Is Ramsey Going To Get A Fair Shot?
 

This may be utterly obvious to everyone but me-but- Does it seem to anyone else that Ramsey will not have a legitimate chance at the job. My reason for this is the tone that all of the questions related to the subject seem to be answered in. Like "well, he'll definitely have a chance to compete." and Brunell's "well, I'm not having anything handed to me." It just seems like if you read between the lines, the kids not starting. I don't know if I'm explaining my points very well, it's just a feeling I'm getting. Also, on 'Skins website they're marketing two jersey's heavily- Arrington and Brunell not Mr. Ramsey. As a Ramsey fan I'm probably just being paranoid.

Burnell will probably win the job because overall he is a better quarterback, but Ramsey will have his chance if through injury or maybe next year if he improves enough to become a starter.

[QUOTE=Duffman003]Burnell will probably win the job because overall he is a better quarterback, but Ramsey will have his chance if through injury or maybe next year if he improves enough to become a starter.[/QUOTE]

yeah, it just seems all of the talk about his chances this year comes off a little condescending.

I would say Brunell pretty much it is his to loose. I think only if Ramsey has an oustanding preseason he can win it. But regardless if Ramsey starts he will play soon enough. Brunell will be hurt by the 5th game, well unless are line is really awsome then a little bit later.

My gut feeling is that there will be an honest competition for the job with a couple of caveats - Brunnell has a a distinct but not overwhelming "head start" in the race to be starter AND all ties go to Brunnell.

With that said, Patrick can win the job. Gibbs is not an idiot and will play the guy who he believes gives the 'Skins the best chance to win. Period.

Given the nature of the position and for Ramsey to win the competition, however, Ramsey has to be noticeably better than Brunnell at comprehending the offense, play/defense recognition and actual passing skill (accuracy, release, touch-passing, and arm strenth). If he is better than Brunell in two of those three areas, I think Gibbs will make him starter.

If, based on their mental and physical SKILLS, Gibbs feels they are basically interchangeable in terms of giving the team a chance to win, Brunell will get the nod based on his veteran status.

Essentially, Brunell has a skill set which Ramsey simply does not have right now and which he cannot get; the "been there done that" skills - The experience of being a starter (and winner) in the league over a long period of time. Because Ramsey cannot compete with Brunell in this area, Ramsey has to clearly beat Brunell in those areas which he can compete.

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy]yeah, it just seems all of the talk about his chances this year comes off a little condescending.[/QUOTE]

well it must be ok with ramsey cuz we haven't heard anything like we did when brunnel first came to town. i trust gibbs to put out the best qb and will let the 2 guys battle it out. that being said, brunnel has some distinct advantages over gibbs so the job looks like it will and should be his. plus this competition will show us how badly ramsey wants the job and to be on the team in the future.

I think either guy "could" come out of training camp the starter. However Gibbs has made no secret of the fact he like experience at the QB position. Ramsey would have to look quite a bit better in both training camp and the preseason games to come out the starter.

Gibbs will play the best player.

I truly believe the deciding factor on whether or not Ramsey starts will be solely based on whether or not he is able to make his reads and determine quickly whether to throw the ball to a receiver or get rid of it. I think we all know that Ramsey is not going to run anywhere so I think personally that if his able to get rid of the ball quick enough he will lead us to glory, if not he will watch until he does learn how too! :dallas: :dallas:

Mark Brunell came here for one reason: to start. Everyone keeps talking about an open competition. No way. Not with the amount of money Brunell is getting. Brunell is the better choice right now than Ramsey. He's got tons more experience, can read defenses better, and of course is much more mobile. His career passing rating is also 85.

I truly believe that it will take Ramsey some time to unlearn Spurrier's teachings before he will become a viable NFL QB and someone that Gibbs can trust to run the Redskins. Without a doubt, he has the physical ability and intelligence... he may be a little shell-shocked and beaten up... he'll just need time. Brunell's contract will work for 3 years before he's released or retires. We'll see a decision made about Patrick before then.

Historically, Joe has never been shy about changing directions with his QBs, winning 3 Superbowls with 3 different QBs. He will go with whoever gives him the best chance to win regardless of how much they're paid, and he's always been able to get the rest of the team to buy into his decisions.

Its a shame in a way, I think Ramsey has a chance to be a good QB, but he'll want out of DC now and in 3 years we most likey will have neither of these guys on the team.

All I know is Ramsey had better have worked on his pocket presence/mobility during the off season. He was flat footed last year who couldn't even step up when the rush was on.

I believe Gibbs will give the job to whoever performs best and right now that’s Brunell. That could all change in training camp though.

Personally I put more of his sacks on the O-line then him. I think after a while he was shell shocked and a little timid though. I said it from the very begining that Spurier was a giant mistake and his style of offense wouldn't cut it in the NFL.

Let me tell you guys all some about Brunnel. He sucks. And let me tell you guys about Ramsey, he's gonna be the best. With the new empasis on protection and our vertical passing game, is a perfect fit for Ramsey. Everyone will see in time, that Ramsey is the next star of the NFL. Forget about Brunnel, and to hell with that experience crap. Brunnel is a gimp.

Brunnell may be a gimp in your opinion, but unless Patrick totally outdoes him in camp and Pre-season, Brunnell will be the starter due to his experience. Coach wants a seasoned veteran at QB right now and Patrick should use this time to learn from both Brunnell and Coach Gibbs. If PR does that, he will be the starter and future of the Skins within the next 2 years. We need PR to stick around and hopefully he'll see that if he does he'll probably be Coaches next Superbowl winning QB.

I agree with you the line didn't even give him a chance to blink much less read a defense. I think with the right protection Ramsey could be a possible Super Bowl MVP.


Maybe I'm just wishfull thinking, but I was at Texas Stadium last year, and I seen a lot of possibities when he dropped back. It was just too bad that he got sacked like it was his job.

As long as he gets a fair shot, thats all I ask. If Gibbs is what we all think he is, Ramsey will get a fair shot, no questions asked. If its 100% dead even, and they give the nod to Brunell, I'll understand that based on experiance.

However, otherwise , may the best man win. I'm pullin hard for Ramsey, hes my favorite Redskin. If he loses the job fair and square, then he will have the chance to learn. I dont dislike Brunell, in fact I really do like him. I just hope this is a fair and impartial competiton.

I truly don't think there will be a real competition. Brunnell is what Gibbs wants. He will start. Having said that, I don't think Brunnell will last a complete season without injury, so Ramsay will get his turn in this. I think in the long run it could be good for Ramsay's psychie to decompress from last year's beatings!

-----the psychologist! :-)

My thoughts exactly. Brunnell may get the start this season, but he wont last physically past week 4 or 5. I'd personally love to see Ramsey get the start though, I think he's got the making of an MVP. And the experience factor doesn't mean squat to me. If so, we'd be refering to Bledsoe as 2 time Superbowl MVP instead of Brady. Money wont mean squat when it comes to game time. Coach Gibbs will do what is best for the team to win. All smart coaches do.

Of course, Gibbs will provide the open competition as promised. What you are hearing is due to the expectations. Virtually every expert has seen both guys in action and expects Brunell to win based on what they have shown in the past. Could Ramsey turn it around and take the job? Sure - but not extremely likely.

- Ramsey has a great arm.

- Ramsy has an extremely slow release - did you notice the difference in sacks when Hasselbeck was the QB?

- Ramsey "thinks" too slowly - again, leading to many sacks.

I sure hope the new coaching staff can teach Ramsey to speed up his footwork, thinking, and overall release. If so, he can be among the best someday. If not, his offensive lines will get tired of taking all the blame.

John Shaffer
National Fantasy Sports Leagues
Home of "[I]The Best Game In Town[/I]" since 1990

To be honest, I don't care which one starts as long as that they can prove to us fans, and Coach Gibbs that they can lead the Skins' to Championships. It would really do Ramsey some good to sit out for a season and see how Gibbs' offense is ran. Even though Gibbs' offense is "user friendly" like Theismann put it, still, I think sitting out a season and learning the offense from practice and from watching on the sidelines would prove to be in Ramsey's favor come the next year.

[QUOTE=kingerock]...And the experience factor doesn't mean squat to me. If so, we'd be refering to Bledsoe as 2 time Superbowl MVP instead of Brady. Money wont mean squat when it comes to game time. Coach Gibbs will do what is best for the team to win. All smart coaches do.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, level of play is more important than experience. However, when it comes to level of play on the field, Ramsey's style of play is more similar to Bledsoe than Brady. Ramsey, like Bledsoe, has a very strong arm, but they both hold on to the ball way too long. They are both slow at reading defenses and deciding the correct place to throw the ball. Slow to release the ball. They are also both very slow footed and not very good at avoiding the rush. They both get sacked alot because they are not good at sensing the pass rushers around them.
Brunell, is more like Brady, they do not have the strongest arm. But they both are very good at scrambling to create more time to throw. They sense the rush around them better than Ramsey and can often escape. But most importmant they just win. It may not be pretty, but they just win.

Ramsey's clear weakness' are the only reason why I not yet ready to call him the next great Redskins QB. He needs to overcome these problems in his play before we make him our fulltime starter. It is the main reason why I think Gibbs paid a hefty price get Brunnell. Gibbs came in and saw the film of Ramsey and realized he is not yet ready to take us to the playoffs and beyond. He needs a year of coaching to get rid of his bad habit of holding the ball too long.
Having said all of this, I want Ramsey as our future QB more than anyone else.

[quote]
- Ramsy has an extremely slow release - did you notice the difference in sacks when Hasselbeck was the QB?

- Ramsey "thinks" too slowly - again, leading to many sacks.
[/quote]
Ramsey does have a slow release, but Spurrier changed his system when Hasselbeck was in. He made most of the plays 3 step drops, which I think with Ramsey would have worked VERY well. The people bringing constant Blitz packages would get trounced by a bunch of short/intermediate passes which in turn would have given him more time. The reason Hasselbeck didn't get as dirty was a change in the game plan, not a change in QB.

Ramsey is a very smart kid. He is young, and you need to be in a position to read a defense to learn it. He'll be ok. I bet he can recognize a blitz package now. He's an extremely intelligent guy, although that doesn't translate to football, it shows that he has the ability to pick things up.

As far as a fair competition. No shot at one. Gibbs is already set on Brunell, I'm sure of it. I think that this is Ramsey's team to lose, not Ramsey's team to win. I think Brunell should play exceptionally in order to steal the starting job. Ramsey is a real Redskin, Brunell is just a cash chaser. Maybe he'll get injured early.

Assuming Brunell gets the start, then assuming he gets injured and Ramsey steps in and plays well. Im wondering how Gibbs would handle a QB coming back from an injury. We've definitly got the making for a QB controversy in DC, and thats not somethign that will help us grow as a team. I know Gibbs is a good coach but its never easy when you have two starting QBs to pick between them.

[QUOTE=Daseal]As far as a fair competition. No shot at one. Gibbs is already set on Brunell, I'm sure of it. I think that this is Ramsey's team to lose, not Ramsey's team to win. I think Brunell should play exceptionally in order to steal the starting job. Ramsey is a real Redskin, Brunell is just a cash chaser. Maybe he'll get injured early.[/QUOTE]

i hope brunnel doesn't get injured early cuz he's the better of the two qbs right now. it's look like ramsey was an absolute look just because he had 2 or 3 good games last year and got up after get beaten every game. that doesn't translate into a good qb. he needs some time to flush spurriers schemes out of him, he still needs to recover from his foot, and he needs work on his awareness of how long he has to throw the ball instead of looking and looking and looking, until he gets clobered from the backside and loses the ball. ramsey still has a lot of developing to do so why not let a more proven qb help the team out while ramsey gets to be the qb we all want him to be?

Because this is Ramsey's team and it's a shot in his pride and will make him resent the orginization. Don't give me that "well, it's the NFL" type of shit. He gave his all for this team last year and I think he deserves to be the incumbant starter. As I said, it's his team to lose. Not his team to win.

I don't agree with the knock that Ramsey is 'slow' in reading a defense or has a slow release. I think it has more to do with the fact he is too willing to hang in the pocket until the very last second to deliver a throw (much like Bledsoe), when instead he needs to learn when to dump it off and keep the chains moving. Of course in Spurrier's offense there weren't many dump off options for him anyway.

Brunell's experience is what Gibbs wants in there. But if for some odd reason Brunell struggles and Ramsey shines, Ramsey will be the guy. Gibbs will play the guy that's best suited to lead the team, but Brunell has the early inside track.

As for Ramsey deserving to be the starter based on last year, I don't really agree with that either. Nobody deserves anything especially under a new coaching staff. Everyone has to go out there and earn their playing time and earn the respect of the new staff. Nothing will be handed to anyone under Gibbs, nor should it be.

If it's a close race, I feel as if Ramsey should get the nod, seeing as this is his team. If one player obviously outshines the other then it's not a question as to who starts. However I think it will be a tough competition and Ramsey won't get enough consideration.

[QUOTE=Daseal]Ramsey does have a slow release, but Spurrier changed his system when Hasselbeck was in. He made most of the plays 3 step drops, which I think with Ramsey would have worked VERY well. [/QUOTE]

Actually, over the course of the season, Ramsey ran many plays with a 3-step drop. It did not help him. When you think slowly as well as move slowly, you are not going to do well with the 3-step drop which is designed for very fast-developing plays. I'm sure Gibbs' staff will have routines designed to attempt to improve his speed. Maybe the thinking will speed up with some time behind Brunell on the sidelines. It will require more of what he sees down the field triggering automatic responses.

John Shaffer
National Fantasy Sports Leagues, Inc.
Home of "[I]The Best Game In Town[/I]" since 1990

[QUOTE=Daseal]Because this is Ramsey's team and it's a shot in his pride and will make him resent the orginization. Don't give me that "well, it's the NFL" type of shit. He gave his all for this team last year and I think he deserves to be the incumbant starter. As I said, it's his team to lose. Not his team to win.[/QUOTE]

i realy like ramsey and hope he can use this time to work on his flaws, but just because a qb takes a pounding while putting up slightly above average stats, shouldn't make him the starter by default. especially when they've brought in a much more proven and talented qb who still has some gas in the tank. didn't hasselback give his all for the team last year when he got put in, so does that mean he should be in the running for the starting job? that's their jobs, it doesn't make them the better choice to help the team win. if ramsey plays how we hope he can this summer than we will be seeing him start sometime this year with or without an injury to brunnel, but right now at this given moment, brunnel is the better qb to help this team win right away and thats what i care about rather than a player's pride and ego. 6 wins out of 15(i'm not counting the miami game where he got hurt very early in the game) starts doesn't really scream out starter by default to me and i hope he can use the time while brunnel starts to first and foremost completely recover from his foot surgery and then work on his game footage studies and his pocket awareness and timing. the coaches know a little bit more about the current skills of the two qbs than us right now and there's a reason gibbs worked so hard and gave up as much as they did to bring in brunnel so i'll take my chances trusting gibbs' judgement.

So, had the defense actually held once and a while and we made or narrowly missed the playoff's you'd be for Ramsey? He put points on the board, our defense is what killed us last year. We couldn't seem to ever hold a team when it was important.

I didn't say he should be handed the starting spot, but Brunell should have to take it, not have Ramsey take it from Brunell.

[QUOTE=Daseal]So, had the defense actually held once and a while and we made or narrowly missed the playoff's you'd be for Ramsey? He put points on the board, our defense is what killed us last year. We couldn't seem to ever hold a team when it was important.

I didn't say he should be handed the starting spot, but Brunell should have to take it, not have Ramsey take it from Brunell.[/QUOTE]

yeah u have a point that the defense more often than not didn't do squat, but one of ramsey main weaknesses(holding onto the ball too long) led to way too many fumbles and a few of them happened within the skins half of the field. 17 fumbles with 10 being lost in 2 years, is way too many for a qb standing in the pocket. i know some of those were do to bad blocking, but he still needs to develop better awareness and get rid of the ball or atleast cover up better.

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru] but one of ramsey main weaknesses(holding onto the ball too long) led to way too many fumbles and a few of them happened within the skins half of the field. 17 fumbles with 10 being lost in 2 years, is way too many for a qb standing in the pocket. [/QUOTE]

Skinsfan, you are right on the mark with this one. The absolute best thing for RAMSEY right now is to get some time learning under an experienced QB. He is clearly not "quite" ready for prime time. Some more sideline time will actually give him his best shot at having a long, successful NFL career. And as far as the nonsense about his ego, does anyone really buy that media invention? There may have been one or two extreme situations over many, many years where that was a contributing factor in a QB's demise. (And it had to be a guy with an inherent lack of confidence to begin with). But every year the media hauls it out dozens of times - every time there is a QB swap. C'mon - they are not 10-year-old girls. If they are tough enough to play in the NFL, they better be able to handle some bench time while they learn. This happens at every other position, but only the QB's get tagged as having such fragile egos. I don't buy it for one second. Gibbs has stated they will get an equal shot - how could anything be more fair than that? Anyone that wants to be given an "advantage" over his competition in winning a starting shot does not have the best interests of the team in mind!

John Shaffer
National Fantasy Sports Leagues
Home of "The Best Game In Town" since 1990

Because QBs are the leaders of the offense. That's why people make a big deal for it. A QB controversey isn't good for anyone.

There you go again - another media deal. Every time a QB change takes place, it is a "QB controversy". You need to stop buying in to so much nonsense. If you went by these "ego" and "controversy" guidelines, once a QB got to start a game, the job would be his for life. That's not the way it works (thank God) - in the NFL or anyplace else. Let the performance speak for itself. Fortunately, we again have a coach that operates that way. A QB controversy is not created by a change in the starting QB. 90% of the time it is created by the MEDIA, and the rest of the time by the fans, as in Sonny vs. Billy. That was one of only a handfull of real "QB controversies" I have seen in 55 years of following the NFL. They are rare.

Don't sweat this QB competition, Daseal - Gibbs really does know what he is doing, and it will work out for the best. He knows both players and their skills/shortcomings MUCH better than any of us, and he is one of the best decision makers I have ever seen. There is no "perfect" coach, but he is damn close. Just be cool, sit back, and watch a great man in action. He brought an amazing amount of enjoyment to me (and many other Redskin fans) the last time around.

John Shaffer
National Fantasy Sports Leagues
Home of "The Best Game In Town" since 1990

I don't think it's all media hype. Quarterback controversy means there are two options at QB that can be choosen, and I am saying that it can have some bad chemistry on a team. I don't know how you can just blame this on the "media." I'm not saying we have fist fights in the locker room, but you'll have your team taking sides as to who they want starting. I think they can cause problems and hurt feelings. These guys are human, don't forget that. If you're doing your job and they bring in another guy to do it after you gave your all to a company, you might be a little put out too.

Is everyone ready for a shocker? I am in 100% agreement with Daseal.

For all his faults, Ramsey won his teammates over by standing in and being a man - took the hits, took the crap, didn't point fingers. They respect him and believe in him. While I was not a fan of his off season whine about wanting to be traded, I think he earned the right to say "It's my job - you have to take it from me." Everyone here pretty here much seems to be in agreement that it's Brunnell's job to lose. Well, why should that be? Didn't Ramsey take the hits? Didn't Ramsey say he needed to play better? Didn't Ramsey play injured?

If Ramsey's skills as a passer and qb are really less than those of Brunnell (including the experience factor), then let Brunell prove it. Given what he has done and, equally as important, HOW he has done it, this should be Ramsey's team.

If he's good enough - Brunnell should be the one who has to outshine Ramsey.

Don't get me wrong - while I really like Ramsey, I think the critiques of him are basically valid - slow delivery and recognition. How much of that was systematic and how much was inherent lack of ability only time will tell. Remember, Spurrier's system was very different than any other in the league and from most college programs (certainly from Tulane's shotgun offense). In the Spurrier system, QB's had an entirely different way of progressing through reads - through areas on the field rather than by route. Also, the QB was charged with recognizing the defense (a skill that takes most NFL QB's, even good ones, years to perfect) and calling the play at the line based on that recognition. Basically, Spurrier put the entire weight of the offense's success on the QB. I am not sure any young QB could succeed in it on an NFL level (maybe NO QB could). That Ramsey had any success in this system, I think, speaks volumes for his abilities.

I am hoping that Ramsey's failings were do more to the system than due to an inherent lack of ability. Regardless, until he is "shown up", I think the team (certainly the line) will resent the fact that he is being replaced.

Well put, JoeRedskin. I agree completely. I truly want to see what we have in Ramsey. But, like everyone else, I trust Coach Gibbs to make the right call.

[QUOTE=Daseal]I don't think it's all media hype. Quarterback controversy means there are two options at QB that can be choosen, and I am saying that it can have some bad chemistry on a team. I don't know how you can just blame this on the "media." I'm not saying we have fist fights in the locker room, but you'll have your team taking sides as to who they want starting. I think they can cause problems and hurt feelings. These guys are human, don't forget that. If you're doing your job and they bring in another guy to do it after you gave your all to a company, you might be a little put out too.[/QUOTE]

Daseal
QB controversy is bad when you have two terrible QB's and a losing team.
However, when you have two good QB's and a winning team, it is called depth. It is a good thing. The Redskins currently have the second scenario. Just because the QB you like is not the starter does not make it a QB controversy.
I just moved from Boston, after living there for the last five years.
The 2001 Pats won their first superbowl with Brady and Bledsoe on the same team. I can tell you most of Boston wanted Bledsoe to start during the Superbowl. Pat's coach had to actually anounce that Brady would start the SB. This after Brady got them there, and there were plenty of Pats fans that were upset that Bledsoe did not get the nod in the SB.
Even a poll taken after the the SB, it was 50-50 on who should start the next year. This after Brady won the Superbowl, so I understand your loyalty to Ramsey. None of this fan and media controversy prevented the Pats from winning two SB's.
I just think maybe your frustration over Ramsey not being named the starter and anger over the situation has clouded any chance for you to have an unbiased judgement on the QB issue. Every player on a losing team has to EARN their starting job. Especially one with a new coaching staff. This is not a playoff team and Ramsey is not a former probowl QB. All this talk of Ramsey "will be" a future MVP, probowl player, etc. is all talk. This has not happened yet. Ramsey is just an above average QB with a ton of potential.