Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Does everyone see the difference between the quarterbacks now. Anyone who tries to compare the two is fing crazy one is a sports car the other one a tricycle. Dont give me the quarterback ratings,because Manning doesnt make his stats at garbage time like Brunell does every week. Manning does it all game. Manning goes deep at least 10 times a game, Brunell get his stats on screens at least ten times a game. I especially love Brunell just dumping the ball off to betts and time just keeps rolliing making sure he builds up his stats. Heaven forbid he takes a damn chance when were down by 19 or 22 points.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

I'll compare them. Manning can throw more than 2 yards beyond the line of scrimmage, whereas Brunell cannot. Manning's receivers rely on Manning's ability to throw the ball deep and with accuracy, whereas Brunell relies on his receivers to run after the catch.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

what was best was hearing Brunell being compared to old Montana and Elway. classic.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Anyone else thing the reason white on white unis have been so popular is that Brunell has problems seeing anything else?

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

I don't know who would be crazy enough to compare Brunell to Manning.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

You had people and you know who your are saying Brunell passing rating better than Mannings and his yard per attempt was better and Manning didnt complete 22 in a row against the Texans. The reason Manning doest complete 22 in a row is because he actually throws the ball down the field and not behind the line of scrimmage. He take chances to try to give his team a chance, not just to build Bull S--- stats.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Put Manning with this talent and we would average 45 points a game! HAIL from MCUSA!

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Does anyone think that lloyd,cooley or randel el would be this unproductive with Manning or any just over average qb. Think what Moss stats would be with mannning and how much that would help portis run.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Anyone who compared Brunell to Manning should be locked in an insane asylum.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR;232422]Does anyone think that lloyd,cooley or randel el would be this unproductive with Manning or any just over average qb. Think what Moss stats would be with mannning and how much that would help portis run.[/quote]

mcnabb and brady have been making crap receivers look better than advertised for years.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

I don't think anyone was making any direct comparisons.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

brunell is bad and manning is good period.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Archie? Yikes, that's a tough one but I think Mark can outperform Archie at this point in time.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Brunell's been to twice as many AFC Championships games as Peyton. ;)

sigh...I believe the expression here is "grasping for straws"

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Manning is a winner!

Brunell is a question mark!

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

It's not that Brunell can't go downfield, it's that he is way too quick to checkdown when he doesn't see exactly what he wants. He's not willing to believe in his talent and throw the ball into coverage, like he did in Jacksonville. Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell used to go deep all day with Brunell throwing to him.

Peyton is one of the premier QBs in the league right now, and it also much younger than Brunell. Brunell is past his prime, but still a serviceable QB. He need to shake that conscience and trust his arm more.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;233099]It's not that Brunell can't go downfield, it's that he is way too quick to checkdown when he doesn't see exactly what he wants. He's not willing to believe in his talent and throw the ball into coverage, like he did in Jacksonville. Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell used to go deep all day with Brunell throwing to him.

Peyton is one of the premier QBs in the league right now, and it also much younger than Brunell. Brunell is past his prime, but still a serviceable QB. He need to shake that conscience and trust his arm more.[/quote]


He checkdown just fine yesterday. The problem was that the Colts secondary read the checkdowns and blewup the plays.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Manning is the best QB in the league. Brunell is a vet who still plays at a pretty high level. While I could draw parallels all day, the truth is no one in the game today is anywhere near Peyton Manning. I don't know if anyone at this fourm ever tried to make a point of one being better than the other simply because it's a given that Manning is the best.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear a Campbell-Manning comparision sometime after his first TD pass from someone on this fourm. It's quite sad that some people can be so blind to good production. Campbell will be good, I promise you. If you want to know why, pick up the [U]Pro Football Prospectus 2006[/U].

But the only reason I ever mention Manning and Brunell in the same sentence, is because they are both veteran QBs who are in fact human and make mistakes. Two different players, two different roles in two different offenses. Manning is better. No one disputes that.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Of course his checkdowns are fine, he only does it 20 f'ing times a game. He's a master at screens and checkdowns. And of course the Colts D was ready for it...it's all he f'ing does.

If he takes 1 chance out of 5 to trust his arm, his ability and his receivers, instead of dumping the goddamn ball off, we may be better off.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;233109]Of course his checkdowns are fine, he only does it 20 f'ing times a game. He's a master at screens and checkdowns. And of course the Colts D was ready for it...it's all he f'ing does.

If he takes 1 chance out of 5 to trust his arm, his ability and his receivers, instead of dumping the goddamn ball off, we may be better off.[/quote]

Welcome to Joe Gibbs football!

Play not to loose the game instead of playing to win the game.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;233109]If he takes 1 chance out of 5 to trust his arm, his ability and his receivers, instead of dumping the goddamn ball off, we may be better off.[/quote]What? Why?

#1 the vertical passing game is not the strength of our recieving core. Lloyd is the most well-adjusted for it. So I'd say your 1 in 5 chance of success figure is pretty accurate. Running with that...

We can get pretty much 4-5 yards a play dumping the ball off. If they jump that, Brunell tends to find guys sitting around the sticks for the first down. I'd say 4/5 times we can pick up 4-5 yards doing what we do in the passing game. So the only way our drives stall are: Turnovers, negative plays, penalties, or failed 3rd and short conversions.

Throwing the ball up would increase the turnover rate. It would increse the likelyhood of sacks and penalties. More importantly, 80% of the time, it costs you a down...if you are lucky. Remember, you are throwing into coverage. By design. Which I don't like.

So if the offense we run now is designed to keep negative plays, penalties, and turnovers from occuring, then the problem happens only when those things occur. We aren't turning the ball over. We are however getting negative plays and penalties. And the penalties aren't on Mark Brunell. The sacks could be on a Quarterback if he holds the ball too long. But one of the main complaints with his play is that he doesn't hold it long enough.

Offensive efficiecy is up from last year due in part to the system, and in part to Brunell's play. But drives aren't being sustained. Either players who go hard the first two downs are deciding to pack in on third, or the playcalling is suspect. I blame the playcalling, but I think its a deeper issue. Saunders' philosophy is to ignore the down and distance and call the play he thinks will gain the most yardage at that time. So if he thinks a deep pass will net 0 yards (incomplete), he won't call the deep pass.

I believe he sees the long pass as a sign of desperation. By the way you guys talk about it, I think he might be on to something.

So if you have followed my stream of conscieousness to this point, I may have stumbled upon the reasoning for the lack of deep throws. Having the 6th ranked offense and the 11th ranked QB, he doesn't feel the pressure you do to tear up chunks of yardage. He continues to desire to move the chains. Saunders knows any call he makes could go for a touchdown. So why call the low percentage pass when he could call the high one or run it?

I don't condone being conservative, and if I was calling plays, I would put more stock into down and distance than Al does, but I REALLY don't condone offensive desperation, espicially when the alternative is working reasonably well.

I think its time for some desperate measures on the defensive end.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;233108]Manning is the best QB in the league. Brunell is a vet who still plays at a pretty high level. While I could draw parallels all day, the truth is no one in the game today is anywhere near Peyton Manning. I don't know if anyone at this fourm ever tried to make a point of one being better than the other simply because it's a given that Manning is the best.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear a Campbell-Manning comparision sometime after his first TD pass from someone on this fourm. It's quite sad that some people can be so blind to good production. Campbell will be good, I promise you. If you want to know why, pick up the [U]Pro Football Prospectus 2006[/U].

But the only reason I ever mention Manning and Brunell in the same sentence, is because they are both veteran QBs who are in fact human and make mistakes. Two different players, two different roles in two different offenses. Manning is better. No one disputes that.[/quote]

yeah, but based on that (qb success from NCAA -> NFL based on NCAA starts and completion %), kyle boller is god, which is clearly untrue.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;233136]What? Why?

#1 the vertical passing game is not the strength of our recieving core. Lloyd is the most well-adjusted for it. So I'd say your 1 in 5 chance of success figure is pretty accurate. Running with that...
[/quote]

WHAAA???? moss runs a 4.27, and deep passes aren't his strength? El is super speed too, yet he's not good at deep balls? dallas 14-13 showed our strength, an it WASN'T screen screen screen, dump off dump off dump off. it was varied, and definately included going over the top.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

yeah the Colts are desperate. all the way into the 4th quarter. this was a real bad rationalization GTripp. you don't ignore your playmakers you pay millions for, and you don't play strictly for completion percentage which seems to be the ultimate goal in your explantion. wins be damned.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=That Guy;233147]WHAAA???? moss runs a 4.27, and deep passes aren't his strength? El is super speed too, yet he's not good at deep balls? dallas 14-13 showed our strength, an it WASN'T screen screen screen, dump off dump off dump off. it was varied, and definately included going over the top.[/quote]We have height issues at WR. We won't win jump balls down the field. Moss' strength is YAC, it's something we figured out after the Jets had 4 years to and couldn't. They tried to use his speed down the field, and could never find him. We throw screens and curls, set up the blocks and watch him run. It's really cool.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233136]What? Why?

#1 the vertical passing game is not the strength of our recieving core. Lloyd is the most well-adjusted for it. So I'd say your 1 in 5 chance of success figure is pretty accurate. Running with that...[/QUOTE]

Huh? So Moss isn't a deep threat either? What is ARE, a possession receiver? Patten was a deep threat in New England. You also concede that Lloyd is a deep threat. So I have no clue how you can say that we don't have deep threats.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233136]
We can get pretty much 4-5 yards a play dumping the ball off. If they jump that, Brunell tends to find guys sitting around the sticks for the first down. I'd say 4/5 times we can pick up 4-5 yards doing what we do in the passing game. So the only way our drives stall are: Turnovers, negative plays, penalties, or failed 3rd and short conversions.
[/QUOTE]

NO team eliminates turnovers, negative plays, penalties, or failed 3rd down conversions.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233136]
Throwing the ball up would increase the turnover rate. It would increse the likelyhood of sacks and penalties. More importantly, 80% of the time, it costs you a down...if you are lucky. Remember, you are throwing into coverage. By design. Which I don't like.
[/QUOTE]

So you don't like throwing the ball deep? I don't know of ANYONE that thinks that throwing the ball deep is a bad thing. Gibbs brought wideouts in to improve our deep passing game. So Gibbs was dumb to try to focus on the deep passing game?

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233136]
So if the offense we run now is designed to keep negative plays, penalties, and turnovers from occuring, then the problem happens only when those things occur. We aren't turning the ball over. We are however getting negative plays and penalties. And the penalties aren't on Mark Brunell. The sacks could be on a Quarterback if he holds the ball too long. But one of the main complaints with his play is that he doesn't hold it long enough.
[/QUOTE]

Although the penalties aren't on Brunell, some of the negative plays are. He checks down on about 80% of all passing plays. Defenses just sit by the line of scrimmage and wait to jump on Portis or the guy getting the screen pass. Net result=negative plays.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233136]
Offensive efficiecy is up from last year due in part to the system, and in part to Brunell's play. But drives aren't being sustained. Either players who go hard the first two downs are deciding to pack in on third, or the playcalling is suspect. I blame the playcalling, but I think its a deeper issue. Saunders' philosophy is to ignore the down and distance and call the play he thinks will gain the most yardage at that time. So if he thinks a deep pass will net 0 yards (incomplete), he won't call the deep pass.[/QUOTE]

Drives aren't being sustained because you can't expect a team to be able to consistently sustain 16 play drives. They need to start airing it out a bit to get teams to respect our offense and back off the line of scrimmage.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=illdefined;233149]yeah the Colts are desperate. all the way into the 4th quarter. this was a real bad rationalization GTripp. you don't ignore your playmakers you pay millions for, and you don't play strictly for completion percentage which seems to be the ultimate goal in your explantion. wins be damned.[/quote]Do completion percentage and yards/attempt not dictate successful passing? Am I that mislead?

The whole situation is moot. If we can't stop anybody defensively, then it doesn't matter who we have at QB. The games will just be over a lot sooner if we aren't careful with the football.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233158]We have height issues at WR. We won't win jump balls down the field. Moss' strength is YAC, it's something we figured out after the Jets had 4 years to and couldn't. They tried to use his speed down the field, and could never find him. We throw screens and curls, set up the blocks and watch him run. It's really cool.[/QUOTE]

Moss is definately good at getting YAC, but to say he isn't a deep threat is simply ridiculous.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

GTripp,

Just one question. Do you think that Mark Brunell is great, average, or sub-par in the intermediate and deep passing game?

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;233164]Do completion percentage and yards/attempt not dictate successful passing? Am I that mislead?

The whole situation is moot. If we can't stop anybody defensively, then it doesn't matter who we have at QB. The games will just be over a lot sooner if we aren't careful with the football.[/quote]

yeah, points dictate wins. you need more than them.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

peyton been to two championship games

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;233158]We have height issues at WR. We won't win jump balls down the field. Moss' strength is YAC, it's something we figured out after the Jets had 4 years to and couldn't. They tried to use his speed down the field, and could never find him. We throw screens and curls, set up the blocks and watch him run. It's really cool.[/quote]

height issues don't matter when you split defenders. height matters a bit more at the goal line, but moss got 9 tds last year, some of which were deep strikes over the top. (harrison got 2 TDs on the goal line with mis-direction and speed, not height).

the jets had a qb without an arm and misused him.

we've thrown screens, it's all we seem to throw, the defenses have blown the f**k out of them 2 weeks in a row now. you've got to be more than just screen passes.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

brunell very sub par

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;233162]Huh? So Moss isn't a deep threat either? What is ARE, a possession receiver? Patten was a deep threat in New England. You also concede that Lloyd is a deep threat. So I have no clue how you can say that we don't have deep threats.



NO team eliminates turnovers, negative plays, penalties, or failed 3rd down conversions. Plus, when you are constantly throwing screen passes or check offs to guys in the flats, you end up becoming predictable.



So you don't like throwing the ball deep? I don't know of ANYONE (other than you), that thinks that you don't need a deep passing game to have a successful offense.



Although the penalties aren't on Brunell, some of the negative plays are. He checks down on about 80% of all passing plays. Defenses just sit by the line of scrimmage and wait to jump on Portis or the guy getting the screen pass. Net result=negative plays.



Drives aren't being sustained because you can't expect a team to be able to consistently sustain 16 play drives. They need to start airing it out a bit to get teams to respect our offense and back off the line of scrimmage.[/quote]Moss, and ARE are runners. They excel when you get them the ball quickly in the open field and let them run. The key is the open field part.

And my problem is not going deep. It's with low percentage passes that don't work that have no purpose but to "open up the run". Offensively, you are going to layer your passing attack. So it becomes a progressionary thing. You throw deep to the open man when its given to you. We do this. We only get about 1-2 chances a game, but we certainly do this. The reason you only get 1-2 chances isn't rocket science. It's only going to occur when those DBs are in zone, and don't get help, because the safeties are out of position trying to take away something shorter. It's why the shorter routes are so successful. You can throw them over and over, and the defense can't always afford to gamble to stop them. We have had great success throwing those routes this year and it should shock no one. Also, it may not be that apparent, but we don't throw screens and dumpoffs every play. That's why they are often there.

And yes, I've seen the defense jump on Portis for like a 2 yard gain on a Brunell check down. But from a philosophy standpoint, this is much better than a ball thrown away (which is why Brunell is a significantly better QB than someone like, say, Kerry Collins), because once the pass is complete, something fluky can happen, like a missed tackle or a facemask, which becomes a big gainer. If not, you take your 1-2 yards, and call a different play. That's why completion percentage is significant. You give your team a chance to gain yards.

And despite all this horrible non-vertical heathen playcalling, Mark Brunell STILL is averaging 7.11 yards/attempt on the season.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=That Guy;233179]we've thrown screens, it's all we seem to throw, the defenses have blown the f**k out of them 2 weeks in a row now. you've got to be more than just screen passes.[/quote]We hit curls perhaps better than any other team in the league. I've seen Santana take off many a time after catching a curl.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233182]Moss, and ARE are runners. They excel when you get them the ball quickly in the open field and let them run. The key is the open field part. [/QUOTE]

there's lots of open field above the safeties too.


[QUOTE=GTripp0012;233182] And my problem is not going deep. It's with low percentage passes that don't work that have no purpose but to "open up the run". Offensively, you are going to layer your passing attack. So it becomes a progressionary thing. You throw deep to the open man when its given to you. We do this. We only get about 1-2 chances a game, but we certainly do this. The reason you only get 1-2 chances isn't rocket science. It's only going to occur when those DBs are in zone, and don't get help, because the safeties are out of position trying to take away something shorter. It's why the shorter routes are so successful. You can throw them over and over, and the defense can't always afford to gamble to stop them. We have had great success throwing those routes this year and it should shock no one. Also, it may not be that apparent, but we don't throw screens and dumpoffs every play. That's why they are often there.
[/QUOTE]

can't believe you think "opening up the run" is such a frivolous thing. how do you just toss that out there like its worthless. its what got us into the playoffs last season! and AGAIN, what do you keep calling "great success"? receptions made? what's it matter if they aren't turning into any points, and in Mark's case, even FIRST DOWNS??

GTripp, you are absolitely tripping if you think Santana, Lloyd and ARE were brought here just for curls and screens. i swear all you care about is Mark's QB rating.

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

Manning is trying to lose his head . Remember last year , you spear were saying Brunell was a top qb . You love him when we win , now you kick sand in his face ,,, LOL ! DAMN , wish we had kept those f-ing draft picks < 4 > that we traded for JC , and had picked up Brees ! NEXT YEAR BOYS AND GIRLS , NEXT YEAR ??

Re: Does Anyone Want To Compare Brunell To Manning Now????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;233187]We hit curls perhaps better than any other team in the league. I've seen Santana take off many a time after catching a curl.[/quote]

in the last two weeks since no ones been afraid of us going deep? and how about that running game that's turn portis into worthlessness. yeah, those flat passes are really rocking out right now.