Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1095075]I agree with the premise, but Spurrier was such a joke when he got here that I dont believe we could have kept him. Nor do i believe anybody expected us to. He was clearly a college coach that couldnt bring his schtick to the NFL. I completely 1000 % agree about Marty and completely 1000% disagree about Shanny. He clearly was not making progress and it was time for him to go.[/quote]surprised me because spurrier did well at duke, florida, and the usfl.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=irish;1095074]Baloney! His system looked great in preseason and after they won their first regular season game I remember the Skins announcers saying that now that we know Spurrier's system works in the regular season how will it work in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]


I was being sarcastic about 1/2 a quarter, and i cannot believe u are referencing the Osaka Bowl as to why Spurrier was let go to early. Spurrier rode out the season, and he was clearly not cut out to be an NFL coach.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1095075]I agree with the premise, but Spurrier was such a joke when he got here that I dont believe we could have kept him. Nor do i believe anybody expected us to. He was clearly a college coach that couldnt bring his schtick to the NFL. I completely 1000 % agree about Marty and completely 1000% disagree about Shanny. He clearly was not making progress and it was time for him to go.[/quote]

Spurrier wasnt a joke when he got here but it soon became obvious that his schtick just wasnt going to work in the pros. He had to go.

Shanny made a lot of progress especially in 2012. Then his star QB got hurt and also decided he wasnt "all in" on Shanny's system that had made him so successful in 2012. If RG and the organization had gone "all in" with Shanny I am very sure things wouldnt be as bad as they are now.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=irish;1095080]Spurrier wasnt a joke when he got here but it soon became obvious that his schtick just wasnt going to work in the pros. He had to go.

Shanny made a lot of progress especially in 2012. Then his star QB got hurt and also decided he wasnt "all in" on Shanny's system that had made him so successful in 2012. If RG and the organization had gone "all in" with Shanny I am very sure things wouldnt be as bad as they are now.[/quote]

Shanny dug his own grave. He wasn't successful because he just wasn't a good coach anymore.

Shanny is gone so need to speak about him.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1095076]surprised me because spurrier did well at duke, florida, and the usfl.[/quote]

It surprised everyone. IMO, the top management of this organization isnt conducive to anyone having long term success.

Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=irish;1095080]Spurrier wasnt a joke when he got here but it soon became obvious that his schtick just wasnt going to work in the pros. He had to go.



Shanny made a lot of progress especially in 2012. Then his star QB got hurt and also decided he wasnt "all in" on Shanny's system that had made him so successful in 2012. If RG and the organization had gone "all in" with Shanny I am very sure things wouldnt be as bad as they are now.[/QUOTE]


My bad - I did not mean he was a joke upon arrival. I gotcha now. I meant when he got here, as in his first year. Poor wording on my part. I totally disagree still about Shanny. Its been pointed out recently that Shanny did not develop RG-3 at all, he just put a system around him that he was capable of running. However not for the long term - defenses were going to learn to stop it the same way they have with kapernick and wilson at this point. Also due to the physical risks it would not have worked long term with Griff. Hell it didnt even work for one season physically that is.
Edit: when I said i dont remember anybody thinking we should keep him around i meant after year one, not after game one - again poor wording on my part.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=irish;1095082]It surprised everyone. IMO, the top management of this organization isnt conducive to anyone having long term success.[/quote]

I was around the Redskins almost every day from 1998 through 2002, so for 5 seasons.

In my opinion, the franchise did Marty wrong. Marty was a colossal pain in the ass, no question about it. And ownership then had a huge ego that head butted constantly with Marty. But, off of Norv, the franchise needed a colossal pain in the ass. Marty could have been like Coughlin here. Hated, yet begrudgingly respected with success to justify his stay.

Spurrier on the other hand was given every opportunity and he repeatedly ignored those opportunities. It was a lot of fun when Spurrier was around, too fun

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;1095084]I was around the Redskins almost every day from 1998 through 2002, so for 5 seasons.



In my opinion, the franchise did Marty wrong. Marty was a colossal pain in the ass, no question about it. And ownership then had a huge ego that head butted constantly with Marty. But, off of Norv, the franchise needed a colossal pain in the ass. Marty could have been like Coughlin here. Hated, yet begrudgingly respected with success to justify his stay.



Spurrier on the other hand was given every opportunity and he repeatedly ignored those opportunities. It was a lot of fun when Spurrier was around, too fun[/QUOTE]


Did Martys track record in the playoffs play a part in his being shown the door? I mean that was always the knock on Marty.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1095085]Did Martys track record in the playoffs play a part in his being shown the door? I mean that was always the knock on Marty.[/quote]

No, not at all. It was primarily two things

1) Fred Drasner didn't like him, and Drasner made Snyder look like the most patient man in the world. Schottenheimer "disrespected" Drasner during training camp and at the point Drasner had already decided he was 1 and done. And Snyder listened a lot to Drasner in those days

2) Marty didn't even attempt to make Snyder feel involved, even if it's a token gesture he should have

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1095083]My bad - I did not mean he was a joke upon arrival. I gotcha now. I meant when he got here, as in his first year. Poor wording on my part. I totally disagree still about Shanny. Its been pointed out recently that Shanny did not develop RG-3 at all, he just put a system around him that he was capable of running. However not for the long term - defenses were going to learn to stop it the same way they have with kapernick and wilson at this point. Also due to the physical risks it would not have worked long term with Griff. Hell it didnt even work for one season physically that is.[/quote]

I think Shanny saw from the beginning that RG is never going to be a pocket passer so there was no point in trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Shanny developed a system that worked and who knows how he would have modified it to stay ahead of the defense. I have read some articles that suggested Shanny did not want to draft RG but, as seems to happen too ofter in this organization, was over-ruled by the owner.

IMO Gruden got this job on the premise that he would develop RG into a pocket passer but I think Gruden now realizes how far away RG is from that goal. So now Gruden is in the tough place of having to get the team winning and keep 51 players happy while he works on the Herculean task of re-tooling RG's QBing. I'm not sure Skins ownership or fans will be patient enough to see if this project pans out.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1095086]No, not at all. It was primarily two things

1) Fred Drasner didn't like him, and Drasner made Snyder look like the most patient man in the world. Schottenheimer "disrespected" Drasner during training camp and at the point Drasner had already decided he was 1 and done. And Snyder listened a lot to Drasner in those days

2) Marty didn't even attempt to make Snyder feel involved, even if it's a token gesture he should have[/quote]

2 great posts Smoot. Thanks for the insight.

No doubt Marty was a huge PITA but that definitely was no secret so when you hire him you know you are hiring a PITA.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;1095086]No, not at all. It was primarily two things



1) Fred Drasner didn't like him, and Drasner made Snyder look like the most patient man in the world. Schottenheimer "disrespected" Drasner during training camp and at the point Drasner had already decided he was 1 and done. And Snyder listened a lot to Drasner in those days



2) Marty didn't even attempt to make Snyder feel involved, even if it's a token gesture he should have[/QUOTE]


Thanks SS.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1095076]surprised me because spurrier did well at duke, florida, and the usfl.[/quote]

weurrfeil and matthews were our QBs back then .. who was the other noodle armed dude we ran out under center? banks?

bad times but spurrier gave us Okinawa.

thanks for the insight SS.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

It is noteworthy, however, that Spurried never coached another NFL team or, to my knowledge, was ever considered for such a spot. It's the pinnacle of coaching, but I think even he realized that staying a college coach -- good money, no salary cap, all kinds of creative recruiting opportunities -- would allow for him to be successful and stay put. And he has.

But he was not a good coach of the Redskins. Marty was. Starting 0-5 and finishing 8-8 with the talent on that team was an achievement, and we'll never know what he could have done in year 2. I thought part of the issue was Marty's desire to have say over the roster and that Snyder wouldn't allow for that. But it has admittedly been quite a while.

I hope Gruden is given a chance. The only other coach I would want right now that isn't already tied up with another gig is Cowher. That'd be awesome. But Gruden should be given a fair shot to succeed, and that's on the order of 3 seasons, I think. He did inherit a 3-13 team, after all, and while many thought last year's team underachieved, this year's record and quality of play suggests that it did not.

What's frustrating is that I, for one, thought we would be appreciably better this year. If you look at the various parts of the team, we mostly got better or stayed the same (not taking injuries into account):

QB: same (or worse, if one considers RGIII not developing)
WR: better -- thanks DJax
O-line: same (and still not good)
RB: same
TE: same

Dline: better -- Hatcher (although the Cofield injury hurt)
LBs: better -- Robinson is an upgrade, everyone else the same (debatable about the impact of Orakpo's injury)
S: same/worse -- R. Clark has not been an improvement from what I can tell
CBs: same (again, not taking DHall's injury into account)

P: better
K: same
KR: better
PR: better

One would hope that this translates into more Ws.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

When Spurrier resigned part of the agreement was that he couldn't coach in the NFL for the next 3 years

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=over the mountain;1095103]weurrfeil and matthews were our QBs back then .. who was the other noodle armed dude we ran out under center? banks?



bad times but spurrier gave us Okinawa.



thanks for the insight SS.[/QUOTE]


Osaka. Lol. I think the marines gave us okinawa.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Don't know if Marty would have been the savior, but he was better than much of the circus that followed, except Gibbs, and even JG had his issues. Still, Marty couldn't get over the hump in San Diego either. Whatever--water far under the bridge, I'm afraid.

Stability. For that reason alone, I do hope Gruden gets to stay and to make some tangible progress. Hard to do if RGIII is a bust, but that's the hand he's been dealt, maybe. I don't think we should underestimate the impact of the cap penalty right on top of the RGIII trade. Hard to get better with one hand tied behind your back. And that's what happened. I'm not giving Allen a freebie here, but that shit hurt.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;1095117]When Spurrier resigned part of the agreement was that he couldn't coach in the NFL for the next 3 years[/QUOTE]

That's interesting. Any idea why that was part of the agreement? Was he interested in doing so?

As I recall, he was so obviously out of his league (literally) by the end of his tenure here that he was being universally held out as the example of why not to hire a college coach.

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Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1095012]What you describe is not dysfunctional. It is standard management practice in countless businesses. Gruden has bosses and he is obligated implement the instructions of those bosses.

What we have here is Round 105 of discussing what we think the management structure of the Redskins ought to be. If we have a HC who has complete authority (Shanahan) then we argue that there ought to be a GM over him. If we have a HC reporting to a GM (Gruden) then we argue that the GM shouldn't tell the HC what to do.[/quote]

We can agree to disagree, but this is football not Business school. I'd rather my head coach\staff pick the starting lineup and who should be on the field. That is basic leadership 101.
You let the professional people with skills you hired do their jobs.
Allen and Snyder are not professional coaches.
There is a reason they call it meddling owner and people frown on it; and Snyder and Jerry Jones are generally not liked. I am being nice.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;1095135]We can agree to disagree, but this is football not Business school. I'd rather my head coach\staff pick the starting lineup and who should be on the field. That is basic leadership 101.
You let the professional people with skills you hired do their jobs.
Allen and Snyder are not professional coaches.
There is a reason they call it meddling owner and people frown on it; and Snyder and Jerry Jones are generally not liked. I am being nice.[/QUOTE]
[emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106]

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Defensewins;1095135]We can agree to disagree, but this is football not Business school. I'd rather my head coach\staff pick the starting lineup and who should be on the field. That is basic leadership 101.
You let the professional people with skills you hired do their jobs.
[B]Allen and Snyder are not professional coaches.[/B]
There is a reason they call it meddling owner and people frown on it; and Snyder and Jerry Jones are generally not liked. I am being nice.[/quote]

Allen is not even a real GM...but he acts like one.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1095128]That's interesting. Any idea why that was part of the agreement? Was he interested in doing so?

As I recall, he was so obviously out of his league (literally) by the end of his tenure here that he was being universally held out as the example of why not to hire a college coach.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk[/quote]

He was under contract. If someone wanted to hire him they would have had to compensate the Redskins. Like the Skins did to get Marty

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

I wish somebody had PROOF that Snyder is telling the coaches who to start..but you know what..that proof does not exist..Snyder has not told Gruden who to start ..if so it would not have been the first time and how come no other head coach has come forward and told the media about anything like this…I will say I believe that Snyder has a hand in the Draft ..but that is a far cry from telling the coach who to play on sunday..I am not a Snyder fan but I don't believe he is coaching the team..THE COLD HARD FACT IS that RGIII is the best QB on the team and the head coach knows this..so if RGIII is the best we have ..we are in deep crap!! Colt is okay and most likely would have played better in the last two games BUT he is not the FUTURE of the team..there are a lot of theories about this teams problems but one thing for sure is …WE SUCK!!!

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Defensewins;1095135]We can agree to disagree, but this is football not Business school. I'd rather my head coach\staff pick the starting lineup and who should be on the field. That is basic leadership 101.
You let the professional people with skills you hired do their jobs.
Allen and Snyder are not professional coaches.
There is a reason they call it meddling owner and people frown on it; and Snyder and Jerry Jones are generally not liked. I am being nice.[/quote]

Not business school but real business and RGIII is a special case. Snyder and Allen might not be wise to dictate to Gruden who he must start at QB but they have the authority to do so. And, yes, it would probably be a business decision and not a football decision. That's because The Washington Redskins franchise is not just about football - it is in the business of football.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Mattyk;1095037]At this point it's not crazy to at least bring up the possibility. We're 3-7 and full of drama just like last year. Gruden hasn't solved any of our issues. He's part of the problem now.[/quote]

Totes

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=rocnrik;1095140]I wish somebody had PROOF that Snyder is telling the coaches who to start..but you know what..that proof does not exist..Snyder has not told Gruden who to start ..if so it would not have been the first time and how come no other head coach has come forward and told the media about anything like this…I will say I believe that Snyder has a hand in the Draft ..but that is a far cry from telling the coach who to play on sunday..I am not a Snyder fan but I don't believe he is coaching the team..THE COLD HARD FACT IS that RGIII is the best QB on the team and the head coach knows this..so if RGIII is the best we have ..we are in deep crap!! Colt is okay and most likely would have played better in the last two games BUT he is not the FUTURE of the team..there are a lot of theories about this teams problems but one thing for sure is …WE SUCK!!![/QUOTE]


It is not illegal for owners to interject on the subject of who is playing and who is not. They do own the team. I would imagine coaches dont "come forward" and throw their owners under the bus mainly because they like their jobs.


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Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

You are correct..but it gets tiring to keep hearing that Snyder is doing all this sort of like the great wizard of OZ behind the curtain. It would be nice to have the truth about who really makes the game day decisions..If in truth Snyder forced Gruden to start RGIII then I don't want Gruden around period..and if that is what is going on then This ship is doomed and no amount of players,draft picks will ever fix this mess..with all the coaches that have left here you would think at least one of them would have told the true story if there really is a story to be told..or maybe the SKINS are just like a lot of other teams they are just not very good ..look at Raiders,Jags,Jets,titans,Tampa and for years the Browns,lions..yes some of them are better now but the truth is a lot of teams have sucked for a long time..Not just the SKINS..the inability to lock down a really good QB is right now the Skins biggest foe..in this pass happy league with all the rules favoring the offense you have to have that field general that understands the game..we place to much on the physical aspect in truth the Mental side is way more important..that is why Colt played better than Robert..or Why cousins had brief success they actually understood what was going on..the only thing now we can hope for RGIII is that a light comes on and he starts to get it..if not we are searching again..

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Lotus;1095138]Allen is not even a real GM...but he acts like one.[/quote]

He's not a very good in-game replay challenge decider either.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1095149]Not business school but real business and RGIII is a special case. Snyder and Allen might not be wise to dictate to Gruden who he must start at QB but they have the authority to do so. And, yes, it would probably be a business decision and not a football decision. That's because The Washington Redskins franchise is not just about football - it is in the business of football.[/quote]

What happens on the field is still football. A game that takes skill. That is why we are all here as fans.....right? Not the $20 beer or $40 parking spot or the $1,000 seat....NOT the business. What matters most is winning a game.
When we have a Bussiness man and the son of a former coach picking our starters we will be a losing/terrible team and it will ruin the morale of the team. But we will have the most profitable team. Yay!
I do not want the owner and GM dictating to the coach who he should start.
Too many cooks in the kitchen.
Stick to what you do best and let the most qualified people do their jobs. It is that SIMPLE!

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=irish;1095184]He's not a very good in-game replay challenge decider either.[/QUOTE]


I would like to be an in game challenge decider when I grow up.


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Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1095188]I would like to be an in game challenge decider when I grow up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Grow up fast because the Skins really need you. I dont think they have had a single successful challenge this year.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Defensewins;1095187]What happens on the field is still football. A game that takes skill. That is why we are all here as fans.....right? Not the $20 beer or $40 parking spot or the $1,000 seat....NOT the business. [B]What matters most is winning a game.[/B]
When we have a Bussiness man and the son of a former coach picking our starters we will be a losing/terrible team and it will ruin the morale of the team. But we will have the most profitable team. Yay!
[B]I do not want the owner and GM dictating to the coach who he should start. [/B]
Too many cooks in the kitchen.
Stick to what you do best and let the most qualified people do their jobs. It is that SIMPLE![/quote]

1. What matters most to us, as fans, is winning the next game. That is not necessarily true of an NFL owner. Dan Snyder may hope to build a winner but perhaps he expects it to take longer than we would like - AND I'm sure that he would like to do it with the very marketable RGIII as his QB.

2. Like you, I also don't want the owner and GM dictating to the coach who he should start. Unfortunately for us, I'm pretty sure that Snyder and Allen don't care about our opinions on that matter. They will use their authority as they see fit.

What I'm trying to say to you is that you might as well accept that there is going to continue to be some degree of interference with Coach Gruden's plans by higher management.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

I'm not opposed to Gruden leaving

I see none of the skills necessary to create a highly successful team.

Gruden is no brilliant football mind, nor is he able to keep his team disciplined.

Perhaps it would make sense for the team to part ways with him and seek a fresh start with a completely new coaching staff

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1095206]I'm not opposed to Gruden leaving

I see none of the skills necessary to create a highly successful team.

Gruden is no brilliant football mind, nor is he able to keep his team disciplined.

Perhaps it would make sense for the team to part ways with him and seek a fresh start with a completely new coaching staff[/quote]



Exactly how can you tell what kind of mind he has if:

1) Your FO and Owner are dictating who you play at QB?

2) You have to dumb down your offense just so that same QB can run something?



Jay Gruden is probably one of the best things that has come to this franchise in quite sometime, it's just a shame he's handcuffed with both personnel and play calling.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1095208]Exactly how can you tell what kind of mind he has if:

1) Your FO and Owner are dictating who you play at QB?

2) You have to dumb down your offense just so that same QB can run something?

Jay Gruden is probably one of the best things that has come to this franchise in quite sometime, it's just a shame he's handcuffed with both personnel and play calling.[/quote]

I'm sick of people complaining about the FO/Snyder dictating who to play at QB.

This team made a huge investment in RG3 and Gruden knew coming that in. If he didn't want to deal with this, he should have gone to another team period.

If Gruden has been given the same authority that Shanny was, then I'd agree with this. But Bruce Allen runs this team, and basically this was the personnel given to Gruden to work with.

I'm not justifying RG3 and he'll probably be done after this season here. But Gruden knew coming in that he had to make this work.

It's funny how everyone blames RG3 for pointing the finger at other people but himself. I feel that Gruden spends a lot of time placing the blame on RG3. I just don't know how the failures of a QB are not the failures of a coach. Gruden was brought in because he developed Dalton and seen as a good offensive coach. Even when Cousins and Colt were in at QB, we had issues with the offense.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1095210]I'm sick of people complaining about the FO/Snyder dictating who to play at QB.

This team made a huge investment in RG3 and Gruden knew coming that in. If he didn't want to deal with this, he should have gone to another team period.

If Gruden has been given the same authority that Shanny was, then I'd agree with this. But Bruce Allen runs this team, and basically this was the personnel given to Gruden to work with.

I'm not justifying RG3 and he'll probably be done after this season here. But Gruden knew coming in that he had to make this work.

It's funny how everyone blames RG3 for pointing the finger at other people but himself. I feel that Gruden spends a lot of time placing the blame on RG3. I just don't know how the failures of a QB are not the failures of a coach. Gruden was brought in because he developed Dalton and seen as a good offensive coach. Even when Cousins and Colt were in at QB, we had issues with the offense.[/quote]



As noted by SS, Jay didn't realize exactly how raw he was until he got here. Jay is simply putting public pressure on lil Danny and Bruce in regards to RGIII. He knows what he's doing.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1095212]As noted by SS, Jay didn't realize exactly how raw he was until he got here. Jay is simply putting public pressure on lil Danny and Bruce in regards to RGIII. He knows what he's doing.[/quote]

Jay needs to shut up and coach this team. The offense wasn't thrilling anyone while RG3 was out and was the biggest reason the team lost.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Regardless of what Gruden needs to do, he's seen enough of Griffin,...from last years film, OTA's, mini camps, training camp, pre season games, practice and few regular seasons games, he's seen enough to know this isn't his guy. Yeah he was brought in to coach him up, but if the player isn't capable of doing the job things change. I do think Gruden needs to stop talking. Just shut up, coach the team and deal with Griffin in the off-season.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1095213]Jay needs to shut up and coach this team. The offense wasn't thrilling anyone while RG3 was out and was the biggest reason the team lost.[/quote]

Well the offense did have a few big games, Dallas, Philly, Jacksonville...

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1095206]I'm not opposed to Gruden leaving

I see none of the skills necessary to create a highly successful team.

Gruden is no brilliant football mind, nor is he able to keep his team disciplined.

Perhaps it would make sense for the team to part ways with him and seek a fresh start with a completely new coaching staff[/quote]

Almost a certainty better HC prospects will be available, the questions are whether they'd come here and work for/with Snyder and Allen, and will Snyder/Allen pull the trigger anyway.

Jay is here for one reason, the Jon and Bruce connection. Jay has never shown much with x's and o's, and his constant resistance to running the ball doesn't really fit our offensive personnel to begin with. And after 9 games, it's ugly obvious he's not a leader of men. This is the worst disciplined and prepared team I've seen in pro football since Zorn's 2nd year. Jay got there in half a season!!