Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1099119]Philly has a franchise QB?[/quote]

That was my thought. Gruden must think that Foles is more entrenched than I do.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I would like Todd Bowles as the Redskins HC, he would be a no nonsense, bullshit coach that would bring a new hard nosed attitude. Only if Gruden is let go, Bowles is going places.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Lotus;1099120]That was my thought. Gruden must think that Foles is more entrenched than I do.[/quote]

It's a tactical thing. Saying other 3 teams in division already have franchise QBs.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1098869]Gruden is going to get another year, and there will likely be many FO changes[/quote]

I know I'm a couple of days late on this but is it possible to elaborate? Many meaning significant, i.e. new people making football decisions? Not Allen stepping back and AJ Smith making all of the football moves. Although that would be an improvement, I'm not sure it's enough. I'd personally like to replace pretty much the entire scouting department.

While I think that Gruden has done a terrible job this year and may not deserve another one, the talent is not good. We've ignored the secondary and both lines for far too long. I'm not sure anyone would have done a decent (10 win) job with this roster.

Gruden completely botched the QB position and I don't trust him to properly evaluate talent. No way should we be starting Lavaou, Chester, Polumbus (to start the season) or giving as much playing time to Paul and Paulson. His staff is just as bad. Forester hasn't developed anyone. Haslett & Morris are jokes.

A complete reset would be ok with me but for now, I'd just be happy with competent football people in charge.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Trying to find out more, have heard though that Allen's on really thin ice. Basically it's just Snyder keeping him employed. Ultimately it's his call, but the other owners are applying pressure. They've gotten others fired before

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Is there a favorite for new GM? How do owners feel about Gruden? I think you said he was getting another year but is it for sure?

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Honestly after these last 13 games, I have not seen anything, as a fan, that makes me thinj Jay Gruden will ever be a decent coach. What I see is a new generation of Rich Kotite, unfortunately, and this time he is wearing burgundy and gold, instead of kelly green, of the Eagles or Jets.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1099133]It's a tactical thing. Saying other 3 teams in division already have franchise QBs.[/quote]

Jon Gruden is a television commentator. How, then, can his comments be "tactical"?

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

All I hear is Jay keeps saying we need to coach our players up. Well its week 13 and they still look lost out their. Jay wants to play McCoy because he can gives his offense the best chance to look half decent. The problem is neither McCoy or Robert have time in the pocket on most of the pass plays. Unless you just want to run quick screen passes. Jay is really hard on the QB's but gives the O-line a pass to many times. The O-Line is just terrible this season. They struggle in the pass game and run game. So far this Jay Gruden offense has proven nothing.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

No way he is here next year.

[url=http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7406/robert-griffin-iii]Robert Griffin III - Washington Redskins - 2014 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com[/url]

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Well other than how terrible the team is as a whole. Toss the QB drama out of this conversation and this team is just garbage.

And now I am suppose to believe the guy with a jacked up neck is better than both Cousins and Griffin?

Sorry go find someone else to peddle that bullshit on, this is all about his job as the head coach at this point and who he wants to lose with. He has made this about him now and he is doing a terrible job with the team. Offense defense and special teams .... All still suck and its week 14.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

How anybody is defending ANYBODY on this team is beyond me. How can you make excuses for anybody? Griffin is dramatic and can't read a defense. Not a single phase of the offense, defense, or special teams has gotten better and that's all on Gruden and Haslett. The injuries we've suffered are insane so you have to question the training staff. None of our young players are developing into solid starters and stepping up - LeRib, Moses, Long, nobody on the line is worth a crap. So Foerster deserves blame. Raheem Morris and Haslett, horrible job in the secondary, injuries can't excuse blown assignments.

And the front office just has not found a single star outside of Kerrigan and Morris. Kerrigan was easy - a first rounder. Morris was Shanahan's knack for RBs.

They all suck. They all deserve to go. Stop defending anybody, it makes you sound like an apologist.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Lotus;1099154]Jon Gruden is a television commentator. How, then, can his comments be "tactical"?[/quote]

It's like giving Jay a mulligan. The other teams have franchise QBs while Jay doesn't have squat to work with here. Nevermind the fact nobody is sold on Foles or Sanchez and Eli has been mediocre for two seasons.

Get it now?

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

The last thing the team needs is to toss aside another head coach. But part of me feels like it would be good if Snyder went in and fired everyone, including Allen. Go get a young and upcoming personnel guy to be the GM. To me your GM needs to be the kind of guy who will scout a potential special teams warrior that will also be a back up player, like a Monte Coleman type. Your GM has to have the scouting blood in him. Then give him the power to either keep Gruden or let him go.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Schneed10;1099171]How anybody is defending ANYBODY on this team is beyond me. How can you make excuses for anybody? Griffin is dramatic and can't read a defense. Not a single phase of the offense, defense, or special teams has gotten better and that's all on Gruden and Haslett. The injuries we've suffered are insane so you have to question the training staff. None of our young players are developing into solid starters and stepping up - LeRib, Moses, Long, nobody on the line is worth a crap. So Foerster deserves blame. Raheem Morris and Haslett, horrible job in the secondary, injuries can't excuse blown assignments.

And the front office just has not found a single star outside of Kerrigan and Morris. Kerrigan was easy - a first rounder. Morris was Shanahan's knack for RBs.

[B]They all suck. They all deserve to go. Stop defending anybody, it makes you sound like an apologis[/B]t.[/quote]

It's easy to feel that way, but it's another thing to suggest the Redskins get rid of everyone. I mean, I think it's time we step back and ask ourselves if we really want change. Do we really want to change the GM? We tried that. We got worse. Do we really want to change the head coach? We keep trying that; we keep getting worse. Do we really want to change the QB? We thought Griffin was bad. We replaced him. Twice. Both his replacements are worse. At what point do we just suck it up and admit that any time we make a change, things get worse? Frankly, I think we should settle in and start enjoying three win seasons. Because honestly, it can get worse.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Clean house is the way to go front office all the way down to the players Need a hard nosed coach who knows how to adapt to his players strength. Gruden has not showed this at all with any of the qb's. I would give RG3 1 more year...but he has to earn everything. Unlikely to get anything for him now anyway. I would not accept anything less than a 2'nd for him but we won't get that now.


[quote=Coff;1099175]It's easy to feel that way, but it's another thing to suggest the Redskins get rid of everyone. I mean, I think it's time we step back and ask ourselves if we really want change. Do we really want to change the GM? We tried that. We got worse. Do we really want to change the head coach? We keep trying that; we keep getting worse. Do we really want to change the QB? We thought Griffin was bad. We replaced him. Twice. Both his replacements are worse. At what point do we just suck it up and admit that any time we make a change, things get worse? Frankly, I think we should settle in and start enjoying three win seasons. Because honestly, it can get worse.[/quote]

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Coff;1099175]It's easy to feel that way, but it's another thing to suggest the Redskins get rid of everyone. I mean, I think it's time we step back and ask ourselves if we really want change. Do we really want to change the GM? We tried that. We got worse. Do we really want to change the head coach? We keep trying that; we keep getting worse. Do we really want to change the QB? We thought Griffin was bad. We replaced him. Twice. Both his replacements are worse. At what point do we just suck it up and admit that any time we make a change, things get worse? [B]Frankly, I think we should settle in and start enjoying three win seasons. Because honestly, it can get worse[/B].[/quote]

No offense, but are you a masochist? Enjoy a 3 win season? Yeah, if the season were 3 games long I might. I think folks are venting about the mistakes thse franchise has made -- too numberable to even summarize here -- and are expressing hope that better decisions and some changes will lead us away from 3 win seasons. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result (or so people keep telling me). Even teams that strive for consistency mix up personnel, offensive and defensive schemes and plays. You sit still, you lose. Our problem is that the decisions we have made to get better have backfired. Sometimes, patience is called for -- for me, given the misery of the last two seasons, I have no idea whether Griffin can develop into a starting caliber NFL QB. In his rookie season, even putting aside the read option focus, he didn't seem to have the same problems reading the field and finding open receivers, nor did he for periods last year. Is that fixable? Hell, I have no idea, and I doubt anyone on this board does either. Does that mean folks should give him more time so we all find out? Entirely debatable, and I respect views on both sides of it. But to do nothing for the sake of not trying to take a step backwards seems very myopic to me.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

While I said they all deserve to go, the practical fact of the matter is they can't all go. We're into Gruden for four more guaranteed years so we have no choice but to ride him out a bit longer and hope for the best.

And it's not like we have better options at QB so might as well hang onto RG3 and see what happens. But Allen, Haslett and others should be gone.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Coff;1099175][B]It's easy to feel that way, but it's another thing to suggest the Redskins get rid of everyone. I mean, I think it's time we step back and ask ourselves if we really want change.[/B][/quote]

YES!!!!!!!!!!

[quote=Coff;1099175] [B]Do we really want to change the GM?[/B][/quote]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!! But he can stay for the money side of things only.

[quote=Coff;1099175]We tried that. We got worse. Do we really want to change the head coach?[/quote]

I always feel a head coach should have a mulligan in his first season, but would I be upset if Jay was shown the door after one season? Nope. But, do I think that's what should happen? Nope, because I don't know what is available that would be a better option. And when I say available, I mean someone who's willing to coach the Redskins.

[quote=Coff;1099175]We keep trying that; we keep getting worse. Do we really want to change the QB? We thought Griffin was bad. We replaced him. Twice. Both his replacements are worse.[/quote]

I'm having my doubts that Griffin can transform himself into a pocket passer within a decent amount of time. But, what would help any of these quarterbacks is a better offensive line to play behind. That's half the battle there. But yes, none of the quarterbacks, this year, has shown they can lead this team.

[quote=Coff;1099175]At what point do we just suck it up and admit that any time we make a change, things get worse? Frankly, I think we should settle in and start enjoying three win seasons. Because honestly, it can get worse.[/quote]

I would never settle for three win seasons. And as long as the team is having that type of a season, then change needs to be made unless the team has shown some progress during that three win season.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Coff;1099175]It's easy to feel that way, but it's another thing to suggest the Redskins get rid of everyone. I mean, I think it's time we step back and ask ourselves if we really want change. Do we really want to change the GM? We tried that. We got worse. Do we really want to change the head coach? We keep trying that; we keep getting worse. Do we really want to change the QB? We thought Griffin was bad. We replaced him. Twice. Both his replacements are worse. At what point do we just suck it up and admit that any time we make a change, things get worse? Frankly, I think we should settle in and start enjoying three win seasons. Because honestly, it can get worse.[/quote]

So now our only option is to learn to enjoy the inevitable pain of being a Redskins fan? To Hell with that idea!

Gruden has done a horrible job, IMO. He can be dismissed now. In fact, I don't mind if Snyder changes HC's annually if that what it takes to find the right man for the job. Eventually, Snyder might get lucky.

Although it usually takes more than one season to evaluate a new HC, I don't think that is always the case. Sometimes, I think that an owner can tell if a HC isn't a good fit for his organization after one just one season.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Schneed10;1099184]While I said they all deserve to go, the practical fact of the matter is they can't all go. [B]We're into Gruden for four more guaranteed years so we have no choice but to ride him out a bit longer and hope for the best.[/B]

And it's not like we have better options at QB so might as well hang onto RG3 and see what happens. But Allen, Haslett and others should be gone.[/quote]

What you mean we? Snyder is a billionaire. He can pay a man who is no longer coaching his team if he wants to do that. As a fan, I have no interest in Snyder keeping around a man who can't do the job and I couldn't care less how much money he spends to find the right coach.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1099190]What you mean we? Snyder is a billionaire. He can pay a man who is no longer coaching his team if he wants to do that. As a fan, I have no interest in Snyder keeping around a man who can't do the job and I couldn't care less how much money he spends to find the right coach.[/quote]

Exactly. The guaranteed money to Gruden is a pittance compared to the lost revenue from keeping a bad coach who nobody wants to watch, buy apparel and whatnot.

It's a no brainer, if there's a better HC available you walk Gruden to the door.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I'm not even sure Gruden could handle being OC on most teams. He was really "coddled" in Cincy having a ton of talent to work with and an elite defense that constantly put the offense in good position.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1099193]I'm not even sure Gruden could handle being OC on most teams. He was really "coddled" in Cincy having a ton of talent to work with and an elite defense that constantly put the offense in good position.[/quote]

Lol. Having talent to work with means an o-coordinator is "coddled?" If that's the case, I wish our o-coordinators were coddled every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1099190]What you mean we? Snyder is a billionaire. He can pay a man who is no longer coaching his team if he wants to do that. As a fan, I have no interest in Snyder keeping around a man who can't do the job and I couldn't care less how much money he spends to find the right coach.[/quote]

Just because he can doesn't mean he will. If it were your business would you toss away $20M for nothing?

It's just ignorant of reality.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1099192]Exactly. [B]The guaranteed money to Gruden is a pittance compared to the lost revenue from keeping a bad coach who nobody wants to watch, buy apparel and whatnot.[/B]

It's a no brainer, if there's a better HC available you walk Gruden to the door.[/quote]

You're going to have to show me your analysis on that one because I call bullshit.

We have sucked something awful for years, yet we continue to sell out games.

We had tickets on RESALE for $4 this past weekend, but that's resale. That doesn't hurt Snyder's pocket. A sparse stadium hurts concessions, I'll give you that.

But come next year we'll all be excited again for Redskins football and they'll sell out again, no matter whether Gruden is coach.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

This is easily the worst situation I can ever remember any NFL team being in.

A coach with 4 more guaranteed years who by all accounts is terrible, a QB who loves drama more than football, 3 high picks not on the roster because of a trade, and terrible front office support.

Doesn't mean they can't make moves, but reality says we won't get what we want.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Gee look who is number three on the list. Danny is just so upset he can't win; he uses 100 dollar bills to wipe the tears away.
[url=http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlm45fgikm/3-washington-redskins-6/]Washington Redskins - In Photos: NFL Team Values 2014 - Forbes[/url]

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Schneed10;1099204]Just because he can doesn't mean he will. If it were your business would you toss away $20M for nothing?

It's just ignorant of reality.[/quote]

I am not so sure. He might part with $20M if he thought that the damages to the franchise associated with a coach that cannot get us moving in the direction of winning soon might cost more than that. Not to mention that it might be worth $20M (to him -- he has that luxury) not to have the media shit-storm that the last 7 weeks have wrought.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=calia;1099210]I am not so sure. He might part with $20M if he thought that the damages to the franchise associated with a coach that cannot get us moving in the direction of winning soon might cost more than that. Not to mention that it might be worth $20M (to him -- he has that luxury) not to have the media shit-storm that the last 7 weeks have wrought.[/quote]

Dude, he tried to get Shanahan to resign last year so that he didn't have to pay his final year.

We kept on several coaches as holdovers from that staff so that Dan wouldn't have to pay dead salaries.

Show me a time when Dan Snyder has ever been willing to pay lots of money to a coach to go away?

You're not living in reality.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Schneed10;1099212]Dude, he tried to get Shanahan to resign last year so that he didn't have to pay his final year.

We kept on several coaches as holdovers from that staff so that Dan wouldn't have to pay dead salaries.

Show me a time when Dan Snyder has ever been willing to pay lots of money to a coach to go away?

You're not living in reality.[/quote]

And did Shanahan resign, or did he eat that $? I also don't think the holdover coaches were driven by $ (although I concede it may have been a factor) -- I think Gruden's alliegance and relationship (and Allen's) to Haslett was more of a factor.

I confess I do not recall whether Snyder had to pay $ to make Zorn, Schottenheimer or Spurrier go away (although I suspect he may have).

With all due respect, I am not sure you're looking at this the right way. The $ Snyder spent on Gruden was gone the minute Gruden signed the deal. The question is what Snyder will have to pay beyond that to get what he wants -- a coach that can get this team winning. If he thinks that by spending $ to do so he can get that, he will have to evalute the cost relative to how important it is to him. Stated differently, I doubt he will keep a coach that he believes will not climb above 3 wins just to save $20M -- if doing better than 3 wins is worth $20M to him (and I suspect it is). That's particularly true when keeping Gruden (and not paying the incremental cost of another HC) could actually cost Snyder a lot more revenue in an increasingly disenfranchised fan base that isn't buying tickets, jerseys, etc.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

It is not only the $20M when talking about Gruden, it is also who do you replace him with in 2015?

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Hard to imagine Gruden getting the axe so quick. Even Zorn got two years.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=calia;1099213]And did Shanahan resign, or did he eat that $? I also don't think the holdover coaches were driven by $ (although I concede it may have been a factor) -- I think Gruden's alliegance and relationship (and Allen's) to Haslett was more of a factor.

I confess I do not recall whether Snyder had to pay $ to make Zorn, Schottenheimer or Spurrier go away (although I suspect he may have).

With all due respect, I am not sure you're looking at this the right way. The $ Snyder spent on Gruden was gone the minute Gruden signed the deal. The question is what Snyder will have to pay beyond that to get what he wants -- a coach that can get this team winning. If he thinks that by spending $ to do so he can get that, he will have to evalute the cost relative to how important it is to him. Stated differently, I doubt he will keep a coach that he believes will not climb above 3 wins just to save $20M -- if doing better than 3 wins is worth $20M to him (and I suspect it is). That's particularly true when keeping Gruden (and not paying the incremental cost of another HC) could actually cost Snyder a lot more revenue in an increasingly disenfranchised fan base that isn't buying tickets, jerseys, etc.[/quote]

I completely understand the principles of sunk cost. But I don't think you're appropriately factoring in risk.

Here's the thing, as much as I think Jay Gruden stinks, I can't be entirely certain he can't turn the program around. And I can't be entirely certain a new coach could.

So let's go ahead and view the $20M as a sunk cost. To hire a new coach would be another what, $25M commitment? Would he pay $45M for what he might perceive to be a better shot at improvement? Or would he ride it out and pay $20M to someone who could still improve?

Again, it's not what we think he should do (it's easy to spend other people's money). It's a matter of what he will think he should do.

Secondly, I think you overstate the threat to Snyder's revenue stream. We still haven't failed to sell out a home game, despite the sad state of affairs.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I've totally lost track of this thread, but Snyder has paid millions over the years for coaches not to be here

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1099218]I've totally lost track of this thread, but Snyder has paid millions over the years for coaches not to be here[/quote]

Even if we lose out, I don't see him getting rid of Gruden. My money is on BA either leaving or moving to business role.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1099215]Hard to imagine Gruden getting the axe so quick. Even Zorn got two years.[/quote]

Yeah, but wasn't Zorn like 7-9 or 8-8 in his first year?

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

unless we get blown out all of those games. Allen should be gone or at lest moved to business side HAZ gone, if he retains gruden and we go on a losing strak i could him getting axed during the season

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Why gruden must go: [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/12/11/here-are-the-10-worst-redskins-seasons-of-all-time/]Here are the 10 worst Redskins seasons of all time - The Washington Post[/url]

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote]This is easily the worst situation I can ever remember any NFL team being in[/quote]

Matt Millen at Detroit was worse. A lot. If 0-16 isn't bad enough, look at their drafting. Painful to look at even for another team.

The last few years of Al Davis was worse. He finally had a coach that turned the team around and then fired him (Tom Cable at 8-8)

Tampa Bay for a long, long, long, time. 1982-1996 all losing seasons - 10 of those seasons less than 6 wins....horrid.

the Saints 1967 - 1986. 20 consecutive non winning seasons. (one 8-8 in there)

I will agree this is the worst the place the Washington redskins have been in since 1981 for sure. Will be interested as to what happens after the season.