Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

I meant to start a thread about this earlier because I just saw some of the interviews from people about it on TV.

Just to recap what I said in an earlier thread, I heard this interview from the Ultra Chickenhead Supreme from a bar in NJ who said and I quote: "Everybody fucking smokes. If you don't smoke, you're a fucking loser. Trust me. Everybody is grubbin' cigarettes."

I'm sure we have some smokers and non-smokers on here. I'm not a rabid anti-smoking guy, but I love the idea of being able to go to a bar and not reek of smoke. I mean it can be like when I was at college, the smokers had their own little "club" on the porches of the dorms. Let the "losers" who don't smoke have the inside of the bar and when people want a cigarette, why not walk outside?

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When I was in college all my friends smoked. I never did but I became desensitized to the smell of it on my clothes. But now that I'm around non-smokers again whenever we go to some bar or club that has smoking the worse thing (other than breathing in that lovely second-hand smoke) is having that stench on my clothes. Then it's even worse on your jacket. Because you have to keep wearing that jacket while that stench follows you around all week.

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Yup, I have this leather one that just pulls it in like crazy. I try REALLY hard to see the other side of this argument but I just can't see it.

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Normally my whole basis for arguments like this is who is incovenienced more by the other's persons rights.

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I didn't smoke for the first 24 years of my life and couple of years ago I picked up the habit. Then came the smoking ban here in Seattle, the new job and co-workers, and finally the realization that I went from maybe 5 ciggs a day to 12 a day. I quite 5 months ago and all I can say is good f'cking riddance.

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Nice, good to see some people who aren't rabidly PRO smoker's rights either. I'd love to hear the other side of the argument too, I'm just curious.

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I started smoking (cigarettes) when I was 14. I ended up moving to South America for a year and since everyone and their mother smoke down there, it became a huge habit for me. Long story short, I moved back home to the states and the first thing my mother did was send to me to the dentist because my teeth were literally dark brown. It was so embarrassing. To this day I don't smoke cigarettes (unless I'm super wasted).

I'd rather smoke something thats less harmful and at least gives you a nice buzz ;)

Malcolm, if you hate it here. Wait till you make your first trip overseas. I've heard that in Europe everyone smokes....I mean EVERYONE. I had my first hand experience in South America and let me tell you, kids down there start smoking much earlier than here.

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Oh, I don't hate it at all. I just think it would be awesome if bars banned it. Seriously I don't have a HUGE issue with it, just would "prefer" if it was banned in public areas.

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[QUOTE=Redskins_P]Malcolm, if you hate it here. Wait till you make your first trip overseas. I've heard that in Europe everyone smokes....I mean EVERYONE.[/QUOTE]

I went with my family to Spain several years ago and we wanted to sit in the non-smoking section of a restaurant there one night. They had no concept of "non-smoking section" Someone was smoking at every table. It was late at night and there were 10 of us and we were starving but my parents refused to sit with all that smoke around.

Eventually they put together a table for us in their only non-smoking section. We sat in the kitchen

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Oh, I don't hate it at all. I just think it would be awesome if bars banned it. Seriously I don't have a HUGE issue with it, just would "prefer" if it was banned in public areas.[/QUOTE]


I agree, and it does annoy me to. I hate the smell of it on my clothes.

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[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I went with my family to Spain several years ago and we wanted to sit in the non-smoking section of a restaurant there one night. They had no concept of "non-smoking section" Someone was smoking at every table. It was late at night and there were 10 of us and we were starving but my parents refused to sit with all that smoke around.

Eventually they put together a table for us in their only non-smoking section. We sat in the kitchen[/QUOTE]


LOL! I swear its the same way in SA. Question for you........how are the smoking laws in PR? I'm sure they're similar to the ones here.

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[QUOTE=Redskins_P]LOL! I swear its the same way in SA. Question for you........how are the smoking laws in PR? I'm sure they're similar to the ones here.[/QUOTE]

Effective next year smoking is banned in all restaurants, bars, and enclosed public places. Casino owners aren't too thrilled because they think they'll lose business to other Caribeean islands that allow smoking in their casinos.

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I smoked for about 6 years, started in college and quit back in '97. For a long time after I was just a social smoker if you will, only having a few if I was out drinking. Now I'm totally done with smoking.

I can see both sides of these new laws, but overall I tend to side with the non-smokers. It's so nice to be able to go out to a bar and not come home stinking of smoke.

The smokers want to say it's taking away their right... but when you have a habit that directly affects those around you, I can't have too much pity for you.

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[quote=TAFKAS]Effective next year smoking is banned in all restaurants, bars, and enclosed public places. Casino owners aren't too thrilled because they think they'll lose business to other Caribeean islands that allow smoking in their casinos.[/quote]

Speaking of casinos, when I went to Vegas the first few days there were rough until I got used to all the smoke. People smoke everywhere out there, it's ridiculous.

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i dont smoke and love going into bars that are non smoking.i dont mind people smoking,just the idiots that think because they are talking to me or someone in my group,that gives them the right to blow their smoke all over me

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[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]Oh, I don't hate it at all. I just think it would be awesome if bars banned it. Seriously I don't have a HUGE issue with it, just would "prefer" if it was banned in public areas.[/quote]

Ditto. Do it in your own home all you want, although I'd want someone with a small child to be responsible about it. In public places, because of the number of IRRESPONSIBLE and rude smokers, it needs to be banned. They had their chance and didn't make good with it.

I just wish they'd start enforcing littering laws on smokers. If I ate some chicken on a stick from the Chinese restaurant and tossed the stick out of my car when finished, I'd expect to hear sirens and a $500 deduction from my checking account. I didn't even light my trash on fire! :)

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Yup, same here. Littering laws are DEFINITELY not enforced on smokers. And yes I can see the other side's argument, but how can you seriously justify a habit that's been proving to be more damaging to others than yourself?

In that same story I quoted above, one girl was like, "Well they can just avoid us." Why should we have to go out of the way to accommodate your habit?

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[QUOTE=Redskins_P]....I've heard that in Europe everyone smokes....I mean EVERYONE. I had my first hand experience in South America and let me tell you, kids down there start smoking much earlier than here.[/QUOTE]

I was there last summer and let me tell you, people there smoke, a lot. I was shocked to see so many people smoking. Hell, when I arrived in Amsterdam airport I was impressed to see people smoking inside the airport as they walked about. I latter learned that it was illegal to smoke inside the airport but nobody gave a damn. Italy took the cake though, the streets were littered with cigarettes buds. You should have seen Saint Peter's Square!

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To me, the issue isn't about smokers rights vs. non-smokers rights. It's about private property rights.

If I started a restaurant, why should the government be in a position to decide for me whether I can or cannot allow smoking on my property?

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[quote=Beemnseven]To me, the issue isn't about smokers rights vs. non-smokers rights. It's about private property rights.

If I started a restaurant, why should the government be in a position to decide for me whether I can or cannot allow smoking on my property?[/quote]

Just because I own some land it doesn't mean I can set up shop and do whatever I want with it.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Just because I own some land it doesn't mean I can set up shop and do whatever I want with it.[/QUOTE]
The topic is not "whatever you want", it's smoking.

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I hate kissing a smoker...

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[quote=Beemnseven]To me, the issue isn't about smokers rights vs. non-smokers rights. It's about private property rights.

If I started a restaurant, why should the government be in a position to decide for me whether I can or cannot allow smoking on my property?[/quote]

Well, the government decides a lot of things you can do on business property, so why should smoking not be one of them?

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Just because I own some land it doesn't mean I can set up shop and do whatever I want with it.[/QUOTE]

Right. You cannot interfere with the rights of someone else. Apart from that, it's a free country -- at least, that's what it's [I]supposed[/I]to be.

[QUOTE=TheMalcomConnection]Well, the government decides a lot of things you can do on business property, so why should smoking not be one of them?[/QUOTE]

The short answer to your question is, why give the government one more reason to intrude into the lives of private property owners?

Now, here’s the long answer. As an example to your point Malcom, let’s use the Department of Health argument -- What's the difference between the government instituting food safety standards and doing the same with smoking?

The difference is that you can protect yourself from second hand smoke (if you're a non-smoker) and first-hand smoke (if you are a smoker): you can leave the restaurant, or you can quit. However, the same is not true of food-borne illnesses. In the latter case, the government is adhering to its legitimate purpose of protecting the rights of life, liberty and property of individuals through force or fraud. Since no one can protect themselves from the hazards of food-borne illnesses, short of not eating out, the government has the responsibility to guard against a threat that an individual otherwise cannot guard him or herself against.

Bottom line, government has the power and the obligation to protect your rights from others. It doesn’t have the power, nor the resources to protect you from yourself.

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Actually, you can really say the same thing for smoking. I think you're only thinking about the smokers, I'm talking about the non-smokers. Should the government not protect our health from smokers?

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the only thing i think girls hsould be able to smoke are poles. thats win-win baby.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Actually, you can really say the same thing for smoking. I think you're only thinking about the smokers, I'm talking about the non-smokers. Should the government not protect our health from smokers?[/QUOTE]

Again, isn't that something that non-smokers can do for themselves? I mean, if you're in a restaurant with 300 other people and they're all smoking and you're not, is it the government's role to bust in there and tell everyone to put out their cigarettes, or is it your responsibility to leave?

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well beemn, its not a majority vote type of thing i wouldnt think. i would think its a HEALTH thing.

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the bottom line question for me is, why should nonsmokers have to adapt to someone elses habit that hurts both people?

sorry to butt into the argument guys but i have to throw my two cents in

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[QUOTE=PWNED]well beemn, its not a majority vote type of thing i wouldnt think. i would think its a HEALTH thing ... the bottom line question for me is, why should nonsmokers have to adapt to someone elses habit that hurts both people?[/QUOTE]

My argument is they don't have to "adapt". Non-smokers can take matters of health into their own hands and leave a smoke-filled restaurant, and go to a non-smoking one.

According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be [B][I]no[/I][/B] restaurants that a smoker could go to. In a free country and in free markets, everyone has a choice.

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[QUOTE=Beemnseven]My argument they don't have to "adapt". Non-smokers can leave a smoke-filled restaurant, and go to a non-smoking restaurant.

According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be [B][I]no[/I][/B] restaurants that a smoker could go to.[/QUOTE]

No one says smokers can't go. Just don't smoke there.

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[quote=Beemnseven]According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be [B][I]no[/I][/B] restaurants that a smoker could go to.[/quote]

That's fine with me.

I was thinking of backing up my car to a bar or restaurant and just piping the exhaust right into it, hey, the non-exhaust enjoying people could just leave, right?

Let me enjoy my exhaust in peace.

:Smoker:

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[QUOTE=jamf]I hate kissing a smoker...[/QUOTE]

I ain't gonna lie, I'd hit a smoker :spank:

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[QUOTE=TAFKAS]No one says smokers can't go. Just don't smoke there.[/QUOTE]

My statement should have read, "there would be no restaurants a smoker could go to [B]and smoke[/B]."

Non-smokers don't have to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

My position is two-fold: the government should not be able to dictate that a private restauranteur cannot allow smoking, or loud music, or serve fatty foods, when no one is forced to go there. Secondly, one class of citizens should not be able to petition the government to outlaw the actions of another class of citizens when everyone has the choice to disassociate themselves from them or leave the premises.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72]That's fine with me.

I was thinking of backing up my car to a bar or restaurant and just piping the exhaust right into it, hey, the non-exhaust enjoying people could just leave, right?

Let me enjoy my exhaust in peace.

:Smoker:[/QUOTE]

Though your statement was in jest, (or maybe it wasn't) you cannot take that action upon someone else's property without their consent. You can certainly do it if the property belongs to you, though.

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[quote=Beemnseven]My statement should have read, "there would be no restaurants a smoker could go to [B]and smoke[/B]."

Non-smokers don't have to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

My position is two-fold: the government should not be able to dictate that a private restauranteur cannot allow smoking, or loud music, or serve fatty foods, when no one is forced to go there. Secondly, one class of citizens should not be able to petition the government to outlaw the actions of another class of citizens when everyone has the choice to disassociate themselves from them or leave the premises.[/quote]Very insightful, i never thought of it that way.

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[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Right. You cannot interfere with the rights of someone else. Apart from that, it's a free country -- at least, that's what it's [I]supposed[/I]to be.



The short answer to your question is, why give the government one more reason to intrude into the lives of private property owners?

Now, here’s the long answer. As an example to your point Malcom, let’s use the Department of Health argument -- What's the difference between the government instituting food safety standards and doing the same with smoking?

The difference is that you can protect yourself from second hand smoke (if you're a non-smoker) and first-hand smoke (if you are a smoker): you can leave the restaurant, or you can quit. However, the same is not true of food-borne illnesses. In the latter case, the government is adhering to its legitimate purpose of protecting the rights of life, liberty and property of individuals through force or fraud. Since no one can protect themselves from the hazards of food-borne illnesses, short of not eating out, the government has the responsibility to guard against a threat that an individual otherwise cannot guard him or herself against.

Bottom line, government has the power and the obligation to protect your rights from others. It doesn’t have the power, nor the resources to protect you from yourself.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.

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[QUOTE=saden1]When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.[/QUOTE]

For public establishments such as schools, post offices, court buildings -- in most cases, you're correct.

But for private businesses, there most certainly are property rights. The government cannot take over a business, instruct it as to what it can sell, or the fashion in which it sells it. The only exception for government intervention is when someone interferes with individual's rights to life, liberty, or property through force or fraud.

Now, certainly, an argument could be made that this country is gradually getting away from this particular free market philosophy with minimum wage laws, handicap access requirements, and civil rights legislation. Thanks to the Supreme Court's ruling in the Kelo [I]v.[/I] New London, Connecticut decision, there's yet another attack on private property rights that clearly marks this country's movement towards the Socialistic philosophy.

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[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]Well, the government decides a lot of things you can do on business property, so why should smoking not be one of them?[/quote]Ok, thats fine with me so from now on restaurants and bars have a one drink ( 1 beer, or 1 glass of wine,or 1oz of alch) per hour restriction. DUI's kill alot of people every year and alot are from people driving home from bars so now the goverment will regulate this too. People are dying from high blood presure and colesteral and red meat and fried food is to blame so its now against the law to sell red meats and fried foods. My point is that our goverment is taking more and more of our rights every day and if I own a bar and want smokers than thats my right. If I want a bar that is non smoking than that is my right. If the public demand is for non smoking smoking bars than there will be non smking bars. I see more and more non smoking bars everyday.

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[quote=saden1]When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.[/quote]Could you please give the part of the constitution which makes this ok.