Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

I just don't like the idea of Joe Gibbs taking so much heat for supposedly not being as loyal to Patrick as he is to Mark Brunell, as if he likes Brunell more as person. What a bunch of crock!! Listen, Gibbs wants to win. Period! He's so passionate about this organization and he's willing to take whatever heat and make whatever unpopular decisions it takes to get the Redskins winning.

Joe Gibbs doesn't owe anything to Mark Brunell or Ramsey for that matter. His loyalty ultimately lies to, first himself as a coach, then the organization, and the fans - not necessarily in that order. But let's make it clear Gibbs owes no loyalty or "second" chances to one particular player. I believe Gibbs is as integral as they come (like most of us here believe about him) and IMO he's just making the best decision that will ultimately put the Redskins in a better position to win games.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]Thanks for the words of encouragement. The big boys on this board don't scare me at all. I've found that too many of them are willing to go whichever way Gibbs goes, without even thinking for themselves. Don't get me wrong, I used to love Gibbs and felt that he could do no wrong. I was so glad when Snyder brought him back. But my loyalty is not totally blind. At some point, you have to begin to think for yourself and stop following the leader, wherever he takes you, if you think the path he has chosen is wrong.

Never thought I would say this about Gibbs, but yesterday he lost a lot of the respect I always had in him. I am very disappointed in the shameful way he has treated Ramsey. It's now apparent that, despite what he said, Ramsey was never firmly his starting QB and that's what hurts the most - to realize you can no longer trust what Gibbs says. This is very detrimental to the team and its spirit.[/QUOTE]


What?? Trust me, Gibbs, after being enshrined in Canton and three Super Bowls, soon to be four Super Bowls, isn't after anyones respect.

Ultimatley Gibbs made this decision because whatever reason he had for benching Ramsey, Joe Gibbs had to sleep with Joe Gibbs at the end of the day and live or die with his own decisions as a coach. Look, the NFL is not about being loyal to any one player. Hell, if it were about loyalty Jerry Rice probably would have never ended up playing in Oakland or Seattle! They would have kept him around simply for the sake of 'loyalty'. ( I know we're talking about two different deals here, but you get my point.)

This is about winning games - and ultimately coach Gibbs has to be loyal to himself and the organization and the fans! We don't have to agree with everything he's doing. He wasn't brought here to be the most popular guy in town - he was brought here to win games.

This is the same Joe Gibbs that has released and benched players plenty of times in the past, this just happens to be a decision that he made more scrutnized because he publicly declared Patrick the starter. Well, guess what - Joe changed his mind in game two.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]To think you can make a better decision than Gibbs is insane. How many Super Bowl trophies have you won? Shoot, how many pop-warner trophies have you won? How many Skins meetings have you attended? How about practices? To say that you're more abreast of the situation than Gibbs is absolutely rediculous.

Big boy or not, every opinion matters, but I have take offense when opinions become intertwined with fuzzy stats and emotions.

I'm behind Gibbs 100%. Three Lombardi trophies don't lie.[/QUOTE]

And where did I say that I'm more abreast of the situation than Gibbs?

What I DID say is that I'm not afraid to question his decisions, if I don't agree with them. Apparently, there are many on this board who are ready to cannonize Gibbs, regardless of how the team is now performing. Guess I'm not one of those people - I prefer to think for myself.

Gibbs' 3 rings were achieved many, many years ago. The game is very different now and so is this Redskins team. The glory years are but a distant memory, unfortunately.

I was hoping that Gibbs could lead us back to future days of glory, but he took a giant step backwards yesterday, in my opinion.

Will I always love and root for the Skins? Absolutely.

Does that mean that I can't question those decisions that are made by the staff? Of course not.

Gibbs is not infallible, but I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If Brunell suddenly takes us on a winning streak, I will be very happy. But, something tells me that this is not going to happen.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]

What I DID say is that I'm not afraid to question his decisions, if I don't agree with them. Apparently, there are many on this board who are ready to cannonize Gibbs, regardless of how the team is now performing. Guess I'm not one of those people - I prefer to think for myself.[/QUOTE]

The arrogance you display in 'thinking for yourself' and questioning Gibbs makes you sound like you think you could run a team better than Gibbs, which I'd like to see.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

I haven't seen any arrogance from Lady T at all. She's simply saying that it's better for you to have an opinion then to blindly follow Gibbs -- I think that's a lesson that can be asserted to every facet of life.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

I have a question:

What if Steve Spurrier made this decision? Or anyone not named Gibbs...would you still be on board?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I haven't seen any arrogance from Lady T at all. She's simply saying that it's better for you to have an opinion then to blindly follow Gibbs -- I think that's a lesson that can be asserted to every facet of life.[/QUOTE]
I don't mind questioning, but to say that you could make better decisions is rediculous. But it seems that the questioning always comes with jabs to Gibbs' credibility and competance.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I have a question:

What if Steve Spurrier made this decision? Or anyone not named Gibbs...would you still be on board?[/QUOTE]
Daseal has already asked me this off-board; my answer was yes. If the database hadn't crashed and we lost all the posts from 2003, you would have been able to go back and seen exactly what I said.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Joe Knows...]Last year WAS Brunells fault. In my opinion, he had a lot to do with it. Of coarse much also lays on the recievers and backs for all of their dropped passes.

But that was LAST YEAR. Last year is OVER! This is THIS YEAR! It's a completely different season and there are a lot of variables from how one player performs from one season to the next. So far, I like what I've seen from Brunell THIS SEASON, and I do not from Patrick, THIS SEASON.

I can tell you how much I loved Patrick LAST YEAR and how much I thought he would be the guy LAST YEAR, but that wouldn't change a dang thing. It's past, it's over, and it's a new day. THIS YEAR has been a completely different story so far than what we saw last year.[/QUOTE]

this year from Ramsey lasted 19 minutes. got a good look? if you're basing it on preseason then you're looking at a very incomplete picture. afterall it was preseason that put Brunell in to ruin all of last season.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Really? Tell me you still think picking up Brunell was a good move. He's 3-6 as a starter. He got a 6 year, $42 million deal. Tell me what a good idea it was. I could have made a better personnel decision. That's right, I said it.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Look, I'm not saying that I would have made the same call, but I'm not the coach of a freakin NFL team! And neither is anyone else on this board.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I haven't seen any arrogance from Lady T at all. She's simply saying that it's better for you to have an opinion then to blindly follow Gibbs -- I think that's a lesson that can be asserted to every facet of life.[/QUOTE]


Agreed. Discussion boards wouldn't be very interesting if all there was to do was sit around and discuss how every decision made by our coach is wonderful, regardless of the outcome. At no point should ANYONE feel afraid to share their opinion for fear of being labeled "a fairweather fan." Look around folks, there aren't any fairweather fans left. The last few years have more than weeded them out. If people are on this board stating an opinion (aside from jokers like zackmills) it's because they love this TEAM. We all respect Joe Gibbs. If someone says they lost a little respect for his coaching ability because of a questionable personnel move, that's their right. Is Gibbs concerned with their respect? I'd say, probably not. Why should he be? But I don't think we should criticize anyone for sharing their opinions. Gibbs is a great coach. That's a proven fact by any metric. But he's not a deity. He can be questioned. I don't think anyone here claims to have more knowledge than Joe Gibbs. But that doesn't mean we can't share our opinions...

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]The arrogance you display in 'thinking for yourself' and questioning Gibbs makes you sound like you think you could run a team better than Gibbs, which I'd like to see.[/QUOTE]

Fail to see how I'm being "arrogant" simply because I choose to question this move by Gibbs. I've never blindly followed anyone and probably never will and that includes Presidents, Popes and, yes, football coaches.

Seems like you and I will never agree on this, but that's fine. Isn't that what this board is all about anyway - the chance to talk about the Skins and, yes, disagree on some things?

Or is anyone who doesn't always agree 100% with decisions made by the Skins staff not welcome here?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

I have a question for everybody:

Do you question the President?

Because we can't possibly know more about running the country than Bush. No one can say they've never been like "Damn, Bush is f*ckin up" or Clinton or Old Bush.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Quit playing the n00b/minority-opinion card. This site has never been about that, as you'll learn if you stick around. Like I said, I have no problem w/ differing opinions.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]And where did I say that I'm more abreast of the situation than Gibbs?

What I DID say is that I'm not afraid to question his decisions, if I don't agree with them. Apparently, there are many on this board who are ready to cannonize Gibbs, regardless of how the team is now performing. Guess I'm not one of those people - I prefer to think for myself.

Gibbs' 3 rings were achieved many, many years ago. The game is very different now and so is this Redskins team. The glory years are but a distant memory, unfortunately.

I was hoping that Gibbs could lead us back to future days of glory, but he took a giant step backwards yesterday, in my opinion.

Will I always love and root for the Skins? Absolutely.

Does that mean that I can't question those decisions that are made by the staff? Of course not.

Gibbs is not infallible, but I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If Brunell suddenly takes us on a winning streak, I will be very happy. But, something tells me that this is not going to happen.[/QUOTE]

Sweetheart, no one is saying Gibbs is infallible and certainly to a man or woman, we have all disagreed with some decision Joe Gibbs has made. Just refer to the thread of the most recent roster cuts. Everyone's opinion varied somewhere.

But the thing we all have to see here is though we say that the Super Bowls were many, many years ago and the glory days are something of the past - it's that same powerful past and those same glory days that has endeared us all to this franchise. Yes, the glory days are in the past and yes the Super Bowls were many, many years ago, but please don't minimize or diminish in any way those huge accomplishments and great tradition of winning because they are most definitely in one way or another connected to the very reason we are talking about the Redskins on this thread in the first place.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I have a question for everybody:

Do you question the President?

Because we can't possibly know more about running the country than Bush. No one can say they've never been like "Damn, Bush is f*ckin up" or Clinton or Old Bush.[/QUOTE]
This has no place here and is liable to start another riot.:D

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]This has no place here and is liable to start another riot.[/QUOTE]

That's not true. If you can question the president why can't you question Gibbs. I'm not saying anything about my feelings toward the president, I'm simply saying if you can question the President of the United States you can question the Head Coach of the Washington Redskins, whoever that may be.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]Look, I'm not saying that I would have made the same call, but I'm not the coach of a freakin NFL team! And neither is anyone else on this board.[/QUOTE]

quick question cpayne, how many games would you have let Brunell keep losing last season when you had a healthy young backup with experience right there?

actually one more, why focus all your practice snaps with the new offense on a backup you had no intention of giving a real chance in the regular season?

Gibbs says so himself, these decisions are mostly based on his instinct, just like last year and we saw the results of that. is it feasible that Gibbs' instincts could be rusty after 11 years? it was rusty for Vermeil. you probably knew more current NFL players than Gibbs last year believe it or not, it's OK to question him especially this early in his comeback. he's mortal

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Sweetheart, no one is saying Gibbs is infallible and certainly to a man or woman, we have all disagreed with some decision Joe Gibbs has made. Just refer to the thread of the most recent roster cuts. Everyone's opinion varied somewhere.

But the thing we all have to see here is though we say that the Super Bowls were many, many years ago and the glory days are something of the past - it's that same powerful past and those same glory days that has endeared us all to this franchise. Yes, the glory days are in the past and yes the Super Bowls were many, many years ago, but please don't minimize or diminish in any way those huge accomplishments and great tradition of winning because they are most definitely in one way or another connected to the very reason we are talking about the Redskins on this thread in the first place.[/QUOTE]

I would never diminish or minimize those glory days. They were the best of times for Skins fans and I would dearly love to see them repeated.

But, since then, we've had nothing but misery (in varying degrees) and I fear more of the same this season. QB is the most important position on the team and I do not believe that Brunell will ever take us back to the playoffs. With Ramsey, I feel we at least had a chance and maybe, in the future, the rookie will get us there. But not MB, not this season, not ever.

BTW - I'm already someone else's "sweetheart", babycakes.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]That's not true. If you can question the president why can't you question Gibbs. I'm not saying anything about my feelings toward the president, I'm simply saying if you can question the President of the United States you can question the Head Coach of the Washington Redskins, whoever that may be.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs is running a football team, let's put things in perspective.

Bush is running the entire country, his decisions and actions impact our lives.

There's nothing wrong with questioning anybody, but people's harsh reactions towards Gibbs are a little overboard and uncalled for in my opinion.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]This has no place here and is liable to start another riot.:D[/QUOTE]

its very relevant, lots of people here are insulting those with differing views and saying they're not really fans and why can't they trust gibbs etc...

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Gibbs is running a football team, let's put things in perspective.

Bush is running the entire country, his decisions and actions impact our lives.

There's nothing wrong with questioning anybody, but people's harsh reactions towards Gibbs are a little overboard and uncalled for in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I'm less happy when the Redskins lose...that impacts my life.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

I don't think the people that are supporting the switch are "blindly" following Gibbs.

I'm trying to see & understand the rationale behind the move.

If Ramsey was playing well there would be no discussion, he would be the starter.

Ramsey played himself out of the job, why is that so hard to see?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Gibbs is running a football team, let's put things in perspective.

Bush is running the entire country, his decisions and actions impact our lives.

There's nothing wrong with questioning anybody, but people's harsh reactions towards Gibbs are a little overboard and uncalled for in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

You can apply what you said to Gibbs' decision of yesterday, which many of us believe is also more than "a little overboard and uncalled for".

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

You guys are totally not understanding my position.

I was going to post a quick reply, but I don't really have time to formulate a response in a form that I'd be happy with at this time, but I'll be back later on this afternoon.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

I was up till 3 in the morning on the Warpath...I'd say the Redskins performance impacts my life and a lot of other people's too.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I don't think the people that are supporting the switch are "blindly" following Gibbs.

I'm trying to see & understand the rationale behind the move.

If Ramsey was playing well there would be no discussion, he would be the starter.

Ramsey played himself out of the job, why is that so hard to see?[/QUOTE]

How can someone play themselves out of a job in less than half a game? By those standards, MB played himself permanently out of a job with his 8 horrible games of last year.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]I would never diminish or minimize those glory days. They were the best of times for Skins fans and I would dearly love to see them repeated.

But, since then, we've had nothing but misery (in varying degrees) and I fear more of the same this season. QB is the most important position on the team and I do not believe that Brunell will ever take us back to the playoffs. With Ramsey, I feel we at least had a chance and maybe, in the future, the rookie will get us there. But not MB, not this season, not ever.

BTW - I'm already someone else's "sweetheart", babycakes.[/QUOTE]

LOL- Okay, I'll chill on the sweetheart!

Name me one franchise that hasn't experienced years of losing. Even the Pats, before the most recent Super Bowls and the one in the 80's ( and even back then they were mediocre) have experienced decades of losing. This type of think goes in cycles.

Think about there are about 5 or 6 teams that have never been to a Super Bowl, and more than half who have never won one. But I get your point.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

....and I wouldn't be so quick to say that Brunell won't lead us to the playoffs either.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]How can someone play themselves out of a job in less than half a game? By those standards, MB played himself permanently out of a job with his 8 horrible games of last year.[/QUOTE]

Less than half a game?

How about the entire offseason including OTA's, minicamp, training camp and 4 preseason games.

Ramsey had the chance to secure the job. He didn't lose the job on Sunday against the Bears. He lost it over the course of the entire offseason and preseason.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Preseason games mean nothing, after this much time Joe Gibbs should know that.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Will somebody please tell me what Ramsey has done to win your unrelenting support?

Was it the 65 QB rating in the preseason? The 4 INTs? Or maybe it was the 2 fumbles and 1 INT in three series worth of work against Chicago?

Talk about blindly following someone.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Less than half a game?

How about the entire offseason including OTA's, minicamp, training camp and 4 preseason games.

Ramsey had the chance to secure the job. He didn't lose the job on Sunday against the Bears. He lost it over the course of the entire offseason and preseason.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't think Gibbs just yanked based on what he saw in Chicago, it was more like what he saw and what he hasn't seen for the past couple of months. I think Gibbs has been stewing this one for a while.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]Preseason games mean nothing, after this much time Joe Gibbs should know that.[/QUOTE]

They meant something for Ramsey.

If he played well and didn't throw 4 INTs, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Less than half a game?

How about the entire offseason including OTA's, minicamp, training camp and 4 preseason games.

Ramsey had the chance to secure the job. He didn't lose the job on Sunday against the Bears. He lost it over the course of the entire offseason and preseason.[/QUOTE]

Brunell "won" last offseason as well, what did that prove? a rhythm is established in real game situations with all your personnel, all your plays, and all your 60 minutes. not in preseason, or wearing shorts in practice. didn't last year prove that?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Don't name him the starter. That's it. Just make it Brunell or say that they're having an open competition and give that to Brunell. That's the biggest problem. What did Brunell do to earn a second chance? Regular season is what it's about.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Less than half a game?

How about the entire offseason including OTA's, minicamp, training camp and 4 preseason games.

Ramsey had the chance to secure the job. He didn't lose the job on Sunday against the Bears. He lost it over the course of the entire offseason and preseason.[/QUOTE]

since when does preseason mean anything? its not like brunell took snaps on the first string to make a comparision.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]They meant something for Ramsey.

If he played well and didn't throw 4 INTs, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.[/QUOTE]

That's why it's a mistake, IMO. Preseason games don't count for a reason. I said in another post. Roethlisberger looked terrible. The Colts were 0-5. The Broncos were 4-0.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]LOL- Okay, I'll chill on the sweetheart!

Name me one franchise that hasn't experienced years of losing. Even the Pats, before the most recent Super Bowls and the one in the 80's ( and even back then they were mediocre) have experienced decades of losing. This type of think goes in cycles.

Think about there are about 5 or 6 teams that have never been to a Super Bowl, and more than half who have never won one. But I get your point.[/QUOTE]

You're right, we Skins fans have a lot to be thankful for. As you say, some teams have never experienced the thrill of winning it all.

I guess it's because we're all so passionate about the team and we've all had so many years wandering the desert (so to speak), that we are desperate to have things turned around. So, the move to another QB gets everyone's attention because it is so key to the question of whether this will be a successful season or just one more spent "wandering in the desert."

It's so **** frustrating.