Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;328724]Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.[/QUOTE]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

"Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

--Benjamin Franklin

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;328779]Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.[/QUOTE]

Well if Gore wins his own damn state of Tennessee then he gets enough electoral votes and Florida isn't even an issue. Where's the outcry over that?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;328780]Total nonsense.[/quote]
Because a right winger said it, or because there is evidence he is still alive?

Just curious...

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

didn't they just release a new bin laden video? i really think if anyone in this administration thought he was dead, it would be a big announcement on fox news

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;328775]Try reading something or watching a news show.[/QUOTE]

This will likely be the only response I make to you since you have no clue what it takes to debate, rather you prefer to assume and throw insults.
So my suggestion to you sir is to try to read OBJECTIVE articles, and actually see things for what they really are.
If you choose to listen to all the same left wing drivel then that is your choice, but don't assume things are not the way they are just because you read something at one point. Trust me, I read more than most people, and I am very well educated, you might actually know that if you were here for longer than 107 posts.
You don't have to like what I say, hell that's America...I know I am the minority in my thinking, but use links to disprove me, not say you need to read more. That just makes you look lazy and unwilling to debate. Especially since you don't seem to know your ass from your elbow.
So the ball is in your court. You can either get pissed at my comments, or you can take them to heart and try to make an actual debate.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;328823]"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

"Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

--Benjamin Franklin[/QUOTE]

Sadly, I agree with you...and Ben.
Either way you look at it, we're not in a good scenario. If we don't boost safety, we are in more danger, if we do boost safety we then we infringe on rights. It's basically a catch 22. Fact is, we have been "hated" so long that this was bound to happen. That's what happens when you're #1, everyone wants to take you down a peg. This is why every great government in history has failed at some point. Make no mistake about it, this one will too.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;328791]I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. [/QUOTE]


You're not the only one.
While I have been on the other side of your wrath :D I have always respected you and most people here with your willingness to have a constructive argument. I will never in a million years agree with anything the left says, but I can certainly respect it, and think about what you've said.
Fact is, 99.999999% of us will never change our minds here, but all of us can open our ears and listen without being a jackass.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=dmek25;328820]matty, you started out civil, but have got more and more intense with your posts. why? because some people see a spade, but yet call it a diamond?[/quote]

huh? I've barely contributed to this thread.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;328843]Sadly, I agree with you...and Ben.
Either way you look at it, we're not in a good scenario. If we don't boost safety, we are in more danger, if we do boost safety we then we infringe on rights. It's basically a catch 22. Fact is, we have been "hated" so long that this was bound to happen. That's what happens when you're #1, everyone wants to take you down a peg. This is why every great government in history has failed at some point. Make no mistake about it, this one will too.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is a catch 22 -- you can't have both. I just wish America would understand that. IMO, it is one of those very rare absolutes. If you sacrifice any liberty for security, it is only a matter of time until you have no liberties -- and therefore no security.

I think those quotes offer good insight into the minds of the Founders, and the purpose they saw for the government. It is clear to me that the Founders did not deem personal security a responsibility of the government. Instead, the government's role was to ensure that the people's liberties were protected. I guess we have just gotten lazy and weak over the years, and now we expect the government to protect us.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328852]huh? I've barely contributed to this thread.[/QUOTE]

Some of us are still waiting for your 1 positive on GW.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;328854]Yes, it is a catch 22 -- you can't have both. I just wish America would understand that. IMO, it is one of those very rare absolutes. If you sacrifice any liberty for security, it is only a matter of time until you have no liberties -- and therefore no security.

I think those quotes offer good insight into the minds of the Founders, and the purpose they saw for the government. It is clear to me that the Founders did not deem personal security a responsibility of the government. Instead, the government's role was to ensure that the people's liberties were protected. I guess we have just gotten lazy and weak over the years, and now we expect the government to protect us.[/QUOTE]

I 100% agree. Very good post.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328855]Some of us are still waiting for your 1 positive on GW.[/quote]

I've probably gotten more laughter out of him than any other President.

Anytime he opens his mouth something laughable is bound to come out.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328857]I've probably gotten more laughter out of him than any other President.

Anytime he opens his mouth something laughable is bound to come out.[/QUOTE]


While I admit, I chuckled at that comment from you, that is in no way a positive. Try again.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;328787]So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.[/quote]

Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Sixty minutes reported on what you never heard of, as well as virtually every talk show and newspaper in the country. Blacks from the House of Delegates went to the Senate with the material. All that was needed was for one Senator to back the protest for there to be a major investigation of the already proven disenfranchisement. Gore asked all the Senators in the Senate not to support the House protest. He was apparently in a patriotic mood and decided not to vote for the Congressional investigation. Gore voting "no" was shown on nation television, over and over. No disenfranchisements resulting from computer cliches were protested or alledged.
I realize you believe what you keep saying, but you are factually incorrect again and again. People cannot develope worthwhile opinions without correct data. The prevailing fault of the Bush supporters in this thread is that they are reasoning from incorrect data or attitudes that derive from ignorance of data. Virtually everything jsarno say is wrong, not because of his logic, which is fine, but rather the nonsensical myth and pseudo knowledge he reasons from.
Jeb Bush himself was suspected of being behind employing the Florida Computer firm that used the Texas felon list to knock identically named blacks from the the Florida voting list. There is no doubt that the fraud occurred, only doubt about the identities of the people who sat it up. The computer firm that perpetuated the fraud was paid by the state of Florida with taxpayer money.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;328824]Well if Gore wins his own damn state of Tennessee then he gets enough electoral votes and Florida isn't even an issue. Where's the outcry over that?[/quote]

That has nothing to do with anything.