Why Brunell is Struggling
 

Not that we need more Mark Brunell threads, but I wanted to post this as a piece of information that not a lot of us, if any, have picked up on. We've all noticed Brunell's suckiness but it's been tough to pinpoint the exact problems.

From today's Washington Post:

[QUOTE] The coaches want to work more closely with Brunell, especially on his dropbacks on passing plays and his reading of defenses. While Brunell is a more accurate passer this year than a year ago, the coaching staff wants to emphasize to him that, in associate head coach Al Saunders's offense, decision-making must be immediate. Brunell's habit of dropping into the pocket, scanning the field and then patting the football has disrupted the timing of the offense, coaches say, and forced him to throw to a safety-valve receiver, most often a running back.
[/QUOTE]

This is a good explanation for why Brunell is always checking down to underneath stuff. We know he's been checking down, but we didn't really know why. He doesn't have the timing part down yet, and he's missing his window of opportunity to throw to the WRs. He should have it down by now, IMO.

Good reporting by the Post.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501844.html]Redskins Assess the Damage - washingtonpost.com[/url]

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

I wonder how much of that is due to adjusting to the new offense.

Whatever it is, they need to get him straightened out and quick.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=Mattyk72;234992]I wonder how much of that is due to adjusting to the new offense.

Whatever it is, they need to get him straightened out and quick.[/quote]

When I think about it, Brunell has never run a timing offense like this one before. In Jacksonville and in his first two years here, he was able to survey the field for a while. Now Saunders is asking him to get the ball out quickly, it's got to be an adjustment.

But I mean jeez, he's had all offseason and now seven games, and it's still not there.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

I agree. And it's nice to finally get some kind of explanation.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

I hate to keep going back to the same thing, but Todd Collins said it would take a full season for the QBs to get up to speed in this offense. When I first heard that I was like yeah right, but maybe now it seems he was indeed telling the truth.

Getting back to your point Schneed, I agree Brunell has never been the prototypical dropback, pocket QB. Right now he's struggling with adjusting to this new style of offense, and he doesn't seem to trust what he's seeing.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

This is my first post, but I have been viewing the site for a few years now. It's good to be able to rejoice together and spew together. With that said, everyone knows Brunell is on his way out as starter whether it be this season or (MY God) hopefully next. Spending time trying to get him to learn this season (2-5) will result in Campbell taking all of next season trying to get acclimated to the system. When does the madness stop????????? WE MUST SEE IF CAMPBELL IS THE MAN FOR THE JOB OR NOT!!!

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=TheBloodSkin;235008]This is my first post, but I have been viewing the site for a few years now. It's good to be able to rejoice together and spew together. With that said, everyone knows Brunell is on his way out as starter whether it be this season or (MY God) hopefully next. Spending time trying to get him to learn this season (2-5) will result in Campbell taking all of next season trying to get acclimated to the system. When does the madness stop????????? WE MUST SEE IF CAMPBELL IS THE MAN FOR THE JOB OR NOT!!![/quote]

Welcome. I agree.

At some point, practice time and game time must be invested in Jason Campbell to get him acclimated. 2-5 seems like a good time to do it, since winning and losing doesn't matter so much at this point.

Gibbs won't see it that way, though. Until the 'Skins have 7 losses or are otherwise mathematically eliminated, he's going to stick with what gives us the best chance to win. Once completely dead in the water, then maybe he'll hand the reins to Campbell to learn from. I just hope that doesn't result in Campbell being forced to learn on the job next season.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

Yup, because you KNOW once the team is eliminated, there's going to be a lot less trying from the guys.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;235004]I hate to keep going back to the same thing, but Todd Collins said it would take a full season for the QBs to get up to speed in this offense. When I first heard that I was like yeah right, but maybe now it seems he was indeed telling the truth.

Getting back to your point Schneed, I agree Brunell has never been the prototypical dropback, pocket QB. Right now he's struggling with adjusting to this new style of offense, and he doesn't seem to trust what he's seeing.[/QUOTE]

That's a very good point. Given that the playbook is supposedly 700 pages, it's no surprise that Brunell has struggled a bit to get plays downfield. Perhaps because Mark is relatively unfamiliar with the playbook, he is not comfortable with throwing to a spot and anticipating that a receiver will be there.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

Something perhaps worth noting from today's WP:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501844.html"]Redskins Assess the Damage[/URL]
October 26
Washington Post: "In Brunell's absence, another curious and possibly important event took place: For the first time in his young career, quarterback Jason Campbell took all the snaps with the first team on consecutive days. The move could be significant, a sign that the Redskins acknowledge that the disastrous events of the first seven games have accelerated their timetable for getting Campbell prepared to play"

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

Good read. Great find Schneed.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;235021]Something perhaps worth noting from today's WP:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501844.html"]Redskins Assess the Damage[/URL]
October 26
Washington Post: "In Brunell's absence, another curious and possibly important event took place: For the first time in his young career, quarterback Jason Campbell took all the snaps with the first team on consecutive days. The move could be significant, a sign that the Redskins acknowledge that the disastrous events of the first seven games have accelerated their timetable for getting Campbell prepared to play"[/QUOTE]

In the past, hasn't TC worked with the first unit when MB was injured? If so, that is an interesting move.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

I thought he had too. Maybe Mark is hurt worse than we thought. Oh, to dream.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=TheBloodSkin;235008]This is my first post, but I have been viewing the site for a few years now. It's good to be able to rejoice together and spew together. With that said, everyone knows Brunell is on his way out as starter whether it be this season or (MY God) hopefully next. Spending time trying to get him to learn this season (2-5) will result in Campbell taking all of next season trying to get acclimated to the system. When does the madness stop????????? WE MUST SEE IF CAMPBELL IS THE MAN FOR THE JOB OR NOT!!![/quote]

The............"Madness" stops when the season is lost. Joe does not know what it means to QUIT. It looks bleak, but it is not gone. if we lose to Dallas, there will be plenty of time to evaluate JC and the rest of thre team

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;235019]Yup, because you KNOW once the team is eliminated, there's going to be a lot less trying from the guys.[/quote]
So are you saying we have a team of quitters with no pride?

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=Schneed10;234995]When I think about it, Brunell has never run a timing offense like this one before. In Jacksonville and in his first two years here, he was able to survey the field for a while. Now Saunders is asking him to get the ball out quickly, it's got to be an adjustment.

But I mean jeez, he's had all offseason and now seven games, and it's still not there.[/quote]

Maybe if you put a shocking dog collar on Brunell and gave the control to Al, he could get the ball out more quickly?

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=firstdown;235030]So are you saying we have a team of quitters with no pride?[/quote]

Who knows? But we'd definitely see the true colors of the team if they knew they had no chance of a playoff birth. We saw the Cowboys last year lose at HOME to the Rams after they knew they wouldn't make it. I hope that's not the case.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

It this team quits down the stretch Gibbs has really lost his touch and only then would I envision him stepping down.

This team has some prideful vets and a staff that I don't think would allow them to quit.

This team was face down in the mud last year at 5-6 and could have easily given up. We'll see if they can respond in a similar way this year.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

Which makes me think it wouldn't happen. I just hope we win enough games after this bye to at least make December interesting. Then we can get into the, "If the Redskins win this game and Team A loses this game, then if Team B beats Team C, we're in!"

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

that's a good read. i guess we sort of just expected the offense to light it up without even considering that it does take time for the guys to get used to it.

i asked a few months ago when i thought of this about how saunders' offense did went he first came to KC. i believe KC was 6-10 but the offense was still rated high. so i guess that doesn't explain anything...

anyhow i'd still like to see campbell in there if we lose a few more games. yeah it sucks we won't be in the postseason but having regular season games to see what he can do vs. preseason junk would be invaluable.

then we could maybe decide if we do indeed have to go after someone else.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

I remember reading that Mark responded to Collins' comment that it would take a full year to learn Saunders' offense by saying something to the effect, "I'm 35 years old. I don't have a year to learn an offense." Well, it looks like he was right. I remember thinking then that his comment didn't really bolster any confidence in me as how he was going to approach or grasp the new offense.I doubt he really inspired any of his teammates either.

So, given this year learning curve. Why didn't we just trickle in the new 700 page playbook with Mark and keep what worked last year? While JC undertook the full Saunders beast. Also, why not JC in the first place? If it really takes a year, we need to get him in ASAP, so that year isn't another 2-14 year next year.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

this was a good reprt from wp, they also should mention that mb has a long windup & his release is slower w/age. What I don't understand is the disparity between making a quick read & throwing deep. The latter requires more time. If he's holding the ball too long, in theory it would imply nothing is open deep, since he rarely throws deep. Is it just a matter of confidence? It seems as if he's not making any reads sometimes, just going to the rb almost immediately.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=TheBloodSkin;235008]This is my first post, but I have been viewing the site for a few years now. It's good to be able to rejoice together and spew together. With that said, everyone knows Brunell is on his way out as starter whether it be this season or (MY God) hopefully next. Spending time trying to get him to learn this season (2-5) will result in Campbell taking all of next season trying to get acclimated to the system. When does the madness stop????????? WE MUST SEE IF CAMPBELL IS THE MAN FOR THE JOB OR NOT!!![/quote]
And in the end Campbell will get fedup and leave.... like so many other Skins have..... And poeple on this board will be calling him a traitor.... :benched:

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

This is complete BS, Kurt Warner came right out of the grocery store, to the NFL and was able to run this offense, effectively. I am so tired of people making excuses for MB, we are nearly 6 months into this offense, they practiced everyday in the summer and 2-3 times a week during the season, if MB doesnt have the timing down by now, then he never will, bench Grandpa. Also I never thought I would say this, but... I have lost all respect for Joe Gibbs, he continues to stead fastly support MB when everyone knows he blows, thereby costing the skins any chance of a winning season.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;235021]Something perhaps worth noting from today's WP:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501844.html"]Redskins Assess the Damage[/URL]
October 26
Washington Post: "In Brunell's absence, another curious and possibly important event took place: For the first time in his young career, quarterback Jason Campbell took all the snaps with the first team on consecutive days. The move could be significant, a sign that the Redskins acknowledge that the disastrous events of the first seven games have accelerated their timetable for getting Campbell prepared to play"[/QUOTE]

Hopefully it means that at the very least he'll be elevated to #2

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=Stacks42;235047]This is complete BS, Kurt Warner came right out of the grocery store, to the NFL and was able to run this offense, effectively. I am so tired of people making excuses for MB, we are nearly 6 months into this offense, they practiced everyday in the summer and 2-3 times a week during the season, if MB doesnt have the timing down by now, then he never will, bench Grandpa. Also I never thought I would say this, but... I have lost all respect for Joe Gibbs, he continues to stead fastly support MB when everyone knows he blows, thereby costing the skins any chance of a winning season.[/quote]

That was the Martz offense that Warner was running, not the Saunders offense. Martz was the offensive coordinator, Saunders was the receivers coach in 1999.

There are similarities to Martz and Saunders, but Saunders relies a great deal more on timing. Martz ran a lot of play-action involving 7-step drops. Subtle differences, but definitely different species of offense.

EDIT: I, in no way, mean to defend Brunell. I don't buy that it should take one year to fully learn this offense. After a complete offseason, preseason, and seven games, Brunell should have it down IMO.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=Schneed10;235051]That was the Martz offense that Warner was running, not the Saunders offense. Martz was the offensive coordinator, Saunders was the receivers coach in 1999.

There are similarities to Martz and Saunders, but Saunders relies a great deal more on timing. Martz ran a lot of play-action involving 7-step drops. Subtle differences, but definitely different species of offense.

EDIT: I, in no way, mean to defend Brunell. I don't buy that it should take one year to fully learn this offense. After a complete offseason, preseason, and seven games, Brunell should have it down IMO.[/quote]

In Trent Greens first season in this offense he had 51 plays over 20yds and 12 over 40yds, NFL.com doesnt show how many 3yd dump off passes to the rb he had but I am positive that it is nowhere near the amount that MB has. Im MBs favor (it pains me to say this) but TG numbers were not that great his first season in this system but continued to get better season after season.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=Stacks42;235057]In Trent Greens first season in this offense he had 51 plays over 20yds and 12 over 40yds, NFL.com doesnt show how many 3yd dump off passes to the rb he had but I am positive that it is nowhere near the amount that MB has. Im MBs favor (it pains me to say this) but TG numbers were not that great his first season in this system but continued to get better season after season.[/quote]

Agreed, and as we all know Brunell doesn't have season after season to get better. Campbell does. The switch needs to be made this season or we're going to find ourselves with a QB who has learned the offense but is too old to execute it.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

there was talk of a slow start and adjustment period. i think more shotgun would help brunell get a faster read, since that seems to be were the money was last year... it'd also make the OL look better, since they'd have a bit more buffer room.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;235004]I hate to keep going back to the same thing, but Todd Collins said it would take a full season for the QBs to get up to speed in this offense. When I first heard that I was like yeah right, but maybe now it seems he was indeed telling the truth.

Getting back to your point Schneed, I agree Brunell has never been the prototypical dropback, pocket QB. Right now he's struggling with adjusting to this new style of offense, and he doesn't seem to trust what he's seeing.[/QUOTE]

that's why the decision to try and teach Brunell this whole new offense this late in his career, has to be questioned. it just has to.

with the dire (and mostly unavoidable) state of our defense, you look to the QB to pick the team up and try and win games. 5 losses (especially the WAY we've lost them) has been too many to realize that Brunell wasn't about to "win now".

he's obviously struggled with it despite the ENORMOUS investment in him, while we now risk losing another season trying to teach this system to the next quarterback.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;235065]there was talk of a slow start and adjustment period. i think more shotgun would help brunell get a faster read, since that seems to be were the money was last year... it'd also make the OL look better, since they'd have a bit more buffer room.[/QUOTE]

For the third time...bring back Bill Musgrave!! Seriously though the shotgun was great for MB. We need to use that more

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

saunders IS NOT the guy that ran the rams offense, PLEASE stop saying/implying the saunders is the guy responsible for that. martz focused on throwing to locations, not people, and martz didn't care about turnovers... gibbs REALLY does. and trent green is a better QB right now than brunell with a better OL, so the difference there is easy to explain.

warner, bledsoe, and brunell all suffer from looking at the rush instead of downfield at times.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=TAFKAS;235069]For the third time...bring back Bill Musgrave!! Seriously though the shotgun was great for MB. We need to use that more[/quote]

it does make you wonder... vick's looked better this year too.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

I agree that Mark seemed to be much more comfortable last year from the shotgun position. I hope this doesn't turn Turner-esque in which the attitude "what we do works" is prevalent making the possibility of adapting to the current players skill set unlikely.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;235051]
EDIT: I, in no way, mean to defend Brunell. I don't buy that it should take one year to fully learn this offense. After a complete offseason, preseason, and seven games, Brunell should have it down IMO.[/QUOTE]

here here.

if there's ANY benefit to being a 36 year old QB in the NFL, it's that's you're smart and have ostensibly seen it all. you're familiar with various offenses, and you're accustomed to being rushed.

Brunell seems to be playing the opposite, he's been overly sensitive to the rush (shellshocked?) and thinks his job is done safely throwing it to his escape valve.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=illdefined;235080]
Brunell seems to be playing the opposite, he's been overly sensitive to the rush (shellshocked?) and thinks his job is done safely throwing it to his escape valve.[/quote]


warner, bledsoe, etc etc. it's not unique among old QBs with lots of experience. that doesn't mean it doesn't suck though.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;235082]warner, bledsoe, etc etc. it's not unique among old QBs with lots of experience. that doesn't mean it doesn't suck though.[/QUOTE]

yeah, but at least Bledsoe's flaw is holding it too long looking DOWNfield. he's obviously at least willing to take the hit to get it down there. ugh can't believe i just defended that guy. :vomit:

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

Yeah he is a shot QB that does not know the offense still. More reason to start Campbell!!!!

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

After watching Brunell over the years it seems he has always trusted his legs more than his arm. Earlier in his career in Jacksonville it appeared as though he would look to run more frequently than throw, and kept that offense going with his legs. Now that he's older and running is not in his best interest, when it comes to throwing the ball in a timing offense I'm not sure he actually trust himself to make some of the throws he may have found easier to make when he was younger.

Re: Why Brunell is Struggling
 

[quote=illdefined;235085]yeah, but at least Bledsoe's flaw is holding it too long looking DOWNfield. he's obviously at least willing to take the hit to get it down there. ugh can't believe i just defended that guy. :vomit:[/quote]

Yeah but in the end it has the same result if not worse. He takes far too many sacks and doesn't look for a dumpoff at all, or he forces the issue and throws a horrible pick.

Brunell either dumps it off or throws it away. At least he doesn't force the issue or take too many sacks.

I'm not saying either way is particularly effective, but sacks and turnovers are the quickest way to the bench as we've seen.