Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Granted there's not much to grade from day 1... just one player Rocky McIntosh. But let's give him a grade anyway.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

like the player, hate the price... 3 GREAT players were at the 35 spot, plenty survived to 53 as well. we lock in to individual players and sell the farm for them.

If he's good, then its a lot more forgiveable, and recent day 1 picks have been pretty decent, so i'm not really worried about him sucking, its just hard to see the need to trade up so high for HIM specifically with the talent available at BOTH 35 and 53.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

just like college i never understood the no E in grading i think if one letter should stand for a word then all shoud

A=(over)achiever
B=better than a C
C=coulda done better
D=dumb luck that you passed
F=Failed to remember that E comes before F

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

for me, it's too early to grade him, since i didn't know much about him in college, and i dunno how he's gonna do in teh nfl. In 3 years i'll grade him.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Call it blind faith, but when I see the coaching staff get locked into a guy and go all out to get him, I get really excited. Gibbs and company have earned that blind faith if you ask me, they've been great with Day 1 picks. Taylor, Rogers, Cooley, Campbell (jury still out).

I love it. I'm very excited. I voted A.

I'd like to add (That Guy, please don't take offense) that all of the draft ratings and all that nonsense that people get so wrapped up in is just bogus. I don't care what Scouts.com says about a guy, or Mel Kiper, or whatever. If the player is someone that Joe Gibbs and Gregg Williams are excited about, then I tend to follow suit.

Not sure whether that makes me a homer or if it means that I simply tend to defer to some of the best football coaches in the game.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Well, he would have to be one hell of a player to justify the price for him.

But he doesn't have to be that great to satisfy me...I'll give it a B.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Seriously tho, our front office needs to learn how to negotiate. I tire of the many times when the initial offer is far more than the other party could ever have dreamed of...c'mon guys you are supposed to start on the other extreme.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]all of the draft ratings and all that nonsense that people get so wrapped up in is just bogus. I don't care what Scouts.com says about a guy, or Mel Kiper, or whatever. If the player is someone that Joe Gibbs and Gregg Williams are excited about, then I tend to follow suit.

Not sure whether that makes me a homer or if it means that I simply tend to defer to some of the best football coaches in the game.[/quote]

question, before today, would you rather have jimmy williams or mcintosh?

we don't have a need at OT or WR, even though those players are great too (jackson/justice), but if you'd have passed on williams for mcintosh last week, everyone would say you're nuts. (just move him to safety and turn archuleta into a linebacker :P)

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=GTripp0012]Seriously tho, our front office needs to learn how to negotiate. I tire of the many times when the initial offer is far more than the other party could ever have dreamed of...c'mon guys you are supposed to start on the other extreme.[/quote]

Are you on the other side of the negotiating table?

How are you so sure that the "initial offer is far more than the other party could ever have dreamed of"??

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]question, before today, would you rather have jimmy williams or mcintosh?

we don't have a need at OT or WR, even though those players are great too (jackson/justice), but if you'd have passed on williams for mcintosh last week, everyone would say you're nuts. (just move him to safety and turn archuleta into a linebacker :P)[/quote]

For someone who knows so much about the draft, this is a pretty crazy statement to make. You want to move a 6-foot, 220 pound player to linebacker? That's not going to work, he'll get eaten alive by even the most benign blocking TEs.

Here's what I think is happening. A lot of us spend countless hours doing draft research and reading up and becoming experts on the draft. But when it comes down to it, we don't know 1% of what Gibbs and Williams know about the NFL. I'm sorry, no matter how good you think you are, you don't know jack in the grand scheme.

None of us are watching film and breaking it down, none of us are attending games and scouting, none of us are interviewing the players. We get all the info second-hand and act like we might be able to make an informed decision. It's just pointless. We can't. It's a large waste of time.

You can't say Jimmy Williams would be any better than Rocky McIntosh without simply repeating a bunch of information you found on the internet. It's basic regurgitation and it's meaningless. All I know is Gibbs and Williams wanted him, and that to me says a lot. I guess we'll find out in the coming years.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Are you on the other side of the negotiating table?
[/quote]No, but if I was (for some strange reason), I would want to negotiate with the Redskins.

We frequently lose value in trades. It's not going to hurt us in the near future, just the distant future.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Like the pick, hate the price.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]For someone who knows so much about the draft, this is a pretty crazy statement to make. You want to move a 6-foot, 220 pound player to linebacker? That's not going to work, he'll get eaten alive by even the most benign blocking TEs.

Here's what I think is happening. A lot of us spend countless hours doing draft research and reading up and becoming experts on the draft. But when it comes down to it, we don't know 1% of what Gibbs and Williams know about the NFL. I'm sorry, no matter how good you think you are, you don't know jack in the grand scheme.

None of us are watching film and breaking it down, none of us are attending games and scouting, none of us are interviewing the players. We get all the info second-hand and act like we might be able to make an informed decision. It's just pointless. We can't. It's a large waste of time.

You can't say Jimmy Williams would be any better than Rocky McIntosh without simply repeating a bunch of information you found on the internet. It's basic regurgitation and it's meaningless. All I know is Gibbs and Williams wanted him, and that to me says a lot. I guess we'll find out in the coming years.[/quote]

so why do you even bother coming to this forum or sprouting any kind of opinion, since it's pointless? and apparently you missed the joke.

seriously, you want me to call you an idiot every time you post any opinion at all? I think its smart to maximize talent instead of locking on one player, you don't, that's fine. but it seems more like post-draft justification and zombie-like homerism than actual analysis.


remember desmond howard? remember guys like jeff george? sometimes the teams DO make mistakes, you're acting like they're somehow infallible or that its not human beings making these decisions.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]so why do you even bother coming to this forum or sprouting any kind of opinion, since it's pointless? and apparently you missed the joke.

seriously, you want me to call you an idiot every time you post any opinion at all? I think its smart to maximize talent instead of locking on one player, you don't, that's fine. but it seems more like post-draft justification and zombie-like homerism than [B]actual analysis[/B].[/quote]

The mere notion that you believe anyone on this site can offer worthy insight or "actual analysis" is laughable to me. When it comes to projecting prospects, the most knowledgable sportswriters in the game are often WAY off. Hell, a lot of coaches and GMs are often WAY off. The fact is we just don't know who's going to be good and who's not.

I also never called you an idiot. I hope you didn't think I did. I think you are smart and know a ton about college prospects. I'm just questioning the purpose behind all that research. I find it fruitless, that's all.

I just find the second-guessing of Gibbs' draft moves kind of funny, that's all. Does anyone really think they can challenge Gibbs' picks based on what they read on the internet? Pffft. He'd laugh at us if we did that.

That's just my philosophy on the whole subject. I do think it's fun to think about and give our opinions just for fun, but the second we start thinking we actually know something about these players is when we get too big for our britches. So I'll give my opinion on Jimmy Williams. I think he has character issues, I read that on the internet. So I can see why Gibbs went with Rocky.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]For someone who knows so much about the draft, this is a pretty crazy statement to make. You want to move a 6-foot, 220 pound player to linebacker? That's not going to work, he'll get eaten alive by even the most benign blocking TEs.

Here's what I think is happening. A lot of us spend countless hours doing draft research and reading up and becoming experts on the draft. But when it comes down to it, we don't know 1% of what Gibbs and Williams know about the NFL. I'm sorry, no matter how good you think you are, you don't know jack in the grand scheme.

None of us are watching film and breaking it down, none of us are attending games and scouting, none of us are interviewing the players. We get all the info second-hand and act like we might be able to make an informed decision. It's just pointless. We can't. It's a large waste of time.

You can't say Jimmy Williams would be any better than Rocky McIntosh without simply repeating a bunch of information you found on the internet. It's basic regurgitation and it's meaningless. All I know is Gibbs and Williams wanted him, and that to me says a lot. I guess we'll find out in the coming years.[/QUOTE]



You said it all right here Schneed and what you say is true. Too many times we get caught up in the pre-draft hype from people we all have already admitted know very little about players or the game of football. They get paid for delivering hype and that's all it is. I was thrilled at the suspence surrounding the prospect of who we might take with 53 contrary to previous years when the whole world would know our slightest intentions. It's good to see Gibbs & Co. are determined not to let the media or the fans pick his team

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]The mere notion that you believe anyone on this site can offer worthy insight or "actual analysis" is laughable to me. When it comes to projecting prospects, the most knowledgable sportswriters in the game are often WAY off. Hell, a lot of coaches and GMs are often WAY off. The fact is we just don't know who's going to be good and who's not.

I also never called you an idiot. I hope you didn't think I did. I think you are smart and know a ton about college prospects. I'm just questioning the purpose behind all that research. I find it fruitless, that's all.

I just find the second-guessing of Gibbs' draft moves kind of funny, that's all. Does anyone really think they can challenge Gibbs' picks based on what they read on the internet? Pffft. He'd laugh at us if we did that.

That's just my philosophy on the whole subject. I do think it's fun to think about and give our opinions just for fun, but the second we start thinking we actually know something about these players is when we get too big for our britches. So I'll give my opinion on Jimmy Williams. I think he has character issues, I read that on the internet. So I can see why Gibbs went with Rocky.[/quote]

you said yourselt a lot of GMs and team are off... if you're really that opposed to people having opinions about it, please don't waste your time reading the threads and write long posts about how its pointless. the skins are infallible line is stupid. wtf do we have forums or even need to watch or discuss the games then? if gibbs is never wrong, why don't we win the superbowl every year?

you have no opinion until its all said and done, and at that point your opinion is that anyone with an opinion is wasting their time, and proceed to waste both your time and theirs writing about what a waste of time it is, even though this is a FORUM, for OPINIONS and DISCUSSION.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Longtimefan]You said it all right here Schneed and what you say is true. Too many times we get caught up in the pre-draft hype from people we all have already admitted know very little about players or the game of football. They get paid for delivering hype and that's all it is. I was thrilled at the suspence surrounding the prospect of who we might take with 53 contrary to previous years when the whole world would know our slightest intentions. It's good to see Gibbs & Co. are determined not to let the media or the fans pick his team[/quote]

kiper and many mocks had us taking mcintosh for 3 weeks... out of the 7 guys brought into redskin park with 1st or 2nd round grades, mcintosh was the only one likely to fall to us at that pick.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]you said yourselt a lot of GMs and team are off... if you're really that opposed to people having opinions about it, please don't waste your time reading the threads and write long posts about how its pointless. the skins are infallible line is stupid. wtf do we have forums or even need to watch or discuss the games then? if gibbs is never wrong, why don't we win the superbowl every year?

you have no opinion until its all said and done, and at that point your opinion is that anyone with an opinion is wasting their time, and proceed to waste both your time and theirs writing about what a waste of time it is, even though this is a FORUM, for OPINIONS and DISCUSSION.[/quote]

I'll clarify myself. I have no problem with the opinions. I like that we're expressing them and talking about the team's moves. What I do have a problem with is when certain people on this board start to think they really know something.

All I'm intending to do here is provide a reality check. You might think you know these prospects. But in the end none of us know better than the coaches.

Sure we can discuss it and argue it. It's pointless and meaningless to do so, but if it's fun for us then by all means let's talk about it. As long as we realize it's just for fun, and that we really have no clue.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]kiper and many mocks had us taking mcintosh for 3 weeks... out of the 7 guys brought into redskin park with 1st or 2nd round grades, mcintosh was the only one likely to fall to us at that pick.[/quote]

Now i know Gibbs isnt the only one involved in the choice, but I do feel that he may have just been insecure about the 53rd pick. Gibbs in general is that kinda guy, who always wants to make sure, and maybe he was ok with losing a second round next year, not to take a risk, and just to get Rocky for sure.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Williams' skills can't be denied. He runs a 4.36 and is over 6 feet and 209 pounds. He's a ballhawk. He's actually one of the players that I have seen and I think he's a stud.

But, given our needs, I don't mind skipping out on Williams for McIntosh.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]kiper and many mocks had us taking mcintosh for 3 weeks... out of the 7 guys brought into redskin park with 1st or 2nd round grades, mcintosh was the only one likely to fall to us at that pick.[/QUOTE]


However the FO obviously wasn't sure he would still be there at 53 that's why they made the decision to move up. There's eighteen other teams between to two slots, and with that many selections anything can happen. I like the move, give the guy a chance and not run him out of town before he puts the uniform on.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Longtimefan]However the FO obviously wasn't sure he would still be there at 53 that's why they made the decision to move up. There's eighteen other teams between to two slots, and with that many selections anything can happen. I like the move, give the guy a chance and not run him out of town before he puts the uniform on.[/quote]

i've never said ANYTHING bad about the player. i have no problems with him unless he starts stinking it up.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]
All I'm intending to do here is provide a reality check. You might think you know these prospects. But in the end none of us know better than the coaches.[/quote]

coaches can also make mistakes... I get that they have more information (I would too if i had 20+ scouts working for me), but it comes across as if you think, just because someone has a title, they become infallible in every way.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]coaches can also make mistakes... I get that they have more information (I would too if i had 20+ scouts working for me), but it comes across as if you think, just because someone has a title, they become infallible in every way.[/quote]

No they're not infallible. I don't mean to suggest that. But to think that anyone here is qualified to critcize their decisions before even seeing the player put on a uniform is ridiculous. We just have to wait and see.

Then if McIntosh sucks, then we all get to say gee that was dumb. There's nothing wrong with [B]questioning[/B] the move, But considering the success on first-day picks so far in Gibbs' second term, I'd say we have to hold off on [B]criticizing[/B].

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]For someone who knows so much about the draft, this is a pretty crazy statement to make. You want to move a 6-foot, 220 pound player to linebacker? That's not going to work, he'll get eaten alive by even the most benign blocking TEs.

Here's what I think is happening. A lot of us spend countless hours doing draft research and reading up and becoming experts on the draft. But when it comes down to it, we don't know 1% of what Gibbs and Williams know about the NFL. I'm sorry, no matter how good you think you are, you don't know jack in the grand scheme.

None of us are watching film and breaking it down, none of us are attending games and scouting, none of us are interviewing the players. We get all the info second-hand and act like we might be able to make an informed decision. It's just pointless. We can't. It's a large waste of time.

You can't say Jimmy Williams would be any better than Rocky McIntosh without simply repeating a bunch of information you found on the internet. It's basic regurgitation and it's meaningless. All I know is Gibbs and Williams wanted him, and that to me says a lot. I guess we'll find out in the coming years.[/QUOTE]
I agree, also he seems to be really smart so that's what GW and Gibbs have to have in a LB. He's had great competition playing for the U and will bring that pride to the field. He can play strong or weak side and in pass coverage. He has other Hurricanes to mentor him and he'll be well prepared with our coaches. Dale Lindsay just couldn't get along with LaVar but he seems to love our other LBs. We'll see how good this kid really is, but I'll take any LB from the U.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

I didn't like giving up next years #2. But if he works out and is a starter the trade is a big win! We will have to see. One thing you have to say that Gibbs and company wanted something they go after it!!! If they feel The U LB is that good who am I to question! Now lets hit a home run in a late round pick and this will be a great off season!!!

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

i was pulling for mcintosh and love all the players the skins are plucking from the U.the m.o. of our front office is if there is a player on the radar that the skins want,one way or another they will end up in washington.i loved the stat yesterday that since 2000,the skins have the fewest players drafted.look at our roster now,ans compared to 3 seasons ago,the talent level went thru the roof and we are a fairly young team.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

I give him a big INC (incomplete)

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

I gave it an A. I didnt think he would be there at 53 and wanted us to get Orien Harris at 53. I didnt like what LBs I thought would still be there, and DT is our next need in my opinion. But Imhappy we moved up and got him.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

This is not a Rocky grade, it's truly a FO grade. Did we make the POs last year with our host of FAs and paucity of draft picks? Yes
Will we do it again? Yes

Rocky has nothing to do with the philosophy of going for young, proven FAs in the offseason. I say the FO gets a grade of B+ - A- for the results last year. Solid A when the two amazing wins over the Cowboys are factored in.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

I would have graded him an "I" for Incomplete. Just don't know enough to evaluate McIntosh or the price we paid for him.

I'm willing to give him benefit of the doubt.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Schneed -- The great thing abouit the draft is normal fans like us can look at a player, see something we love about it, get high on him (even though others may not be) and both sides have an equal chance of being right. I feel every player (just about) through the 3rd round can be a quality starter in this league if they're put into a situation that fits them. Can't fit a square peg into a round hole, and some teams try to do that.

Granted, coaches have more resources available to them, but this would be a boring chat board if everyone here sat around sucking Gibbs off.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Daseal]this would be a boring chat board if everyone here sat around sucking Gibbs off.[/quote]

Good lord...what a horrible, horrible disturbing awful thought. [shudder]

:vomit:

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

I love the pick, but the trade was not so good. It seemed like a very steep price to pay. They basically spent two #2 picks for Rocky.

The problem the Redskins always run into is that they are always trading future draft picks and future draft picks are not worth as much. If they had a full compliment of picks yesterday they could have traded from those to get up there.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]...But considering the success on first-day picks so far in Gibbs' second term, I'd say we have to hold off on [B]criticizing[/B].[/quote]

You mean like Jason Campbell? We spent a ton to trade up into the first round and draft a guy who will be competing for the backup position in his second year.

As for the move to get Rocky, I think the price was too high. The very next pick New England moved up almost as many spots and it only cost them a low third round pick this year to do it. I don't think it was worth next year's #2 and this year's 6th to move that high up for him. Of course, if he really does end up being a solid starter, we've filled a major area of need and the price wouldn't seem too bad. Only time will tell.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Is Danny really the man behind the curtain of the Jets organization?

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]Call it blind faith, but when I see the coaching staff get locked into a guy and go all out to get him, I get really excited. Gibbs and company have earned that blind faith if you ask me, they've been great with Day 1 picks. Taylor, Rogers, Cooley, Campbell (jury still out).

I love it. I'm very excited. I voted A.

I'd like to add (That Guy, please don't take offense) that all of the draft ratings and all that nonsense that people get so wrapped up in is just bogus. I don't care what Scouts.com says about a guy, or Mel Kiper, or whatever. If the player is someone that Joe Gibbs and Gregg Williams are excited about, then I tend to follow suit.

Not sure whether that makes me a homer or if it means that I simply tend to defer to some of the best football coaches in the game.[/quote]

I have to agree that all the players that gibbs and supporting cast has targeted have turned out to be great picks. I think giving up a 2nd round choice next year to move up may be a lot to give up, but depending on how you look at it - it may be worth it. It's a real good sign to me that they were targeting him in the first place.

I think they didn't want to take the risk of having some other team pick him up. To me, 18 picks (35 to 53) might have been too much of gamble to assume that some other team didn't rate him as high as the redskins. Especially the run on lbs before the 35th pick. Gibbs looks like he went with his instincts on this move and I think his instincts are one of the major differences between him (a great legendary coach) and good coaches. Now he is applying those instincts on the personnel arena.

We will probably never know if some other team would have picked up McIntosh, but at least the redskins are not kicking themselves today for not making the move to pick up the one player that they really felt good about and letting someone else get him. It looks like to me that they are making all the right moves with their weaknesses - taking the steps to turn their weaknesses into strengths.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

Celts32,

"Whether we selected him at #53 or #35 our next pick would have been a 5th rounder.

Again here is the draft breakdown vs. NFLdraftblitz.com's value chart


Quote:
Pick #35 550 points
Pick #53 370 points

That is a difference of 180 points

If you value next year's second as a third at the same position you are picking this year that is pick #85 which equals 165 points

This year's 6th (189) is 16.8 points

We gave up a total of 551.8 draft value points for a pick worth 550 draft value points. That is about as even as you can get and we got a player at a need position for us that can start right away.



McIntosh was listed in the top 40 players by many scouts and with Thomas Howard going at #38, a player rated lower then McIntosh, Rocky would have been gone at #53, and probably Howard as well as there is a big drop off in talent at LBer after him.

This was a great pick at a position of great need and a great trade to get him."

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=12336&page=2[/url]

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]question, before today, would you rather have jimmy williams or mcintosh?

we don't have a need at OT or WR, even though those players are great too (jackson/justice), but if you'd have passed on williams for mcintosh last week, everyone would say you're nuts. (just move him to safety and turn archuleta into a linebacker :P)[/quote]I see your point. But you have to consider how we would address our hole at LB in the 5th or later rounds after we drafted J Williams. We needed a top five LB prospect and not one from the consensus scouts' list. If Greenway, DQ, or Carpenter fell out of the first, that would have opened up another avenue to make a decision on.

Re: Grade Rocky McIntosh
 

And by the way, I feel like some of you: damn, I wish we didn't give up another high pick next year. But I can at least take some comfort in justifying that what we have given up (with cap space, player/draft trades) has gotten us some great returns (of investment).