Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Throughout the season we’ve been debating Gibbs or Saunders. Can their philosophies coexist? Do their personalities clash? Should Gibbs take tighter control of the offense? Should we give Saunders his walking papers?

But let me throw this out here, are we talking about the wrong offensive coaches? Little things, like dropping passes, running tight routes, blocking, these are problems on a lower level of the offense. This is the stuff the position coaches should be working on right? This isn’t about scheme really this is about basic fundamentals.

So I guess my question is do our coaching problems really lie with coaches like Bill Lazor, Earnest Byner, and Stan Hixon and not the big picture guys (Saunders and Gibbs)

Anyway, just some food for thought

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I think when stuff starts rolling down hill (ie. 4-8) there is a higher percentage of things like dropped passes and blocking.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;256737]Throughout the season we’ve been debating Gibbs or Saunders. Can their philosophies coexist? Do their personalities clash? Should Gibbs take tighter control of the offense? Should we give Saunders his walking papers?

But let me throw this out here, are we talking about the wrong offensive coaches? Little things, like dropping passes, running tight routes, blocking, these are problems on a lower level of the offense. This is the stuff the position coaches should be working on right? This isn’t about scheme really this is about basic fundamentals.

So I guess my question is do our coaching problems really lie with coaches like Bill Lazor, Earnest Byner, and Stan Hixon and not the big picture guys (Saunders and Gibbs)

Anyway, just some food for thought[/QUOTE]

This kinda goes back to the Friend Article - If the assistants aren't doing their jobs whose fault is that. If the proper emphasis is not being put on fundamentals, that's gotta be on the coordinators and, ultimately, the head coach. If they aren't tackling - then drill'em on it. Make sure that the position coaches ARE doing their jobs.

With that said, I bet we see some significant willowing and possibly consiladation in the coaching ranks next year.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;256737]Throughout the season we’ve been debating Gibbs or Saunders. Can their philosophies coexist? Do their personalities clash? Should Gibbs take tighter control of the offense? Should we give Saunders his walking papers?

But let me throw this out here, are we talking about the wrong offensive coaches? Little things, like dropping passes, running tight routes, blocking, these are problems on a lower level of the offense. This is the stuff the position coaches should be working on right? This isn’t about scheme really this is about basic fundamentals.

So I guess my question is do our coaching problems really lie with coaches like Bill Lazor, Earnest Byner, and Stan Hixon and not the big picture guys (Saunders and Gibbs)

Anyway, just some food for thought[/QUOTE]

That's just it. You're talking about "the basics" and technique which is taught by those coaches. I think you may be onto something there. And that is why I have said all along, to look at the big picture...all the parts! Not just to lay blame at the head coach and be done with it.

Who were the position coaches during Gibbs I? Or did they have position coaches back then?

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Like someone already said, if the position coaches aren't getting it done, the guys above them need to step in.

Perhaps this all goes back to the too many chefs in the kitchen theory?

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I personaly believe Joe Bugel has completely lost his touch and this thread does make me wonder about others, but it all goes back to Gibbs being so very loyal and therefore the team might actually be suffering from this usually great quality that our head coach has.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I think the lost of DeWayne Walker can't be under estimated, that's for sure.

Essentially, I think everything has to be on the table after the year is over.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Gibbs would be to blame ultimately if his coaching staff is not getting their job done. Maybe he was trying to take more of a hands-off approach and let the coaches do their thing which with some people doesn't work. All of the coaches have talented players at every position. I wonder if they feel they can slack off a bit because they think their players are coached well enough as it is. A stretch, I know, but sometimes when you think you've got something good you don't pay as much attention to detail until you're already behind and struggling to catch up to everyone else.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

These players are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS, the coaches can only do so much. The players have to perform. It’s not like route running and catching the ball is new to them.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Nice try at a diversion from the Gibbs hating.

All of the players on this team are pros and most have played organized football since the age of 6. These guys would have never made it on their High School Football team if they were unable to “master” the basics.

The lack of tackeling, blocking and catching would be due to lack of performance. If you are suggesting these assistant coaches are not motivating their players, then I would suggest you look at Gibbs mannerisms on and off the sidelines.

Gibbs look likes a deer caught in the head lights. He shows no emotions either positive or negative.

The entire team (including coaches) is a reflection on how Gibbs conducts himself.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=61cad;256768]Nice try at a diversion from the Gibbs hating.

All of the players on this team are pros and most have played organized football since the age of 6. These guys would have never made it on their High School Football team if they were unable to “master” the basics.

The lack of tackeling, blocking and catching would be due to lack of performance. If you are suggesting these assistant coaches are not motivating their players, then I would suggest you look at Gibbs mannerisms on and off the sidelines.

Gibbs look likes a deer caught in the head lights. He shows no emotions either positive or negative.

The entire team (including coaches) is a reflection on how Gibbs conducts himself.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean by "nice try at a diversion from the Gibbs hating" But anyhow, I agree that they should have mastered the basics at a young age. But I believe that even if you know it like the back of your hand, you still have to practice it repeatedly.

I understand that ultimately the responsibility lies with Gibbs, but he can't (nor can any coach on any team) realistically be expected to be involved in every aspect of every drill of every unit. He has to trust the position coaches to do their job on a daily basis throughout the week. I'm not saying they're not, I'm just saying what if the job there doing just isn't good enough.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

So TO is a reflection of how Andy Reid and Bill Parcell's conduct themselves? Please, some of these guys aren't trying to conduct themselves as professionals. They're relying on their natural god-given ability to play football. If given the chance to slack and make millions while doing, some will. Count on it.

Also, Gibbs does not look like a deer caught in the headlights. Wide-eyed and stock still? He seems pretty composed to me. Smart enough not to allow emotions dictate his decision making process.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I'll say this in Gibbs' defense, there probably aren't more than five coaches in the entire NFL that work harder and grind like Joe Gibbs does.

I distinctly remember the week he returned he was if he ever considered coaching another team like Bill Parcells. He responded, "It never crossed my mind, I'm a Redskin....I couldn't see myself coaching anywhere other than Washington D.C."

That statement blew me away because coaches and players come out of retirement all the time or drag out their retirement with various teams all the time. But Gibbs chose to come back to his roots and risk failure and ridicule, which says a lot.

The reason I bring this up in this thread, is because I wonder if his 'lieutenants' have that same selfless spirit and mind set when it comes to turning this franchise around. To Joe Gibbs this isn't simply a vocation, but it's a calling. And I'm not sure that his supporting cast see it the same way.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Here's a question about the "too many cooks" issue--do we have a much bigger staff than other teams? Or is it just that we pay the most, and give our assistants more powerful sounding titles--"assistant head coach offense" etc?

HOw differently are other teams structured?

I agree that fundamentals are lacking. But the coaches have an influence on that by how they manage and encourage, or rebuke, their palyers. Imagined what happened when you didn't do the fundamentals on a Vince Lombardi team. But clearly Gibbs knows how to get a team playing mistake free--his 80's teams were that way.

SO much of the game is mental, that when one thing goes wrong, it can snowball, as AB's NB pointed out. We're seeing a lot of that here.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=JWsleep;256778]Here's a question about the "too many cooks" issue--do we have a much bigger staff than other teams? Or is it just that we pay the most, and give our assistants more powerful sounding titles--"assistant head coach offense" etc?

HOw differently are other teams structured?

I agree that fundamentals are lacking. But the coaches have an influence on that by how they manage and encourage, or rebuke, their palyers. Imagined what happened when you didn't do the fundamentals on a Vince Lombardi team. But clearly Gibbs knows how to get a team playing mistake free--his 80's teams were that way.

SO much of the game is mental, that when one thing goes wrong, it can snowball, as AB's NB pointed out. We're seeing a lot of that here.[/quote]

To add-on to that, do we have more than one coach giving instructions to the same guys at a particular position?

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Recoginizing that Gibbs cannot realistically oversee/micromanage every coach as they perform their job, I would hope that he does take the time to review the coach's performance both on the practice field and away from it in the various meetings. Yes, he has to trust he lieutenants but he also has to supervise them and, when appropriate, take them to task.

As for the players failing to perform the basics - that really is a tough one. To make that determination, you'd almost have to see how the practices are carried out. If the coaches are coaching and the players are practicing proper technique but failing to perform that which is practiced on game day - then it's on the players. If, however, the coaches aren't dedicating any time to reinforcing basic techniques, then I would say it's a coaching problem.

Given the complexity of the game these days, I would expect that most position coaches are reviewing and prepping the game plan for the following week and that any technique coaching is a one-one thing done in the course of the game-plan practice. I bet that, unless Gibbs mandates it, that the position coaches are not spending time on basic tackling/blocking drills.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I am a Gibbs guy so I don't mean this as a knock on him but in general whether your talking about sports or the real world...a fish rots from the head down. If those coaches are f-ing up it would still be Gibbs & Saunders job to get them in line and ultimately their responsibility regardless.

I don't really blame coaching at all...I think the fault for this season lies mostly on front office talent evaluation and to a lesser extent injuries. We played the meaningful portion of our schedule without ever having Portis and Springs healthy and they are arguably the most important players on each side of the ball.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;256771]So TO is a reflection of how Andy Reid and Bill Parcell's conduct themselves? Please, some of these guys aren't trying to conduct themselves as professionals. They're relying on their natural god-given ability to play football. If given the chance to slack and make millions while doing, some will. Count on it.

Also, Gibbs does not look like a deer caught in the headlights. Wide-eyed and stock still? He seems pretty composed to me. Smart enough not to allow emotions dictate his decision making process.[/quote]

I am talking about a Gibbs coached team. That's why a TO wouldn't be a Redskin. Gibbs teams are "Gibbs Guys" you know " a real classy guy". So, with his lack of emotions and things going from bad to worse this whole teams engery look as drained as he does.

Gibbs is so stiff on the sidelines, I am waiting for him to freeze in that "arms crossed" stance he puts himself into every Sunday. Does he ever move?

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=61cad;256786]I am talking about a Gibbs coached team. That's why a TO wouldn't be a Redskin. Gibbs teams are "Gibbs Guys" you know " a real classy guy". So, with his lack of emotions and things going from bad to worse this whole teams engery look as drained as he does.

Gibbs is so stiff on the sidelines, I am waiting for him to freeze in that "arms crossed" stance he puts himself into every Sunday. Does he ever move?[/QUOTE]

Gibbs looks the same on the sidelines as he did when he was collecting Super Bowl trophies. If head coach sideline hysterics had anything to do with winning football games then the Giants would never lose...

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=celts32;256787]Gibbs looks the same on the sidelines as he did when he was collecting Super Bowl trophies. If head coach sideline hysterics had anything to do with winning football games then the Giants would never lose...[/quote]

Well.... Here is a link to some pictures from another thread. Gibbs today and one with the SB trophy.

And you say he looks the same?

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/16144-im-done-gibbs-must-go-20.html[/URL]

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Gibbs through the years has always been very stoic on the sidelines.

I guess Tom Coughlin's sideline gestures are really doing them a lot of good huh?

How about perhaps the most stone faced of coaches in the league, Bill Belichick? What's his deal? Somehow they win despite his lack of emotion.

I seriously don't know where people come up with this stuff sometimes. :rolleyes:

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=61cad;256792]Well.... Here is a link to some pictures from another thread. Gibbs today and one with the SB trophy.

And you say he looks the same?

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/16144-im-done-gibbs-must-go-20.html[/URL][/quote]


don't be a tool, don't compare a sideline picture to a superbowl victory picture behind a podium. gibbs looks the same on the sidelines now as he did in his superbowl years, not too excited when leading and not to nervous when trailing, just calm, always stay calm.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Taking this back to the assistants - maybe we need some more clipboard throwing by Greg Blache.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=TAFKAS;256737]Throughout the season we’ve been debating Gibbs or Saunders. Can their philosophies coexist? Do their personalities clash? Should Gibbs take tighter control of the offense? Should we give Saunders his walking papers?

But let me throw this out here, are we talking about the wrong offensive coaches? Little things, like dropping passes, running tight routes, blocking, these are problems on a lower level of the offense. This is the stuff the position coaches should be working on right? This isn’t about scheme really this is about basic fundamentals.

So I guess my question is do our coaching problems really lie with coaches like Bill Lazor, Earnest Byner, and Stan Hixon and not the big picture guys (Saunders and Gibbs)

Anyway, just some food for thought[/quote]

My concern is with Lazor. When you have as much invested in a guy like JC, then why do you have someone with so little NFL experience in his ear all the time? I would go out and get someone who has a proven history with NFL QB's. Gibbs should know better. I wish they could have somehow kept Mustgrave around. Jim Fassel is also out there. Although I'm sure he has bigger things on his plate then being the Skins QB coach. But isn't Jack Burns and Don Bruex still on the staff? What the hell are they doing? Are they up in the box with Saunders? I don't see them on the sidelines. Just Lazor with Campbell all the time.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=61cad;256792]Well.... Here is a link to some pictures from another thread. Gibbs today and one with the SB trophy.

And you say he looks the same?

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/16144-im-done-gibbs-must-go-20.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Anybody who is old enough to have witnessed Gibbs I will know that he has always had the same mannerisms back then as he does today. That's stretching it pretty fair to throw some flames at 'em.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;256825]Taking this back to the assistants - maybe we need some more clipboard throwing by Greg Blache.[/quote]

No, what he needs is some people that lose sleep over this team like he does. He needs people that bleed Redskins like he does. And this more than anything is the crux of what my complaint is.....I think Joe Gibbs needs more Joe Gibbs' and less titles running around Redskins Park.

Here's a man that left a mulit-million dollar enterprise to try to resuscitate a failing franchise.

Just to draw a contrast between him and Gregg Williams, for instance, Williams has allowed no less than five starters to leave under his watch. Joe Gibbs, on the other hand, holds onto a guy buried on the depth chart like Taylor Jacobs, and a very mediocre kicker like Nick Novak(twice) until the bitter end. The only reason Lav Coles is gone is because he more or less flat out said I want out.

That's not an indictment, but it shows his loyalty.

"But 12th, just yesterday you voted that Gibbs couldn't right the ship."
It sounds like you've changed your mind. If you must call me on the carpet, read everything I've said.

I don't think we have a personnel problem, I think we have a coaching staff problem. I'm actually crazy enought to believe we could field the very same team that will suit up against Philly in four days, and win with that exact line up next year. Yep, the same bunch to a man.

So, we'll see I guess. Okay, I'm off my soap box.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=61cad;256792]Well.... Here is a link to some pictures from another thread. Gibbs today and one with the SB trophy.

And you say he looks the same?

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/16144-im-done-gibbs-must-go-20.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

What does a picture of him smiling at a parade with the SB trophy have to do with his sideline behavior...talk about apples and oranges. Who doesn't smile with the Super Bowl trophy in their hands?

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

The biggest chef of them all on the sideline isnt doing his job effectively. Gibbs is the head chef, AS and GW are his sous chefs, and the others are prep cooks. The structure can work if the head chef creates the dishes and the guys under him prepare the meals.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=irish;256959]The biggest chef of them all on the sideline isnt doing his job effectively. Gibbs is the head chef, AS and GW are his sous chefs, and the others are prep cooks. The structure can work if the head chef creates the dishes and the guys under him prepare the meals.[/QUOTE]

I'm hungry

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;256960]I'm hungry[/QUOTE]

Me too.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I think it's a bit lame to keep blaming Gibbs. Don't get me wrong, he is definitely the one that is ultimately responsible and he is always the first to admit that.

But, the guys under him are very experienced and 3 of them have been head coaches in this league at some point. It's certainly fair to point some fingers at the guys below him. Gibbs has delegated a lot of responsibility to them and I don't think we can say that they have come through with their end of the deal.

Again, everything does ultimately fall back on the head guy. But that certainly doesn't absolve everyone else from sharing in the blame. Coaches and players alike.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Does anyone think that it might be time for Bugel to hang up the whistle? He's been in the NFL for over 30 years now and he's accomplished great things in that time, but what does he add to the team anymore? The same goes for Don Breaux, Jack Burns, & Rennie Simmons. All these are great guys and I'm sure they add something to the team, but do they see eye to eye with Al Saunders?
When Saunders was brought in, how many of 'his guys' actually came with him? I would think he would have wanted to bring in a staff more familiar with his system to help ease the learning process. It seems like the only people who came over with Saunders were Todd Collins and Al's son, Bob.

I might be reaching here but this is just something I was thinking about the other day.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;256982]Does anyone think that it might be time for Bugel to hang up the whistle? He's been in the NFL for over 30 years now and he's accomplished great things in that time, but what does he add to the team anymore? The same goes for Don Breaux, Jack Burns, & Rennie Simmons. All these are great guys and I'm sure they add something to the team, but do they see eye to eye with Al Saunders?
When Saunders was brought in, how many of 'his guys' actually came with him? I would think he would have wanted to bring in a staff more familiar with his system to help ease the learning process. It seems like the only people who came over with Saunders were Todd Collins and Al's son, Bob.

I might be reaching here but this is just something I was thinking about the other day.[/quote]

4 words - Cut Blocking & Zone Blocking
An article last week (can't remember it exactly but think it was a washpost article about the o-line) had a quote from Buges saying something like "I don't like cut blocking but it's almost necessary in today's game."
This shows that Buges changed his ways before the carolina game & had the o-linemen block differently. The old HOg days where the o-line could just dominate by sheer force are over. Every team has speed & size on D.
This could be the result of some interesting exchanges between Saunders & Buges, maybe the result of Saunders showing him film of teams that have big run #s. Notice the last 2 weeks our run game has been awesome. If we'd had it early in the year...

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

I really don't see Bugel as a problem. The line has played well most of this year, not great but well. A lot of the blitz pickup problems seem to come from the backs or ends and even the scheme at times.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=ArtMonkDrillz;256982]Does anyone think that it might be time for Bugel to hang up the whistle?[/QUOTE]

I think Buges has done an ok job preparing his linemen. They were clicking right along last season before Thomas went down, and they haven't really done too bad of a job this season...at least in run blocking. I think it just goes back to having more athletic linemen in offenses that tend to be "high powered." For example, you definitely want athletic, quick linemen in Indy and not big guys who are more tailored for smashmouth football. I think Buges has had them ready for a true Joe Gibbs type of offense, but he too is having to adjust his guys to the new system.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[quote=skinsguy;256989]I think Buges has done an ok job preparing his linemen. They were clicking right along last season before Thomas went down, and they haven't really done too bad of a job this season...at least in run blocking. I think it just goes back to having more athletic linemen in offenses that tend to be "high powered." For example, you definitely want athletic, quick linemen in Indy and not big guys who are more tailored for smashmouth football. I think Buges has had them ready for a true Joe Gibbs type of offense, but he too is having to adjust his guys to the new system.[/quote]

Good point, bugel is definitely a gibbs guy and not a saunders guy, but maybe in the end it will give Buges some valuable experience.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;256984]4 words - Cut Blocking & Zone Blocking
An article last week (can't remember it exactly but think it was a washpost article about the o-line) had a quote from Buges saying something like "I don't like cut blocking but it's almost necessary in today's game."
This shows that Buges changed his ways before the carolina game & had the o-linemen block differently. The old HOg days where the o-line could just dominate by sheer force are over. Every team has speed & size on D.
This could be the result of some interesting exchanges between Saunders & Buges, maybe the result of Saunders showing him film of teams that have big run #s. Notice the last 2 weeks our run game has been awesome. If we'd had it early in the year...[/QUOTE]
I must have missed that article, but it's good to hear that he's not afraid to adjust his style to fit Saunders'.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;256985]I really don't see Bugel as a problem. The line has played well most of this year, not great but well. A lot of the blitz pickup problems seem to come from the backs or ends and even the scheme at times.[/QUOTE]
That's probably has a lot to do with Portis being hurt/out all of the season.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

It was a really good article, I'll try to find it and post a link.

Re: Are We Critiquing the Wrong Coaches?
 

Here it is

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101479.html]For Line, 'Crease' Is The Word - washingtonpost.com[/url]