Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

I think some of you folks have gotten carried away about Cooper. NFL teams don't draft WR's very often in the Top 5. In the last 8 drafts (which is as far as I cared to go back), only four WR's were drafted in the Top 5. They were Calvin Johnson (2007), AJ Green (2011), Justin Blackmon (2012), and Sammy Watkins (2014). IMO, Cooper does not possess the exceptional abilities of any of those players and is therefore not worthy of a Top 5 pick based on established NFL draft practices.

Here's the positions that NFL teams tend to draft for in the Top 5: QB, DT, LOT, and Edge Rusher. In fact, in 2013 all of the Top 5 picks were either LOT (3) or Edge Rushers (2). I say we should look to one of the four above positions for the Redskins' pick at #5. It's highly unlikely that we'll have the opportunity to draft a QB there, so that leaves Williams, Fowler, Beasley, Scherff, or my long shot, surprising enough to make Mel Kiper's pompadour fall flat, pick Ereck Flowers.

I realize that Scherff or Flowers would probably play RT now for the Redskins, but they could move to LT later in their careers when Trent hangs up his cleats.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1111084]Say Fowler goes to Jax, as some project, and, similarly, Oakland goes with White over Cooper. Who do you pick at 5? Williams, Cooper or Beasley.[/quote]I pick Williams. No questions asked..even if it was Fowler and not Beasley I would still pick Williams.

I think its much easier to find a good edge rusher then it is to find an impactful 34 DE and our DL needs them...Hatcher is merely a rental. And more importantly for me Leonard is clearly the BPA in my eyes.

[quote]....lack of "sure thing"edness, and Cooper's guaranteed (as guaranteed as a draft pick can be) high floor. (Every talking head and analyst says all this guy's comparable's are perennial pro bowler/HOFer's - like Williams, he appears to be about as close to a sure thing as you can get in the draft).[/quote]I don't buy that whole sure thing or guarantee baloney some draft guys say. I think prediction is a myth because people are people there is no predicting what anyone will do. HOWEVER I believe in assessment and evaluation and based on those I believe its possible to accurately rank the draft eligible players based on what we can know. Prediction? Imho is myth. Any prospect can bust or pro-bowler from the 1st pick to an UDFA and the difference in talent that separates is never as great as we think. The difference in actual talent between a 1st round QB and UDFA isn't nearly as wide a margin as the distance in their draft selection.

I say all that only to say any prospect can bust and there are no guarantees.

[quote]....Confronted by the Cooper/Fowler/Beasley conundrum[/quote]For my money I'll take Cooper.

I lean more towards being a BPA guy then a 'need' guy but even when it comes to need I wouldn't put OLB/edge rusher as a premium 1st round need on this team. I'm of the mindset that you a 34 defense "needs" 1 premium OLB pass rusher and having a 2nd while nice isn't something to chase after at the expense of other positions.

Also I think Coopers impact on the passing game would be greater then any other receiver selected in this draft and I'm not sure about the difference between Fowler/Beasley and say an Eli Harold or Nate Orchard or Frank Clark or Davis Tull or Deion Barnes or Art Norman. Heck the top rookie edge rusher last year weren't first rounders they were 5th rounders.

So given the choice between Cooper/Fowler/Beasely I take Cooper easy.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

I hate the later draft.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1111112]
I lean more towards being a BPA guy then a 'need' guy but even when it comes to need I wouldn't put OLB/edge rusher as a premium 1st round need on this team. I'm of the mindset that you a 34 defense "needs" 1 premium OLB pass rusher and having a 2nd while nice isn't something to chase after at the expense of other positions.[/quote]

I have two problems with your position on this:

1. While he is a very good football player, Kerrigan isn't what I consider to be a premium OLB pass rusher.

2. Since when is one top-notch edge rusher enough? It seems to me that just about every NFL team is looking to have a pair of them. Some teams can't seem to get enough of them.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1111078]First off, Cooper is 6' 1"/211 lbs. Plenty of size.

As to your main point, however, I have said it before, passing on a guy you believe to be the BPA b/c he doesn't fit an [I]immediate[/I] need is the definition of short term thinking and what has gotten this franchise into so much trouble in the past. If Scot McC thinks Cooper is the clear cut BPA at 5, he should take him. If - and only if - it's a toss-up to Scot McC as to who is the BPA between Cooper and Fowler/Beasley, sure, then need plays a part.

Yes. We have an [I]immediate[/I] need for pass-rushers. Betting on a rookie - even the 5 pick - to resolve that need is pretty damn risky. Particularly when all of the prospective pass rushers are flawed in some way and there is no clear "I am the guy" at the position and, instead, three or four "I may be The Guy but I may be a bust" players at the position.

However, we also have a [I]long term[/I] need for the best football players we can get at every position. Betting on finding one of those by picking the BPA - regardless of position - at the 5 pick is as close to a gimme as you can get in the draft process.

Build for the long term, become a solid team, [I]then[/I] take some risks.[/quote] I don't know about you but 6'1 doesn't impress me due to the fact that there are a lot of corners in this league that's 6'0+. If you're talking about a guy in 6'5 or 6'6 range then you're talking a match up nightmare.

This team has been needing a consistent pass rush for years. It's an immediate, short, and long term need. If you ever want to ever have a good team? We need a good defense. There are some good pass rushers in this draft. I'm more than willing to risk getting one of them before a draft a player we definitely don't need.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1111079]Ahhh the ole need vs BPA question.

I think there is a case that not only is Cooper possible BPA he also fills a critical need both short term and long term.

Coop is a complete WR unlike DeSean who is one of the best deep threat but doesn't run a complete route tree or Garcon who is a great after the catch and a great blocker but doesn't consistently 'win' in man to man or achieve clear separation with his routes.

...Oh and in the immediate long term as early as next year Garcon and maybe even DeSean could be gone.[/quote]SMH...We have to have the dumbest fans in the league. What difference does another wr make when your offensive line getting manhandled? Poor pass protection and poor run blocking will always have a negative outcome. What differences would another wr make if your defense can't get off the field? Giving average qbs forever to find a wr will always end disastrous. Outside of the qb position these are one of the main reasons why we're losing. How does Cooper address any of these major issues? I would really like to know.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111119]SMH...We have to have the dumbest fans in the league. What difference does another wr make when your offensive line getting manhandled? Poor pass protection and poor run blocking will always have a negative outcome. What differences would another wr make if your defense can't get off the field? Giving average qbs forever to find a wr will always end disastrous. Outside of the qb position these are one of the main reasons why we're losing. How does Cooper address any of these major issues? I would really like to know.[/quote]

We have the dumbest fans in the league because we agree with the philosophy the smartest GMs in the league use?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1111120]We have the dumbest fans in the league because we agree with the philosophy the smartest GMs in the league use?[/quote]
I don't think the smartest GM in the league would draft a wr 5th overall with all of the holes on this team. I don't think any fan with a half a brain cell would want him to do it.

Answer my question. How does Cooper address any of these needs?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111122]I don't think the smartest GM in the league would draft a wr 5th overall with all of the holes on this team. I don't think any fan with a half a brain cell would want him to do it.

Answer my question. How does Cooper address any of these needs?[/quote]

It doesnt answer a need, but it does get better talent on the team. The problem with drafting for need is you are always taking lesser players. One year, not much difference. 5 years later, you have average talent at a lot of positions when you could have above average talent at a lot of positions. If you draft for need one year, you will continue down that track.

I personally am hoping Fowler or Williams falls to us, but that doesnt mean if the GM thinks the best talent available is a WR, that he should pass on taking the pick. Football players have a limited time in the league, At some point in the future, we will need new WR's.

Drafting a WR this year when we have 2 high paid WR's that have contracts running out in a year or two means we wont have to scramble then, and can let them walk giving us extra money to pursue other talent.

I want to fix the OL and defense first and foremost, but I dont want us taking lesser talent than we could have and claiming that we did good in the draft because we may have filled a hole. Take BPA at every pick. 5 years down the road, the team is so much better for it. The draft for need stuff is short sighted and leads to bad teams. Just look at the Redskins the last couple of decades. Chasing high priced FA's and drafting for need, not talent.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111122]I don't think the smartest GM in the league would draft a wr 5th overall with all of the holes on this team. I don't think any fan with a half a brain cell would want him to do it.

Answer my question. How does Cooper address any of these needs?[/quote]

Straight up BPA....He apparently lives by it.
Live it.....Know it....Love it......

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

I like Cooper a lot...with a few of the guys that are pretty certain to be there at 5 Cooper isn't the slam dunk BPA. There will be at least 1 very good OLB that has similar upside to Cooper and various other top-end players. Cooper would be a luxury

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1111112]I pick Williams. No questions asked..even if it was Fowler and not Beasley I would still pick Williams.

I think its much easier to find a good edge rusher then it is to find an impactful 34 DE and our DL needs them...Hatcher is merely a rental. And more importantly for me Leonard is clearly the BPA in my eyes.

I don't buy that whole sure thing or guarantee baloney some draft guys say. I think prediction is a myth because people are people there is no predicting what anyone will do. HOWEVER I believe in assessment and evaluation and based on those I believe its possible to accurately rank the draft eligible players based on what we can know. Prediction? Imho is myth. Any prospect can bust or pro-bowler from the 1st pick to an UDFA and the difference in talent that separates is never as great as we think. The difference in actual talent between a 1st round QB and UDFA isn't nearly as wide a margin as the distance in their draft selection.

I say all that only to say any prospect can bust and there are no guarantees.

For my money I'll take Cooper.

I lean more towards being a BPA guy then a 'need' guy but even when it comes to need I wouldn't put OLB/edge rusher as a premium 1st round need on this team. I'm of the mindset that you a 34 defense "needs" 1 premium OLB pass rusher and having a 2nd while nice isn't something to chase after at the expense of other positions.

Also I think Coopers impact on the passing game would be greater then any other receiver selected in this draft and I'm not sure about the difference between Fowler/Beasley and say an Eli Harold or Nate Orchard or Frank Clark or Davis Tull or Deion Barnes or Art Norman. Heck the top rookie edge rusher last year weren't first rounders they were 5th rounders.

So given the choice between Cooper/Fowler/Beasely I take Cooper easy.[/quote]

wr's can be found anywhere in the draft. Look around the league and see how many mid rounders are playing. Elite pass rushers are much harder to find. We only have one pass rusher and he's not even elite. Obviously we still struggle to get off the field on 3rd down and getting a sack master seems to be a priority. Murphy simply didn't show that skill set last year.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111118]I don't know about you but 6'1 doesn't impress me due to the fact that there are a lot of corners in this league that's 6'0+. If you're talking about a guy in 6'5 or 6'6 range then you're talking a match up nightmare.

This team has been needing a consistent pass rush for years. It's an immediate, short, and long term need. If you ever want to ever have a good team? We need a good defense. There are some good pass rushers in this draft. I'm more than willing to risk getting one of them before a draft a player we definitely don't need.[/quote]

DeSean Jackson is a matchup nightmare, Steve Smith was a matchup nightmare, Santana Moss, Hakeem Nicks, Odell Beckham, Dez Bryant, Torry Holt, Wes Welker all these guys are or were matchup nightmares, you just don't want to draft a WR, but don't make it seem like if you aren't 6'5" you can't be a matchup nightmare.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

Drafting Cooper would be a mistake. Cooper might be a great receiver but good teams don't invest 1st round picks in receivers. Just look at the two Superbowl teams and how many 1st rounders they used on their receivers. It is like drafting a Running Back in the 1st round.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=donofriose;1111146]Drafting Cooper would be a mistake. Cooper might be a great receiver but good teams don't invest 1st round picks in receivers. Just look at the two Superbowl teams and how many 1st rounders they used on their receivers. It is like drafting a Running Back in the 1st round.[/quote]

Didn't 6 teams just draft a WR in the first Rd last year? If Cooper is the BPA, take him