Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Lately I've been feeling like there is a growing rift between the Skins' players and coaches. I've always thought that Gibbs' was the right guy to turn this franchise around--but are these players starting to tune out this coaching staff? Are the coaches losing their vigor in coaxing max effort out of the players? If one of these are true, we are in trouble. I fear that it is much worse--that both are true.

What we have now is overpaid and underachieving players as well as overpaid and underachieving coaches. We are saddled with many of these players due to their bloated contracts and we are saddled with many of these coaches due to bloated loyalties. So if you're Dan Snyder, what do you do?

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=NYCSkin;248667] So if you're Dan Snyder, what do you do?[/quote]


go get loaded on some 100 buck a glass hooch and get a blowjob from a cheerleader.


yup.. that'd cheer me up.

then I'd play my new playstation 3 until i fell asleep on a big pile of money and boobs.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=canthetuna;248669]go get loaded on some 100 buck a glass hooch and get a blowjob from a cheerleader.


yup.. that'd cheer me up.

then I'd play my new playstation 3 until i fell asleep on a big pile of money and boobs.[/quote]


Priceless. Money and boobs. It's the new Wall Street Show on Fox News.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

I don't sense that. I sense that, if anything, there's a loser's mentality this season. Last year they almost willed themselves to some of those victories. This year you don't get that same feeling of "we can do this" Maybe it trickles down from Portis not having the same joy he had last year. And Moss too. I really don't know. But I think coaches and players as a whole are in it together.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Everything that could go wrong for this team has, it's not as simple as saying there is a disconnect between the coaches and the players. We've been marred by injuries to key players (e.g. Portis, Moss, Springs, Rogers, Marshall, Griffin, Salave'a). We've had balls bounce in ways that even a German porn-director couldn't envision (e.g. Galloway to Becht and last week Brown to Buckhalter). We have a new offensive coordinator who brought a playbook that Todd Collins said would take players one year to get comfortable with. We've had individual breakdowns that kill us (e.g. Arch getting beat repeatedly over the top or Taylor biting on double-moves). On top of that, we've had basic team breakdowns in tackling and penalties. I don't think any one issue is killing us, we're getting hit with bad luck on top of bad play.

I honestly believe that if people do not hit the panic button in typical Snyder fashion, things will come together next season. We've just been hit with a perfect storm that we need to ride out for the next 9 months.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;248672]Everything that could go wrong for this team has, it's not as simple as saying there is a disconnect between the coaches and the players. We've been marred by injuries to key players (e.g. Portis, Moss, Springs, Rogers, Marshall, Griffin, Salave'a). We've had balls bounce in ways that even a German porn-director couldn't envision (e.g. Galloway to Becht and last week Brown to Buckhalter). We have a new offensive coordinator who brought a playbook that Todd Collins said would take players one year to get comfortable with. We've had individual breakdowns that kill us (e.g. Arch getting beat repeatedly over the top or Taylor biting on double-moves). On top of that, we've had basic team breakdowns in tackling and penalties. I don't think any one issue is killing us, we're getting hit with bad luck on top of bad play.

I honestly believe that if people do not hit the panic button in typical Snyder fashion, things will come together next season. We've just been hit with a perfect storm that we need to ride out for the next 9 months.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the new sig!

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Too many times this season I have heard "I just run the plays that the coaches call...". That implies to me that there is a disconnect, that the players feel as though they should be doing something else. And how many times have you heard that this team says it "lacks an identity"? Ten weeks into the season and the Skins' don't know what kind of team they want to be.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=NYCSkin;248667] So if you're Dan Snyder, what do you do?[/QUOTE]

Sell the team and let someone else run it.

As a Yankees/Skins fan the parallels are so similar. You can't buy a championship and you can't buy chemistry. At least the Yankees actually make the playoffs though and still feel they have a shot each year.

Just wondering what guy the Skins are going to overpay for (who's career has peaked just before signing with the Skins) in the off season?

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;248677]Thanks for the new sig![/QUOTE]

You are most welcome. ;)

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;248672]I honestly believe that if people do not hit the panic button in typical Snyder fashion, things will come together next season. We've just been hit with a perfect storm that we need to ride out for the next 9 months.[/quote]I wholeheartedly agree. If we want a quick fix, the quickest fix is no fix at all.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Not believing there's actually a disconnect between coaches and players. Just think the coaches got some guys out there who can't or won't get the job done.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

cut the staff, stop with the bad signings and overpaying players (el's contract was a full 40% more than chicago offered... and i bet arch's deal was cose to 60+% more... i don't think it had to be that much higher, especially since his impact on our W-L column has been so very very small).

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;248799]cut the staff, stop with the bad signings and overpaying players (el's contract was a full 40% more than chicago offered... and i bet arch's deal was cose to 60+% more... i don't think it had to be that much higher, especially since his impact on our W-L column has been so very very small).[/QUOTE]

Cut the staff? You haven't joined the F Gibbs, Williams, and Saunders camp have you?

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

I think he means trim the staff. Tell the Breauxs and Lindseys of the world thanks but you're not needed here anymore

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

I would say there's a disconect between blocking and tackling...

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;248925]Cut the staff? You haven't joined the F Gibbs, Williams, and Saunders camp have you?[/quote]

no, oops, hope it didn't come off that way. I meant cut back, like breaux etc. I think we've got too many people and i'm not sure if saunders is necessary, but he'll have 7 more games to show himself. (i still contend he's calling all these outside runs because they worked with 3 of the best pulling OL in KC, but we don't have a roaf, shields, and waters here - so he needs to adjust to what we've got, which is downhill running, more shotgun to protect the QB from dock and rabach in long passing situations, etc). All i know is gibbs offense worked much better than this one (which constantly abandons the runs and seems to suffer from bad playcalling often).

And for as great a quote as bugel may be, he hasn't made a single OL guy play better in 3 years, so i'm not sure he's really needed either.

maybe losing walker hurt our D too...

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=NYCSkin;248667]Lately I've been feeling like there is a growing rift between the Skins' players and coaches. I've always thought that Gibbs' was the right guy to turn this franchise around--but are these players starting to tune out this coaching staff? Are the coaches losing their vigor in coaxing max effort out of the players? If one of these are true, we are in trouble. I fear that it is much worse--that both are true.

What we have now is overpaid and underachieving players as well as overpaid and underachieving coaches. We are saddled with many of these players due to their bloated contracts and we are saddled with many of these coaches due to bloated loyalties. So if you're Dan Snyder, what do you do?[/quote]
Give us an example of this growing rift between players and coaches your feeling is not being felt here. Are you making up problems that may exist for the sake of talking about a made up scenario.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=That Guy;249037]no, oops, hope it didn't come off that way. I meant cut back, like breaux etc. I think we've got too many people and i'm not sure if saunders is necessary, but he'll have 7 more games to show himself. (i still contend he's calling all these outside runs because they worked with 3 of the best pulling OL in KC, but we don't have a roaf, shields, and waters here - so he needs to adjust to what we've got, which is downhill running, more shotgun to protect the QB from dock and rabach in long passing situations, etc). All i know is gibbs offense worked much better than this one (which constantly abandons the runs and seems to suffer from bad playcalling often).

And for as great a quote as bugel may be, he hasn't made a single OL guy play better in 3 years, so i'm not sure he's really needed either.

maybe losing walker hurt our D too...[/quote]


Do you truly feel that our offense is worse than it was last year?????

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;249062]Do you truly feel that our offense is worse than it was last year?????[/quote]
I was thinking the same thing.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=firstdown;249060]Give us an example of this growing rift between players and coaches your feeling is not being felt here. Are you making up problems that may exist for the sake of talking about a made up scenario.[/quote]
Check out today's entry in Jason LaConfora's blog: [url=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/11/monday_morning_hback_7.html#more]Monday Morning H-Back - Redskins Insider[/url]

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Pretty good entry. Little too much greg williams bashing, he's been great up until this season, we just took him for granted. The truth is, Williams doesnt have the defensive talent. And as far as blaming him for not making bad personnel decisions, there is a reason most D-coordinators are not given that power, because it's not their job to pick players, it's their job to coach them.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;249062]Do you truly feel that our offense is worse than it was last year?????[/quote]

I don't think it's really well suited that we keep calling all these outside runs, and it makes it harder to sustain drives... i mean, duckett is averaging 5.5 yards per carry (or something silly) and he's getting like 5 carries a game. last year we used that to take ToP. 3 and outs don't help us win, and throwing 34 passes in a rookie QB's first start is kinda questionable.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Duckett is not a guy that's gonna average over 4 yards per carry though, he doesnt have the speed for that. I like him a lot cause of his size, and I think he would compliment campbell well, but it will be tough to ride him if we are getting behind every game. We need to score on our opening drives nowadays to win, and running duckett up the gut will not lead to that unless we play the texans or titans

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;249085]Duckett is not a guy that's gonna average over 4 yards per carry though, he doesnt have the speed for that. I like him a lot cause of his size, and I think he would compliment campbell well, but it will be tough to ride him if we are getting behind every game. We need to score on our opening drives nowadays to win, and running duckett up the gut will not lead to that unless we play the texans or titans[/quote]

yeah, but early in the game, we were ahead and calling very few runs. in the first half, we had 13 passes and 5 runs (with a rookie QB in his first start)... we weren't behind at that point.

we came out in the 3rd, 6 passes, 6 runs, TD, we're ahead.

then we went to 22 passes, 4 runs, though at that time, the clock was running down.



part of it iss that our running game isn't that good without portis, and campbell isn't good enough to open it up yet.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

Do you think we would have won the game if we called more run plays???? All of our scoring was built on Jason's arm. How many first downs did we make on run plays that werent qb sneaks?

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;249112]Do you think we would have won the game if we called more run plays???? All of our scoring was built on Jason's arm. How many first downs did we make on run plays that werent qb sneaks?[/quote]

2, but you can't run for first downs on 3rd and ten very often, which happens, especially if you don't run ;). an we can't know cause you can't go back and see. they were keying on the run anyways.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;249062]Do you truly feel that our offense is worse than it was last year?????[/quote]That Guy has made the point that Gibbs' offense maximized our talent potential offensively so we could spend more of our focus and efforts on D.

This year the complexity is different. We allocated more money/resources to our offense and brought in Saunders to maximize that. His playcalling has on the whole, improved the offense over last year, cut turnovers, moves the ball, etc. But his situational playcalling is killing us (theres a HUGE discrepency between our yards rating and our points rating), and I think whether or not we are better than last year depends on if you expected our offense to shoot up the charts or not based on the acquistions of two WRs.

I believe that Saunders is not really a big problem in the grand scheme of things, although I as a fan prefer Gibbs' system. But give Saunders some credit, out of 10 games played, we've been right with the opponents' offense at least into the 2nd half 8 times.

It's gotten to the point were we no longer need a dominant D to win. Just a respectable one.

C'mon Gregg Williams, get it done.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;249118]It's gotten to the point were we no longer need a dominant D to win. Just a respectable one.

C'mon Gregg Williams, get it done.[/QUOTE]

Seriously. Before the season I would have choked if someone told me that we'd be the 16th ranked D. Now, I'd kill for the 16th ranked D.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;249075]Pretty good entry. Little too much greg williams bashing, he's been great up until this season, we just took him for granted. The truth is, Williams doesnt have the defensive talent. And as far as blaming him for not making bad personnel decisions, there is a reason most D-coordinators are not given that power, because it's not their job to pick players, it's their job to coach them.[/quote]No, he doesn't have great talent, but 30th?!?! 30th!?!?!?

Try something different, anything different. Don't try to be top 5 with this team. Strive to be top 25. Then top 20. Forget perfection.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

you wonder why our scoring offense is so low? because most of our net yards are given to us by 'bend don't break' defenses. and thats exactly what they do.

of all the yards Betts and Mark have racked up, how many of those passes have been TDs? how many Brunell TD passes have been in the endzone and not YAC'ed in? i know, thats not a stat. but its a serious clue to why we've had endzone troubles. Brunell's horizontal game couldn't break through defenses as the field got shorter and that's why all of Brunell's 'productivity' has been utterly moot.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=illdefined;249121]you wonder why our scoring offense is so low? because most of our net yards are given to us by 'bend don't break' defenses. and thats exactly what they do.

of all the yards Betts and Mark have racked up, how many of those passes have been TDs? how many Brunell TD passes have been in the endzone and not YAC'ed in? i know, thats not a stat. but its a serious clue to why we've had endzone troubles. Brunell's horizontal game couldn't break through defenses as the field got shorter and that's why all of Brunell's 'productivity' has been utterly moot.[/quote]I don't know what constitues a "bend don't break" defense (because no defense tries to be bad with a lot of field behind them and then decides to step it up, so it has to be a philosophy thing), and I'm not sure there's anyway to prove that most of the teams we have played this year do that. I'm not completely sold yet that "bend don't break defense" is a term that the talking heads just made up to describe a defense that seems to get lucky at oppertune times (because luck is a significant part of the game, but no expert wants to admit that). But at the least, it's an interesting theroy.

Brunell's horizontal game was money in the red zone last year as we had no goalline running game early on last season. This season, the only thing that changed was the coordinator (well, and we lost Robert Royal, which is bigger than anyone realizes), so it would be hard to blame the players for any dropoff in redzone efficency. I think one contributing factor is that we have fewer field goals this season because our range has declined significantly. We are doing more punting from inside the opponents 45 this season than any other team.

At least Frost is having a good year.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;249127]This season, the only thing that changed was the coordinator (well, and we lost Robert Royal, which is bigger than anyone realizes), so it would be hard to blame the players for any dropoff in redzone efficency.[/QUOTE]

That assumes that player performance is a constant, which it is not.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;249129]That assumes that player performance is a constant, which it is not.[/quote]Well, of course not. But here I'm just talking about RED ZONE efficency. So if we had the same 5 guys on the line last year, Portis (for most of the year til this point), Moss, Cooley, and Brunell (9 games til this point), I don't think all of sudden these players would forget how to score.

The big difference is the playcalling. Too many times just outside of FG range, we throw on second and third incomplete, and have to punt rather than kick the FG. Too many times in the red zone, we run against stacked D's rather than throw, and end up settling for the FG.

And Gibbs does get a bit conservative on 4th down, not going for it on an inches situation where a FG almost doesnt help at all. But that was an issue last year also.

So yeah, player production is hardly standard, but we are doing stuff differently in the opponents end this year. We are there a lot more than last year (because of the playcalling), and we aren't scoring any more points than last year (because of the playcalling). That screams situational playcalling problem.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;249127]I don't know what constitues a "bend don't break" defense (because no defense tries to be bad with a lot of field behind them and then decides to step it up, so it has to be a philosophy thing), and I'm not sure there's anyway to prove that most of the teams we have played this year do that. I'm not completely sold yet that "bend don't break defense" is a term that the talking heads just made up to describe a defense that seems to get lucky at oppertune times (because luck is a significant part of the game, but no expert wants to admit that). But at the least, it's an interesting theroy.

Brunell's horizontal game was money in the red zone last year as we had no goalline running game early on last season. This season, the only thing that changed was the coordinator (well, and we lost Robert Royal, which is bigger than anyone realizes), so it would be hard to blame the players for any dropoff in redzone efficency. I think one contributing factor is that we have fewer field goals this season because our range has declined significantly. We are doing more punting from inside the opponents 45 this season than any other team.

At least Frost is having a good year.[/QUOTE]

it's always strange hearing "Luck is a significant part of the game" from the resident Warpath stat-evangelist.

"bend don't break" is most certainly a defensive philosophy, just ask "10yd cushion" Rogers about it (he just does it TOO far up). setting your defensive backs in an umbrella around the first down marker will give you the yards underneath but limit the gain. that's why everyone here was clamoring for an actual passing threat that can attack secondarys and god forbid, throw PAST their safeties. something Jason Campbell very amply represents.

last year we had a vertical running game to offset the horizontal passing game. that part i obviously don't blame on Brunell, but i can put some of the blame of this year's lack of production with the horizontal run game on no.8. if Brunell was more of a vertical threat, defenses wouldn't clamp down on the sides so much, right where CP would run to (and ultimately get hurt)

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

I think the offense has shown some signs this year, even with MB--the TX and JAx games it worked well. I have much more faith in the offense improving and the system clicking with the folks we have, especially given JC. I really believe it will come. Further, I do think that Gibbs will find a way to make the offense go, even though it'll still be Saunders at the helm. I believe the offense can work.

The defense, though, is much, much more worrisome. THere's a place where there is likely bitching, and WIlliams is not some warm, fuzzy guy. Nor is Lindsay. I wonder if Williams will take the fall this year, and Blache will get the reins on D? Then Saunders can be the heir apparent without rival, Gibbs can oversee the whole she-bang, and off we'll go. BUt my guess is Gibbs loyalty to Williams will prevent this, and Snyder won't dare meddle. So unless Williams falls on his sword, we'll continue on and hopefully things will get better. Remember: winning cures everything.

(PS: Is it just me, or is Williams really putting on the pounds? He looked almost Tuna-like at times... coulda been the TV at the Bar, though.)

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=firstdown;249060]Give us an example of this growing rift between players and coaches your feeling is not being felt here. Are you making up problems that may exist for the sake of talking about a made up scenario.[/quote]
1. The Portis situation. He says one thing about his injury and availability, the coaches say something else. He gets winded in games and takes himself out and Saunders' is stunned. He never seemed to enjoy this season and I think it went beyond his own injuries.

2. The Duckett situation. The message it sent to the RBs on the team when Portis went down. The lack of utilizing him throughout the season.

3. The Wide Receivers. Have heard Lloyd remark several times that he just runs the plays that the coaches call. Santana Moss has also been more melancholy than usual.

4. The O line. Jansen in particular often mentions that the Skins' should pound the rock more than the gameplan dictates.

And that is just the offense. Jason La Canafora dissects the defensive disconnect quite well in today's Post blog (props to SouperMeister for beating me to that reference)...

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

look at the article - "defense rests..." from today's washpost. I can't recall reading more quotes from players about coaching ever.
NYCSkin may have a point. Of course when things go wrong, some will always look to blame someone else, both players & coaches could be guilty of that.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[quote=That Guy;249083]I don't think it's really well suited that we keep calling all these outside runs, and it makes it harder to sustain drives... i mean, duckett is averaging 5.5 yards per carry (or something silly) and he's getting like 5 carries a game. last year we used that to take ToP. 3 and outs don't help us win, and throwing 34 passes in a rookie QB's first start is kinda questionable.[/quote]

The outside runs are part of Saunders offense that helped P. Holmes and L.Johnson set records. We can't run up the middle all the time. You have to be diverse in your running game. And what are we suppose to do when we get behind. Run? People keep crying about the 34 passes. TB held the ball the whole game and they got ahead.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;249402]look at the article - "defense rests..." from today's washpost. I can't recall reading more quotes from players about coaching ever.
NYCSkin may have a point. Of course when things go wrong, some will always look to blame someone else, both players & coaches could be guilty of that.[/QUOTE]

But it happens all around the league, in every sport. Winning teams and losing teams.

Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches
 

i also don't believe that betts can carry a heavy load, i'd max him out at 25 carries before he starts losing steam and fumbling, hopefully duckett isnt the same.