Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=KI Skins Fan;1362156]One of the complaints about the perjorative name "Redskins" was that the name was remindful of the portrayal of Native Americans as warlike savages. So that's a no-go.

Also, what do the Commanches have to do with the D.C. area? Aren't they a western tribe? There was a tribe called the Nacotchtank that had a settlement on the east bank of the Anacostia River at the time D.C. became the nation's capital but that name doesn't sound very elegant to my ears.[/QUOTE]


Redskins was a derogatory term. Comanche isn’t. Chief isn’t. Brave isn’t. Seminole isn’t.
As far as your question about relation to the city well What does Titan have to do with Tennessee. Or Ravens and Baltimore. Was there a tribe of Giants that lived in Manhattan? Did Raiders run rampant in Oakland? Tons of examples in all sports. I personally don’t care if the name is tied to the city, and it opens up the options.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1362154]Comanche's would be nice but one issue is the traditional logo was a member of the Blackfeet tribe.[/QUOTE]


They aren’t bringing back the logo or the name. Hang feathers on the W like Quinns shirt, call em the Comanches and raise hail. HTTC!

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1362177]Redskins was a derogatory term. Comanche isn’t. Chief isn’t. Brave isn’t. Seminole isn’t.
As far as your question about relation to the city well What does Titan have to do with Tennessee. Or Ravens and Baltimore. Was there a tribe of Giants that lived in Manhattan? Did Raiders run rampant in Oakland? Tons of examples in all sports. I personally don’t care if the name is tied to the city, and it opens up the options.[/quote]

Ravens and Baltimore are entirely linked. Edgar Allen Poe is buried there, and his most famous poem is The Raven. That was the inspiration for the team name and it's a pretty awesome connection.

But your point that there need not be a strong connection of name to geography isn't wrong -- the Cardinals kept the name even though they originated in St. Louis (and was the other Cardinals team in that city). Which reminds me that there's really no reason not to use the same name from another sport -- it shouldn't create any consumer confusion, which is the touchstone of trademark infringement. Having said that, I doubt they'd re-name the football team the Nationals (which I find bland), Capitals (same), Wizards (terrible name), or United (which I actually like a lot).

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1362177]Redskins was a derogatory term. Comanche isn’t. Chief isn’t. Brave isn’t. Seminole isn’t.
As far as your question about relation to the city well What does Titan have to do with Tennessee. Or Ravens and Baltimore. Was there a tribe of Giants that lived in Manhattan? Did Raiders run rampant in Oakland? Tons of examples in all sports. I personally don’t care if the name is tied to the city, and it opens up the options.[/quote]

The notion that Redskins was a derogatory term is still false in my opinion. Yes, some found it "offensive" or "racist". However, it's tough to find something that doesn't offend someone these days. When there are Native American High Schools with the Redskins mascot, that's enough for me.

Sadly, it'll never come back, I know. But it was never derogatory.

Anyway, Raise Hail I guess...

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1362177]Redskins was a derogatory term. Comanche isn’t. Chief isn’t. Brave isn’t. Seminole isn’t.
As far as your question about relation to the city well What does Titan have to do with Tennessee. Or Ravens and Baltimore. Was there a tribe of Giants that lived in Manhattan? Did Raiders run rampant in Oakland? Tons of examples in all sports. I personally don’t care if the name is tied to the city, and it opens up the options.[/quote]

Don't play into the disinformation about the Redskins being a derogatory term. Multiple studies by etymologists showed that it wasn't. In fact outright forgeries and fabrications were used to convince people that it was a derogatory term. And yes the media often supported that misinformation even when presented with information debunking the claims. That the name was dropped at all was an injustice (Maybe not a grave injustice given what happens in the world but an injustice none-the-less).

[url]https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/12/redskins-the-debate-over-the-washington-football-team-s-name-incorrectly-invokes-history.html[/url]

Couple of Examples

"....Before all this recent scholarship, though, one could be forgiven for thinking redskin had emerged from hostilities with the white man. For many years the first citation in the Oxford English Dictionary was dated 1699 and purported to come from Samuel Smith. It read, “Ye firste Meetinge House was solid mayde to withstande ye wicked onsaults of ye Red Skins.” It had been quoted from family papers in a book published in 1900 by Helen Evertson Smith.

But Goddard’s research undermined this earliest of citations. First, he explains, Smith’s words were “relentlessly antiqued”—made to appear older than they were. One giveaway was the use of ye, which was anachronistic for 1699. By investigating the underlying documentation Goddard further discovered a probable source for the quotation, bearing a different date and the word Indian, which Helen Evertson Smith had modified to redskin...."

"....the Post published a column by Eva Rodriguez, trotting out the bloody-scalp origin story. Goddard responded by writing a letter to the editor. First, he stated clearly that only current feelings about the word were relevant to determining whether redskin is offensive today, and then he objected strenuously to Rodriguez’s amateur scholarship:

What is not acceptable is for her to give as the only relevant historical fact the fictional claim that the word originally referred to scalps, for which there is no evidence.
But the Post’s letters editor would not allow Goddard to call the bloody-scalp claim “fictional,” and so deleted the word from his letter...."

[url]https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2013/12/why-is-the-word-redskin-so-offensive/[/url]

"....There is little evidence that the perception of “redskin” as an inherently offensive term for Native American existed before the late 1970’s or early 1980’s. Traditionally, the word “redskin” was viewed as a synonym for Indian or Native American and did not carry the sort of negative connotations that have long attached to ethnic slurs like ...." (I stopped the quote at this point to avoid any possible term violations)

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=calia;1362181]Ravens and Baltimore are entirely linked. Edgar Allen Poe is buried there, and his most famous poem is The Raven. That was the inspiration for the team name and it's a pretty awesome connection.

But your point that there need not be a strong connection of name to geography isn't wrong -- the Cardinals kept the name even though they originated in St. Louis (and was the other Cardinals team in that city). Which reminds me that there's really no reason not to use the same name from another sport -- it shouldn't create any consumer confusion, which is the touchstone of trademark infringement. Having said that, I doubt they'd re-name the football team the Nationals (which I find bland), Capitals (same), Wizards (terrible name), or United (which I actually like a lot).[/QUOTE]


You know as I made that comment about Baltimore and the Ravens I actually thought about googling it to see… interesting.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1362185]Don't play into the disinformation about the Redskins being a derogatory term. Multiple studies by etymologists showed that it wasn't. In fact outright forgeries and fabrications were used to convince people that it was a derogatory term. And yes the media often supported that misinformation even when presented with information debunking the claims. That the name was dropped at all was an injustice (Maybe not a grave injustice given what happens in the world but an injustice none-the-less).

[url]https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/12/redskins-the-debate-over-the-washington-football-team-s-name-incorrectly-invokes-history.html[/url]

Couple of Examples

"....Before all this recent scholarship, though, one could be forgiven for thinking redskin had emerged from hostilities with the white man. For many years the first citation in the Oxford English Dictionary was dated 1699 and purported to come from Samuel Smith. It read, “Ye firste Meetinge House was solid mayde to withstande ye wicked onsaults of ye Red Skins.” It had been quoted from family papers in a book published in 1900 by Helen Evertson Smith.

But Goddard’s research undermined this earliest of citations. First, he explains, Smith’s words were “relentlessly antiqued”—made to appear older than they were. One giveaway was the use of ye, which was anachronistic for 1699. By investigating the underlying documentation Goddard further discovered a probable source for the quotation, bearing a different date and the word Indian, which Helen Evertson Smith had modified to redskin...."

"....the Post published a column by Eva Rodriguez, trotting out the bloody-scalp origin story. Goddard responded by writing a letter to the editor. First, he stated clearly that only current feelings about the word were relevant to determining whether redskin is offensive today, and then he objected strenuously to Rodriguez’s amateur scholarship:

What is not acceptable is for her to give as the only relevant historical fact the fictional claim that the word originally referred to scalps, for which there is no evidence.
But the Post’s letters editor would not allow Goddard to call the bloody-scalp claim “fictional,” and so deleted the word from his letter...."

[url]https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2013/12/why-is-the-word-redskin-so-offensive/[/url]

"....There is little evidence that the perception of “redskin” as an inherently offensive term for Native American existed before the late 1970’s or early 1980’s. Traditionally, the word “redskin” was viewed as a synonym for Indian or Native American and did not carry the sort of negative connotations that have long attached to ethnic slurs like ...." (I stopped the quote at this point to avoid any possible term violations)[/QUOTE]


So not going down this road. Lol. U can find both sides of the coin on the internet. Ive read it is. Ive read it isn’t. Fact of the matter is it is up for debate. Unlike seminoles, chiefs, braves, etc. That was my only point. The name will never be Redskins again. Hopefully one day soon it isn’t Commanders. Red Hawks and keep the feathers??

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1362188]So not going down this road. Lol. U can find both sides of the coin on the internet. Ive read it is. Ive read it isn’t. Fact of the matter is it is up for debate. Unlike seminoles, chiefs, braves, etc. That was my only point. The name will never be Redskins again. Hopefully one day soon it isn’t Commanders. Red Hawks and keep the feathers??[/quote]

Ok you don't want to go down this road but one thing you won't find on the side of the debate that says Redskins is a slur are etymologists and probably not any other type of historian as well.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

would people consider it icky if we named them the blackskins?

it's dead jim; let it lie. not worth the trouble and it's not happening. No need to waste any more time on it.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

(as a post note, yes surveys showed most NAs didn't consider it offensive (some did), but most DID find the fans offensive (the ones with head dresses and hatchets and all that)).

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=That Guy;1362196]would people consider it icky if we named them the blackskins?

it's dead jim; let it lie. not worth the trouble and it's not happening. No need to waste any more time on it.[/quote]

Well when someone claims that "Redskins was a derogatory term" I will always seek to educate him on that erroneous belief. (Scholars say it's not, activists say it is - who should one believe)?

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDO2Nk0ImzvvW/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952ddgzkdoh60gu76s8iua06nuveor8eblwdvy9oht1&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g[/IMG]

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1362201][IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDO2Nk0ImzvvW/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952ddgzkdoh60gu76s8iua06nuveor8eblwdvy9oht1&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g[/IMG][/quote]

+1

I can't believe we're still debating this dumb shit, we haven't been the Redskins in at least 3+ years.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=mooby;1362202]+1

I can't believe we're still debating this dumb shit, we haven't been the Redskins in at least 3+ years.[/quote]

Dead horse meet the baseball bat

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/oaZk0WNSO7fXi/giphy.gif[/IMG]
For context lol

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

Well, I think it's fair to talk about. It's been debated ad nauseum, and we all know the name isn't coming back, but the conversation was sparked by the shirt worn by the new Head Coach. Like it or not (nothing burger or not) it was an event that occurred during this off-season and this isn't the only forum in which conversations about it are taking place.

What exactly was the purpose of wearing that shirt. I mean it was purposeful, right?

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

It’s a cool shirt, I don’t think it means anything else

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=mooby;1362202]+1

I can't believe we're still debating this dumb shit, we haven't been the Redskins in at least 3+ years.[/quote]

The minute someone claims Redskins is a derogatory term I will always respond. I will never cede to that claim when it is emphatically false. Additionally, that slurs the fans that still buy and wear the gear and ultimately poses a threat to them as well.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

@NickiJhabvala
Since this has come up ... Commanders owners have no plans in the works to change the name, according to a person with knowledge of the matter.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1362210]It’s a cool shirt, I don’t think it means anything else[/quote]

I don't even think it's a cool shirt. One thing (the feathers) has nothing to do with the other (Commanders W).

Someone printed that shirt to stir the pot - and it worked. He chose to wear it. Surely, he wasn't oblivious to that fact.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1362215]I don't even think it's a cool shirt. One thing (the feathers) has nothing to do with the other (Commanders W).



Someone printed that shirt to stir the pot - and it worked. He chose to wear it. Surely, he wasn't oblivious to that fact.[/QUOTE]Surely the pr people who let him walk in front of the presser weren't oblivious either. It's clear they are trying to figure out a way to re-engage the fan base and if it means keeping commanders they're going to struggle for a long time in my opinion.

edit: Also the people who are selling that shirt are going to make money where the Washington doesn't, Or vice versa if they are selling it through a third party and trying to gauge interest My brother JoeRedskin already bought that shirt, nd he hasn't bought Washington gear since the any of the changes, so I have a feeling it's going to have more interest than anything the Washington Commander sells

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Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

Dan Quinn on the T-shirt: "I think one of the parts of me taking this job, I was excited to bridge the past and the present. What a cool privilege that is to do. I also recognize there's a lot of layers to that. So, it was a great lesson for me. What I really hate is that any attention that would've been taken away from these rookies and this awesome crew. Nobody wants to do that."

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1362219]Dan Quinn on the T-shirt: "I think one of the parts of me taking this job, I was excited to bridge the past and the present. What a cool privilege that is to do. I also recognize there's a lot of layers to that. So, it was a great lesson for me. What I really hate is that any attention that would've been taken away from these rookies and this awesome crew. Nobody wants to do that."[/quote]

Numbnuts. :doh:

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1362215]I don't even think it's a cool shirt. One thing (the feathers) has nothing to do with the other (Commanders W).

Someone printed that shirt to stir the pot - and it worked. He chose to wear it. Surely, he wasn't oblivious to that fact.[/quote]

People in the military have worn feathers on their uniforms before. Those shirts are awesome. You're crazy.

[IMG]https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/pnp/ppmsca/67600/67684r.jpg[/IMG]

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1362211]The minute someone claims Redskins is a derogatory term I will always respond. I will never cede to that claim when it is emphatically false. Additionally, that slurs the fans that still buy and wear the gear and ultimately poses a threat to them as well.[/QUOTE]


Emphatically false huh? Ok. Scroll past the Smithsonian article. Lol. You are talking about a word that is literally centuries old and you were not around for any time on this Earth that it was used other than for a football team. It is completely up for debate like many things, so to say it is emphatically false because of an article you read is crazy. To ignore native Americans that think it is derogatory is crazy. It is emphatically a lightning rod for controversy but not emphatically false. There are most certainly articles that back that opinion just like the ones that back the other opinion. Im going to post one and then I won’t come back into this thread for a couple days so it gets buried and I can stop talking about, which I thought happened like 2 years ago. Lol.

[url]https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29318/redskin-name-update/[/url]

2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/CUbiYQbsKSGAM/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Im out……

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1362222]Emphatically false huh? Ok. Scroll past the Smithsonian article. Lol. You are talking about a word that is literally centuries old and you were not around for any time on this Earth that it was used other than for a football team. It is completely up for debate like many things, so to say it is emphatically false because of an article you read is crazy. To ignore native Americans that think it is derogatory is crazy. It is emphatically a lightning rod for controversy but not emphatically false. There are most certainly articles that back that opinion just like the ones that back the other opinion. Im going to post one and then I won’t come back into this thread for a couple days so it gets buried and I can stop talking about, which I thought happened like 2 years ago. Lol.

[url]https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29318/redskin-name-update/[/url][/quote]

The very first response in the comment section (and no that wasn't me).

"I am currently doing some research for the peer review of an academic paper, and began by Google searching "redskin etymology." This article came up on the first page. I felt the need to create an account and actually comment on this, which would probably go unread and be nothing more than a shout into the void, only because of my incredulity of the shoddiness of this publication's journalism. The article purports that there is a document from 1863 that proves that redskin refers to the scalp of a Native American, sold like a pelt, for cash. The document itself, however, directly contradicts this. "The state reward for dead Indians has been increased to $200 for every redskin sent to Purgatory." The author of this article may not be theologically inclined, but a scalp, in fact, cannot go to Purgatory, because this refers to a Catholic teaching about a state of purification before one goes to Heaven. Redskin, then, must refer to the individuals who possess the souls capable of being sent to such a theological state. Therefore, the document that the author says proves his claim directly contradicts it."

Again, it is scholars versus activists and obviously you find the activists take much more credible. And yes "emphatically false" is the correct description of the claim that Redskins is a derogatory term.

(BTW I didn't just cite Goddard (is there a better source?) the Marquet law school scholarly publication also provides damn good information refuting that claim).

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

I guess i'll be back in a couple days too. It's still a racial term, context matters. Cornbread and cracker can be used in an offensive context, and some people do take offense to it, or else the name wouldn't have changed. please stop, this is not the hill to die on.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

I used to argue the etymology thesis, then came around to the simple realization that the days of one race using another race as a mascot are over.


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Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1362146]Maybe they are gonna go with Comanches. They wouldn’t even have to change the first three letters , lol, and Comanches were the toughest mother fuckers in the land. Even Apaches were afraid of them.[/quote]

that's is a great name !!! gotta figure they had to consider that and if NOT someone f'd up 😀

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1362217]Surely the pr people who let him walk in front of the presser weren't oblivious either. It's clear they are trying to figure out a way to re-engage the fan base and if it means keeping commanders they're going to struggle for a long time in my opinion.

edit: Also the people who are selling that shirt are going to make money where the Washington doesn't, Or vice versa if they are selling it through a third party and trying to gauge interest[b] My brother JoeRedskin already bought that shirt, nd he hasn't bought Washington gear since the any of the changes, [/b] so I have a feeling it's going to have more interest than anything the Washington Commander sells

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk[/quote]


Me either, (any non redskins stuff anyway) ..... and I'd buy that shirt.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1362221]People in the military have worn feathers on their uniforms before. Those shirts are awesome. You're crazy.

[IMG]https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/pnp/ppmsca/67600/67684r.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

:D

:food-smil

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=HTTR;1362229]I used to argue the etymology thesis, then came around to the simple realization that the days of one race using another race as a mascot are over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

That is not what the discussion was about. What kicked this off was a claim that Redskins is a derogatory term. It's not and I provided enough evidence that shows it is not.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1362236]That is not what the discussion was about. What kicked this off was a claim that Redskins is a derogatory term. It's not and I provided enough evidence that shows it is not.[/QUOTE]no, you chose to argue that one point from a larger discussion of the name. most members said your point was irrelevant to the name argument and not worth revisiting. Ultimately, this whole discussion is off of the thread topic and could have been dropped, but the name issue still burns a lot of fans.

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Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=HTTR;1362229]I used to argue the etymology thesis, then came around to the simple realization that the days of one race using another race as a mascot are over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

That's what it boils down to, wild to me some still think anything NA related would actually fly as a potential new name.

I think new ownership is hoping for a quick turnaround, nothing will distract from the name like winning and an exciting young star QB. I also think a revamp of the uniforms is much more likely than another full re-branding.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1362242]That's what it boils down to, wild to me some still think anything NA related would actually fly as a potential new name.

I think new ownership is hoping for a quick turnaround, nothing will distract from the name like winning and an exciting young star QB. [B]I also think a revamp of the uniforms is much more likely than another full re-branding.[/B][/quote]

I would happily settle for a stud team and a uniform revamping. Honestly think the whole rebranding thing was mailed in, that whole "fan suggestions" thing was bs and Snyder liked Commanders from day one. The uniforms gotta be the most uninspiring look ever. Burgundy and gold was iconic and there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the colors.

If we get a competitive team and the uniforms are re-done I'll drop the name change argument.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1362237]no, you chose to argue that one point from a larger discussion of the name. most members said your point was irrelevant to the name argument and not worth revisiting. Ultimately, this whole discussion is off of the thread topic and could have been dropped, but the name issue still burns a lot of fans.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk[/quote]

And as I said I'll always throw the bullshit flag when that one (false) point is made. And anyone that knows that point is BS should always confront it when it is made.

2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1362236]That is not what the discussion was about. What kicked this off was a claim that Redskins is a derogatory term. It's not and I provided enough evidence that shows it is not.[/QUOTE]


This is pure opinion, not fact. And you’re shouting at clouds anyway - the name is gone and not coming back. It makes no sense to argue about any of this. We should be discussing the rookie minicamp, the upcoming schedule, Newton’s surgery, how Jacoby continues to get screwed by the HOF - basically anything related to football instead of rehashing this nonsense.


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Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=calia;1362250]This is pure opinion, not fact. And you’re shouting at clouds anyway - the name is gone and not coming back. It makes no sense to argue about any of this. We should be discussing the rookie minicamp, the upcoming schedule, Newton’s surgery, how Jacoby continues to get screwed by the HOF - basically anything related to football instead of rehashing this nonsense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

The name is not “fine”. It’s easily the weakest/stupidest name in the NFL, mirroring the clown who foisted it on us.

Re: 2024 Commanders Off-Season Thread
 

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdG9rYzVhYjMxM29mNDZlcnJiMnBkODdlMTQxM3B6Z2Z5Z2dhY2VnMiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3oEjHGZQS3Xvo94aty/giphy.gif[/IMG]