition and then individual awards are giving by the league. I heard Drake was funny though...[/QUOTE]


Espys are the best of the best awards though. Championships are determined and awarded on the field - yes. Which championship was most heartfelt or deserved of special recognition is determined by the espys. I have no problem with it. That being said I never watch them.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Southpaw;1075622]The Redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not 'elite'. That's how you end up with guys like Reed Doughty, Josh Wilson, and Rob Jackson as starters.

There's no point in letting well above average, home grown talent walk when you have nothing better(at this point in time) to replace it. Is saving some money really worth downgrading an already terrible defense?[/quote]

Hrm... i'm not sure how much I believe the idea that the redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not elite... over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

I do recall it being because the player had a gripe with the fans, or the organization. Or because the player's wife had an issue with a certain mistress in the area. Or because the FO thought some top-dollar free agent that was past his prime would be a better person to pick up.

I also recall the FO having a history of completely avoiding the process of acquiring young, raw talent and developing it.

The elite teams let players that want too much money walk all the time. They also have a system in place that grooms young, raw talent players so that when a person needs to be let go because of their contract demands there is someone ready to step into place. They also have a solid roster all the way around that affords them the ability to look at any one single player and say "We can win without you." (minus QB and in a few rare cases another skill position.)

The redskins have not had that since Gibbs 1. If letting Orakpo walk is such a bad idea it's only a bad idea because Redskins have yet again failed to bring in a young player and groom them for eventually taking over the position, forcing them into having to decide between way over paying a player or running with a significantly lower-potential person. Par for the course. I'm hopping Allen's #1 priority is to change that about the team, but it's his first year in total control so it's far to early to expect that right now.

And you guys can cite the rush stats as Orakpo being held back - but he's had opportunities to make plays and more often than not he fails, for whatever reason. I'm absolutely willing to concede that he's been used wrong - we've been a square peg/round hole organization for a while now (another thing I hope Allen fixes.) But you just flat out don't see players blossom this late in their career very often, so I remain skeptical that he's going to put on the performance worth the money he is demanding.

This isn't an issue of the team not keeping 'home grown' talent. It's an issue of over paying for a guy or not, and the fact that we don't have a process in place that leaves us very many options via younger players that have been groomed.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

Good post tshile. I agree with you. The NFL is not littered with former Redskins that are playing at a high level for other teams.
The consistently good teams do let a certain % of FA players go if they are asking for big $. Salary Cap is the worst thing ever created.
Our bigger problem in the past has been weak FO, poor drafts/player evaluation (including FA's) and poor player development (coaching/mentoring). We are miles ahead of where we were with Vinny Ceratto/Dan Snyder GM duo. But we need to keep improving.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

So which is better:

A: to slightly overpay a player whose play has suggested he can put up elite stats but hasn't yet been given an opportunity by the coaches to do so, or...

B: let said player walk, keeping in mind there are no viable options to replace him.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=SirLK26;1075723]So which is better:

A: to slightly overpay a player whose play has suggested he can put up elite stats but hasn't yet been given an opportunity by the coaches to do so, or...

B: let said player walk, keeping in mind there are no viable options to replace him.[/quote]

i do not agree with your summation with A.

but, to speak to the spirit of your post...

if the options are overpay for a guy because you have no other option, or have a system that allows you to let players walk when they want more than your worth.... give me the later every day of the week.

the fact that the redskins have had a history of being in the former and (to me) seem to be trying to get away from that and become a team that has young talent they groom, does not mean we should abandon the current movement to go back to the old way of doing business because... well... this year we just really need to do it that old way because we have this really good list of justifications...

no. enough with the crappy business model. i get that it sells jerseys and puts butts in seats but have we honestly not had enough of that being the #1 driver of decisions?

it seems to me that the best interest of the organization is to move away from over paying a few guys and move to the other side of the spectrum. i fail to see how overpaying for orakpo does anything other than continue down a path we've been going down since 1999.

a path i thought everyone agreed was a dead end and what took a once proud franchise and made it an annual laughing stock.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

I think it was Chico that mentioned that quite simply....rak has a year to prove he is elite. If he does than pay him. If he doesnt than let nature take its course.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

I'm having a hard time thinking of any times in the past when we've overpayed our own free agents(I haven't been a fan as long as most of you, so perhaps my memory just doesn't go back far enough). Overpayed for other teams' free agents, yes. Let our own good players walk, yes.

But paying Orakpo, or any others we've drafted and developed, is very different from paying another teams' free agent, and I don't think it follows that "crappy business model" mentioned. It's not nearly as much of a gamble, for one thing.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=tshile;1075719]Hrm... i'm not sure how much I believe the idea that the redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not elite... over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.[/quote]

LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=tshile;1075724]enough with the crappy business model. i get that it sells jerseys and puts butts in seats but have we honestly not had enough of that being the #1 driver of decisions? [/quote]

If the new business model is not paying anyone, good luck attracting or holding on to talent.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[QUOTE=Southpaw;1075727]LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.[/QUOTE]


Landry was hurt all the time and Rogers if I remembered correctly wanted out at all costs. Pierce was a huge mistake imo.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

Pierce got more up front $$ from the Giants, but it's not like the Skins didn't make an effort to keep him.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Southpaw;1075728]If the new business model is not paying anyone, good luck attracting or holding on to talent.[/quote]

Agreed. There's something to be said for showing your own some love.

[quote=punch it in;1075729]Landry was hurt all the time and Rogers if I remembered correctly wanted out at all costs. Pierce was a huge mistake imo.[/quote]

Don't forget Ryan Clark, another mistake.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

Think it's time to move on to the past. Rak is still on the team, let's let him put it on the field and after the season we can see where the chips fall. If he performs he we'll be paid.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Southpaw;1075727]LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.[/quote]

Landry wouldn't have a surgery the team wanted him to have. His health was an issue. It wasn't an issue of skill or anything like that. And when you look at how his career has gone since leaving...

Rogers wanted out.

I was a bit too young to really remember Pierce and the circumstances surrounding him leaving. If he fits the mold I'll trust you on it.

You've got 1 guy.

That's far from a trend of not paying guys...

You brought up Clark... they let him go not because they didn't want to pay him, but because they wanted to blow their wad on Adam Archuleta...

So, aside from your one guy... we're back to what I originally said...
[quote]
...
over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

I do recall it being because the player had a gripe with the fans, or the organization. Or because the player's wife had an issue with a certain mistress in the area. Or because the FO thought some top-dollar free agent that was past his prime would be a better person to pick up.
[/quote]

If you have more guys, please share. I've heard this argument before. I've yet to hear anyone actually put together a list of people over the last 15 years that actually match up to Orakpo's situation... where the FO and the player genuinely like each other, there are no off the field issues, the player just wants too much money and the FO is (so far) refusing to give it (though reluctant is probably the better way to word it, we did franchise him...)

The biggest criticism of Snyder over the last 15 years is that he *pays the wrong players too much money* often to the detriment of actually building a solid team.

In fact... the only good thing anyone could ever say about Snyder was that he was willing to throw his money around in an attempt to bring in talent. The talent evaluation was suspect at best, the contract decisions were harmful in the long run. But at least he'd throw his money around.

[quote=Southpaw;1075727]
If the new business model is not paying anyone, good luck attracting or holding on to talent.[/quote]
That's not what anyone has said.

In fact, majority of fans from what I can tell want to keep Orakpo... they just want to pay a few less dollars to do so. Ie: pay him more appropriate to his level of expected contribution.

Ie: move away from the business model of the last 14 years that has completely sunk this organization.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

All that being said, I hope Haslett lets Orakpo rush 95% of the snaps and he has a hell of a season and we pay him top dollar because he proves he's worth every penny.

If I was a betting man I'd take the other side.

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=tshile;1075735]All that being said, I hope Haslett lets Orakpo rush 95% of the snaps and he has a hell of a season and we pay him top dollar because he proves he's worth every penny.

If I was a betting man I'd take the other side.[/quote]



If I'm on offense and I know a player like Orakpo is rushing the QB 95% of the time and not playing the run ,I will game plan for it .

Re: All things offseason discussion part II
 

[quote=Giantone;1075737]If I'm on offense and I know a player like Orakpo is rushing the QB 95% of the time and not playing the run ,I will game plan for it .[/quote]

Im pretty sure he means let Rak rush on 95% of the pass plays. As it was last year, he only rushed on about 60-65% of them and dropped into pass coverage the rest. No one has said players shouldnt play the run.