Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Given the recent discussions on religion, global warming, etc. that seemed to be carried out in a civil manner recently, I thought I try one more touchy topic in hopes of getting some actual analysis and insight. I bring it up here mainly b/c I have a respect for the thoughtfulness of most of the regular posters here.

My question is: How do we get out of Iraq (and to a lesser extent Afghanistan). So much American blood and treasure is being poured into the war. I simply do not see an end in sight nor do I see an exit strategy that
does not leave the situation more dangerous to us than when we began the war.

I would like to set a couple of parameters to the discussion, if possible.

- This is not meant to be a thread on "We should never have gotten involved in the first place". Regardless of the correctness of the original decision, we are there now and need to solve the current problem which is, IMO, getting us out of Iraq and leaving it in a way that allows it to survive as a stable democracy.

- This is not meant to be a "Bush is an idiot" thread. Regardless of your support for or opposition to Bush or general regard (or lack thereof) for his intelligence, the question that needs be solved is, again, how do we get out of Iraq.

Just so we are clear. I originally supported the war believing it to be an appropriate pre-emptive strike on a destabilizing force (Saddam) in an important region of the world (not just to America). I believed that a pre-emptive strike was legitimate in much the same way a pre-emptive strike on Hitler in 1938 (when he broke the Versaille treaty and marched an army into the Rhineland) would likely have overthrown the Nazis and pre-empted WWII. I still believe that there was sufficient justification for the strike though am less convinced, in hindsight, as to the need for it.

At this point, however, and as I stated above, the real question in my mind is how we get out w/out leaving a destabalized Iraq that will descend into civil war and, IMO, result in an autocratic regime that harbors considerable ill-will to the US and that will encourage terrorist activities.

Again, it is my hope that we can have real, civil discussion on this matter. I am truly perplexed by the quagmire we have descended into.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

It's funny because this really comes down to the, "Well you can't get work without experience and you can't get experience without work." argument. We cannot have the people still view us as liberators (if they ever did) while we're still there and we can't leave without having the country descend into chaos.

Sadly, I think the two warring factions are going to keep the country unstable for many years to come and there's no amount of military power to force it to be otherwise.

Religion is one of the strongest motivators throughout history and even though the difference between Shiites and Sunnis seems negligible, it appears to be enough to take the lives of countless innocents to be the ones "in power". The only way I could see if even being possible is to find a stable Iraqi force and while Iraqi forces stabilize each area of the country, continue to saturate the areas that are unstable.

Basically move American forces into areas with Iraqi forces, continue to help them build infrastructure and pull out at the best opportunity.

I'm just answering what I think could help, but really my opinion is that we'll never really be "out" unless we just cut and run. Regardless of whether we succeed or not in Iraq, we've already changed the minds of Muslims and EVERYONE in the world. The Middle East will never be stable, thousands of years have proven that, and I'm of the opinion that we do what we can for another year and call it a day (unfortunately).

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Democracy is not the answer for every country, Iraq is a good example. I had no problem with getting Saddam out, he was a murdering bastard and needed to go. However, Saddam knew how to effectively rule that country, with force and fear. IMO, Iraq needs to be broken up into 3 regions. The Kurds clearly derserve to rule themselves. The Sunnis and the Shiites each need there own regions, ruled by strong military dictators who get their power from the U.S. This is going to sound horrible, but I think we need to look the other way while these military dictators get their citizens under control. We have become hypersensitive in the U.S. to what we perceive as universal civil rights, and in a perfect world we would be right. But in order to get Iraq in line, there are many in the radical Islam world who need to be imprisoned or just plain killed. Radical Islam is the greatest threat our country and world has faced since the Nazis. You cannot negotiate with them or appease them, they must be wiped out. After the radicals are disposed of, the educational system needs to be redone to eliminate the teachings of radical islam. These people grow up hearing the Jews are literally pigs and dogs, and that the U.S. is the great evil. We must stop this misinformation, outlaw the teachings of radical islam. So, in a nutshell. Develop 3 regions, Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites. Install military dictators, and back them while overlooking what are sure to be civil rights atrocities for the first couple of years. Then, eliminate the teachings of radical Islam to the kids. Its not a popular view, but I think its more realistic then trying to install a true democracy.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

the middle class an wealthy have mainly already fled iraq, the baath party was completely disolved (which was a terrible mistake, since that killed ALL the operational knowledge of the country), the afgan poppy farmers present a challenge to manage, since they can't make money or build the economy of afghanistan without, you know, making poppy (and they're a sizable chunk of the population).

america has only had two extremely successful nation building efforts in many many attempts. we oversaw the infrastructure construction in the phillipines a long time ago, and slightly more recently, the reuilding of japan after WWII.
both countries had very supportive populations that accepted the help.

in iraq, it's closer to some african nations in that there's no real national unity, only ethnic unity (kurd/shite/sunni), and even within that there are divisions in religion extremism, various anarchists groups, iranian involvement, etc.

the only real quick way to solve it is to divide the country and let them self rule and HOPE beyond hope that doesn't devolve into a territorial pissing match between those factions and neighboring countries... which it will.

there's no real good answer beside turning it into a really restrictive police state, which, in and of itself, it's a pretty bad solution.

the local population has to support the effort, but they've been taught their whole lives that america is bad and have a massive influx of negative views from middle eastern TV stations. there's also no real national unifying figure to help either.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=paulskinsfan;287359]Democracy is not the answer for every country, Iraq is a good example. I had no problem with getting Saddam out, he was a murdering bastard and needed to go. However, Saddam knew how to effectively rule that country, with force and fear. IMO, Iraq needs to be broken up into 3 regions. The Kurds clearly derserve to rule themselves. The Sunnis and the Shiites each need there own regions, ruled by strong military dictators who get their power from the U.S. This is going to sound horrible, but I think we need to look the other way while these military dictators get their citizens under control. We have become hypersensitive in the U.S. to what we perceive as universal civil rights, and in a perfect world we would be right. But in order to get Iraq in line, there are many in the radical Islam world who need to be imprisoned or just plain killed. Radical Islam is the greatest threat our country and world has faced since the Nazis. You cannot negotiate with them or appease them, they must be wiped out. After the radicals are disposed of, the educational system needs to be redone to eliminate the teachings of radical islam. These people grow up hearing the Jews are literally pigs and dogs, and that the U.S. is the great evil. We must stop this misinformation, outlaw the teachings of radical islam. So, in a nutshell. Develop 3 regions, Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites. Install military dictators, and back them while overlooking what are sure to be civil rights atrocities for the first couple of years. Then, eliminate the teachings of radical Islam to the kids. Its not a popular view, but I think its more realistic then trying to install a true democracy.[/quote]

outlawing radical islam is impossible. who gets to decide, what happens to offenders? do you martyr them? that'd be a great way to lose even more popular support instanly :/.

dividing regions would probably result is border issues and much weaker individual militaries to enforce those borders.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=paulskinsfan;287359]Democracy is not the answer for every country, Iraq is a good example. I had no problem with getting Saddam out, he was a murdering bastard and needed to go. However, Saddam knew how to effectively rule that country, with force and fear. IMO, Iraq needs to be broken up into 3 regions. The Kurds clearly derserve to rule themselves. The Sunnis and the Shiites each need there own regions, ruled by strong military dictators who get their power from the U.S. This is going to sound horrible, but I think we need to look the other way while these military dictators get their citizens under control. We have become hypersensitive in the U.S. to what we perceive as universal civil rights, and in a perfect world we would be right. But in order to get Iraq in line, there are many in the radical Islam world who need to be imprisoned or just plain killed. Radical Islam is the greatest threat our country and world has faced since the Nazis. You cannot negotiate with them or appease them, they must be wiped out. After the radicals are disposed of, the educational system needs to be redone to eliminate the teachings of radical islam. These people grow up hearing the Jews are literally pigs and dogs, and that the U.S. is the great evil. We must stop this misinformation, outlaw the teachings of radical islam. So, in a nutshell. Develop 3 regions, Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites. Install military dictators, and back them while overlooking what are sure to be civil rights atrocities for the first couple of years. Then, eliminate the teachings of radical Islam to the kids. Its not a popular view, but I think its more realistic then trying to install a true democracy.[/quote]

Suppressing the teachings of any religion kind of flies in the face of one of the building blocks our country was built on. It's kind of unAmerican, even if the religion is completely bonkers.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

The biggest problem: Iraqi citizens who don't support the insurgency are afraid to cooperate with American troops because if they're seen doing so in public, the Insurgents target them and kill them to discourage others from helping us. That's a dilly of a pickle, I don't know how you solve that issue.

Another major problem: fighters from Iran and Syria entering Iraq. We have to secure the borders along those countries much better. Ideally, we'd have help from the Iranian and Syrian governments. But we shouldn't count on that. We have to boost troop levels along the borders, and be much tougher about who is allowed into the country.

Another problem: Some Iraqi groups feel like they're left out of the political process in Iraq. Especially some of the militias. We have to find a role for them in the operations of the government, and they need an incentive to participate. Al-Sadr for one is willing to be a part of the diplomatic process, but he feels like he's been excluded from the table.

As far as us being able to leave, ultimately the country has to be stable enough for the current Iraqi military to feel comfortable that it can control the country. Either that, or the Iraqi military has to get strong enough to deal with the current situation in Iraq. We have to be involved in the recruiting of more Iraqi soldiers and their training. The problem is, these people are discouraged from doing so by the threat of vengeance from the insurgents.

Very tough problem. I think we'll be there for years (as we should be).

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=That Guy;287365]the middle class an wealthy have mainly already fled iraq, the baath party was completely disolved (which was a terrible mistake, since that killed ALL the operational knowledge of the country), the afgan poppy farmers present a challenge to manage, since they can't make money or build the economy of afghanistan without, you know, making poppy (and they're a sizable chunk of the population).

america has only had two extremely successful nation building efforts in many many attempts. we oversaw the infrastructure construction in the phillipines a long time ago, and slightly more recently, the reuilding of japan after WWII.
both countries had very supportive populations that accepted the help.

in iraq, it's closer to some african nations in that there's no real national unity, only ethnic unity (kurd/shite/sunni), and even within that there are divisions in religion extremism, various anarchists groups, iranian involvement, etc.

the only real quick way to solve it is to divide the country and let them self rule and HOPE beyond hope that doesn't devolve into a territorial pissing match between those factions and neighboring countries... which it will.

there's no real good answer beside turning it into a really restrictive police state, which, in and of itself, it's a pretty bad solution.

the local population has to support the effort, but they've been taught their whole lives that america is bad and have a massive influx of negative views from middle eastern TV stations. there's also no real national unifying figure to help either.[/quote]

EXCELLENT post, That Guy. Nice historical perspective, there were some things in there I was unaware of. Learn something new every day.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Right now I say pull back, but not out. Maintain a permament force presence in Iraq at some removed military compound. Education and employment are the two critical needs for this country. Education to help control radical Islam teachings which make little to no sense to anyone except the ones in power. Employment to make it hard for bored, hungry civilians to want to strap bombs to their bodies and vehicles.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=That Guy;287365]america has only had two extremely successful nation building efforts in many many attempts. we oversaw the infrastructure construction in the phillipines a long time ago, and slightly more recently, the reuilding of japan after WWII.
both countries had very supportive populations that accepted the help. .[/quote]

I think you could add West Germany to the list.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Although the status quo is unacceptable, I do not think that we can simply walk away from Iraq.

If Somalia or Afghanistan looked like terrorist havens, what do you think Iraq will look like post-withdrawal? Iran, and other states, will use Iraq as a staging ground to launch terrorist attacks elsewhere. However, unlike Somalia or Afghanistan, Iraq is not located in some desolate area without any significant infrastructure and far away from large cities.

Although Al Qaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion, they are there now and we cannot simply retreat without emboldening those who think that America is a paper tiger that will run at the sight of blood. I believe that our enemies' resolve to fight is, in part, dependent on whether they believe that we can be defeated. Most think that we will run and lack the determination that they do. The war in Iraq not only affects our present, it affects our future ability to wage wars successfully and our credibility in general.

If people were/are concerned about humanitarian crises like Somalia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., what do people think will happen in Iraq if we leave? The Iraqi civil war is not going to end, it is going to get worse. I've never understood why some opposed the war in Iraq and supported intervening in Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. (BTW, I opposed both Iraq and all other humanitarian interventions).

What do we do about those hundreds of thousands who have cooperated with the U.S., its allies, or the Iraqi government? They, and their families, are almost certain to be killed in a horrible way if we leave and I do not think it would be honorable to simply leave them to their fates.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;287379]I think you could add West Germany to the list.[/QUOTE]

And Kosovo.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287382]And Kosovo.[/QUOTE]

And the Brits built a democracy in India (granted it was upon the shell of colonialism).

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287381]What do we do about those hundreds of thousands who have cooperated with the U.S., its allies, or the Iraqi government? They, and their families, are almost certain to be killed in a horrible way if we leave and I do not think it would be honorable to simply leave them to their fates.[/quote]

Agreed. When we went in there, we created a power vaccuum that led to all this violence we're seeing now. We owe it to those people to stick it out.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Not to hijack ... but did someone say, "iRack"?

[url=http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=22390]Mad TV - The iRack[/url]

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Schneed10;287384]Agreed. When we went in there, we created a power vaccuum that led to all this violence we're seeing now. We owe it to those people to stick it out.[/quote]

I am shocked at the current civility of this thread. many good posts.

Yes, we do owe it to them, and the rest of the world, like N. Korea, Iran, etc are watching closely. I am deeply concerned with every drop of American blood that is spilled. However, combat losses for this war are a fraction of what many others have been.
That having been said, we need to get in this war or get out. Commit the necessary manpower to winning it now, and forever, or blow it off. Install a workable from of gov't and ........."have a nice day". For the record, I do not recommend premature withdrawl as an option here...............or, hmmmm.......anywhere else for that matter.
Unfortunately, Bush has to deal with unfavorable political factions unwilling to commit to this option. It obviously is not luck that the last terrorist attack on American soil was before the war. If anything you read is true, the problems lie (as is usually the case) predomanantly with a small portion of the radical populace. They will have to be controlled, or killed. It's not just a problem in Iraq. Check out the probs with radical Islam in France, and England. It's a world wide problem that most of the rest of the world fears to address. If left unchecked, we will pay for it many times over, later.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;287393]Not to hijack ... but did someone say, "iRack"?

[URL="http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=22390"]Mad TV - The iRack[/URL][/quote]

Take it to the super happy fun thread, please.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

in my opinion there has to be a time table. and like tmc said, once the United States feels that certain regions are secure, then they need to be turned over to the Iraqi people. we have created one helluva of a mess by over estimating the amount of Iraqi people that really wanted a democracy. just because it kind of works here doesn't mean we should will it on everyone. when religion plays that big a part in their everyday life's, democracy simply isn't the way to go

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Schneed10;287370]Suppressing the teachings of any religion kind of flies in the face of one of the building blocks our country was built on. It's kind of unAmerican, even if the religion is completely bonkers.[/quote]


But radical Islam is not true Islam. The teachings of radical Islam teach that jihad must be waged on the Jews and Christians, and that the infidels must die. There is no negotiation with radical Islam, those that are in it preach death to the Jews and to Americans, no compromises.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Hey guys, I didn't read through all the posts, but I thought that this was a really good read on what's going on in Iraq.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/09/AR2007030901839.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

It talks about how President Bush's strategy of a "surge", by all early signs, is working. One can only hope.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=RobH4413;287414]Hey guys, I didn't read through all the posts, but I thought that this was a really good read on what's going on in Iraq.

[url=http://washingtonpost.com]washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines[/url]

It talks about how President Bush's strategy of a "surge", by all early signs, is working. One can only hope.[/quote]

Your right, good article

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Interesting article. It's interesting that the press has remained fairly silent about the [I]relative[/I] peace in Baghdad. I guarantee you that the press would be jizzing all over themselves if the plan was failing horribly. But, then again, the press knows that disasters sell more papers than success stories.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Reading in some of the Iraqi blogs:

"Not only official statements say so (Defense ministry officials said today that attacks are [URL="http://www.radiosawa.com/arabic_news.aspx?id=1163405"]down by 80% in Baghdad[/URL]). It’s a reality I live in nowadays, at least in my neighborhood and its surroundings. It is also what I hear from friends and relatives in other parts of the city.
We are hearing fewer explosions and less gunfire now than two weeks ago and that, in Baghdad, qualifies as quiet."


"Looking at the relative increase in the number of attacks and their geographic extent one can expect the coming days to bring more escalation, but with the amount of power available for US and Iraqi troops I think the bad guys will not be able to achieve much."

-Quotes from ([URL="http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/"]IRAQ THE MODEL[/URL])

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=RobH4413;287468]Reading in some of the Iraqi blogs:

"Not only official statements say so (Defense ministry officials said today that attacks are [URL="http://www.radiosawa.com/arabic_news.aspx?id=1163405"]down by 80% in Baghdad[/URL]). It’s a reality I live in nowadays, at least in my neighborhood and its surroundings. It is also what I hear from friends and relatives in other parts of the city.
We are hearing fewer explosions and less gunfire now than two weeks ago and that, in Baghdad, qualifies as quiet."


"Looking at the relative increase in the number of attacks and their geographic extent one can expect the coming days to bring more escalation, but with the amount of power available for US and Iraqi troops I think the bad guys will not be able to achieve much."

-Quotes from ([URL="http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/"]IRAQ THE MODEL[/URL])[/quote]
DAMMIT, I knew I should have taken????????? Taken?????? Hmm....Iraqi instead of Spanish!! Who knew

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

It looks to shed a little light on Iraq.

I'm very cautiously optimistic. As far as the whole media thing, I'm not surprised at all.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;287379]I think you could add West Germany to the list.[/quote]

west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287381]Although the status quo is unacceptable, I do not think that we can simply walk away from Iraq.

If Somalia or Afghanistan looked like terrorist havens, what do you think Iraq will look like post-withdrawal? Iran, and other states, will use Iraq as a staging ground to launch terrorist attacks elsewhere. However, unlike Somalia or Afghanistan, Iraq is not located in some desolate area without any significant infrastructure and far away from large cities.

Although Al Qaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion, they are there now and we cannot simply retreat without emboldening those who think that America is a paper tiger that will run at the sight of blood. I believe that our enemies' resolve to fight is, in part, dependent on whether they believe that we can be defeated. Most think that we will run and lack the determination that they do. The war in Iraq not only affects our present, it affects our future ability to wage wars successfully and our credibility in general.

If people were/are concerned about humanitarian crises like Somalia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., what do people think will happen in Iraq if we leave? The Iraqi civil war is not going to end, it is going to get worse. I've never understood why some opposed the war in Iraq and supported intervening in Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. (BTW, I opposed both Iraq and all other humanitarian interventions).

What do we do about those hundreds of thousands who have cooperated with the U.S., its allies, or the Iraqi government? They, and their families, are almost certain to be killed in a horrible way if we leave and I do not think it would be honorable to simply leave them to their fates.[/quote]

iraq had stability that darfur etc do not. and though saddam killed a lot of his own people, it's not even close to what's been happening in parts of africa (and they have much more primitive armies and populations that would be much more supportive of ending their enduring civil strife, instead of a situation like iraq, were it got made a LOT worse than it was pre-invasion).

btw, the supporters and iraqi employees of the US are already the ones paying the steepest price in lives lost. while leaving would obviously make it much worse, it's not exactly roses right now anyways.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=That Guy;287494]west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.[/quote]

You're right the Americans had some help from the British, just like they are getting in Iraq. I guess the French did get a token portion in the South. The reunification of both East and West Germany took ~44 years but West Germany (Bonn Republic) was relatively stable in a much shorter time period.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;287496]iraq had stability that darfur etc do not. and though saddam killed a lot of his own people, it's not even close to what's been happening in parts of africa (and they have much more primitive armies and populations that would be much more supportive of ending their enduring civil strife, instead of a situation like iraq, were it got made a LOT worse than it was pre-invasion). [/QUOTE]

300,000 of his own civilians were killed during his reign and another 1M Iraqis and Iranians were killed when Saddam made a land grab during the Iran-Iraq War. It's pretty hard to beat those numbers.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;287494]west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.[/QUOTE]

This is why I think it's so hard to say "the US needs to be out of a completely rebuilt Iraq by year XXXX." Maybe it's our culture, but it seems like no one wants to face the fact that rebuilding a nation, especially one that still has to deal with outside influences that want to build it into a decidely anti-Western state, is going to take a very long time.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287382]And Kosovo.[/quote]

wasn't a rebuilding. it was a UN/NATO provisional government. not quite the same.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287500]300,000 of his own civilians were killed during his reign and another 1M Iraqis and Iranians were killed when Saddam made a land grab during the Iran-Iraq War. It's pretty hard to beat those numbers.[/quote]

1million hutus dead in ethnic genocide in riwanda while the world sat and watched and did nothing (with 2.5mill refugees). 400,000 in darfur. it's really not hard to beat those numbers. aids has killed more in africa (2million deaths alone in 2005).

the iran iraq war results in about 375k casualties on the iraq side and 500k on the iranian side.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;287503]1million hutus dead in ethnic genocide in riwanda while the world sat and watched and did nothing (with 2.5mill refugees). 400,000 in darfur. it's really not hard to beat those numbers. aids has killed more in africa (2million deaths alone in 2005).

the iran iraq war results in about 375k casualties on the iraq side and 500k on the iranian side.[/QUOTE]

No doubt the other conflicts in Rwanda and Darfur were or are bad. My only point was that it seems somewhat illogical to call for intervention in Rwanda, Somalia, or the Sudan based on a humanitarian crises and not think that Saddam's regime was worthy of ouster (considering between the Iran-Iraq war and killing his own people, some 1.1-1.3M died).

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;287502]wasn't a rebuilding. it was a UN/NATO provisional government. not quite the same.[/QUOTE]

You're right, it wasn't a rebuilding, it was [I]building [/I]a relatively autonomous government in Kosovo where none previously existed.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287512]You're right, it wasn't a rebuilding, it was [I]building [/I]a relatively autonomous government in Kosovo where none previously existed.[/quote]

right, but japan, phillipines, and iraq involve new self governance AND infrastructe (water, power, road work, economy, etc).

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

i honestly think rummy has a lot of blame in this. by thinking he was smarter than everyone else (and while you could be smarter than a person individually, 1 vs 2000, the 1 person can't process the same amount of info or know enough about all the specifics needed to disregard everything they have to say).

it's not like its a big surprise that you have to win over the population by providing CONSTANT safety and talking to the locals... the pre-war planning had little contingency planning and doesn't seem like it was very well thought out ("of course they'll greet us as liberators", "of course we should destroy all the operational knowledge and trained military overnight", the limited thought behind who exactly was supposed to lead the new government once it was up and running, etc). which is what really makes me mad.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

it almost seemed like rumsfield had a plan, and no matter what, he was sticking to it. I'm sure one of the big strategies is to adapt to your enemies tactics

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287511]No doubt the other conflicts in Rwanda and Darfur were or are bad. My only point was that it seems somewhat illogical to call for intervention in Rwanda, Somalia, or the Sudan based on a humanitarian crises and not think that Saddam's regime was worthy of ouster (considering between the Iran-Iraq war and killing his own people, some 1.1-1.3M died).[/quote]


there's no doubt he's a bad guy, but there are lots of bad guys out there, and its convenient that we go after this one and do NOTHING about the others.

i mean, mugabe's still running around killing anyone that tries to oppose him. it's just that sub-saharan africa has some places that are in a real bad way too.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

The planning was undoubtedly horrible and Bush will likely be judged accordingly. However, as pointed out, all that is water under the bridge. The issue of how to handle Iraq in the future is a distinct question.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

the other thing is all our intelligence was geared towards russia, and we're still trying to get enough arabic speakers and cultural knowledge on the ground level to get the info that's needed to run full loads of intelligence ops.

i mean, if you speak arabic or go to an air force recruiter and say you want to be a linguist, they won't turn you down. It's a massive ramp up and there's still some institutional learning that's going on about the "new" enemy. that should help going forward, if nothing else.