Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

I thought this topic was worthy of it's own thread. Some of us here feel as though our defensive woes this year could be chalked up to lack of talent, others say it's the scheme, and some believe it's a little of both.

I'm of the [B]opinion [/B]that more than the players, it was our defensive scheme that failed us this year.

Gregg Williams fielded the third best defense during his first year, ninth ranked his second, and this year we're close to last if not very last. So there has been a regression from a statiscal standpoint. That along with a few key departures and no significant up grades have spelled disaster for the defense.

It seems like offenses have us figured us out little by little over this three year period and they know exactly where to attack, when to run play action, and how to keep us on our heels. It seems their game planning have been better than ours.

Most of the games that we've lost this year, were lost in the second half, after teams make their half-time adjustments. In simple terms, [B]we've been out coached.[/B]

Of course the players share in this, they are the one's on the field performing. But if something isn't working, you don't have 5 weeks in the NFL to correct it.

I'm concerned that we'll go in FA and sign Nate Clements or whomever and think that's the end of it. I'm not too sure about that.

Please discuss.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;265312]
[B]I'm of the [B]opinion [/B]that more than the players, it was our defensive scheme that failed us this year.

Gregg Williams fielded the third best defense during his first year, ninth ranked his second, and this year we're close to last if not very last. [B]So there has been a regression from a statiscal standpoint. That along with a few key departures and no significant up grades have spelled disaster for the defense.[/B]

It seems like offenses have us figured us out little by little over this three year period and they know exactly where to attack, when to run play action, and how to keep us on our heels. It seems their game planning have been better than ours. [/B]

Most of the games that we've lost this year, were lost in the second half, after teams make their half-time adjustments. In simple terms, [B]we've been out coached.[/B]

Of course the players share in this, they are the one's on the field performing. But if something isn't working, you don't have 5 weeks in the NFL to correct it.

I'm concerned that we'll go in FA and sign Nate Clements or whomever and think that's the end of it. I'm not too sure about that.

Please discuss.[/QUOTE]

The scheme is fine. You gotta look at it this way: Gregg Williams has had this defensive scheme for years and it has reaped at least a top 10 defense during most of those years. It's not like he just came up with it when he came to Washington. If there was something wrong with the scheme, don't you think opposing coaches would have figured it out long before Gregg Williams even became a head coach at Buffalo? The points I've bolded in my quote from your post doesn't point to flaws in the scheme, it points to regression of the players. We have lost good players who contributed to our defense, and the players, especially on our line, have regressed this year.

Adding some depth with good players in the trenches and in our secondary will turn our defense around next year. There is definitely no need in junking our defense and starting all over with it next season.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

It's both. But if I had to put the blame on someone it would definately be the talent evaluators.

We let alot of good guys go and what we brought it didn't contribute.

The one thing that bothers me about Gwilliams, He never fixed the cornerbacks cushion. Rogers is too far off. god I hate rogers right now.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=jamf;265334]It's both. But if I had to put the blame on someone it would definately be the talent evaluators.

We let alot of good guys go and what we brought it didn't contribute.

The one thing that bothers me about Gwilliams, He never fixed the cornerbacks cushion. Rogers is too far off. god I hate rogers right now.[/quote]


Okay, so he never fixed the cushion? I guess we could go around and around on that.

But we have to be able to compensate for weaknesses. I don't care who we get in the offseaon, we'll still have some weaknesses. Every team does.

I refuse to believe that the talent we currently have on this team is the worst defense in the NFL.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

A combo of both with more of it being on the players. We just don't have the horses right now.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;265343]A combo of both with more of it being on the players. We just don't have the horses right now.[/quote]
this the same defense from 2004 and 2005 , which were both good defenses. its got to be the players

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=dmek25;265350]this the same defense from 2004 and 2005 , which were both good defenses. its got to be the players[/quote]


Whoa, if it's the same players shoudn't we be getting the same results?

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=12thMan;265352]Whoa, if it's the same players shoudn't we be getting the same results?[/quote]
thats the problem. its not the same players. between injuries, and free agents, there alot of differences. and Williams ego thinks you can plug anyone into the system and it will work

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

It's the lack of players. Missing Springs for the first half of the season really hurt. As did missing him and MW these last two games.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

isnt it amazing how different the defense looks when springs is in the lineup?

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;265388]isnt it amazing how different the defense looks when springs is in the lineup?[/QUOTE]

I agree. The team plays with a lot more confidence and much more aggressive when Springs is on the field.

I am so mad about wasting the Picks on Duckett.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

It the frickin players. They can't get off blocks, they can't tackle and they can't cover. What does that have to do with GW? Oh yeah, they can't catch potential int's that are thrown right to them. And sorry but Andre Carter was a bust. He CAN NOT play the run. Just bring him in on 3rd down and that's it. 75 year old Bob Whitfield treated him like he was his bitch last night.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

If Springs makes that much of difference from the corner position, then I think it's definitely the scheme. Again, I think the coordinator has to compensate for weaknesses and flaws. He's responsible for saying okay, we lack this that and the other. Let's make some adjustments here so that we don't get exploited to the tune of 200 yrds on the ground.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=12thMan;265400]If Springs makes that much of difference from the corner position, then I think it's definitely the scheme. Again, I think the coordinator has to compensate for weaknesses and flaws. He's responsible for saying okay, we lack this that and the other. Let's make some adjustments here so that we don't get exploited to the tune of 200 yrds on the ground.[/quote]


Ok we lack CB's so we should drop the safties back to help
But then we lack LB's and DL's so we need to keep the safties in to stop the run. Quite the pickle you would have to scheme from that.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;265395]It the frickin players. [B]They can't get off blocks, they can't tackle and they can't cover.[/B] What does that have to do with GW? Oh yeah, they can't catch potential int's that are thrown right to them. And sorry but Andre Carter was a bust. He CAN NOT play the run. Just bring him in on 3rd down and that's it. 75 year old Bob Whitfield treated him like he was his bitch last night.[/QUOTE]

I know I'm gonna hear about how you shouldn't have to be taught that in the NFL, but does anyone think that's a reflection of the coaching staff. I mean, how many piss poor defense in this league can you say are well coached? It can't all be the players. I don't know if that's they tuned Williams out or what, but one thing that bothers me is his "doghouse." That's bs. I don't like all this, "I don't trust him so he won't see the field." Now, I hate Adam Archuletta, like really hate him, like ever since he was in St. Louis hated him. I gave the Skins the benefit of the doubt when they signed him, but I was fuckin right, that was a terrible signing. Anyway, he may have had a point. I mean, we hear a lot of the same things from him that LaVar was saying when he was getting yanked last year. That bothers me a lot.

And as for the players...Gregg Williams pretty much calls the shots on who is signed to play defense for this team, so that seems to be a direct reflection of him as well.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=Redskin;265408]Ok we lack CB's so we should drop the safties back to help
But then we lack LB's and DL's so we need to keep the safties in to stop the run. Quite the pickle you would have to scheme from that.[/quote]


But it's not a unique pickle in the NFL. Coaches change and adapt with the talent they have. Plain and simple.

Listen, even if we get a stud in the first round, what are the chances of the kid getting on the field at the start of the season. Slim to none, it goes against Gregg Williams' style.

Keep an eye on the defensive rookies of the year and ask yourself if this guy were a Redskin, would he have started and had that same impact within our system?

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=dmek25;265388]isnt it amazing how different the defense looks when springs is in the lineup?[/quote]
Springs brings so much to the D it's unreal! When healthy, he's the best CB we've got!

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=Crat92;265433]Springs brings so much to the D it's unreal! When healthy, he's the best CB we've got![/quote]

I think Springs is good for 8-10 games a year. His days of playing 14-16 games are over. So that's another problem.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

Intelligence is the ability to make adjustments. GW had to change the D because of the players. PERIOD. The injury bug hit starting with Pierson P, Springs etc.. Those players were key to the D's overall success. Other players then had to do things they weren't used to doing(i.e. Kenny Wright starting). When we had the players, the scheme was great. We just gotta get more players.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=Crat92;265437]Intelligence is the ability to make adjustments. GW had to change the D because of the players. PERIOD. The injury bug hit starting with Pierson P, Springs etc.. Those players were key to the D's overall success. Other players then had to do things they weren't used to doing(i.e. Kenny Wright starting). When we had the players, the scheme was great. We just gotta get more players.[/quote]

Right. But like 12th man was saying, shouldn't a reasonable coach be able to adapt to injuries? That's a huge part of the game and no NFL team can expect to go 16 games with no major injuries. So you've got to think, GW couldn't come up with a halfway decent defense with one or two players out? I think that reflects poor depth and stubborness to adjust to the players' strengths.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=LMsexyAO;265441]Right. But like 12th man was saying, shouldn't a reasonable coach be able to adapt to injuries? That's a huge part of the game and no NFL team can expect to go 16 games with no major injuries. So you've got to think, GW couldn't come up with a halfway decent defense with one or two players out? I think that reflects poor depth and stubborness to adjust to the players' strengths.[/quote]
Agree 100%! Can't pour syrup on sh*t and call it pancakes!

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=LMsexyAO;265441]Right. But like 12th man was saying, shouldn't a reasonable coach be able to adapt to injuries? That's a huge part of the game and no NFL team can expect to go 16 games with no major injuries. So you've got to think, GW couldn't come up with a halfway decent defense with one or two players out? I think that reflects poor depth and stubborness to adjust to the players' strengths.[/quote]
The Giants played half the season without their best defensive player (Strahan) yet they're still going to the playoffs. Blame the Gibbs/Snyder philosophy for paying above top dollar for every FA signing while trading away draft picks and letting cheaper depth players like Walt Harris walk. Harris would've been much better than Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph after Springs went down. I NEVER thought I'd appreciate Harris, but he had a hell of a year in SF.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=12thMan;265400]If Springs makes that much of difference from the corner position, then I think it's definitely the scheme. Again, I think the coordinator has to compensate for weaknesses and flaws. He's responsible for saying okay, we lack this that and the other. Let's make some adjustments here so that we don't get exploited to the tune of 200 yrds on the ground.[/quote]


If it was that easy the NFL would be full of mediocre players and coaches compensating for the weakness. It has got to be the majority on the players bad angles, can't get off blocks, dropped ints, very little pass rush. You can compensate for the run and put all your people in the box, then they beat us deep like we have seen over and over. You can't compensate for that many weaknesses with your best corner out for the year, he may be old but when healthy he can play and allow you to put him one and one and guess what no help from the safety over the top which helps the run with the safety in the box.

I can agree coaches are at fault for letting good talent walk.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

It has to be "some" of the players I will not say all of them because we do have some pretty good defensive players but the awful ones we have can bring down a whole defensive unit just like a couple of better ones (like when Springs plays we improve on "D") can bring the unit up.

Williams has proven himself to be a very good defensive mind and I think that given the right couple of player that he can turn our defense back around

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=riggoraider;265464]It has to be "some" of the players I will not say all of them because we do have some pretty good defensive players but the awful ones we have can bring down a whole defensive unit just like a couple of better ones (like when Springs plays we improve on "D") can bring the unit up.

Williams has proven himself to be a very good defensive mind and I think that given the right couple of player that he can turn our defense back around[/quote]

Look, we can point at Williams past success all we want, but that doesn't buy you crap in the NFL. I'm not saying dump the guy, but you are only as good as your last season, and to some extent you survive on reputation.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=skins052bgr8;265453]If it was that easy the NFL would be full of mediocre players and coaches compensating for the weakness. It has got to be the majority on the players bad angles, can't get off blocks, dropped ints, very little pass rush. You can compensate for the run and put all your people in the box, then they beat us deep like we have seen over and over. You can't compensate for that many weaknesses with your best corner out for the year, he may be old but when healthy he can play and allow you to put him one and one and guess what no help from the safety over the top which helps the run with the safety in the box.

I can agree coaches are at fault for letting good talent walk.[/quote]

Of course some of it players, I'm not being overly foolish about my argument. But just as sure as were pecking away at our keyboards right now, next season we could lose a Marcus Washington or a Carlos Rogers or whomever God forbid.

I distinctly remember when we lost C.Griff for a string of games last year, and opposing offenses exploited the hell out of that weakness. Everyone was like, man when Griffin is in the game, it's a different defense. We pretty much agreed, here on Warpath, how important it was to have him in the lineup. Guess what, Springs went down this year, and it's the same song....different player.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=12thMan;265467]Look, we can point at Williams past success all we want, but that doesn't buy you crap in the NFL. I'm not saying dump the guy, but you are only as good as your last season, and to some extent you survive on reputation.[/quote]

OH LAWD NO!!! what exactly did Greg Williams do wrong?

Williams should not be judged this way

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;265448]The Giants played half the season without their best defensive player (Strahan) yet they're still going to the playoffs. Blame the Gibbs/Snyder philosophy for paying above top dollar for every FA signing while trading away draft picks and letting cheaper depth players like Walt Harris walk. Harris would've been much better than Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph after Springs went down. I NEVER thought I'd appreciate Harris, but he had a hell of a year in SF.[/quote]

I agree. I get so tired of every saying Springs getting hurt is the root of all problems. A smart organazation would have saw that Springs was not going to play a full season. He's not a durable player to begin with. They should have been prepared for that. Just another screw up by the worst FO in the NFL.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

it was everything that did us in. defense, offense, players, coaches, FRONT OFFICE, waisting time to switch to JC, waisting time with spending a kazillion dollars on arch WHEN HE DOESNT EVEN FIT THIS DEFENSIVE SCHEME, i mean cmon we have taylor back theyre to crack skulls. also not sticking to the game plan and clock management was a problem. i mean cmon i dont care if were down 239823490823049-0 coming into the 3rd quarter RUN THE DAMN BALL. i think the offseason workouts were a problem, all the hype was a problem. everything sucked. to tell you the truth, and i hate to say it but i am relieved to see this season end. dont get me wrong i still bleed burgandy and gold and i love gibbs and wat hes trying to do here, but we need to make adjustments. the one bright spot i saw in this season was jc and the special teams. we have some work to do.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;265477]I agree. I get so tired of every saying Springs getting hurt is the root of all problems. A smart organazation would have saw that Springs was not going to play a full season. He's not a durable player to begin with. They should have been prepared for that. Just another screw up by the worst FO in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

The notion that Springs isn't durable is a myth, as has been pointed out on this board before. Yes he's missed a few games here and there throughout his career. But other than this year I believe there's only been one other time in his career that he missed significant time (when he missed 8 games). All that said though, they did "prepare" for that by signing Kenny Wright and trading for Mike Rumph (and later when Prioleau went down and Arch choked they brought in Fox and Vincent). Apart from Rumph those weren't horrible moves by the front office.

Furthermore, the Giants nearly crashed and burned without Strahan this year. It's not like they cruised into the playoffs without him. They backed their way in by the slimmest of margins.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

It's all hindsight now, but I remember thinking there was legitimate debate as to whether linebacker was the bigger issue for the '06 draft or cornerback.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Shawn Springs was nearing the end of his career, that Carlos Rogers was a big question mark, and one more push for top-knotch talent in the secondary was needed.

I was all for the Kenny Wright move. I thought he'd be perfect in the nickel position, and was a solid pickup after noting his 15 game starting history in Jacksonville last year. So no one could have predicted his demise after being thrust into the position of starting corner. Rumph, Vincent, and Fox were all desperation moves. At that point, the secondary was already a cluster-fornication and anyone would have been an improvement over the current lot.

Either way, the front office has to be accountable at some point. Sooner or later, some of us are going to have to stop grasping at straws to defend these people and start calling it for what it is -- a dismal failure.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[QUOTE=SouperMeister;265448]The Giants played half the season without their best defensive player (Strahan) yet they're still going to the playoffs. Blame the Gibbs/Snyder philosophy for paying above top dollar for every FA signing while trading away draft picks and letting cheaper depth players like Walt Harris walk. Harris would've been much better than Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph after Springs went down. I NEVER thought I'd appreciate Harris, but he had a hell of a year in SF.[/QUOTE]

Harris isn't twice the player Wright is (not over the span of his career) yet he's getting paid twice the money over the next two years.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

It's players! Springs when healthy was the only DB they had this year who can cover anyone one on one...and then you got Interstate 99 giving up miles and miles of yardage on the ground.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=12thMan;265312]I thought this topic was worthy of it's own thread. Some of us here feel as though our defensive woes this year could be chalked up to lack of talent, others say it's the scheme, and some believe it's a little of both.

I'm of the [B]opinion [/B]that more than the players, it was our defensive scheme that failed us this year.

Gregg Williams fielded the third best defense during his first year, ninth ranked his second, and this year we're close to last if not very last. So there has been a regression from a statiscal standpoint. That along with a few key departures and no significant up grades have spelled disaster for the defense.

It seems like offenses have us figured us out little by little over this three year period and they know exactly where to attack, when to run play action, and how to keep us on our heels. It seems their game planning have been better than ours.

Most of the games that we've lost this year, were lost in the second half, after teams make their half-time adjustments. In simple terms, [B]we've been out coached.[/B]

Of course the players share in this, they are the one's on the field performing. But if something isn't working, you don't have 5 weeks in the NFL to correct it.

I'm concerned that we'll go in FA and sign Nate Clements or whomever and think that's the end of it. I'm not too sure about that.

Please discuss.[/quote]I think getting Nate Clements plus a MLB would quick fix the D, and allow us to be average for a year or two, but we will not be dominant until we rebuild the D-Line. We have a porous D Line, and it's IMO by far our biggest problem. But if fix the CB and LB depth, which can be done through FA, Grilliams' biltz happy scheme can generate a pass rush for us. We NEED to start building the DL through the draft, starting this season.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;265704]I think getting Nate Clements plus a MLB would quick fix the D, and allow us to be average for a year or two, but we will not be dominant until we rebuild the D-Line. We have a porous D Line, and it's IMO by far our biggest problem. But if fix the CB and LB depth, which can be done through FA, Grilliams' biltz happy scheme can generate a pass rush for us. We NEED to start building the DL through the draft, starting this season.[/quote]

ditto. not big LB signings, due to clements and a possible #6 pick, but decent LBs are extremely cheap.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[quote=TAFKAS;265502]Harris isn't twice the player Wright is (not over the span of his career) yet he's getting paid twice the money over the next two years.[/quote]
i agree, but wouldn't the secondary look alot better right now with Harris?

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;265720]i agree, but wouldn't the secondary look alot better right now with Harris?[/QUOTE]

For the sake of continuity from last year perhaps. But when you consider the season both Wright and Harris had, plus the fact that Wright is bigger and younger, then you have to take Wright if you're getting him for half the price.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

Oh boy Walt did have another Int. for a touchdown last night.

Re: Defensive Failures: Scheme or Players?
 

The defensive breakdown is all on Gregg Williams. His cockiness that he thinks the scheme will trump the loss of key players. Second, he doesn't switch from attack to a prevent defense towards the end. Its always an attacking defense that gives up the huge play. That's a problem, because you can't win close games without playing prevent at the end.