re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Snyder has not fired a coach after one season in 8 years.

The issue with Shottenheimer was that he wanted all the power. They parted ways.

I think the 'firing' of Zorn is a false issue. Zorn has done the best he can with an average team. Our issues are a weak and old OL and DL. That's what every "expert" has been saying about the Redskins for the last 5 weeks.

Only in the hypercritical Washington market do people want an instant success. Then others will complain that the team is fickle and narrow-minded.

Snyder has backed the last two coaches. He will back Zorn for three seasons.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=A10sROCK;513962]Snyder has not fired a coach after one season in 8 years.

The issue with Shottenheimer was that he wanted all the power. They parted ways.

I think the 'firing' of Zorn is a false issue. Zorn has done the best he can with an average team. Our issues are a weak and old OL and DL. [B]That's what every "expert" has been saying about the Redskins for the last 5 weeks. Only in the hypercritical Washington market do people want an instant success. Then others will complain that the team is fickle and narrow-minded.[/B]

Snyder has backed the last two coaches. He will back Zorn for three seasons.[/quote]

What's with the quotes around the word 'expert'? Clearly, the experts were right, and this joke of a front office has been wrong. And what makes you think the market of fans in Washington are the only ones who want instant success? Every market wants that. And with the way the NFL is structured, just about every team has that ability. Look at Atlanta and Miami. Those turnarounds are about as instantaneous as you can get.

It's absurd to say that fans of the Redskins are "hypercritical" or the most impatient when for 10 years we've suffered through F'ed up drafts, over-paid and overrated free agent disasters, draft picks tossed down the drain, the most expensive ticket prices in the league, the most expensive hot dogs and beers in the league, all to watch a team with a losing record ever since the franchise was taken over by complete buffoons. For TEN YEARS we've put up with this crap -- and some people have the audacity to say we're just not patient enough.

[B]The issue with Shottenheimer was that he wanted all the power. They parted ways.[/B]

False. According to the terms of the original contract, Schottenheimer [I]already had [/I]complete control. Then after the season finished, Snyder tried to weasel his way back [I]into[/I] control of personnel decisions and assistant coaching hires which was in total violation of that contract. Schottenheimer refused to relent, and Lil' Danny fired him.

Lil' Danny's next act of wisdom was to bring in the flavor of the nanosecond -- Steve Spurrier, and as we all know, that set the franchise back even further.

It's botch-job after botch-job with our dork of an owner. Looking back, Marty probably had things moving in the right direction better than any other coach. And that includes Joe Gibbs.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

More than anything, Snyder wanted Schottenheimer to focus on coaching the team and he was trying to hire a general manager. Remember, we were close to getting Beathard back. But no one wanted to come so long as they didn't have control over the scouting department, the draft board, etc. (all stuff that Marty oversaw and wouldn't give up).

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;514035]More than anything, Snyder wanted Schottenheimer to focus on coaching the team and he was trying to hire a general manager. Remember, we were close to getting Beathard back. But no one wanted to come so long as they didn't have control over the scouting department, the draft board, etc. ([B]all stuff that Marty oversaw and wouldn't give up[/B]).[/quote]

Nor should he have had to. The contract stated Marty had complete control. Danny didn't like that, so he went back on his word and attempted to get Marty to void key terms of the contract. Schottenheimer stood his ground -- just as the contract said he could.

Danny made Beathard a bullsh*t offer to make it appear that every effort was made to get him here. Bottom line was that the Boy Owner couldn't stand not having his greasy little hands in the mix along with Vinny back as his right-hand man. Then Spurrier came along.

And the rest was misery, er ...history.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=A10sROCK;513962]Snyder has not fired a coach after one season in 8 years.

The issue with Shottenheimer was that he wanted all the power. They parted ways.

I think the 'firing' of Zorn is a false issue. Zorn has done the best he can with an average team. Our issues are a weak and old OL and DL. That's what every "expert" has been saying about the Redskins for the last 5 weeks.

Only in the hypercritical Washington market do people want an instant success. Then others will complain that the team is fickle and narrow-minded.

Snyder has backed the last two coaches. He will back Zorn for three seasons.[/quote]


8 yrs is a long time. I imagine Snyder is ready to do that again by now. Hypercritical....yep call me that. Call me whatever you want. Our owner also does not like to be embarrassed. The latter part of the season was an embarrassement. I'll agree and say I doubt Snyder will fire Zorn. Only cause Snyder also does not like to look wrong or be told I told you so.

The only issue I have is Zorn looked like he was not capable of adjustment. I have mentioned on several boards that I wonder if Snyder can figure out a way to bring in a HC and still keep Zorn as OC, but the more I look at it if Zorn can't adjust his play calls or game during the season or games then why should he be retained as OC? and if we are going to let him go and look elsewhere then I would have to say Snyder lets stop with the ...."we are one year away from the SB" antics and decide its not working everytime. It's always the same. Lets get this big name cause he will take us there. It's time to call it "rebuild." Lets hire someone who will rebuild this team with younger players and healthy players and not throw away draft picks.

I can see this happening only if he is able to swindle Cowher out of retirement. and to be honest I'm not impressed with any of the coach's and that includes Buges this year. I think they asked Buges to coach a system he is not comfortable or expirienced in using. He used to be able to coach someone out of a wet paper bag. Look at Heyer last yr. This yr he looks a mess. Out of all the coach's available out there I like I think I like Cowher the best. I also know it took him something like 10 yrs to get to the SB. So maybe Snyder can lower everyones expectations simply by saying we are going to rebuild. Then no one will expect anything. Every yr we end up the same cause we are told this team has talent and it only needs one thing to get to the SB.

1st it was Shotty then gone after one yr. 2nd it was Spurrier cause his offense was going to light it up in the NFL. gone. 3rd Gibbs would bring us back. but it didn't. Then we needed Saunders. that didn't work. Now Zorn and the WCO had to work right. We have all the talent but we simply have to find a system that fits the players in order to get to the SB. How about we just do something different and rebuild. get rid of all the old players and bring in young ones who are hungry.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

On Monday Night Countdown, Chris Mortensen just said Jim Zorn's job was safe. I don't know how solid that is, but Mort seemed pretty confident about it.

To me, Snyder seems like the kind of guy who makes impulsive decisions, and once he's made those decisions there's not much that will change his mind. The Bengal game probably did Zorn in.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;514938]On Monday Night Countdown, Chris Mortensen just said Jim Zorn's job was safe. I don't know how solid that is, but Mort seemed pretty confident about it.

To me, Snyder seems like the kind of guy who makes impulsive decisions, and once he's made those decisions there's not much that will change his mind. [B]The Bengal game probably did Zorn in[/B].[/quote]

I definitely don't think Zorn is gone.

Wash Post columnist Mike Wise goes as far as issuing a guarantee that Zorn's job is safe:

[I]There might be a few doomsayers who will point out [/I][URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Marty+Schottenheimer?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0c4790][I]Marty Schottenheimer[/I][/COLOR][/URL][I] was 8-8 in his one and only season before [/I][URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Daniel+Snyder?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0c4790][I]Daniel Snyder[/I][/COLOR][/URL][I] jettisoned the my-way-or-else coach; Zorn is more pliable and likable, much cheaper and -- this is a guarantee -- isn't going anywhere after this season.[/I]

Link to full article: [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/21/AR2008122102509.html]Mike Wise - Mea Culpa Complex - washingtonpost.com[/url]

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;514938]On Monday Night Countdown, Chris Mortensen just said Jim Zorn's job was safe. I don't know how solid that is, but Mort seemed pretty confident about it.

To me, Snyder seems like the kind of guy who makes impulsive decisions, and once he's made those decisions there's not much that will change his mind. The Bengal game probably did Zorn in.[/quote]

I told Mort to say that :) Seriously though, Zorn has probably increased his chances significantly the last two weeks of staying, mainly through his humility. And I certainly hope he stays.

Snyder is actually not at all impulsive, not anymore at least. He really deliberates

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;514945]I told Mort to say that :) Seriously though, Zorn has probably increased his chances significantly the last two weeks of staying, mainly through his humility. And I certainly hope he stays.

[B]Snyder is actually not at all impulsive, not anymore at least. He really deliberates[/B][/quote]

If true, that would certainly be a departure from his pattern. Not just as an owner, but successful businessmen as well. More often than not, big shot business owners don't spend a whole lot of time sucking their thumbs contemplating. He's a businessman first, and I still believe his nature is to use his instincts to make snap judgements at a quicker pace.

Making decisions about a football team is different of course. So if he's truly changed in that regard, we'll just have to see.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;514945]I told Mort to say that :) Seriously though, Zorn has probably increased his chances significantly the last two weeks of staying, mainly through his humility. And I certainly hope he stays.

[B]Snyder is actually not at all impulsive, not anymore at least. He really deliberates[/B][/quote]

As we saw with the coach search to replace Gibbs.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;514033]What's with the quotes around the word 'expert'? Clearly, the experts were right, and this joke of a front office has been wrong. And what makes you think the market of fans in Washington are the only ones who want instant success? Every market wants that. And with the way the NFL is structured, just about every team has that ability. Look at Atlanta and Miami. Those turnarounds are about as instantaneous as you can get.

It's absurd to say that fans of the Redskins are "hypercritical" or the most impatient when for 10 years we've suffered through F'ed up drafts, over-paid and overrated free agent disasters, draft picks tossed down the drain, the most expensive ticket prices in the league, the most expensive hot dogs and beers in the league, all to watch a team with a losing record ever since the franchise was taken over by complete buffoons. For TEN YEARS we've put up with this crap -- and some people have the audacity to say we're just not patient enough.

[B]The issue with Shottenheimer was that he wanted all the power. They parted ways.[/B]

False. According to the terms of the original contract, Schottenheimer [I]already had [/I]complete control. Then after the season finished, Snyder tried to weasel his way back [I]into[/I] control of personnel decisions and assistant coaching hires which was in total violation of that contract. Schottenheimer refused to relent, and Lil' Danny fired him.

[B]Lil' Danny's next act of wisdom was to bring in the flavor of the nanosecond -- Steve Spurrier, and as we all know, that set the franchise back even further.
[/B]
It's botch-job after botch-job with our dork of an owner. Looking back, Marty probably had things moving in the right direction better than any other coach. And that includes Joe Gibbs.[/quote]
Your criticism of Spurrier is valid if you are using hindsight, but how many fans were not thinking that that was a steal of a move. Now many more have college coaches have failed at the transition, but at the time alot of people thought it was a good move.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;514949]As we saw with the coach search to replace Gibbs.[/quote]

Everything changed after he spent five minutes to hire Spurrier and it completely blew up in his face. Ever since then he's been very deliberate and methodical with just about everything.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;514958]Your criticism of Spurrier is valid if you are using hindsight, but how many fans were not thinking that that was a steal of a move. Now many more have college coaches have failed at the transition, but at the time alot of people thought it was a good move.[/quote]

My criticism of the Spurrier Experiment had more to do with giving up so quickly on Marty Schottenheimer than anything else. That 8-3 stretch at the end of 2001 was probably the best football the Skins have played in years before or since. And Marty was doing it with the likes of Tony Banks and Kent Graham.

And it was the way Danny tried to go back against the terms of the original contract that really reflects his sleaziness.

So, do I blame Snyder for making a bad decision to hire Spurrier? Yes, I do. Was I supposed to know it wasn't going to work? No. I'm a fan. Snyder hired people around him to advise him in these matters, and with or without the benefit of hindsight, he cannot be absolved for taking a sledgehammer to the foundation that Marty had just begun.

Raider fans don't give Al Davis a pass because he can't see into the future. He deserves the whipping he gets because it's his job to see the trends, and to know which way the wind is blowing. Ditto for Danny. Nobody has a crystal ball. But the league has people who show a knack for making good decisions on a regular basis. Until there is some other method to determine whether people are successful or not, the only thing we have to go on are the results. By definition, that means using hindsight.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;514949]As we saw with the coach search to replace Gibbs.[/quote]

Point taken, and his rock-solid faith in Vinny Cerrato year after year further confirms that.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;514949]As we saw with the coach search to replace Gibbs.[/quote]

In which case he becomes reclassified as indecisive.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/22/AR2008122202172.html]Cerrato Says Zorn Will Return as Redskins Coach in 2009 - washingtonpost.com[/url]

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;514975]So, do I blame Snyder for making a bad decision to hire Spurrier? Yes, I do. Was I supposed to know it wasn't going to work? No. I'm a fan. Snyder hired people around him to advise him in these matters, and with or without the benefit of hindsight, he cannot be absolved for taking a sledgehammer to the foundation that Marty had just begun.
[/quote]
Pepper Rodgers was behind the Spurrier debacle....he's gone, can we get over it? You're bringing up bad repressed memories......my head hurts now.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;514987][URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/22/AR2008122202172.html"]Cerrato Says Zorn Will Return as Redskins Coach in 2009 - washingtonpost.com[/URL][/quote]
Very good article. Good news IMO (although I hope this isn't the dreaded "vote of confidence" that happens before many an axe has been dropped). Cerrato's take on things is spot-on. I wish the "Cerrato's an idiot" crowd would read this article objectively.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I think this says it all:

[QUOTE]Cerrato said he is confident Zorn, [B]whom he strongly recommended to team owner Daniel Snyder for the Redskins' head coaching vacancy last winter[/B], is "learning and he's improving. Just how rookie players learn and improve, same type of steps. He's making progress." [/QUOTE]

Zorn probably wasn't in any real danger, not as long as Vinny is around.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;514987][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/22/AR2008122202172.html]Cerrato Says Zorn Will Return as Redskins Coach in 2009 - washingtonpost.com[/url][/quote]

That's the right move

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;514996]I think this says it all:

Zorn probably wasn't in any real danger, not as long as Vinny is around.[/quote]

Yeah, the local sports media and some Redskins boards (not this site) hype up a story w/o any real evidence.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[url=http://dcprosportsreport.com/?p=2234]Zorn to Return in 2009, Unfortunately so is Cerrato | DC Pro Sports Report -- Sports news, stats and analysis from the capital of the free world[/url]

Here is our article and opinion. Jim Zorn is not the issue, the guy that made the statements IS the issue.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

As long as DS is the owner VC will be there because no decent GM or football man would want to put up with him.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;514992]Very good article. Good news IMO (although I hope this isn't the dreaded "vote of confidence" that happens before many an axe has been dropped). Cerrato's take on things is spot-on. I wish the "Cerrato's an idiot" crowd would read this article objectively.[/quote]

Before the Philly game, rumor had it Zorn was out. Vinnys "support" for Zorn was very weak and left many with the feeling that Zorn really was about to get fired.... so now let me get this straight:

-we beat Philly 10-3.
-We were inches away from a tied game going into overtime.
-Zorns playcalling was horrible.
-Campbell was throwing bad passes all day.
-Andy Reid foolishly abandoned the run early, keeping us in the game.
-The Philly receivers couldnt catch a cold and were dropping passes left and right, keeping us in the game.
-Our defense played an incredible game, holding one of the leagues most potent offenses to a mere field goal, keeping us in the game.
-Our offense had the ball in great field position half a dozen times and could only score 1 TD

... but we won, so NOW Zorns job is now safe? what the heck?!?

If THIS win tipped the scales in favor of Zorn, then Cerrato definitely needs to be fired. This offense, Zorns offense, is just as bad as it has been all year. While the league has adapted to Zorn, Zorn hasnt adapted to the league - This is why our offense has gotten WORSE as the season has progressed, not better. Cerrato said Zorn is learning? - where is the evidence of that. Zorn is a clown and needs to go. If we bring in a guy like Holmgren to continue the WCO here, then Campbell needs to go too. He is not a WCO QB and he never will be. he may not even be a QB qualified to start in the NFL.

The only reason I think Zorn will stay is becuase Cerrato and Zorn are tied at the hip. Before the season, Cerrato said he and Zorn had two years or they would BOTH be out of their jobs... the only bright side i can see to keeping Zorn is it means - when he fails next year, he -and most importantly, Cerrato- will both be gone forever.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

His job was allegedly precarious not for any of the on-field stuff, thought that still leaves a lot to be desired. The issue was more so how things were in the locker room, and they've supposedly improved. Obviously a win helps, but I'm just glad that the front office seems to be allowing the staff and players to work through things.

I still think Cerrato will be less involved this off-season and completely removed next off-season, but i don't think he'll be fired from the organization.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;514992]Very good article. Good news IMO (although I hope this isn't the dreaded "vote of confidence" that happens before many an axe has been dropped). Cerrato's take on things is spot-on. I wish the "Cerrato's an idiot" crowd would read this article objectively.[/quote]

I agree Sammy. Good article. Let's see how things are handled this year as far as addressing our needs. I still think our draft could turn out to be very good.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;515057]
This offense, Zorns offense, is just as bad as it has been all year. While the league has adapted to Zorn, Zorn hasnt adapted to the league - This is why our offense has gotten WORSE as the season has progressed, not better. Cerrato said Zorn is learning? - where is the evidence of that. Zorn is a clown and needs to go. If we bring in a guy like Holmgren to continue the WCO here, then Campbell needs to go too. He is not a WCO QB and he never will be. he may not even be a QB qualified to start in the NFL.
[/quote]
It's interesting that when you look at Jason Campbell's QB rating numbers it confirms what can be seen about the offense....against good defenses the OL is overmatched. JC has played well this year, he's made a lot of plays either by a quick release or movement in (or out of) the pocket that could've ended in disaster. His turn-overs are down and overall his QB rating is up, despite the OL being in much worse shape than last year. Is he an elite QB, not yet, just as Cerrato mentioned. But it's pretty damn hard to be an effective QB behind and OL that is struggling. Didn't Peyton Manning have troubles early in the year while his OL was battling to overcome injuries and get in a good groove.

I'm so tired of the catch-phrases that get thrown out on the Skins post-game and here as well: "Zorn hasn't adapted", "Zorn's playcalling is terrible"....you try to call an offense at any level with a struggling OL, it's no fun. Has Zorn been perfect, No, but he hasn't been "terrible". On a A-E scale his playcalling has been in the B-C range.

Let's look at reality here, we'll finish either 8-8 or 9-7. A Pete Kendell fumble and a poor first half against CIN don't happen and we're 10-6 or 11-5. This is with a new HC, an unproven young QB, a defense with no real playmakers in the front 7, and a secondary that was questionable in the pre-season.

I'd say the coaching staff and players have probably overachieved this year. We need changes made in both the coaching staff and with player personnel to get better, but firing Cerrato and/or Zorn would be a ridiculously bad move this off-season.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;515069]It's interesting that when you look at Jason Campbell's QB rating numbers it confirms what can be seen about the offense....against good defenses the OL is overmatched. JC has played well this year, he's made a lot of plays either by a quick release or movement in (or out of) the pocket that could've ended in disaster. His turn-overs are down and overall his QB rating is up, despite the OL being in much worse shape than last year. Is he an elite QB, not yet, just as Cerrato mentioned. But it's pretty damn hard to be an effective QB behind and OL that is struggling. Didn't Peyton Manning have troubles early in the year while his OL was battling to overcome injuries and get in a good groove.

I'm so tired of the catch-phrases that get thrown out on the Skins post-game and here as well: "Zorn hasn't adapted", "Zorn's playcalling is terrible"....you try to call an offense at any level with a struggling OL, it's no fun. Has Zorn been perfect, No, but he hasn't been "terrible". On a A-E scale his playcalling has been in the B-C range.

Let's look at reality here, we'll finish either 8-8 or 9-7. A Pete Kendell fumble and a poor first half against CIN don't happen and we're 10-6 or 11-5. This is with a new HC, an unproven young QB, a defense with no real playmakers in the front 7, and a secondary that was questionable in the pre-season.

I'd say the coaching staff and players have probably overachieved this year. We need changes made in both the coaching staff and with player personnel to get better, but firing Cerrato and/or Zorn would be a ridiculously bad move this off-season.[/quote]

I agree with everything you said except for JC becomming an effective QB. He's just not an accurate enough passer and needs his receivers to be really open (2+ steps) when he does hit them for him to ever be a truely effective QB.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=irish;515075]I agree with everything you said except for JC becomming an effective QB. He's just not an accurate enough passer and needs his receivers to be really open (2+ steps) when he does hit them for him to ever be a truely effective QB.[/quote]
if he could learn the sneak the ball in where it needs to be a few times a game we'd be champs

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Cerrato said he is confident Zorn, whom he strongly recommended to team owner Daniel Snyder for the Redskins' head coaching vacancy last winter, is "learning and he's improving. Just how rookie players learn and improve, same type of steps. He's making progress."

On the job training for our head coach, this is a first. A head coaching internship in the NFL. So how many years is he away? 1, 2, 3? Can we send Zorn to night school at the local community college, is NFL head coach part of the curriculum? I've never been anti Cerrato and I think Daniel Snyder is the best owner in football. But if Zorn is not ready to be the head coach of the Redskins then it was a bad hire.

The only progress I want to hear of is that of Phillip Daniels and other players on IR. How's Malcolm Kelly's knee, is it progressing?

My post here is not about retaining nor firing Jim Zorn. I'd like to see the Redskins hire the best possible players and coaches in order to win. For example; our first draft choice in the upcoming draft must be a starter! What we got form Devin Thomas this year set the franchise back, and I don't blame him for that I blame Zorn and his rookie hazing. I think Thomas has a lot of fire and talent and wasn't a bad pick.

We're brining Zorn back, ok fine by me. I just hope his on the job training is complete.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=irish;515075]I agree with everything you said except for JC becomming an effective QB. He's just not an accurate enough passer and needs his receivers to be really open (2+ steps) when he does hit them for him to ever be a truely effective QB.[/quote]You have pretty high standards for quarterbacking then. You're not wrong, but the Redskins are never going to develop a QB who you think is worthy if you want a guy who can avoid interceptions AND throw completions into tight spaces.

There are a few guys who can do what you suggest, but there are 100 million dollar QBs who can't do what you are suggesting. Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, even Favre really don't fall into this category. That category is pretty much Manning, Brady, Rivers. And while Campbell will never be one of those guys, a half decent roster will win a lot of games with Jason Campbell.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;515197]You have pretty high standards for quarterbacking then. You're not wrong, but the Redskins are never going to develop a QB who you think is worthy if you want a guy who can avoid interceptions AND throw completions into tight spaces.

There are a few guys who can do what you suggest, but there are 100 million dollar QBs who can't do what you are suggesting. Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, even Favre really don't fall into this category. That category is pretty much Manning, Brady, Rivers. And while Campbell will never be one of those guys, a half decent roster will win a lot of games with Jason Campbell.[/quote]

Very well said. I think a lot of people who criticize JC forget how difficult it is to even find 32 people in the entire world who can even play the position, let alone play it well. In any given season at most 20 guys will play like legitimate NFL starters. At least 12 teams will be grasping at straws with bums. If you have one of these upper tier guys, and we do, you should count yourself lucky.

Moreover, when you factor in the years of development, draft resources, and money required in grooming a new starter, as well as the uncertain odds that they will even develop into a decent player, it's hard to argue against what we have. Ryan and Flacco seem to have clouded most people's memory of the recent past, in which most QB's, even those drafted in the first round, flop and flop hard.

So in fantasy NFL land I'd take Manning or Matt Ryan over JC. Back in the real world I think we have much more pressing needs on this team to address.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

You have to give Zorn at least 4 years

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Unless Zorny changes up his playbook his coming back isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. Zorn is not the problem, it is the antiquated WCO. I just don't see the WCO being a viable offense since everyone and his cousin ran it back in the 80s-90s. Everyone knows how to effectively counter it.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;515210]Unless Zorny changes up his playbook his coming back isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. Zorn is not the problem, it is the antiquated WCO. I just don't see the WCO being a viable offense since everyone and his cousin ran it back in the 80s-90s. Everyone knows how to effectively counter it.[/quote]

So what about the Eagles? Or the Seahawks? Or the Packers? Or the Bucs? There are plenty of teams still running it and having success.

First off Zorn isn't running a pure WCO, in fact I'm not even sure that exists anymore. His system is based on what Holmgren runs in Seattle with plenty of his own philosophies sprinkled in.

It's pretty naive to think the principles of the WCO are outdated.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I think the question is, do we have the personnel best suited for Zorn's offense? When they were 6-2 the running game was so good that defeciences in the passing game were overlooked. Then O-linemen started getting hurt, and defenses just loaded up the box to key in on Portis.

What's troubling is that Campbell can't really seem to hit certain passes with enough regularity -- the slants, and medium to long passes in the middle of the field just over the LB's. Then there's the matter of how good the receivers are to throw to.

There are still big, big question marks with this offense.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;515217]So what about the Eagles? Or the Seahawks? Or the Packers? Or the Bucs? There are plenty of teams still running it and having success.

First off Zorn isn't running a pure WCO, in fact I'm not even sure that exists anymore. His system is based on what Holmgren runs in Seattle with plenty of his own philosophies sprinkled in.

It's pretty naive to think the principles of the WCO are outdated.[/quote]

I have been down on JC for the last half of the season thinking that he just isn't the right QB for this system. the teams you mentioned all run a version of the WCO and the head coaches are all from the Walsh coaching tree. Every one of these teams and there QBs took a couple of years to get the WCO to perform with success. Hasselback was horrible when he took over as the starting QB for Seattle as well as McNabb. Zorn Knows this system in and out, he just has to get JC and the rest of the offense going in the same direction. I think you will see a vast improvement next season with the WCO here.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;515197]You have pretty high standards for quarterbacking then. You're not wrong, but the Redskins are never going to develop a QB who you think is worthy if you want a guy who can avoid interceptions AND throw completions into tight spaces.

There are a few guys who can do what you suggest, but there are 100 million dollar QBs who can't do what you are suggesting. Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, even Favre really don't fall into this category. That category is pretty much Manning, Brady, Rivers. And while Campbell will never be one of those guys, a half decent roster will win a lot of games with Jason Campbell.[/quote]

If JC ever became Rothlisberger or Favre the Skins would be incredibly lucky. Heck JC isnt even as good at Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco and they really are rookies. I'm not saying a QB cant make mistakes but JC misses wide open receivers (even Sonny was commenting on that during the Cinn game) that kill drives so forget him threading the needle for a big game changing play.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;515257][B]I think the question is, do we have the personnel best suited for Zorn's offense?[/B] When they were 6-2 the running game was so good that defeciences in the passing game were overlooked. Then O-linemen started getting hurt, and defenses just loaded up the box to key in on Portis.

What's troubling is that Campbell can't really seem to hit certain passes with enough regularity -- the slants, and medium to long passes in the middle of the field just over the LB's. Then there's the matter of how good the receivers are to throw to.

There are still big, big question marks with this offense.[/quote]

With just one offseason under his belt I think it's fair to say he doesn't have all of his guys yet.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SouperMeister;511782]As pissed as I am at Zorn and his absolute inability to ever question his own decisions, getting rid of him would be a disaster for Jason Campbell. Starting over with yet another new offense is not the answer. Address our needs on both lines and you'll see significant improvement for both the O and the D.[/quote]

thats where we need the most help is in the trenches on both sides of the ball. the part i,m really going to keep a close eye on is how patient will synder be...i,m hoping he is real patient and lets this process take it,s course .like most on here i would like to see improvements in personnel in our front office as well...