Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;997746]No way.
We could have had Dunta Robinson or kept Hall and then our pick of a FA safety or two.[/quote]

Eric Winston.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=NC_Skins;997658]Just point of note, according to HTTR/24-7 (LL), it was Jeffrey Lurie that started this whole ordeal and not Mara. Mara just happens to be the head of that committee. I'm sure he relished punishing his division rivals though, knowing it would strap them. They are going to hate it if they ever need to support of Danny boy.[/quote]

Well, then Lurie can go straight to hell too!

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

At some point Mara and Lurie will need Dan's support on something...I doubt they'll enjoy his response.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Evilgrin;997735]I'm glad we dont have the money then.[/quote]
Seriously. I guarantee in a couple years, we're going to look back on this cap penalty and realize that it probably helped us by saving us from ourselves. This needs to be a building phase for our team where we collect as much young talent as possible so we are better off in the future. This cap penalty is forcing us to make the absolute most out of our draft picks and allow these guys to play and develop.

If we didn't have the cap penalty, we'd just be overspending on free agents that are going to be 30 years old soon in order to maybe get a few more short-term wins. This strategy does not work in the long term, as I hope you guys have figured out these last 13 years under Dan Snyder. If that hasn't taught you how to not build a team, I don't know what will. Our team is more than 1 or 2 players away from a Super Bowl. We need to keep having good picks and developing young guys. Then maybe you can sign a couple big name free agents when you have a team that is ready to go to a Super Bowl and just needs a little extra push.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=FRPLG;997836]At some point Mara and Lurie will need Dan's support on something...I doubt they'll enjoy his response.[/quote]

Something like in the line of go **** yourselfs!! Assholes!!

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=steveo395;997939]Seriously. I guarantee in a couple years, we're going to look back on this cap penalty and realize that it probably helped us by saving us from ourselves. This needs to be a building phase for our team where we collect as much young talent as possible so we are better off in the future. This cap penalty is forcing us to make the absolute most out of our draft picks and allow these guys to play and develop.

If we didn't have the cap penalty, we'd just be overspending on free agents that are going to be 30 years old soon in order to maybe get a few more short-term wins. This strategy does not work in the long term, as I hope you guys have figured out these last 13 years under Dan Snyder. If that hasn't taught you how to not build a team, I don't know what will. Our team is more than 1 or 2 players away from a Super Bowl. We need to keep having good picks and developing young guys. Then maybe you can sign a couple big name free agents when you have a team that is ready to go to a Super Bowl and just needs a little extra push.[/quote]

Build off draft picks, find a gem in free agency or through trades every once a while, and every 5 years you can get a big name that you believe is the sole missing piece, but not the building block.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Evilgrin;997735]I'm glad we dont have the money then.[/quote]

With the way this regime adds FA who have an impact this should bother you. We could use Cox and Smith. Eric Winston as some else said not to mention a real set of NFL Ss.

Yea we won the division this last year but what if we would have won a playoff game or two. Or had a better chance of being even better this year. Or not losing a guy like Zo and Davis, I know we haven't yet but the writing is on the wall with these guys.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

So what do you guys think players like Cofield, Wilson, Bowen, Garcon, and Carricker are? I would say they are building blocks and foundations of the team.

Yea we need to draft quality player but when was having to many good players a problem?

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;997947]With the way this regime adds FA who have an impact this should bother you. We could use Cox and Smith. Eric Winston as some else said not to mention a real set of NFL Ss.

Yea we won the division this last year but what if we would have won a playoff game or two. Or had a better chance of being even better this year. Or not losing a guy like Zo and Davis, I know we haven't yet but the writing is on the wall with these guys.[/quote]

Its my opinion that you improve your team through the draft. That would be way too many free agent signings. Biggest winners in March end up being losers in December more often than not. Watch what happens with Miami.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I think you are misunderstanding me, I agree that teams build through the draft but it doesn't hurt to add a few playmakers or keep your own guys.

This penalty sux no matter how you look at it.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;997952]I think you are misunderstanding me, I agree that teams build through the draft but it doesn't hurt to add a few playmakers or keep your own guys.

This penalty sux no matter how you look at it.[/quote]

I agree it hurts not to be able to keep your own guys, but adding three names in free agency in one year usually does not work for that team. But it hurts the skins in terms of who they can find as 2nd tier guys, because usually those are the guys that end up being good players and depth for teams.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Completely agree on the second tier guys and when you look at the names I gave as examples that is exactly who I am talking about.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;997969]Completely agree on the second tier guys and when you look at the names I gave as examples that is exactly who I am talking about.[/quote]

Winston and Smith aren't really second tier guys in my opinion but Cox is. If we are talking about them in February, it probably means teams have noticed them a while back. I understand your premise now, I just wanted to make sure you weren't a "sign Haynesworth and build around him" guy.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;997949]So what do you guys think players like Cofield, Wilson, Bowen, Garcon, and Carricker are? I would say they are building blocks and foundations of the team.

Yea we need to draft quality player but when was having to many good players a problem?[/quote]

carriker isn't a great example, as he's cost us almost nothing.

every year some of the best FA moves are the ones people didn't make. we could sign revis for 10m a year and have him tear an acl immediately or not live up to the contract. outside of byrd (who never hit FA) i don't see a ton of FAs we absolutely have to have. there's a bunch of good DBs (in the draft too), but not a ton of difference makers. mike wallace would be nice i guess, but we're already paying about a billion dollars to WRs next year anyways.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I would not consider Wilson, Bowen, Cofield and Carricker building blocks. Could you find better players out their in the draft? In my opinion yes. Are they irreplaceable? Definitely not. Garçon maybe, but he needs to play in more than 10 games to consider him a building block.

The Redskins building blocks to me are Williams, Orakpo, Kerrigan, Griffin and Morris. You build an oline around Williams knowing he has the left side covered, you build your defense around Kerrigan/Orakpo knowing they will get pressure and contain (even though in my opinion Kerrigan was not that good without Orakpo), and obviously you build an offense around Griffins abilities and Morris being able to carry the load with around 25 carries a game. I do not think any one of these players are nearly as replaceable as the ones that the Redskins have signed through free agency. The only for sure exception was Fletcher, but I am not sure what to expect from him anymore.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=donofriose;997990]I would not consider Wilson, Bowen, Cofield and Carricker building blocks. Could you find better players out their in the draft? In my opinion yes. Are they irreplaceable? Definitely not. Garçon maybe, but he needs to play in more than 10 games to consider him a building block.

The Redskins building blocks to me are Williams, Orakpo, Kerrigan, Griffin and Morris. You build an oline around Williams knowing he has the left side covered, you build your defense around Kerrigan/Orakpo knowing they will get pressure and contain (even though in my opinion Kerrigan was not that good without Orakpo), and obviously you build an offense around Griffins abilities and Morris being able to carry the load with around 25 carries a game. I do not think any one of these players are nearly as replaceable as the ones that the Redskins have signed through free agency. The only for sure exception was Fletcher, but I am not sure what to expect from him anymore.[/quote]

I totally concur with that.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

What's the point in having a free agency vs the draft discussion? Because its better to pick up good players both ways. It's like having this discussion: Redskins Defense vs the Redskins Offense. Bottom line is everyone's on the same team. And to really have a good team, you really need to be good at both.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998072]What's the point in having a free agency vs the draft discussion? Because its better to pick up good players both ways. It's like having this discussion: Redskins Defense vs the Redskins Offense. Bottom line is everyone's on the same team. And to really have a good team, you really need to be good at both.[/quote]

Because the draft can get you very underpaid players. Free agency usually goes to the top bidder. The teams that are good for a long period of time usually draft well, they are constantly having youth that is underpaid on their team keeping their cap manageable.

While that may not be the situation every time, it does seem to bear out over the long run. Just compare the Redskins of the past 20 years compared to the last couple. The Eagles for the longest time were a good team. Now that being the dream team is more important, how has their record been?

IMO, free agency should be used to supplement what you have built during the draft. Not saying to ignore FA, but the main building of the team cant be FA or you will always have what we had for the longest time. Some top talent, but no where near enough overall talent and zero depth. Cant afford that when you are paying FA prices for everyone.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;998073]Because the draft can get you very underpaid players. Free agency usually goes to the top bidder. The teams that are good for a long period of time usually draft well, they are constantly having youth that is underpaid on their team keeping their cap manageable.

While that may not be the situation every time, it does seem to bear out over the long run. Just compare the Redskins of the past 20 years compared to the last couple. The Eagles for the longest time were a good team. Now that being the dream team is more important, how has their record been?

IMO, free agency should be used to supplement what you have built during the draft. Not saying to ignore FA, but the main building of the team cant be FA or you will always have what we had for the longest time. Some top talent, but no where near enough overall talent and zero depth. Cant afford that when you are paying FA prices for everyone.[/quote]

I understand personnel strategy and differences in philosophy, but I don't understand the argument with a Redskins player vs another Redskins player like Garçon vs Morris. I want both players even at Garçon's cap number. You have to utilize both methods to obtain players and every team's situation is different at any given point of the development of the team. The philosophy should be changing from year to year and not just free agency = bad and draft = good or vice versa. That's what these arguments were all heading towards. I don't think it's that black and white.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;998073]Because the draft can get you very underpaid players. Free agency usually goes to the top bidder.[/quote]

THIS. This is what it all boils down to. You'll never hit on 100% of your draft picks OR your FA signings, so you have to minimize your losses when you inevitably get an underperforming player. You drafted a bust? Oh well, he's signed to a rookie deal, so you don't really lose much. You signed an Albert Haynesworth and he sucks (or Mike Wallace this year)? Too bad, you've already guaranteed him so much money that he cripples your ability to replace him.

You can argue that FAs are generally more proven than rookies, but that neglects to take into account FAs that have to learn a new system, FAs that appear better than they are because of their supporting cast (Matt Cassel), etc. Without having any real numbers, I can still guarantee you that the "Hit Percentage" on FAs is not significantly higher than it is for high draft picks. Draft vs. Free Agency? It's all about the Benjamins... :cool-smil

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=takethecake;998302]THIS. This is what it all boils down to. You'll never hit on 100% of your draft picks OR your FA signings, so you have to minimize your losses when you inevitably get an underperforming player. You drafted a bust? Oh well, he's signed to a rookie deal, so you don't really lose much. You signed an Albert Haynesworth and he sucks (or Mike Wallace this year)? Too bad, you've already guaranteed him so much money that he cripples your ability to replace him.

You can argue that FAs are generally more proven than rookies, but that neglects to take into account FAs that have to learn a new system, FAs that appear better than they are because of their supporting cast (Matt Cassel), etc. Without having any real numbers, I can still guarantee you that the "Hit Percentage" on FAs is not significantly higher than it is for high draft picks. Draft vs. Free Agency? It's all about the Benjamins... :cool-smil[/quote]

So does it boil down to free agency is bad and the draft is good - to you? And if so (or if not)- then what is your philosophy about free agency? Keep in mind that there's a good number of redskins players that were obtained through free agency and through low risk trades. What would have done with these players and what do you do with them going forward?

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998278]I understand personnel strategy and differences in philosophy, [B]but I don't understand the argument with a Redskins player vs another Redskins player like Garçon vs Morris[/B]. I want both players even at Garçon's cap number. You have to utilize both methods to obtain players and every team's situation is different at any given point of the development of the team. The philosophy should be changing from year to year and not just free agency = bad and draft = good or vice versa. That's what these arguments were all heading towards. I don't think it's that black and white.[/quote]

The player vs player arguments are salary cap related. I want to have the starters from both the NFC pro bowl team and the AFC pro bowl team here with the Redskins, but the salary cap prevents that. So choices have to be made based on production vs pay. When you make decisions based on that, the draft usually comes out ahead.

Again, im not saying FA isnt important, Im just saying that maintaining a winning team when they dont draft well is almost impossible. Maintaining a winning team that drafts well and doesnt do much in FA is more sustainable. So to me, the draft is, and always will be, more important.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;998317]The player vs player arguments are salary cap related. I want to have the starters from both the NFC pro bowl team and the AFC pro bowl team here with the Redskins, but the salary cap prevents that. So choices have to be made based on production vs pay. When you make decisions based on that, the draft usually comes out ahead.

Again, im not saying FA isnt important, Im just saying that maintaining a winning team when they dont draft well is almost impossible. Maintaining a winning team that drafts well and doesnt do much in FA is more sustainable. So to me, the draft is, and always will be, more important.[/quote]

But it's not a discussion of free agency vs the the draft. It's more a discussion of doing well in the draft. If you do well in the draft then you won't need to depend on free agency as much - except re-signing your own. Which is what the redskins have focused in so far but arguably moreso of the cap.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

And those that prefer the draft vs free agency - what's your standpoint with signing or re-signing a free agent cornerback?

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998320]But it's not a discussion of free agency vs the the draft. It's more a discussion of doing well in the draft[B][/B]. If you do well in the draft then you won't need to depend on free agency as much - except re-signing your own. Which is what the redskins have focused in so far but arguably moreso of the cap.[/quote]

Either way, it boils down to the draft. You cant pay the FA prices to fill up a team and expect to have good players across your roster. Relying on FA usually results in little to no depth.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;998339]Either way, it boils down to the draft. You cant pay the FA prices to fill up a team and expect to have good players across your roster. Relying on FA usually results in little to no depth.[/quote]

What's your take on current redskins players that were signed or re-signed via free agency and/or trades? And also your opinion of signing a free agent cb, safety or offensive tackle?

Say you pick up 3 cb in the draft - are you prepared to cut Wilson as soon as they are drafted. This is the case you would be making. You have much more depth there with 3 cb instead of one and you get rid of his cap hit at the same time. You can do this for all of the players signed through free agency.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I'm alone in valuing free agency. ALL of the NFL teams do too.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I'm sure that there are probably at least a handful of [B][U]starting[/U][/B] players on each of the Super Bowl teams that were signed or re-signed in free agency.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998381]I'm sure that there are probably at least a handful of [B][U]starting[/U][/B] players on each of the Super Bowl teams that were signed or re-signed in free agency.[/quote]

Ravens: Leach, Pollard, McKinney and of course Boldin.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Ruhskins;998383]Ravens: Leach, Pollard, McKinney and of course Boldin.[/quote]

I would include Jacoby Jones even though he's probably not listed as a starter, but it still bolsters my point.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

superbowls are a death spell for your FO. that's part of why it's so hard to repeat... every decent FA on a superbowl team tends to get pretty good outside offers.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998386]I would include Jacoby Jones even though he's probably not listed as a starter, but it still bolsters my point.[/quote]

Actually he's a starting return specialist. So there is at least 5 right there.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998375]What's your take on current redskins players that were signed or re-signed via free agency and/or trades? And also your opinion of signing a free agent cb, safety or offensive tackle?

Say you pick up 3 cb in the draft - are you prepared to cut Wilson as soon as they are drafted. This is the case you would be making. You have much more depth there with 3 cb instead of one and you get rid of his cap hit at the same time. You can do this for all of the players signed through free agency.[/quote]

Case and point...

RG3 counts 5 mil against the cap. Name a single free agent that we have signed that has the type of value that RG3 brings to the team. If he doesnt cut it for you, how about Alfred Morris.

I like the Garcon signing, but he will never be able to provide the value that RG3 and Alfmo can bring.

Here is a better question...

Do you want a 27 or 28 year old Garcon at 8 mil per? Or a 23 or 24 year old Garcon at less than 1 mil per?

I am not against signing players via free agency. Granted we need cap space to do so, but that still doesnt change the value that they bring to the team. And yes, you resign your own. I dont count that as a FA. When the Redskins resign RG3, im not going to be calling it the greatest FA pickup ever, I will still refer to it as a draft pick even though he is no longer on his rookie contract.

Also the Ravens are not a good team to bring up. Their major talent is homegrown. The rest was filled out through FA or trades. Which is what I have been saying the whole time. FA/trades should be used to supplement the team that was built through the draft. No team is ever going to be able to claim that they never signed a FA, but the consistently good ones build through the draft and supplement through FA.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;998405]Case and point...

RG3 counts 5 mil against the cap. Name a single free agent that we have signed that has the type of value that RG3 brings to the team. If he doesnt cut it for you, how about Alfred Morris.

I like the Garcon signing, but he will never be able to provide the value that RG3 and Alfmo can bring.

Here is a better question...

Do you want a 27 or 28 year old Garcon at 8 mil per? Or a 23 or 24 year old Garcon at less than 1 mil per?

I am not against signing players via free agency. Granted we need cap space to do so, but that still doesnt change the value that they bring to the team. And yes, you resign your own. I dont count that as a FA. When the Redskins resign RG3, im not going to be calling it the greatest FA pickup ever, I will still refer to it as a draft pick even though he is no longer on his rookie contract.

Also the Ravens are not a good team to bring up. Their major talent is homegrown. The rest was filled out through FA or trades. Which is what I have been saying the whole time. FA/trades should be used to supplement the team that was built through the draft. No team is ever going to be able to claim that they never signed a FA, but the consistently good ones build through the draft and supplement through FA.[/quote]

My point is its not about one vs the other. And with Garçon- you don't have that option. The option is to have Garcon with his salary cap hit or not have him on your team and less his salary. How much you value free agency is the real discussion. Not valuing the draft less or more. The draft is probably the most important way to build a team but the team that proved that they were the best had a good amount of Super Bowl players that made the biggest plays -that were signed through free agency.

And re-signing your own free agents is part of free agency. Please. You can't take that out of the discussion to help your argument.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Without the players the ravens signed through Free Agency, they don't win the Super Bowl. They probably don't even get to the Super Bowl.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Don't argue with me with the value of the draft because I know it's the most important. Using the importance of the draft to argue against the value of free agency is what bothers me. You need to be good in free agency as well as being good in the draft - which is the most important thing (please remember I said that)

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

People need to realize we need both the draft & FA, for awhile then we SUCKED at both.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=warriorzpath;998377]I'm alone in valuing free agency. ALL of the NFL teams do too.[/quote]

No, I think guys are defending not using FA because A. We have made bad moves in the past (Vinny, Dan S) and B. We can't really participate.

Me personally, I am pretty upset that we are not able to add a couple of quality players as is the FO if you listen to their press conferences.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I don't understand why people are using the draft vs FA arguement. You are right you need to be good at both.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;998422]People need to realize we need both the draft & FA, for awhile then we SUCKED at both.[/quote]

Yes, I think Redskins fans are just traumatized by bad personnel decisions before Shanahan and Allen got here.

Before Shanahan and Allen, they overpaid and overvalued with money, trades, and draft choices in both the draft and free agency.

That's why Shanahan turned the Redskins team upside down.