Has Bugel lost it?
 

I don't know what you guys think but I'm seriously concerned that Bugel has had 3 offseasons now to find and develop some decent young offensive line guys and appears to have failed miserably.

I keep hearing that everybody is happy with the back-ups but I've yet to see anything on the field to suggest that anybody can step in without a significant drop-off in performance.

Am I being too hasty?
Am I putting too much blame on Bugel?

I know good offensive linemen don't grow on trees but I hoped for better than what we seem to have at the moment.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Are you not happy with the development of Dockery, and the re-emergence of Samuels? Bugel has something to do with that.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

It is blaphemous to down talk Bugel but everyone ought to be evaluated. I dont even know how to evaluate GWilliams half the time. Bugel is credited and loved by me. I think over the years the well became dry and the need to uprgrade other immediate areas was the focus. Draft management was a trade off to getting guys in here behind any role position. Obviously I think OL/CB should be drafted hard next year. On the O-Line backups are needed for sure even beyond this season as some guys are aging. I would think with the team assembled that would be luring enough but good lines are hard to find.

Yes, Dockery is a product of that, Ray Brown retiring was big, Raymer's inability hurt us. Seems we only took a step backwards was starting over with younger inexperienced guys. Alot seemed to do with lack of FA options this year.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

I was actually wondering about Bugel this morning. I recall reading that Dockery had lost something like 25 pounds, making him more fleet footed for Saunders' offense. But that doesn't really jibe with Bugel's Hogs mentality does it?

I don't think he's lost it, I'm just wondering how "influential" he still is. I imagine he is to an extent because he's like Gibbs' confidant.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Let's see...

We had a franchise record for a RB last year, much of which is on the offensive line.

We had a QB who has had health concerns for the past few years stay upright most of the season, thanks to his offensive line.

I'm OK with Buges.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Buges has raved about Dockery ("He's something special"), Molinaro, and Wilson. The latter two are finished, and Dockery has not been stellar.

The man certainly knows his football, (and will perform fellatio on Gibbs, if asked to) - he is light years better than Kim Helton, but, I personally have been less than impressed.

If I had to grade position coaches on our staff (based on seniority), he would get a lower grade than Greg Blache who is his equivalent on the staff.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Different time now. Gibbs and Co. used to stash starter level players on IR and in backup roles because they could. Nowadays it is difficult to keep good players as backups and you are seeing the product. You seem amazed that when a first stringer goes down that there is a dropoff in the level of play with the next player. I would think that it would be obvious that the backups aren't as good.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Our starting o-line is a top 5 o-line. A few short years ago our o-line was beyond horrible. It is a amazing what the coaches have done and they don't get enough credit. Our team has been changing for the better every year. From gibbs' first draft with 2 amazing players, sean and cooley, to picking santana and getting rid of WRs who have done nothing since leaving here. Last year we were complaining about how we didn't "have a true number 1 WR". Now we are among the top 7 in WR groups.

Bugel has made all of the players play to their potential. Samuels and thomas played at pro bowl levels last year. Dockery has taken huge strides and I am sure jansen will get better but the year he was injured may have hurt his development with bugel. As for dockery losing pounds and this not being like the old hogs, i can't speak of the hogs because i never saw them in action. However, Bugel is allowing his guys to fit this new offense and that is great. He can break from what he knows to hope for something better. Gibbs gave up play calling duties only after changing his offense the second year and putting in the shotgun and changing blocking schemes. Gibbs knows that change isn't something bad. These coaches are great because they don't have big egos that don't allow for change.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

What do you know? You're only 18.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=BigSKINBauer;204691]Our starting o-line is a top 5 o-line. A few short years ago our o-line was beyond horrible. It is a amazing what the coaches have done and they don't get enough credit. Our team has been changing for the better every year. From gibbs' first draft with 2 amazing players, sean and cooley, to picking santana and getting rid of WRs who have done nothing since leaving here. Last year we were complaining about how we didn't "have a true number 1 WR". Now we are among the top 7 in WR groups.

Bugel has made all of the players play to their potential. Samuels and thomas played at pro bowl levels last year. Dockery has taken huge strides and I am sure jansen will get better but the year he was injured may have hurt his development with bugel. As for dockery losing pounds and this not being like the old hogs, i can't speak of the hogs because i never saw them in action. However, Bugel is allowing his guys to fit this new offense and that is great. He can break from what he knows to hope for something better. Gibbs gave up play calling duties only after changing his offense the second year and putting in the shotgun and changing blocking schemes. Gibbs knows that change isn't something bad. These coaches are great because they don't have big egos that don't allow for change.[/quote]

You are wise in your youth. Be sure you learn about the hogs and dont lose that. That is wild how this time last year WR was so vital and look at it now, same with the O-Line the sacks/penalties but now they are better and with Jansen having opposable thumbs this year who knows how great things will happen.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

meast i'm liking the name.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=Meast;204697]What do you know? You're only 18.[/quote]


Hey Meast... Dynamite first post but thats not how we operate guy.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=MightyJoeGibbs;204702]Hey Meast... Dynamite first post but thats not how we operate guy.[/quote]
thanks for the defense but i think he was joking seeing he is 19. But maybe not. Maybe he went after the BSB. Oh no.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

jk,
I agreed with him

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=MightyJoeGibbs;204699]You are wise in your youth. Be sure you learn about the hogs and dont lose that. That is wild how this time last year WR was so vital and look at it now, same with the O-Line the sacks/penalties but now they are better and with Jansen having opposable thumbs this year who knows how great things will happen.[/quote]
Thanks. I will definately try and see more stuff about the hogs. I still do wish i could remember one superbowl. I was like 3 in 91 season. I do see a great year from jansen though. Our O-line is getting better and better. People have to remember raymer. That thing was the worst center in the league. Now we get rabach and a year together and jansen with a year under bugez too. Thomas, Samuels, and Dockery all looked better their second year playing for bugel and i think jansen and rabach will too. Now lets pray for no injuries.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

All I remember from that bowl is getting messed with by my huge sloppy drunk uncle

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Good points about the O line helping get Portis his 1500 and keeping Brunnell healthy. I think some of the credit for that needs to go to Moss. Year before last we basically had no vertical game and defenses were always stacking the line against us making it more difficult for CP. Plus, Brunnell was mediocre at best that year.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=hurrykaine;204688]Buges has raved about Dockery ("He's something special"), Molinaro, and Wilson. The latter two are finished, and Dockery has not been stellar.

The man certainly knows his football, (and will perform fellatio on Gibbs, if asked to) - he is light years better than Kim Helton, but, I personally have been less than impressed.

If I had to grade position coaches on our staff (based on seniority), he would get a lower grade than Greg Blache who is his equivalent on the staff.[/quote]

I think that Dock looks good. He was hustling on that fumble against Philly last year and he started to crush would be tacklers as well.

I would also consider the props that national media members are giving are line this year. They have no reason to give credit if it isn't deserved. I even heard it this morning on Fox Sports Radio.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=Meast;204707]All I remember from that bowl is getting messed with by my huge sloppy drunk uncle[/quote]

[url=http://www.childhelpusa.org/]Home - Childhelp[/url]

Remember, its not your fault.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Thanks for the replies guys.

I think we're all happy with our starting 5.

Perhaps I was expecting too much from Wilson and Molinaro. Still disappointing to see Wilson gone and Molinaro not trusted enough to be put in when Randy Thomas went down though.

Hopefully there is a diamond in the rough hiding somewhere on the roster.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=davy;204715]Thanks for the replies guys.

I think we're all happy with our starting 5.

Perhaps I was expecting too much from Wilson and Molinaro. Still disappointing to see Wilson gone and Molinaro not trusted enough to be put in when Randy Thomas went down though.

Hopefully there is a diamond in the rough hiding somewhere on the roster.[/quote]
how many times do i have to tell people that molinaro is a tackle, hes not a guard

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Our starting o-line is up there w/the best, as others have said.
As far as Buges evaluating talent, does anyone know here how much influence he has in the draft picks? Gibbs is team president, but I'm sure he listens to buges on o-line prospects.
The draft is a crap shoot in the late rounds sometimes. If Wilson & Molinaro were great picks maybe we wouldn't be discussing this.
Its great that Dock has lost weight, he's got to pull & get out on screens & he was up to 360 or so. If he's lost weight and added muscle he'll be a beast. And its a contract year for him, so watch out.
Our backup situation is scary, but I don't know who to blame.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;204719]how many times do i have to tell people that molinaro is a tackle, hes not a guard[/QUOTE]

I know he's a tackle!

You would still hope he could have done a better job than human turnstile Corey Raymer!

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=steveo395;204719]how many times do i have to tell people that molinaro is a tackle, hes not a guard[/quote]

Typically tackles can play the guard spot fairly easily.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Dock has trimmed down. I don’t remember where I heard it but he slimmed up about 20 pounds. This should make him quicker. Bugel doesn't just want piles of fat in front of Gibbs's stars. He demands his guys to play with agility. I think the slow development of our twos shouldn't fall square on his shoulders. I know Wilson is gone, but Molinaro is still here. I haven't studied any tape, but I think he would be alright if god forbids he had to play. Plus this year they tried to draft guys who could play all three line positions. Just like the Hogs. Most of those guys lined up at least two different positions during their careers.

I think we will be fine, and as long as he is here for another year or two he will uncover the right men capable of the job.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[QUOTE=davy;204678]I don't know what you guys think but I'm seriously concerned that Bugel has had 3 offseasons now to find and develop some decent young offensive line guys and appears to have failed miserably.

I keep hearing that everybody is happy with the back-ups but I've yet to see anything on the field to suggest that anybody can step in without a significant drop-off in performance.

Am I being too hasty?
Am I putting too much blame on Bugel?

I know good offensive linemen don't grow on trees but I hoped for better than what we seem to have at the moment.[/QUOTE]


It could be that you are being a little too hasty, and you are right when you say good linemen don't grow on trees. We can't expect to have OL men in backup positions with all the capabilities of starters because if they did they would be starters. Back-up OL men are like relief pitchers in baseball they don't have 100 plus pitches in their arms. We probably have enough depth as long as all our starters are not out at the same time, So far we've only seen the back-up's all playing together not replacing an individual starter who may go down, so I'm going to hold serve on the back-up OL until I see them perform under different circumstances. I have the utmost confidence in Bugel, he and Jim Hannifan were the best two to ever come through here.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

I remember hearing that Dock slimmed down to allow him to pull and move better in Saunders offense (sorry--can't remember where I heard it. Maybe DOck talking to Larry Michaels on skins.com?).

The o-line is one of the team's strenghts, IMO. But look--Wilson and Molinaro were 6th rounders. Not everyone is Joe Jacoby. We'll see, because no doubt one or more backup guys are going to see action in regular games this year--it's the nature of the business. I have faith in Buges. But it's Saunders offense now, not Gibbs. The blocking schemes are different, so it'll take some time. We've only had ONE PRESEASON GAME, folks!

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;204735]Typically tackles can play the guard spot fairly easily.[/quote]Not without first practicing the position. Usually if you have the skill set to play tackle, you can play guard. Still, they are very different positions.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Bugel has proven he knows what to do with talent, and how does anyone know if there is a problem right now with our starters? But we defiently have a problem with thier backups, and a lot of that stems from the fact that somehow we believe that you can draft quality linemen in rd's 5 through 7, we have thrown away to many early round draft picks where that depth could have been built, so we are left with players who have size but no ability to perform at the NFL level. Bugel just coaches them he doesn't draft them, it's not his fault.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[QUOTE=davy;204678]I don't know what you guys think but I'm seriously concerned that Bugel has had 3 offseasons now to find and develop some decent young offensive line guys and appears to have failed miserably.

I keep hearing that everybody is happy with the back-ups but I've yet to see anything on the field to suggest that anybody can step in without a significant drop-off in performance.

Am I being too hasty?
Am I putting too much blame on Bugel?

I know good offensive linemen don't grow on trees but I hoped for better than what we seem to have at the moment.[/QUOTE]


Davy: Expressing concern that we've failed miserably. See last year's 10-6 (11 if you count the PO win) record. That is not failure.

Davy: Has Buges lost it? No

Davy: Is there a drop-off in performance in back-ups? Yes, of course, that's why they back-up!

Davy: Am I being too hasty? No. As this thread has said, just look at CPs production last year, and our QB stood in there most of the time.

Davy: Am I putting too much blame on Bugel? Probably. A Joe Jacoby comes around maybe only once in life. (I saw Gibbs V1, and the original Hogs since I'm old!) Now, all 32 NFL teams scouting departments have "Joe Jacoby" on their radar and are searching him out.

It starts with the FO finding and signing the talent. HOF Coach Gibbs, and Coach Saunders have to get the offensive concept into their heads. Coach Bugel has to coach "away" old habits, and instill better techniques for the player to perform in those offensive concepts. The player and those around him then have to have the heart and skill to produce. A lot of those variables Coach Bugel doesn't have control over. It's kind of like the old Basketball addage: "You can't teach height!". It's like that in FB as well.


Davy: I hoped for better.

I hoped for better as well, but it takes a commodity we call "time". I was satisfied with the results last year, and I expect even better this year.

Davy: Expressing concern over the "moment". What??? Why worry? It's one PS practice game! We've got sixteen "real" weeks, and a couple more practice games. That my friend is the "time".

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

Buges is still one of the best O-line coaches in the game. he has taken a confidence stricken, technique lacking o line and brought back the confidence we use to see back in the day. He is a motivator, those guys will run through fire for him. Plus the improvement of Dockery is a tribute to Buges. As far as backups, I think Molinaro is the only one on the team that he has coached. Most of the backups are new because the ones that were here when he got here stunk.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=offiss;204756]Bugel has proven he knows what to do with talent, and how does anyone know if there is a problem right now with our starters? But we defiently have a problem with thier backups, and a lot of that stems from the fact that somehow we believe that you can draft quality linemen in rd's 5 through 7, we have thrown away to many early round draft picks where that depth could have been built, so we are left with players who have size but no ability to perform at the NFL level. Bugel just coaches them he doesn't draft them, it's not his fault.[/quote]

First off, you are right...it's not Bugels fault we don't have depth at the O-line, it's the NFLPA's fault for instituting free agency. You can't do what Gibbs and Buges did in the 80's anymore, which is stock starter quality backup talent on your team by throwing money around and putting a guy on the practice squad who would be a starter elsewhere. Today, quality players will get paid like quality players and the salary cap means you have one of two choices...1) Stock really good starters and mediocre back-ups ala the Redskins, or 2) Stock better than average but not great starters, and better than average back-ups, ala the Patriots and Eagles. Obviously the second option worked for the Pats, (and only the pats), but it's not the strategy employed here, nor most teams in the league. Now, if I were given the choice of a single position I would splurge on, it would't be WR's as the skins have done, I would not have picked up ARE, and instead picked up two quality G/Ts instead. Of course I don't own the team, nor do I have three rings to my credit, so take that for what it's worth.

Second point is that when guys refer to the "Hogs" you have to remember that these guys were considered huge for their day, but would probably be the lightest line in the league by today's standards. Grimm and Butz were barely cracking 300 lbs, and no where near the 360 that Dockery played at last year. Of course Defensive Tackles back then were only 320, not 400lbs. The Refrigerator Perry was only in the low 330's and was considered a giant. Just to keep the perspective in line.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

As a unit, the backup OL did not look very good against the Bengals.

But that doesn't mean individually they aren't capable of filling in. I'm not sure we really know what we have yet as far as the backups are concerned.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

As I said in another thread if most where like me watching the game I was watching the line as a whole. Only a few of those guys are going to make the team and if two are playing poorly (missing assignments etc) it will make the whole unit look bad. The coaches are going to hand pick the few that look good and plug them into (when needed) a solid group of linemen. I would think with the three (Bugel, Saunders, Gibbs) if they saw a problem with the backups they would have addressed the problem.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;204798]As a unit, the backup OL did not look very good against the Bengals.

But that doesn't mean individually they aren't capable of filling in. I'm not sure we really know what we have yet as far as the backups are concerned.[/quote]

This is a good post. When the 1st team came out of the game, the entire starting offensive line went out and they put in 5 backups and Todd Collins at QB. The line was a freakin turnstile, but there were so many rushers coming through I couldn't really recognize which individual linemen were having trouble and which ones were holding their own.

If you put Mike Pucillo on a line, subbing in for Rabach and playing in between Samuels, Dockery, Thomas, and Jansen, I bet Pucillo holds up just fine. Tough to evaluate the line just yet. I need to see more in the preseason before I judge it.

Incidentally, Todd Collins did nothing to redeem himself the other night, but I definitely need to reserve judgment on him too. If he played behind the 1st team offensive line the story might be completely different. He was getting rushed so damn much I don't know what we can expect him to do. He made a few boneheaded decisions like trying to ditch the ball and getting it picked by a DE. And then getting sacked in the end zone. But a lot of that blame goes to the line too, it's hard to fault Collins too much. If Brunell were in there for that bull rush, the only thing he could have done better is gotten rid of the ball a bit better. It's not like Brunell or Campbell would have done much positive if a rush like that came in their face every down. I'm reserving judgment on everyone at this point.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

I agree with another one of the posts that Bugel still is a great O-line coach but maybe his influence with Gibbs and upper management isn't very great. You saw how the offensive production plummeted last year when Randy Thomas went out. The Skins set a record for lowest yards in a playoff win. They should've learned their lesson but chose only to go after position players in free agency which surprised me greatly. Dockery is Ok but he's not a pro-bowler.

The O-line backups looked pathetic on Sunday against the Bengals 2nd string and this is an area that they should've put a priority on in the offseason especially with an older quarterback who is more prone to injury. Maybe go after 1 position player and concentrate on getting at least one solid backup on the O-line.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[quote=FRPLG;204689]Different time now. Gibbs and Co. used to stash starter level players on IR and in backup roles because they could. Nowadays it is difficult to keep good players as backups and you are seeing the product. You seem amazed that when a first stringer goes down that there is a dropoff in the level of play with the next player. I would think that it would be obvious that the backups aren't as good.[/quote]

Excellent point FRPLG, this is the same for any team in regards to starting caliber back ups at any position. If they are of starting caliber the chances are they will be starting for another team and not in a back up role. Salary Cap just does not allow you to stock pile good back ups, if they are good enough to start it is a good chance we don't have the money to meet agents and players demands to pay them as a starter, though they may only be a back up on our team, so in turn the player leaves and starts for another team. I don't think we have to fear our entire line goes down and we have to play with all back ups like the first preseason game this year, but most of these players in reserve I hope will be serviceable and I think buges feels comfortable with these players to fill those roles if an individual goes down.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

NO, Bugel has not lost it.

The problem is for ten years Snydratto drafted terribly after the second round. They would do well with 1st and second round picks, but NOTHING after that. You can not develop quality depth at any position when your later round picks suck and get cut year after year.

In Bugels first term Bethard/Casserly found OL gems everywhere:

1) In Bugels first year Bethard/Casserly drafted M. May and R. Grimm (1st & 3rd round), then signed as undrafted F.A. rookies Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bosic. 4/5 of our line came in one offseason.

Raleigh McKenzie (11th round) and Ed Simmons (6th round) were great backups and ended up becoming great starters.
Call these lower picks lucky or smart.
We need to maxmize our draft picks for cheap depth.

FRPLG-
Back in the day Gibbs stashed QB's and other positions on IR. but I do not recall Gibbs ever stashing an offensive lineman of any significance on IR. They went out and found great players.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;204857]1) In Bugels first year Bethard/Casserly drafted M. May and R. Grimm (1st & 3rd round), then signed as undrafted F.A. rookies Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bosic. 4/5 of our line came in one offseason.

Raleigh McKenzie (11th round) and Ed Simmons (6th round) were great backups and ended up becoming great starters.
Call these lower picks lucky or smart.
We need to maxmize our draft picks for cheap depth.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. And don't forget Mark Schlereth -- another late round gem.

Sometimes I wonder whether that was really great scouting and a demonstration of Beathard's keen eye for spotting talent, or was it just the luck of the draw? Just think of the one-in-a-million shot the Patriots had by taking one of the best quarterbacks in the league in the 6th round!

I guess it's a combination of both. The stars were certainly aligned for the Redskins throughout the 80's. But Beathard was one of best at his job.

Re: Has Bugel lost it?
 

By the way, have you seen Schlereth's daughter? She's no Ramona but still cute

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