Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=MTK;1296581]Nobody is taking away how he played in that game, a game we still lost by the way. Some people seem to hang on to that game like we won the SB or something. Very weird, but I guess when you're a bottom feeder of a team like this one fans are going to hold onto anything they can.

Also strikes me odd that some seem to be holding on to this idea TH can be more than he is with better coaching. Could he be better if we dug up Bill Walsh and Vince Lombardi? Yeah maybe a little I guess. In all likelihood though his limitations aren't going to allow him to be anything more than we've already seen.

At worst the guy has shown he belongs in the league as a backup, and he can carve out a nice career for himself for the next few years probably.[/quote]

TH is one of the biggest case of Ashburn syndrome I've seen in years. Astounding.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1296590]TH is one of the biggest case of Ashburn syndrome I've seen in years. Astounding.[/quote]

No doubt.

The fact the team was selling TH t-shirts after that playoff LOSS still amazes me. Total loser mentality.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=MTK;1296581]Nobody is taking away how he played in that game, a game we still lost by the way. Some people seem to hang on to that game like we won the SB or something. Very weird, but I guess when you're a bottom feeder of a team like this one fans are going to hold onto anything they can.

Also strikes me odd that some seem to be holding on to this idea TH can be more than he is with better coaching. Could he be better if we dug up Bill Walsh and Vince Lombardi? Yeah maybe a little I guess. In all likelihood though his limitations aren't going to allow him to be anything more than we've already seen.

[B]At worst the guy has shown he belongs in the league as a backup, and he can carve out a nice career for himself for the next few years probably[/B].[/quote]

+1

From sleeping on his sister's couch to making millions as an NFL backup while getting to play the game he loves (just not as a starter) - it's not a bad life.

The arm thing - can't tell if you're talking about arm strength or accuracy. His inaccuracy is killing us - Brady doesn't have the best arm strength either but he knows where to place the ball. Heinicke seems to have a case of the jitters - it's mental with him. Not sure we want to give him the entire year to see if he can get past it.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=mooby;1296596]+1

From sleeping on his sister's couch to making millions as an NFL backup while getting to play the game he loves (just not as a starter) - it's not a bad life.

[B]The arm thing - can't tell if you're talking about arm strength or accuracy.[/B] His inaccuracy is killing us - Brady doesn't have the best arm strength either but he knows where to place the ball. Heinicke seems to have a case of the jitters - it's mental with him. Not sure we want to give him the entire year to see if he can get past it.[/quote]

It's both. When a guy has a subpar arm he needs to make up for it by throwing with anticipation and rhythm. He hasn't shown he can do that consistently. More often than not he has to scramble around and make plays off schedule, which he is pretty good at, but yeah the inaccuracy is also a big killer. And when he misses he often misses high, which leads to tipped balls and possible INTs.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1296581]Nobody is taking away how he played in that game, a game we still lost by the way. Some people seem to hang on to that game like we won the SB or something. Very weird, but I guess when you're a bottom feeder of a team like this one fans are going to hold onto anything they can.

Also strikes me odd that some seem to be holding on to this idea TH can be more than he is with better coaching. Could he be better if we dug up Bill Walsh and Vince Lombardi? Yeah maybe a little I guess. In all likelihood though his limitations aren't going to allow him to be anything more than we've already seen.

At worst the guy has shown he belongs in the league as a backup, and he can carve out a nice career for himself for the next few years probably.[/QUOTE]


Totally agree actually. Personally I wasn’t or haven’t hung on to that game like it was anything just that I saw him ball out against an awesome defense in a pressure situation (first start and a playoff game) so I do hold onto the fact that he has it in him. Plus i just bought it up in reply to Chiefs comment. But as the weeks go by that game appears more and more to be a fluke and not the norm.
Im also worried about the quarterback class coming out. Dont wanna reach for someone in the first round.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I can't wait for the day when we are not discussing TH as our starter. Forget Watson cause he ain't coming here. No elite free agent QB is coming here.

We have to draft the franchise guy. That is the only way we are going to get one. My issue is do we have the right staff to develop that guy? Will he have to deal w/ multiple staffs if Ron gets blown out this time next year? Even if we draft a guy can he be successful here? It's hard enough getting one, hitting on one. Then that guy will have to deal w/ all the bullshit here - a lot for a guy in his early 20's to overcome.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=punch it in;1296552]No I dont think he is a stud. Lol. Far from it. That was my point. Studs like McLaurin do not need the coaching like a guy like Heineke does. Guys like Heineke are why coaches are important. When i said “others” I didn’t mean other studs. I literally meant others that aren’t studs.

I also agree that Quarterback is the most important position. However on this current team with this current coaching staff a stud quarterback isn’t transforming us into contenders. We also need a new staff and several other pieces. What quarterback is over coming this defense-the worst in the league?

We need a quarterback- NO DOUBT- but we also need a staff, a handful of players on defense, and a halfway decent kicker if we are going to contend.[/quote]

I'd like to see Turner w/ a stud QB. That is really the only way we can judge him.

Someone posted on You Tube the coaches tape of the Buffalo game. There were numerous guys running wide open and TH either missed them or did not throw them the ball. It is easy for everyone to call out Turner. But when I see that guys are in fact open and are not getting the ball then why are be bashing Turner? He is calling plays for a very limited QB. He probably called all those screens last week cause he knows he doesn't have a QB that can get the job done.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Yeah, I was definitely a Turner basher early on, but I am beginning to realize that it is more about the QB situation and the injuries than him.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1296859]Yeah, I was definitely a Turner basher early on, but I am beginning to realize that it is more about the QB situation and the injuries than him.[/QUOTE]


Yes but than why is Turner going air coryell?

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1296859]Yeah, I was definitely a Turner basher early on, but I am beginning to realize that it is more about the QB situation and the injuries than him.[/quote]

Bingo

Haskins - pathetic, embarrassing first round bust
Alex Smith - severely injured, past his prime vet nobody picked up after he was cut
Fitz - limited time in system, injuried
Heineken- journeyman with no starting experience
Our third QB - forget his name, meh results injuried

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=punch it in;1296861]Yes but than why is Turner going air coryell?[/quote]

Thats the big question. Why is Turner forcing a square into a circle hole. Seems like (and someone posted on here before) that Turner asks his QBs to progress from deep to short. Unless its a designed 7 yard slant or screen.

Last year Turner did a decent job of tailoring the playbook to his QB. Logan Paulsen said he didnt really see us using a full playbook until Alex Smith came back but then Alex would turn down the down field passes.

Heinike had 0 runs last week.

I think he is a limited QB and Turner has a difficult task but he has to figure this out.

Heinike has had 1st team reps for 5 plus weeks now .. Turner has had 5 plus weeks to learn and adapt to Heinike.

2nd half against the Chiefs felt like we gave up and just did screens, dinks and dunks like Turner was almost "pouting" with his play calls, throwing in the towel.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=punch it in;1296861]Yes but than why is Turner going air coryell?[/quote]

Good question. He is running my favorite offense but with the completely wrong QB for it. Heinicke needs more of a college like offense.

Please just draft a good QB in 2022.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Ryan Fitzpatrick was supposed to be the guy to run Turner's offense, which is a version of the "Air Coryell" offense. That lasted less than a half.

Turner hasn't been able to run his offense since he's been here. He hasn't had the personnel to do it. It has been all about trying to adapt his offense to the limitations of the players and personnel. It's probably been tough for him - with five different QBs in 23 games so far, and injuries across the WR/TE/RB positions.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1296935]Ryan Fitzpatrick was supposed to be the guy to run Turner's offense, which is a version of the "Air Coryell" offense. That lasted less than a half.

Turner hasn't been able to run his offense since he's been here. He hasn't had the personnel to do it. It has been all about trying to adapt his offense to the limitations of the players and personnel. It's probably been tough for him - with five different QBs in 23 games so far, and injuries across the WR/TE/RB positions.[/QUOTE]


Yeah but he is an OC in the NFL getting paid millions. Instead of adapting his offense to the personnel, adapt the personnel to a different variety of your offense. He knew Taylor was the backup and new Taylor would probably be involved at some point. Maybe not week one, but….
Like Sunnyside said stop with the square peg into the round hole. Adapt. That’s his job. He is not adapting to this point…

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1296858]I'd like to see Turner w/ a stud QB. That is really the only way we can judge him.

Someone posted on You Tube the coaches tape of the Buffalo game. There were numerous guys running wide open and TH either missed them or did not throw them the ball. It is easy for everyone to call out Turner. But when I see that guys are in fact open and are not getting the ball then why are be bashing Turner? He is calling plays for a very limited QB. He probably called all those screens last week cause he knows he doesn't have a QB that can get the job done.[/QUOTE]


A stud quarterback will make any OC look decent. A stud OC will make any quarterback(offense) look decent.
Turner needs to tweek shit and cater to his personnel. How you ask? I have no fuckin idea but Turner needs to figure it out.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Sounding more and more like RF might be done for the year. In that case I'm ready for some Kyle Allen soon.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Free Agent class has worked out well this year. Man, this team is ran like ass but also just has terrible fucking luck.

If we win more than 5 games I'll be shocked.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=MTK;1297505]Sounding more and more like RF might be done for the year. In that case I'm ready for some Kyle Allen soon.[/quote]

Same here. At least Allen knows he doesn't have a strong arm. I just hope he doesn't get hurt again.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I am more of the the line that offense and play calling is stunted due to the personnel rather than the OC. While I haven't been wowed by Turner I have been less than impressed with TH's execution of what he is being given.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

TH is what he is, an undrafted Small QB that has a very average NFL Arm. He's also not accurate , sucks but he isn't the answer either

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

turner stinks to me. TH has been underwhelming as well but turner i mean theres some really questionable calls here and mind numbing over use of the shotgun at times. i think we went one game where we ran 3 entire plays from under center.... 3.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I've been critical of S Turner since last year, but I am changing my tune. I am less inclined to put the offensive woes on him anymore. I'll reserve judgment for when we actually have a QB, and a full complement of receivers, TEs, and RBs who fit the offense he wants to run. He hasn't had that so far. He's had at best a #2 QB his entire time here, he hasn't had a true #2 receiver, he's had a banged up #1 RB, and a converted QB for a #1 TE who is now injured.

It's amazing the offense has even looked serviceable at times.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Hard to get too upset with Turner given the garbage QB's he's been given to work with.

Reminds me of when fans got upset at Kyle Shanahan and the fact he couldn't work miracles with the likes of Grossman, Beck, and a checked out McNabb.

Mark Bullock's breakdowns have shown that he is scheming guys open and the main issue is with TH not delivering.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Meks;1297559]turner stinks to me. TH has been underwhelming as well but turner i mean theres some really questionable calls here and mind numbing over use of the shotgun at times. i think we went one game where we ran 3 entire plays from under center.... 3.[/quote]

Meks you know why, youre a learned fan .. shotgun is good for mobile Qbs and running a spread offense. Also easier for young Qbs as they can see the field immediately and dont have to worry as much about foot work and dropping back.

As long as we can still run out of shotgun so we dont telegraph pass every time we do shotgun .. im sure it is helping Heinike.

But yeah .. Im guessing were 80% plus of snaps in shotgun putting us in the top 5 w teams like Balt and Arizona

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=SunnySide;1297566]Meks you know why, youre a learned fan .. shotgun is good for mobile Qbs and running a spread offense. Also easier for young Qbs as they can see the field immediately and dont have to worry as much about foot work and dropping back.

As long as we can still run out of shotgun so we dont telegraph pass every time we do shotgun .. im sure it is helping Heinike.[/quote]

also good for a shorter QB to help him see

TH is not a guy that should be under center a ton

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=MTK;1297505]Sounding more and more like RF might be done for the year. In that case I'm ready for some Kyle Allen soon.[/quote]

Why...what's the point? Even if Kyle is a little better than TH...it ain't making any difference in the outcome of these games. THIS team is just not a good team, and the coaches have not found any way to make them better. And I think if the coaches thought Kyle was better, he'd already be playing.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Redskins247;1297568]Why...what's the point? Even if Kyle is a little better than TH...it ain't making any difference in the outcome of these games. THIS team is just not a good team, and the coaches have not found any way to make them better. And I think if the coaches thought Kyle was better, he'd already be playing.[/quote]

Im not sure Kyle Allen will win us any games above what Heinike has done and will do in the future ... but it may be helpful for evaluation purposes. Im not saying Heinke is as bad as it was towards the end w RG3 but Heinike is not running plays as designed.

I understand that on the field shit happens and happens quickly and its not as easy as drawing up plays in the friendly confines of a film room ... but id like to see Turner's offense run on time how it is designed.

is Humphries good at getting separation in the LOS for crucial 5-7 yard pass plays to move the sticks? I dont know bc the ball doesnt come out right away if he does win at the line.

Are some of these long routes open bc a receiver runs an underneath route pulling the safety up? IDK bc the ball isnt coming out.

Backyard offense.

All we do know is Heinike is good at scrambling and Terry is good at winning 50/50 balls.

I want to be ale to judge Turner. I want to know if receivers are winning their routes. We have to go back and rely on people w the All 22 to see bc the tv feed stays on the QB who just holds, scrambles then throws on a now broken play.

TV feed .. we have no idea if guys are open or not.

I want to know if its play design. I will know if the Qb throws the ball on time as designed.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Redskins247;1297568]Why...what's the point? Even if Kyle is a little better than TH...it ain't making any difference in the outcome of these games. THIS team is just not a good team, and the coaches have not found any way to make them better. And I think if the coaches thought Kyle was better, he'd already be playing.[/quote]

Last year Rivera said this when asked about Allen...

[quote]Question: Could you have been in this position this year right now where you are before the playoffs without Alex?

"Well, if we had a healthy Kyle Allen, I think we could've. I really do," Rivera said. "I think we could've. And a big part of the reason is because Kyle, he's very similar to Alex in terms of his abilities. He's got the same kind of arm. He makes good decisions like Alex does. He's got good footwork. I think we could've been. I do."[/quote]

So if there's any chance of turning this season around, make the switch before it's too late. Haven't we seen just about enough of TH at this point to know he's just not starting material? If Rivera truly believes in Allen and he's healthy, why wouldn't you make the switch? They gave this Heinicke thing a chance, it's not working.

I really think if TH doesn't get it done against Denver we could see Allen after the bye.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I say make the change

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Redskins247;1297568]Why...what's the point? Even if Kyle is a little better than TH...it ain't making any difference in the outcome of these games. THIS team is just not a good team, and the coaches have not found any way to make them better. And I think if the coaches thought Kyle was better, he'd already be playing.[/quote]

There might be one player on this team, who when he talks, I tend to pretty much believe whatever he is saying. That is Jonathan Allen. After the game on Sunday he expressed his frustration, saying that this team is "such a better football team than what our record says". He later said "Losing teams find ways to lose games, and winning teams find ways to win games. And right now, we’re finding ways to lose."

It sound like he's saying that - while they are finding ways to lose, this team is not as bad as their record says they are.

They have obviously coached and played their way to the record they currently have, there's no disputing that. However, if Jonathan Allen thinks they have what it takes to be a better team, then with 10 games left I can't write them off yet.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I would absolutely give Kyle a shot !!

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I think its time for Allen as well but I don't see Ron doing it

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Part of Bullock's latest TH breakdown

[quote]Now seven weeks into the season, we’re starting to get a better understanding of what Washington has in quarterback Taylor Heinicke. His sample size is still small and he could still improve or regress, but importantly, we’re starting to see repeated trends within his play that suggest he has some consistent issues. His stat line against the Packers, where he completed 25 of 37 passes for 268 yards and one touchdown and one interception, as always failed to tell the whole story.

So what are the trends we’re seeing from Heinicke as he gets more opportunities to start? Let’s take a closer look

Ball placement issues

Since the start of the season, it’s been clear to see that Heinicke has had issues with accuracy and ball placement. You can look at his stats and see he’s completing just over 64% of his passes this year, which isn’t terrible though it does rank 26th of 34 eligible quarterbacks. But accuracy and specifically ball placement is more than just completing passes, it’s about putting the ball in a position to help the receiver not only catch the ball, but pick up additional yards after the catch. That is where Heinicke has hurt his receivers. His ball placement has consistently been high and behind targets and his velocity hasn’t been great either, which leads to receivers having to wait for balls to arrive and stop their momentum to adjust their bodies to the pass.

These two plays are examples of this issue from the Packers game. The first play of the clip shows Terry McLaurin running wide open on a sail route. He has tons of room to work with and a good throw could see him turn up the sideline and pick up even more yards. The throw, however, is late to arrive, high and off target. That forces McLaurin to come back to the path of the ball and then jump to just reach it. He manages to make the catch, but the throw means the defenders around him were able to close in and limit the yards after catch potential.

The second play of the clip is a pivot route from Adam Humphries in the slot. Heinicke delivers the throw on time, as Humphries makes his break outside. However, the throw is again behind its target and lacks velocity, forcing Humphries to slow down out of his break and allowing the defender a chance to catch up. A better throw with more velocity and placed further outside might give Humphries a chance to catch the ball and turn up the sideline before the defender can close on him.

Limiting yards after the catch is an issue as it severely hurts the potential of the offense, especially with guys like Terry McLaurin and Curtis Samuel (when healthy), who are so good after the catch. It also must be frustrating for receivers like McLaurin, who get open regularly with well run routes only to have to slow down and fight for contested catches because of poorly thrown balls. But the more frustrating thing for receivers, I’d imagine, is Heinicke exposing them to hits.

This is becoming an increasingly large issue for Washington, especially with the number of pass catchers currently sidelined. The three plays in this clip are just a handful of some of the hits Heinicke has exposed his receivers to. The first play is a shallow cross to J.D. McKissic in which Heinicke throws high and behind McKissic with another slow, lofty throw. McKissic has to concentrate on turning his body back to the ball to try and make the catch that he’s completely unaware of the safety charging in behind him. With McKissic’s whole body in the air in an awkward position to try and catch the ball, the safety is able to land a big hit that could have led to an injury, though fortunately it didn’t.

The second play is similar to the sail route we saw to McLaurin earlier. This time the route is read much better by the safety and he drives down on it, but the floaty pass from Heinicke means McLaurin has to wait and jump up for the ball, again exposing him to a hit from behind where he can’t protect himself.

The third play is perhaps the worst of the lot, with McKissic working on a choice route out of the backfield. Granted, Heinicke does feel some early pressure inside and needs to get the ball out quickly. However, he locks onto McKissic, leading the safety straight to him, and then delivers another high and floaty pass that leads McKissic straight into the safety. McKissic takes another huge hit that again he’s fortunate to get back up from.

The issues with ball placement and velocity are becoming significant. They aren’t just hindering the offense by limiting the yards after catch potential and having receivers have to fight for contested catches, they’re exposing receivers to big hits. Washington is already without Samuel, Logan Thomas, Cam Sims and now rookie Dyami Brown. If the team were to lose McLaurin from a hit after one of these throws, the offense would be in big trouble.
[/quote]

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Spot on.

TH's accuracy is terrible. Terry has been making miracle catches to save TH, but sooner or later Terry is going to get hurt making those high catches.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1297589]Spot on.

TH's accuracy is terrible. Terry has been making miracle catches to save TH, but sooner or later Terry is going to get hurt making those high catches.[/quote]

Usually smaller QB's (in my coaching experiences) do not throw high as much as TH does, the dude is just not very accurate. I Love his gamer mentality tho and I believe he should stay on as a QB2

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1297591]Usually smaller QB's (in my coaching experiences) do not throw high as much as TH does, the dude is just not very accurate. I Love his gamer mentality tho and I believe he should stay on as a QB2[/quote]

Yes, but if its as bad as the film suggests, maybe Allen should be that #1 at this point. Not so much to find a spark (which I doubt Allen brings) but to protect your prized assets on O.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=SunnySide;1297569]Im not sure Kyle Allen will win us any games above what Heinike has done and will do in the future ... but it may be helpful for evaluation purposes. Im not saying Heinke is as bad as it was towards the end w RG3 but Heinike is not running plays as designed.

I understand that on the field shit happens and happens quickly and its not as easy as drawing up plays in the friendly confines of a film room ... but id like to see Turner's offense run on time how it is designed.

is Humphries good at getting separation in the LOS for crucial 5-7 yard pass plays to move the sticks? I dont know bc the ball doesnt come out right away if he does win at the line.

Are some of these long routes open bc a receiver runs an underneath route pulling the safety up? IDK bc the ball isnt coming out.

Backyard offense.

All we do know is Heinike is good at scrambling and Terry is good at winning 50/50 balls.

I want to be ale to judge Turner. I want to know if receivers are winning their routes. We have to go back and rely on people w the All 22 to see bc the tv feed stays on the QB who just holds, scrambles then throws on a now broken play.

TV feed .. we have no idea if guys are open or not.

I want to know if its play design. I will know if the Qb throws the ball on time as designed.[/quote]

Well those are certainly valid points, and if/when they lose to Denver and wanted to start Kyle after for those reasons then that's probably the smart thing to do. And maybe they learn something about the offense, but I don't see it making a difference in wins but it will show they are trying everything if nothing else. What we've learned is that TH is a good backup to keep around.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Redskins247;1297631]Well those are certainly valid points, and [B]if/when they lose to Denver[/B] and wanted to start Kyle after for those reasons then that's probably the smart thing to do. And maybe they learn something about the offense, but I don't see it making a difference in wins but it will show they are trying everything if nothing else. What we've learned is that TH is a good backup to keep around.[/quote]

I think they'll beat Denver. I have tickets to the game, but was talking to the wife this morning about selling them.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=AnonEmouse;1297604]Yes, but if its as bad as the film suggests, maybe Allen should be that #1 at this point. Not so much to find a spark (which I doubt Allen brings) but to protect your prized assets on O.[/QUOTE]


Allen is TH without the gamer mentality.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=punch it in;1297633]Allen is TH without the gamer mentality.[/quote]

I think so too. And while I know Kyle can move around and be mobile, I think he'll show more of where the O line is at. Is TH bailing on plays too soon? Or is it a necessity?