No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[B][SIZE=4]Redskins, Dockery far apart[/SIZE][/B]

Jan 9, 2007

The Redskins and free-agent left guard Derrick Dockery are reportedly far apart in contract talks.
[COLOR=black]The Redskins got lucky last season that their line was able to stay healthy for the most part, because the depth is so poor. They can't afford to lose a key cog and don't have any good alternatives behind Dockery.[/COLOR]

-source: [URL="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=177&line=88015&spln=1"]Rotoworld.com[/URL]

as Frank Herzog used to say - "[I]oooooooohhhhhhh boy[/I]"

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

It's still early, I wouldn't get too worked up.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I'd let him go and fill the position elsewhere. He's by far the weakest link on our line. I know he's strong and can take up space, but he's immobile and he commits far far too many mental errors.... especially to report that they are FAR apart... how the hell much does he want??

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=canthetuna;268972]I'd let him go and fill the position elsewhere. He's by far the weakest link on our line. I know he's strong and can take up space, but he's immobile and he commits far far too many mental errors.... especially to report that they are FAR apart... how the hell much does he want??[/quote]


Probably something in the range of $10 million signing bonus - isn't that the expected amount any player wants from the Skins?

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

While I think he'll get signed, the problems are definitely the precedent the Skins have set for overpaying people in the past. He'll want a Jansen-like deal I would guess.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I don't put a lot of faith in Roto world. WaPo seems to have the best sources and this hasn't come to light. I wonder if this is being blown out of proportion? I mean what could he be asking for? He has't made a pro bowl and isn't generally considered a top tier guy. I can't imagine he is asking for a crazy load of money.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I think maybe as far as other teams would be concerned he is. I still am totally confident he'll be signed soon.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I think they learned a hard lesson with the departure of Antonio Pierce. We have Joe2 say as much on several occasions. They will keep Doc if at all possible

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;268980]I don't put a lot of faith in Roto world. WaPo seems to have the best sources and this hasn't come to light. I wonder if this is being blown out of proportion? I mean what could he be asking for? He has't made a pro bowl and isn't generally considered a top tier guy. I can't imagine he is asking for a crazy load of money.[/QUOTE]

Rotoworld is just a summary of stories from other sources. The source for this particular nugget was the Washington Post.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Does anybody else think that they're probably lowballing the hell out of Derrick Dockery so that they go out and give a 10 million dollar signing bonus to someone like Will Shields? (for the record, I don't actually mean Will Shields, he's just an example) A guy who is no doubt good, but will get old pretty fast?

Now, I know Joe Gibbs and Joe Bugel love them some offensive linemen, but would this really surprise anyone if they don't get this deal done? I mean, really, it would just be more of the same. While I hope they get him signed, I'm just not too confident in the front office's (whoever that implies) ability to do so. They seem like they're allergic to signing the guys they've drafted. I really hope this doesn't take a turn for the worse. I understand it's still early, but this wreaks of Ryan Clark being replaced by Adam Archuletta.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Well I hope he doesn't get a Jansen type deal, not because I don;t like him but because as Malcolm said the team has set a precedent of signing folks to ridiculous deals.The Betts deal wasn't bad I don't think, hopefully he gets a good deal but not a "DAMN!" deal. He get's signed by March I'm sure.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

He might not be considered a top tier lineman, but isn't he considered the second best FA guard out there this season? If the guy from the Bengles (I think) goes quickly we might have some competition for Dock.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

supposed to be a lean year for FA. That helps Doc

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Dock is a nice player but he's not a top tier guard. He's just a road grader. He's can't pull very well and in Saunders offense he likes to get the backs out on the edges. I hope we keep him to keep everybody together. But if he is asking for too much then let him go. You can't keep everyone together in today's NFL.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Even if he's not a top tier linemen to some, he was an integral part of the running successes of the team throughout the year in addition to ranking near the top in sacks allowed.

I'll take that and continuity any day of the week.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;269006]Even if he's not a top tier linemen to some, he was an integral part of the running successes of the team throughout the year in addition to ranking near the top in sacks allowed.

I'll take that and continuity any day of the week.[/QUOTE]

That's what people need to focus on. I'm not saying "give him whatever he wants." However, they need to keep this group together. There are usually some growing pains when an offensive line gets a new guy...see: Casey Rabach. That didn't go so smoothly his first season. I think they need to keep this group together and hope that they continue to improve.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Right. It would be one thing if he was constantly costing us games, giving up sacks and we had a horrible running game. This, "let this guy go because we can sign someone better" is exactly how the Redskins get into trouble in the first place.

Dockery wasn't giving up touchdowns to WRs all season. Dockery wasn't missing tackles.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I guess the real question is what is he REALLY worth...everyone on the planet, including myself hammers the FO (Gibbs included) for making bad deals by overpaying for marginal players. Why overpay for ANYONE even if he's already on the team I mean I hate to see a "Core Guy" go but not if he wants too much money.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

If I'm going to pick between overpaying players on the team and showing some loyalty OR going out and picking someone up and overpaying them, I'll take the former.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;269025]If I'm going to pick between overpaying players on the team and showing some loyalty OR going out and picking someone up and overpaying them, I'll take the former.[/QUOTE]

That's the big point, I don't want them lowballing D Dock and then going out and signing some aging big money free agent. Or someone they just overvalue...Adam Archuletta...If it's between a 10 mil signing bonus for someone an Archuletta caliber player or 7.5 million to Dockery, KEEP DOCKERY! Even I think 7.5 is a little high, but if it's not for a significantly better player, they just need to keep their guy. Continuity goes a long way.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I smell trouble on this one, a whole heap of trouble.

Gibbs has a way of digging in his heels, insisting that Marcus Washington was better than Antonio Pierce, so Pierce should not have been paid more than Marcus. I'm guessing they're thinking along those lines for Randy Thomas and Dock. I'll bet Dock is asking for Randy T money, and Gibbs/Snyder and company won't budge.

Doesn't bode well, IMO. The line will revolt if they don't sign Dockery.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I'm going to allow the prospective outcome on Dockery run it's course. It's way too early yet to speculate. I do however think they will eventually get him signed, he's important to the stability of the Oline which was the teams greatest strength this season.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I hate to hear "far apart", but it is early. Let's just hope that they haven't already offended him like they did w/champ & Ryan Clark by telling him he's never going to get the deal he wants.
I'm gonna say Dock is worth $10 mil. in signing bonus, but only if a third is incentive laden.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Schneed10;269059]I smell trouble on this one, a whole heap of trouble.

Gibbs has a way of digging in his heels, insisting that Marcus Washington was better than Antonio Pierce, so Pierce should not have been paid more than Marcus. I'm guessing they're thinking along those lines for Randy Thomas and Dock. I'll bet Dock is asking for Randy T money, and Gibbs/Snyder and company won't budge.

Doesn't bode well, IMO. The line will revolt if they don't sign Dockery.[/quote]


I am pulling for them to keep Dockery, but if he is asking for Randy Thomas money he is crazy - Randy Thomas is way better than Dockery and it isn't even close. Thomas can pull better than most guards in the league, Dockery is a huge guard but from what I have heard he is not the best pulling guard around. Plus didn't Dockery have a lot of false starts compared ot the other lineman?

If some team throws a massive contract his way you can't blkame the Skins for trying to be fiscally responsible. I know continuity is key, but if a contract similar to Thomas is given to Dock, I would look elsewhere.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=freddyg12;269088]I hate to hear "far apart", but it is early. Let's just hope that they haven't already offended him like they did w/champ & Ryan Clark by telling him he's never going to get the deal he wants.
I'm gonna say Dock is worth $10 mil. in signing bonus, but only if a third is incentive laden.[/quote]

An incentive-laden signing bonus is an oxymoron. Signing bonuses are guaranteed money. You're probably thinking a $7 million signing bonus and a $3 million club option somewhere down the line.

Anal salary cap brigade out.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Why does it seem like the negotiations in signing our own players are always "far apart" and painful. But throw a Free Agent into the mix and all of sudden we have a contract in seconds flat.

It's like we worry about salary cap ramifications with signing our own players but in signing these big time free agents we don't care.

Interesting to say the least and very frustrating.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

The problem with this situation and more situations to come is that the Skins FO has now overpaid for players that haven't performed. It would be easy for Dock or anyone else to remind the skins how much they paid for other players that don't even play.

It's hard for the organization to start being frugal w/ contracts when they haven't been.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;269117]The problem with this situation and more situations to come is that the Skins FO has now overpaid for players that haven't performed. It would be easy for Dock or anyone else to remind the skins how much they paid for other players that don't even play.

It's hard for the organization to start being frugal w/ contracts when they haven't been.[/QUOTE]

The Redskins could also remind Dock how many times a Pro-Bowler like Chris Samuels (who saved Dock's ass more often than not his first year, I'm not a huge Samuels fan but I'll give him that) has restructured his contract to help keep guys like Dockery.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=TAFKAS;269119]The Redskins could also remind Dock how many times a Pro-Bowler like Chris Samuels (who saved Dock's ass more often than not his first year, I'm not a huge Samuels fan but I'll give him that) has restructured his contract to help keep guys like Dockery.[/quote]

Those restructures shouldn't be passed off as some noble gesture, though. In fact, the players like a restructured deal better. They don't take paycuts on those restructures, they get the same amount of money their contract calls for, except instead of getting it in game checks, they get it in a lump sum payment upon signing.

Besides, Samuels gave the 'Skins hell when he went through his renegotiations. Walter Jones had just signed for a ridiculous sum, Samuels knew the 'Skins needed salary cap relief from him, and they gave in and made him the 3rd highest paid T in the league (at the time). So it's not like Samuels specifically has helped the team out much.

When players restructure their deals, they're not sacrificing ANYTHING for the team at all. They still get every bit of money coming to them. It just comes in different forms: lump sum vs spread out over game checks.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;269120]Those restructures shouldn't be passed off as some noble gesture, though. In fact, the players like a restructured deal better. They don't take paycuts on those restructures, they get the same amount of money their contract calls for, except instead of getting it in game checks, they get it in a lump sum payment upon signing.

Besides, Samuels gave the 'Skins hell when he went through his renegotiations. Walter Jones had just signed for a ridiculous sum, Samuels knew the 'Skins needed salary cap relief from him, and they gave in and made him the 3rd highest paid T in the league (at the time). So it's not like Samuels specifically has helped the team out much.

When players restructure their deals, they're not sacrificing ANYTHING for the team at all. They still get every bit of money coming to them. It just comes in different forms: lump sum vs spread out over game checks.[/QUOTE]

Good points. I think the bigger question is if we lose Dockery, will God just create another offensive lineman or will one evolve? ;)
(cross promotion of threads!)

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

One problem I have is the 'Skins will say things like "Marcus Washington makes x, so we can't pay Antonio Pierce more than that."

In a league where the salary cap goes up 7-10% per season, the team has to realize that there is an inflation factor built in. Washington was signed in 2004. Pierce wanted like 3% more than Washington was making, but he wanted it in 2005, one year later than Marcus signed for. The salary cap went up by 7% that year, so since 7% is greater than 3%, on an inflation adjusted basis, Washington woulda been making more.

But the Skins used that angle as the crux of their argument, and no wonder it alienated Pierce, and pissed off a good portion of the locker room. The 'Skins are totally willing to follow the rising cap for free agents, but when it comes to their own players, they pay them based on what their teammates signed for one, two, three years ago.

It's bullsh*t. Pay up for Dockery goddammit. I don't care if it's $35 million over six years with a $10 million signing bonus. He deserves it, and if you don't pay it, you're REALLY going to piss off the 'Skins locker room.

Sometimes I admire the salary cap management and ingenuity of Snyder and Schaffer. But then, I see the team potentially alienating the players with retarded moves like this, and I lose all faith in their understanding of human nature.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=TAFKAS;269124]Good points. I think the bigger question is if we lose Dockery, will God just create another offensive lineman or will one evolve? ;)
(cross promotion of threads!)[/quote]

LOL

We'll regenerate another Dockery.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Let's not have another Ryan Clark situation. What I mean is, let's not low ball a steady performer and risk not signing him and then have to overpay for a less-talented replacement. Git 'R Done.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

You know the funny thing - instead of the team giving Brandon Lllyod a $10 million bonus they could have redone Dockery's deal and earmarked it for him and not have to be in the current situation - I mean someone else could have given them the 30 catches Llyod made and probably even had a bonus TD or 2 which would have been better than Lloyd. Plus you would have had an extra 3rd and 4th round pick! I know - hindsight is 20-20.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Bill B;269130]You know the funny thing - instead of the team giving Brandon Lllyod a $10 million bonus they could have redone Dockery's deal and earmarked it for him and not have to be in the current situation - I mean someone else could have given them the 30 catches Llyod made and probably even had a bonus TD or 2 which would have been better than Lloyd. Plus you would have had an extra 3rd and 4th round pick! I know - hindsight is 20-20.[/quote]But I (and many others) were saying just this at the time of the Lloyd trade. That's not hindsight. That's just the front office giving up a lot to get a guy that, by all accounts, is an average player at best.

Lloyd never really disappointed me here...unfortunately he's just Brandon Lloyd.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=TAFKAS;269124]Good points. I think the bigger question is if we lose Dockery, will God just create another offensive lineman or will one evolve? ;)
(cross promotion of threads!)[/quote]

THAT'S humor!!!
#1311

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=squrrelco3;269022]I guess the real question is what is he REALLY worth...everyone on the planet, including myself hammers the FO (Gibbs included) for making bad deals by overpaying for marginal players. Why overpay for ANYONE even if he's already on the team I mean I hate to see a "Core Guy" go but not if he wants too much money.[/quote]

thats when i have a problem too.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Schneed10;269059]I smell trouble on this one, a whole heap of trouble.

Gibbs has a way of digging in his heels, insisting that Marcus Washington was better than Antonio Pierce, so Pierce should not have been paid more than Marcus. I'm guessing they're thinking along those lines for Randy Thomas and Dock. I'll bet Dock is asking for Randy T money, and Gibbs/Snyder and company won't budge.

Doesn't bode well, IMO. The line will revolt if they don't sign Dockery.[/quote]

They are not going to revolt. What are they not going to show up for work and cash their large paychecks? Boycott becasue Dock didn't get paid? I don't think so. I'm sure they will be disappointed but they realize that this is business. Guys come and go all the time. Look at the guy that left Seattle for Minn? It's all about who's going to pay me the most money. If Dock can't get the deal he wants here, and someone overpays for him, then let him walk. He's a good player buy not the best and he should not be paid like the best.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Bill B;269130]You know the funny thing - instead of the team giving Brandon Lllyod a $10 million bonus they could have redone Dockery's deal and earmarked it for him and not have to be in the current situation - I mean someone else could have given them the 30 catches Llyod made and probably even had a bonus TD or 2 which would have been better than Lloyd. Plus you would have had an extra 3rd and 4th round pick! I know - hindsight is 20-20.[/quote]

The thing is LLoyd never did anything to warrant the money he's getting. Yes he had some highlight catches but does he ever go over the middle? No.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

i want dockery back. if that means a large signing bonus, then so be it. but keep the salary manageable. the players now a days are all about the guaranteed money, anyways