Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

I think Shanahan is giving DM the Haynesworth treatment. A little public kick in the pants to get him going.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=skinsnut;755255]I guess the "blind faith" Shanny can do no wrong love goggles are finally coming off for some of you guys...thank goodness.
We can finally see things more objectively....

Perhaps....perhaps....Haynesworth isn't the antichrist we thought he was....and Devin Thomas and Dockery? maybe...."possibly" Shanny "maybe" could have made a mistake there too?

Let's not always drink the kool-aid when we get a new coach guys.
And Bruce Allen aint God either....he is a GM...an average one...yes better than pure crap...but an average one.

You can generally believe patterns of people to continue.
Shanny to be an ego-maniac, Hasslet to produce 20th ranked defenses, Allen to be average, McNabb to be hot and cold and have occassional irratic accuracy.
So Shanny won 2 SB's....remember they fired the guy too...and there just as much reason for that as there was for Philly trading us McNabb.
[B]
I don't know of another SB winning coach that was ever fired...these current actions certainly are consistant with his past M.O.[/B]

Don't get me wrong...I still think he is rock solid...he can just be a jerk sometimes and who wants a boss who is a jerk?[/quote]

Here are some Superbowl winning coaches that have been fired:

Tom Landry
Bill Callahan
Jon Gruden
Brian Billick
Mike Ditka

The fact that Shanahan was fired from Denver means nothing about his coaching abilities.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

Callahan didn't win one, he got hammered by Gruden

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Ruhskins;755279][IMG]http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/spurrierpresserfinal.jpg[/IMG]
"[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/08/post_14.html"]We wound up 5-11!!![/URL]"[/quote]

Ugh, reading that transcript gave me a headache

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Mattyk;755281]I think Shanahan is giving DM the Haynesworth treatment. A little public kick in the pants to get him going.[/quote]

If that is the case, he is on a slippery slope. McNabb has been taking beatings over and over again due to poor line play with no complaints.

The players will agree on some level with chastising someone who skipped out on OTAs. McNabb attended everything and even put in overtime with his teammates.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the team isn't happy with the move. When all of the players that I heard (Cooley, Haynesworth Daniels) point out that they thought McNabb must have been hurt, it says that they are baffled with the move.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;755276]Well then NFL.com and Yahoo sports are a bunch of liars. My question to you was why didn't Shanny just say he thought a spark was needed and defuse the situation. The whole thing is dumb. He had every right to pull him, but these excuses make it look bad. The last thing we need is controversy, when the staff needs to right what is wrong with the offense.[/quote]

Look, Shanahan can say this:

"I'm not happy where we're at offensively," Shanahan said. "I told Donovan, 'You've got a ways to go.' Our offensive line has a ways to go, our receivers, our coaching staff, we're not happy where we're at."

Doesn't sound like excuses to me. But, the media is not satisfied with that answer, so they dig deeper, and Shanahan makes up a lame excuse to get them to shut up. The excuse is a lie, and not the truth, from Shanahan's perspective, IMO. Don't focus on the lies so much.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Mattyk;755285]Callahan didn't win one, he got hammered by Gruden[/quote]

Haha, oops.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;755289]Look, Shanahan can say this:

"I'm not happy where we're at offensively," Shanahan said. "I told Donovan, 'You've got a ways to go.' Our offensive line has a ways to go, our receivers, our coaching staff, we're not happy where we're at."

Doesn't sound like excuses to me. But, the media is not satisfied with that answer, so they dig deeper, and [B]Shanahan makes up a lame excuse to get them to shut up. The excuse is a lie, and not the truth, from Shanahan's perspective, IMO.[/B] Don't focus on the lies so much.[/quote]
This is kind of my thought as well. I also think that MS rolled the dice in the heat of the moment and tried to spark something and it backfired. Unless McNabb was hurt, I don't and did'nt like the call at the time simply because it was Grossman that got the call, but I recognize the ballsy move and respect Shanny's guts to pull the trigger.
I also feel the need to point out the horrible o-line play. All the sacks and hurries on McNabb were devastating, culminating in the final 2 turnovers. The o-lines failures added up in the end to McNabb's poor decision to throw the pick into triple coverage, ahead by 5 with under 5 mins left, because a: being hit and hurried all day rattled DMc's confidence and poise, and b: under the situation, pocket protection was nil, and DMc tried to force the ball under fire.
Rabach and Lichtensteiger were owned all day for false starts and overwhelmed physically. The play call by Shanahan was knee jerk and premature imo, unless there was indeed a DMc injury, but I get it. I PUT THIS ONE ON THE O-LINE.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

People can criticize Shanny all they want on the move to pull Mcnabb,but love it...
It shows that the coach DEMANDS perfection and doesn't settle for 1/2 ass play.

How many times were we screaming at the TV last season and the season before,for Zorn to sit J.Campbell down and try something different as he was stinkin' up the field...yet Soul Glo came a trottin' out on the field no matter what and we saw the same damn thing.

i admire a coach to go against the grain from time to time. To stir things up...to motivate the team...to try something different in time of need.

And boy..we needed it against the Lions game. Unfortunately,grossman made Shanny out to be a fool for the decision because of the fumble..

People are all freakin' out and saying mcnabb is gone after this season....Rexy is starting and all kinds of crazy stuff.

These are the kind of moves and decisions and accountability we have needed from a coach to demand on his players for a very,VERY long time.

Gibbs 2.0 didn't even have this hold on the team imo...He had the respect from the players..but not this kind of demands of accountability from poor play from the players.

AND I LOVE IT!
This his how championships are built friends!

Now,he needs to get what this team desperately needs imo...A #1 WR

I expect Shanny to put in a claim on randy Moss. For a few reasons...
#1)After benching mcNabb,maybe he will realize that it's not all Mcnabbs fault. maybe,he will realize that Galloway or Armstrong at the #2 spot is not going to work,if we are to make a playoff run.

#2)Shanny loves to run the ball and with a healthy Portis coming back,a hot Torain and depth with Williams and new guy Davis...that a #1 WR like Moss,will open up his running game a little more and back off defenses who [B]STILL[/B] do not respect our passing game. Specially,if the team has to continue keeping Cooley in to block cause our line sucks.

#3)Shanny may need to seriously make ammends with his QB,if he wants to keep him around. This could go along ways in re-signing mcnabb,by getting him a true talent at WR that Andy Reid and the Eagles refused to do throughout his whole tenure.

Fact is..Shanny is not happy with this Offense and there is only so much change you can do in week 8.
Moss may or may not be his type a player or locker room guy...but if he wants a chance to take the NFC east from a powerful Giants,he may have no other alternative,but take this High risk/High reward in accomplishing something in 2010.

He also has a BYE week to implement Moss into the offense,which could be a blessing and shot in the arm this offense needs,to make a push for post season.

and BTW..Moss is from WV from what i understand. So moss would be close to home. I don't think Moss would be a problem here imo...Plus he would be close to his buddies in New England and could visit them as often as he wants..lol

If he's available Shanny...you got to claim him!

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

Tim Hasselbeck on Mike and Mike: Paraphrasing but basically sais Mike's not happy w/ DM's practice habits. MS used the word practice often in explaining why DM was pulled. Tim recalled playing in Phili in a West Coast Offense, the coaches were constantly on DM for his "tempo." They would have to tell him daily to pick it up. Pick up the tempo and that's what the West Coast is all about. He said MS is definately sending a message about practice and the tempo of the West Coast.

Then they all agreed that the message shouldn't have been sent when we have a chance to win a game in the final two minutes.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

Wouldn't it have been something if Grossman came in and tore it up, then maybe we would have had a controversy.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=redsk1;755327]Tim Hasselbeck on Mike and Mike: Paraphrasing but basically sais Mike's not happy w/ DM's practice habits. MS used the word practice often in explaining why DM was pulled. Tim recalled playing in Phili in a West Coast Offense, the coaches were constantly on DM for his "tempo." They would have to tell him daily to pick it up. Pick up the tempo and that's what the West Coast is all about. He said MS is definately sending a message about practice and the tempo of the West Coast.

Then they all agreed that the message shouldn't have been sent when we have a chance to win a game in the final two minutes.[/quote]

I was watching an Andy Reid mic'd up type of show recently on NFL Network, and funny enough they showed a clip in DM's rookie year and Reid was having a talk with him about picking up the tempo and energy level in practice.

Yeah I agree, probably not the best time to send that message though.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;755249]They were beasts in Madden '95. :D[/quote]

hahaha! i use to play the skins that year too. jamie asher was ridiculous! but no one could touch walter payton on 95 madden, no one.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Mattyk;755330]I was watching an Andy Reid mic'd up type of show recently on NFL Network, and funny enough they showed a clip in DM's rookie year and Reid was having a talk with him about picking up the tempo and energy level in practice.

Yeah I agree, probably not the best time to send that message though.[/quote]

I saw that too. But he was a rookie then. You'd think he'd wouldn't have those same habits in his 11th year.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

Like it was said earlier, MS is not the best w/ words, but I think we can safely say that MS isn't too happy w/ our offense and our QB's grasp of the West Coast Offense. He felt Rex gave us a better chance to win the game (his opinion). Message sent.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

A pretty rational take on things from Sally Jenkins

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/01/AR2010110106395.html]Sally Jenkins - Benching may help Redskins quarterback Donovan McNabb[/url]

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=takethecake;754360]@SportsFanatic and Hail2theSkins

You are absolutely wrong. McNabb is not the reason we lost this game. Even the announcers said it at the end; you could have any quarterback in the league back there and they would have done zilch behind our oline. They got absolutely manhandled today.

This just pains me because this is the exact same thing people said about campbell when he was here. Obviously he wasn't the greatest quarterback, but every single loss he took the blame, even when the offensive line was essentially standing aside and giving the defense free shots on him. There is no way to win with an offensive line playing like they did today, and further cements the case that we have to build our line with our #1 draft pick next april.[/quote]

Yep exactly. The Oline is still a huge problem. Jamaal Brown is not even close to the player he used to be, and other than Trent you can send them all packing. We need a quality interior. C and 2 guards.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

ahhh.... man the Halloween Avatars are gone!

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

just hear mort on mike and mike and he threw out a stat about last minute drives to win games, dmac has 24 the same number as brady, only three other qb's have more.

he also said that since dmac has been here the shannys haven't liked his practice work and that they thought about benching him for grossman after the philly game. he said it stayed in house until now, interesting to say the least

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/donovan-mcnabb/report-shanahan-unhappy-with-m.html]Redskins Insider - Report: Shanahan unhappy with McNabb practice habits[/url]

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/02/tim-hasselbeck-says-mcnabbs-bad-practice-habits-go-way-back/]Tim Hasselbeck says McNabb's bad practice habits go way back | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

[url=http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/39958647/ns/sports-player_news/]Skins previously considered benching McNabb - NFL- nbcsports.msnbc.com[/url]

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

I have no problem with that.
Is it not amazing the difference in Shanny coverage and JZ coverage with Sally?
I wonder if she ghost writes a sports column for the Sun so Zorn doesn't get......lonely?

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

This thread is all about how bad McNabb is or has been playing, but honestly folks, Football is all about big guys up front pushing each other around so that other big guys behind them can make plays. Our big guys up front are not very good at pushing the other team around, so the guys behind them can't make plays. Gibbs won Superbowls with "GREAT" big guys pushing the other team around, while journeyman guys behind them made plays. Rypien? Doug Williams? Thiesman? Non-HOF Qbs who won Superbowls because of great offensive lines. Until this problem is resolved, the rest of these discussions are just the drama that make headlines and newspapers. Like I said in this thread earlier, Joe Montana couldn't make plays with this Skins OL.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

I personally think it's hilarious that the Redskins new Health and Wellness ambassador isn't in the "cardiovascular shape" to run a two minute drill. During the same game where he's our leading rusher...

Or wait, it's because of the verbiage of the two minute drill and Grossman's experience....

Shanahan totally shit the bed on this. If benching McNabb was a good decision, MS totally screwed up his "explanations" for doing so. I gotta think McNabb is fuming mad, regardless of how classy he's handling it publicly. All these variations on the rationale behind the benching are making Shanahan look like a giant dope.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=skinsfan69;755332]hahaha! i use to play the skins that year too. jamie asher was ridiculous! but no one could touch walter payton on 95 madden, no one.[/quote]

Sweep right, sweep left. Repeat as necessary.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

Man this thread is decaying fast. You guys are really starting to freak out.... Our QB got sat down. thats all we [U]really[/U] know.

If I had to guess what DS said to MS in their initial interview, I bet it went something like this: (This team and system is out of control and has been for years, I pay big $$$$ to guys that just come in here and then do nothing more than cash the check. I need a coach who can take total control of this team and get these guys playing winning football.) Thats why we seen the cuts like DT and the benching of guys like AH and DM.

He's doing his job. It's his team, it's his way, or your out. Don't matter who you are. Guarantee Portis would have been on the bench by now if he was not hurt. Especially after taking that fake fall.

Thats what Shanny is doing plain and simple! If we win our next game, all this talk all goes away.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=GMScud;755358] I gotta think McNabb is fuming mad, regardless of how classy he's handling it publicly. All these variations on the rationale behind the benching are making Shanahan look like a giant dope.[/quote]

If McNabb is fuming mad, he should do something about it and play a good game for once. His only game this year with a QB rating over 100 was the Texans game. Its very depressing as a Skins fan to watch Peyton Manning take another nobody in Jacob Tamme TE, who is now filling in for Dallas Clark, and watch his stat line from last night be 6-64 1TD. "The Skins don't have any receivers!" Neither do the Colts, but they find a way to get it done.

Any of you watching the Greatest 100 NFL players that has been coming on Thursday nights? The top ten is this week and Peyton is one of them. Man, he deserves it. He makes his whole team so mich better.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=scowan;755363]If McNabb is fuming mad, he should do something about it and play a good game for once. His only game this year with a QB rating over 100 was the Texans game. Its very depressing as a Skins fan to watch Peyton Manning take another nobody in Jacob Tamme TE, who is now filling in for Dallas Clark, and watch his stat line from last night be 6-64 1TD. "The Skins don't have any receivers!" Neither do the Colts, but they find a way to get it done.

Any of you watching the Greatest 100 NFL players that has been coming on Thursday nights? The top ten is this week and Peyton is one of them. Man, he deserves it. He makes his whole team so mich better.[/quote]

Totally agree. I've got no problem if he's upset over getting yanked, but the anger over that should quickly turn to some serious self evaluation.

McNabb can turn this all around very easily by buying in to what the coaches want from him and working his tail off. I expect that he will.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Mattyk;755367]Totally agree. I've got no problem if he's upset over getting yanked, but the anger over that should quickly turn to some serious self evaluation.

McNabb can turn this all around very easily by buying in to what the coaches want from him and working his tail off. I expect that he will.[/quote]

I also expect he will. McNabb is a relatively submissive guy, IMO. He has a ton of heart and pride, so I expect him to take it seriously.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

Honestly, McNabb the person is a little sensative and gets his feelings hurt easily.

He was very sulky in 2006 when Jeff Garcia started winning and people were forgetting about him, even more so when that offseason (07) some fans were clamoring for Garcia to start over McNabb...

In 2008, he also had a small tantrum when he was benched for Kolb after 2 miserable games.

After having this now again, he could go into his shell even more, and make the situation worse.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;755375]Honestly, McNabb the person is a little sensative and gets his feelings hurt easily.

He was very sulky in 2006 when Jeff Garcia started winning and people were forgetting about him, even more so when that offseason (07) some fans were clamoring for Garcia to start over McNabb...

In 2008, he also had a small tantrum when he was benched for Kolb after 2 miserable games.

After having this now again, he could go into his shell even more, and make the situation worse.[/quote]

He always responded well in the following games though.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

After getting benched against Baltimore in 2008, he came out and threw 4 TDs against Arizona, and won 4 of his last 5 games throwing 9 TDs and 1 INT.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Mattyk;755383]After getting benched against Baltimore in 2008, he came out and threw 4 TDs against Arizona, and won 4 of his last 5 games throwing 9 TDs and 1 INT.[/quote]

5 will bounce back, 2 weeks to get everyone healthy and maybe Randy Moss.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=scowan;755363]If McNabb is fuming mad, he should do something about it and play a good game for once. His only game this year with a QB rating over 100 was the Texans game. Its very depressing as a Skins fan to watch Peyton Manning take another nobody in Jacob Tamme TE, who is now filling in for Dallas Clark, and watch his stat line from last night be 6-64 1TD. "The Skins don't have any receivers!" Neither do the Colts, but they find a way to get it done.

Any of you watching the Greatest 100 NFL players that has been coming on Thursday nights? The top ten is this week and Peyton is one of them. Man, he deserves it. He makes his whole team so mich better.[/quote]

Picked up Tamme as soon as Clark got hurt :-)....but you're talking about Peyton Manning, the ultimate professional. The guy is obessed with his craft and it shows. You would never hear of Manning having bad practice habits. Maybe one day we can get lucky and draft a true franchise QB where he makes the players around him better. Sam Bradford sure looks like the next true great one. Can anyone name any of the wr's that he's throwing to?

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Mattyk;755383]After getting benched against Baltimore in 2008, he came out and threw 4 TDs against Arizona, and won 4 of his last 5 games throwing 9 TDs and 1 INT.[/quote]

Yeah he sure came back and lit it up. But it seems like this time around the injuries are really starting to bother his performance.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/20843/mike-shanahans-misdirection-play]Mike Shanahan's misdirection play - NFC East Blog - ESPN[/url]

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/donovan-mcnabb/donovan-mcnabb-talks-about-ben.html#more]Redskins Insider - Donovan McNabb says he could have finished game in Detroit[/url]

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=skinsfan69;755388]Picked up Tamme as soon as Clark got hurt :-)....but you're talking about Peyton Manning, the ultimate professional. The guy is obessed with his craft and it shows. You would never hear of Manning having bad practice habits. Maybe one day we can get lucky and draft a true franchise QB where he makes the players around him better. Sam Bradford sure looks like the next true great one. Can anyone name any of the wr's that he's throwing to?[/quote]

Skinsfan, I had Dallas Clark on my fantasy team as well and picked up Tamme and actually started him last night. Yahoo projected 2.something for him this week and I got 12.4. Sweet!

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=skinsnut;755255]I guess the "blind faith" Shanny can do no wrong love goggles are finally coming off for some of you guys...thank goodness.
We can finally see things more objectively....

Perhaps....perhaps....Haynesworth isn't the antichrist we thought he was....and Devin Thomas and Dockery? maybe...."possibly" Shanny "maybe" could have made a mistake there too?

Let's not always drink the kool-aid when we get a new coach guys.
And Bruce Allen aint God either....he is a GM...an average one...yes better than pure crap...but an average one.

You can generally believe patterns of people to continue.
Shanny to be an ego-maniac, Hasslet to produce 20th ranked defenses, Allen to be average, McNabb to be hot and cold and have occassional irratic accuracy.
So Shanny won 2 SB's....remember they fired the guy too...and there just as much reason for that as there was for Philly trading us McNabb.

I don't know of another SB winning coach that was ever fired...these current actions certainly are consistant with his past M.O.

Don't get me wrong...I still think he is rock solid...he can just be a jerk sometimes and who wants a boss who is a jerk?[/quote]

Some noteworthy observations you make. The current is the 4th incoming HC I've taken the leisure to discuss on this forum since becoming a member. Spurrier, Gibbs, Zorn and now Shanahan. Upon their entrance they were all anointed and ordained by many with the prospect of making life better for the Redskin faithful. [The old stand-by] Joe Gibbs came closest to delivering on any of the hopeful expectations.

What's most interesting is when you go back and view the comments made when they entered as opposed to the one's made when they exited. I really don't expect this HC to be any different.

I don't recall under what terms Brian Billick left Baltimore or Tom Flores left Oakland but you're right in stating SB coaches don't get fired, they usually leave of their own volition.

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=Longtimefan;755414]Some noteworthy observations you make. The current is the 4th incoming HC I've taken the leisure to discuss on this forum since becoming a member. Spurrier, Gibbs, Zorn and now Shanahan. Upon their entrance they were all anointed and ordained by many with the prospect of making life better for the Redskin faithful. [The old stand-by] Joe Gibbs came closest to delivering on any of the hopeful expectations.

What's most interesting is when you go back and view the comments made when they entered as opposed to the one's made when they exited. I really don't expect this HC to be any different.

I don't recall under what terms Brian Billick left Baltimore or Tom Flores left Oakland but you're right in stating SB coaches don't get fired, they usually leave of their own volition.[/quote]

We've already covered this but here are just a few off the top of my head

Gruden - fired
Billick - fired
Ditka - fired
Seifert - fired
Landry - fired

Re: Mcnabb appears to be done and he is the reason for this loss
 

[quote=skinsnut;755255]I guess the "blind faith" Shanny can do no wrong love goggles are finally coming off for some of you guys...thank goodness.
We can finally see things more objectively....

Perhaps....perhaps....Haynesworth isn't the antichrist we thought he was....and Devin Thomas and Dockery? maybe...."possibly" Shanny "maybe" could have made a mistake there too?
...[/quote]

Seems to me you pick odd examples here. AH is playing very good and seems to be on board with the team going into the second half. That's at least as good, or maybe better than at this time last year when he was starting to hit the ground consistently, and miss several games. Devin Thomas, you mean the guy that didn't even travel with the Panthers to St. Louis? Dockery is the only one that is a bit of a head scratcher, but he wasn't stopping Suh on Sunday either.

Shanny certainly is arrogant, and he makes mistakes, but he generally produces competitive teams, and understands football, and especially the offensive side, of this football team.

As for the benching, Reid has done it in the past, with good results. I was shocked, and thought it was a mistake, but I accept that Shanahan knows what works with McNabb better than I ever could.