John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

John McCain gone insane? He ventured 3 miles from the green zone accompanied by an [URL="http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/01/mccain-iraq-stroll/"]armada[/URL] yet he's claiming some neighborhoods in Iraq are safe?

I want to smoke whatever he's smoking. Seriously, I wouldn't dip my toe in Iraq let alone step foot on it.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

while i wouldnt vote for mccain, i used to respect him. he had his views, and stuck to them. now, he is like everyone else. whatever he thinks the voters want to hear is what he says

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/middleeast/03mccain.html?hp[/url]

Iraqi merchants from that same market disagree with McCain's assessment.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

McCain's problem is that he's raising funds much slower than anticipated. (He wants to be Hillary, he's looking like Biden). So he's running towards headlines to raise his profile.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

I was floored when he said conditions in Iraq are improving. When is someone going to step up to the damn plate and say we're screwed, bring our boys home.

He should just throw in the towel at this point.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=djnemo65;294040][URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/middleeast/03mccain.html?hp[/URL]

Iraqi merchants from that same market disagree with McCain's assessment.[/quote]
Funny how it seems that the New York Times will go out of its way to do anything to make this administration look bad. Every other report I have seen has things getting better but it can always be better. I'm sure if I was a merchant that has been involved in attacks it will take a long time to ever feel safe again. To make an issue because of his security is stupid because if he is seen he becomes a very very high target for insurgents so it has to be done. Just look at how we protect a president here in our own country.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=firstdown;294081]Funny how it seems that the New York Times will go out of its way to do anything to make this administration look bad. Every other report I have seen has things getting better but it can always be better. I'm sure if I was a merchant that has been involved in attacks it will take a long time to ever feel safe again. To make an issue because of his security is stupid because if he is seen he becomes a very very high target for insurgents so it has to be done. Just look at how we protect a president here in our own country.[/quote]

I hear what you're saying First, but the same day McCain made that statement 6 soldiers were killed. People here in the U.S. aren't looking at progress in terms of the quality of life for Iraquis, they're measuring it by how many of our boys killed on a daily basis.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=firstdown;294081]Funny how it seems that the New York Times will go out of its way to do anything to make this administration look bad. [/quote]

How far out of the way do they really have to go though?

This admin. has done a fine job all by itself of making themselves look bad.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=12thMan;294084]I here what you're saying First, but the same day McCain made that statement 6 soldiers were killed. People here in the U.S. aren't looking at progress in terms of the quality of life for Iraquis, they're measuring it by how many of our boys killed on a daily basis.[/quote]
I understand that, its the way the paper seems to go out of its way to find anything negative to report. Where is the out cry from them about our cities that have a higher American murder rate than in a war zone? The lose of any of these young men is one to many but we have even a worse problem in many of our own cities. Maybe its because they are run by democate mayors? Who knows. I'd love to see our guys come home today but that not going to happen. While they are there we need to give them the support they need amd not all of this everyday negative stuff we get from the news. If people don't think all this negative reporting does not embolding the enimy they are crazy. They know what is reported and it gives them even more hope that we Americans will give up the fight. Its well known that the leaders of the insugency say that America is weak and will give up the fight before they do. Leaving us exposed to even more violence. Believe in the war or not we have to keep tings more positive. Just talk to our local service men in our area and they are all sick of what they hear day in and day out from our news and media.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;294081]Funny how it seems that the New York Times will go out of its way to do anything to make this administration look bad. Every other report I have seen has things getting better but it can always be better. I'm sure if I was a merchant that has been involved in attacks it will take a long time to ever feel safe again. To make an issue because of his security is stupid because if he is seen he becomes a very very high target for insurgents so it has to be done. Just look at how we protect a president here in our own country.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I see your point. It seems like only yesterday that the Times was going out of its way to hype the administration's case for war on it's front pages, while burying articles skeptical of WMD claims at the back of the paper. But that notwithstanding, McCain's point in this specific instance is idiotic. There are not areas in Baghdad in which western politicians can safely walk. That is something that is contradicted by a more than the NYTimes, including most recently and most specifically by retired four star general Barry McCaffrey who said: "[N]o Iraqi government official, coalition soldier, diplomat, reporter, foreign NGO [nongovernmental organization], nor contractor can walk the streets of Baghdad, nor Mosul, nor Kirkuk, nor Basra, nor Tikrit, nor Najaf, nor Ramadi, without heavily armed protection." Source, [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/27/AR2007032701923.html]McCaffrey Paints Gloomy Picture of Iraq - washingtonpost.com[/url]

Moreover, if you are suggesting that somehow these merchants don't understand the situation completely (and I'm not sure that you are, I am just trying to understand your point) that would be a tad bit patronizing.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

The NYT is definitely as lefty as can be, but this admin has dug their own hole. I find it hard to feel sorry for them.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

Strangely firstdown, the few folks I know in the military told me how low morale was. One was on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border in firefights every night. Said morale was ass, a common question was why are we still here. Luckily he's home now. Another family member went to Iraq for two tours in a amphibious vehicle and said the morale wasn't great.

There's a big difference between supporting a war and supporting the troops. I don't think anyone seriously doesn't support our troops. For the most part they do what they're told. Unless they torture criminals like that one ugly bitch who made them stand in a pyramid and shit (who should go to jail for 30+ years, all of them) I've seen nothing but respect for the soldiers.

It's real American for us to say "They're there. Just deal with it and don't report how many people die per day." There was a large sect of people during the American Revolution that was too worried about hurting Britain's feelings and didn't want to cause any trouble. Who hated publications such as Common Sense. Glad we didn't listen to them, and I hope we don't listen to them again. You can't force 'freedom' on people. If people want freedom and ask for help, fine. We'll be seen as nothing but oppressors and destroyers as long as we're there. The quicker we realize that the better.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=firstdown;294089]I understand that, its the way the paper seems to go out of its way to find anything negative to report. Where is the out cry from them about our cities that have a higher American murder rate than in a war zone? The lose of any of these young men is one to many but we have even a worse problem in many of our own cities. Maybe its because they are run by democate mayors? Who knows. I'd love to see our guys come home today but that not going to happen. While they are there we need to give them the support they need amd not all of this everyday negative stuff we get from the news. If people don't think all this negative reporting does not embolding the enimy they are crazy. They know what is reported and it gives them even more hope that we Americans will give up the fight. Its well known that the leaders of the insugency say that America is weak and will give up the fight before they do. Leaving us exposed to even more violence. Believe in the war or not we have to keep tings more positive. Just talk to our local service men in our area and they are all sick of what they hear day in and day out from our news and media.[/quote]

Hey, I grew up in the inner city of D.C. during the 80s and then went off to the first Gulf War a couple of years after high school. I spent 4 yrs on a Naval vessel which was deployed to the Persian Gulf. So you're preaching to the choir on the murder rate of our inner cities vs. the virtues of fighting a war.

I probably know of more 'street casualties' than I really care to talk about. But your point is certainly well taken. It's just that we live in a culture that, unfortunately, places a premium on what's news worthy and what isn't.

I feel your passion, bro, I really do. But there are no real positives in war. The events of 9/11 made our country very emotional and we stood behind President Bush 110% when he declared war on Iraq. And for the most part, even when things began to unravel, we still said, let's do the patriotic thing and support our leader. However, at some point reason and blind loyalty have to give way to truth and facts. Now that the facts have surfaced little by little, the media now feels justified in taking shots at Bush and his cabinet. People that stood with him in the beginning are now distancing themselves from him. They now stand in stark contrast to the individuals that 'went to war' with Bush in the beginning.

The media, in many cases, are simply echoing what's coming out of Bush's own house, so to speak.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

Iraq was a war the first 15 days and after the first few days it became a quagmire. I fail to see how we can possibly "win" this "war."

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=12thMan;294098]Hey, I grew up in the inner city of D.C. during the 80s and then went off to the first Gulf War a couple of years after high school. I spent 4 yrs on a Naval vessel which was deployed to the Persian Gulf. So you're preaching to the choir on the murder rate of our inner cities vs. the virtues of fighting a war.

I probably know of more 'street casualties' than I really care to talk about. But your point is certainly well taken. It's just that we live in a culture that, unfortunately, places a premium on what's news worthy and what isn't.

I feel your passion, bro, I really do. But there are no real positives in war. The events of 9/11 made our country very emotional and we stood behind President Bush 110% when he declared war on Iraq. And for the most part, even when things began to unravel, we still said, let's do the patriotic thing and support our leader. However, at some point reason and blind loyalty have to give way to truth and facts. Now that the facts have surfaced little by little, the media now feels justified in taking shots at Bush and his cabinet. People that stood with him in the beginning are now distancing themselves from him. They now stand in stark contrast to the individuals that 'went to war' with Bush in the beginning.

The media, in many cases, are simply echoing what's coming out of Bush's own house, so to speak.[/quote]
I'm not saying in any ways to give the administration a free ride but bashing everthing that goes on is not good for us or the troops. Yes not many positives in any war but as in most bad situations there are always so many good stories of man helping man etc... When was the last time that anything positive was reported about Iraq, schools opening, the other 90% of Iraq (not Bagdad) where people are living normal lives etc... Its just not fair to our troops to leave out all the positive stories and its human nature to feel good about yourself when you hear positive thing on what your doing. I'm not sying ignore the negative stuff but just give us some balance to the story.

Deseal, i have a very large military customer base and live beside a home rented to four guys with a total of 10 tours over there. All seem pretty positive and yes I have heard some negative stuff. The guys next door all hate the media's reporting and say that its a very common feeling among the troops. I had this issue before on this site and I think (it was you) who was surprised by stuff I linked because the media gave such a negative view.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

McCain overstated things, just like most Dems overstate how bad things are. I swear that sometimes the anti-war "get us out of Iraq's Civil War and get us into Darfur's Civil War" crowd salivates every time some bomb goes off in Baghdad.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;294071]I was floored when he said conditions in Iraq are improving. When is someone going to step up to the damn plate and say we're screwed, bring our boys home. [/QUOTE]

Even Dems on the Hill concede that Gen. Petraeus and the surge seem to be having a positive effect in Iraq, at least for now.

I certainly understand why many people think Iraq is a lost cause and it may very well be. However, when will such people actually stand up and say "We surrender?" I think we should either stay and fight, or leave immediately, because a half-assed policy of a slow withdrawal is the worst of both worlds. Yet Dems are not willing to call for an immediate withdrawal because they are scared of the political consequences of doing so.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

You the man SGG! Get in it or get out!


Wars Suck! Were Americans, and we are going to continue to fight them from time to time.
For those of you that think we should pull out, what do you think will happen if we did it tomorrow? For that matter, if we pull out any time before the Iraqi good guys are in charge? Do you think the bad guys have had enough and will go away.
It will be a HUGE victory for the Jihadi's everywhere. If not crippled or under some kind of control, we'll be enjoying 911 type episodes routinely. We can fight these guys on their soil or OURS, which do you want?
Bush said from the beginning, we are in this for the long haul. That is what he meant. As in on-going. It makes it hard for them to mobilize large scale operations elsewhere if they are spending their resources trying to keep us at bay in Iraq, Afganistan, etc.
I do not agree with many things Bush has done, but he has kept 9-11 from happening again. He has had the courage to continue his support of the war and the troops to that end. It has, and continues to cost his dearly.
I have had several conversations with current and former American warriors assigned to Iraq. They don't tell the same story the media does (imagine that). According to them, it is the 10% of Iraqi's that make the headlines about not wanting us there, the war is BS , hurting their country, etc. The rank and file Iraqi hates Sadam, and the radical Jihadi's. Would you not? They are afraid of being killed along with their families if they speak or act up. That sort of thing rarely makes the news.
Like it or not, some kind of action is required. If not the war in Iraq, what do you want to do?

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;294098]Hey, I grew up in the inner city of D.C. during the 80s and then went off to the first Gulf War a couple of years after high school. I spent 4 yrs on a Naval vessel which was deployed to the Persian Gulf. So you're preaching to the choir on the murder rate of our inner cities vs. the virtues of fighting a war.

I probably know of more 'street casualties' than I really care to talk about. But your point is certainly well taken. It's just that we live in a culture that, unfortunately, places a premium on what's news worthy and what isn't.

I feel your passion, bro, I really do. But there are no real positives in war. The events of 9/11 made our country very emotional and we stood behind President Bush 110% when he declared war on Iraq. And for the most part, even when things began to unravel, we still said, let's do the patriotic thing and support our leader. However, at some point reason and blind loyalty have to give way to truth and facts. Now that the facts have surfaced little by little, the media now feels justified in taking shots at Bush and his cabinet. People that stood with him in the beginning are now distancing themselves from him. They now stand in stark contrast to the individuals that 'went to war' with Bush in the beginning.

The media, in many cases, are simply echoing what's coming out of Bush's own house, so to speak.[/QUOTE]

I know several people who have been there for several tours. They all say that morale overall isn't low. In fact it has been strangely positive for the most part. Those with low morale supposedly are the malcontents.

As for the Iraqis I was told that the everyday Iragi folk WANT us there. They love that we have tried to help them. They realize we aren't the one CAUSING the problems we have just done a crappy job of solving the problems.

We have to remember that these people have everything going against them.

-They come from a area with a culture that lends itself to totalitarianism.
-They have been ruled with an iron fist for centuries.
-There are insane idiots trying to maintain this type of environment.
-They have spent their entire lives just trying to stay out of trouble and survive.

No where in there is there even a hint of ability to stand up and defend themselves. We shouldn't have expected that we could go in and simply remove a dictator and they would then firgure out what to do. They have no clue. That's what we screwed up. To intimate that it can't be won is silly though. It will just take a long long long long long time. We almost will have to wait until the next generation of Iraqis are grown and ready to take over. I can quibble with our expectations for the war and how we went about it but at this point leaving is the most coward thing we could do.

Whatever happened to Americans nutting up and getting the job done? Being hard workers who did what it took to finish a job, even if everyone in charge is screwing the pooch. I am not saying the bashing of Bush is unwarranted because it isn't I am saying that we need to decide as a country that we are not going to pussyfoot around this type of stuff. We're in it and we need to finish the job whether it takes 18 months or 18 years or 500 years. We're the f*cking USA and we're acting like a bunch of little scared twerps.

I know it isn't a popular war and many think we shouldn't be there but that is irrelevant because we ARE there. That horse has left the barn. Now we have to figure out what to do about it. We have only two options. Stay and finish the job or leave. To me leaving is just plain wrong. We started this mess and should finish it. Leaving now or any time before Iraq is ready emboldens enemy and leaves Iraqis hung out to dry. To me that is a bigger crime than anything. Leaving them to fend for themselves is tantamount to leaving a 4 year old in the middle of the woods in winter. It's our job now and we should finish it.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

To me, one of the most interesting things to come out of this mess is a deeper understanding of politics. I have followed politics closely for a long time but this mess has finally brought me to the conclusion that our system is utterly and totally broken. You can't trust either party to tell the straight up truth and you definitely can't trust either party to simply do the right thing on just about any issue. Both sides are ruled by special interests and party politics and it has ruined our government. On top of that is the realization that not only is there a general left leaning of the media in this country but also the counter weight of the right leaning media types is insanely right. I don't know what scares me more. The engrained lefties in traditional media or the wacked out righties trying to counteract them. It's like the thought process is "Well there a lot more lefties than righties. So us righties gotta be super crazy right to balance it out." Goddman you can't trust the media or politicans. We gotta do something about this f*cked up system.

Rant over.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

Logic would suggest that soldiers, sailors, and airmen serving abroad would have low morale as they are far from loved ones and see their fellow countrymen killed in horrible ways. A lot of protestors argue that they are fighting against the war precisely because they care about the troops.

However, [URL="http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0503/p01s01-usmi.html"]statistics[/URL] do not bear out such claims. The military's RE-enlistment rate has met or exceeded goals for several years now. Moreover, the highest re-enlistment rates are among those units that have deployed overseas. By the way, "re-enlistment" means that a soldier, marine, airman, or sailor decided to sign a new "employment" contract with the military for another 4 years or so.

So, my question is, if the men and women in the military have such piss-poor morale and hate the current status of the military, why are they coming back in such large numbers? Many would argue that the military's re-enlistment bonuses are the reason, but if it's really as bad as people are making it out to be, would $10K really persuade them to re-enlist? I doubt it.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

Nicely done FRPLG. On both posts. I could not agree more. I thinnk this country and our government are out of control. The politicians want nothing more than to serve themselves, and the American people are paying the bills. We are out of control on all fronts and if things don't change, it will not end pretty.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

I don't believe morale is low. They indoctrinate these guys to be ready for crappy conditions and such. That's one thing a lot of people forget. These soldiers in general don't really have the same mentality as us normal civilian types who can't imagine having to be over there doing this. It is one reason I respect them so much. Because they can take a dangerous and sometimes crappy job and keep doing it over and over again with smiles. I am sure there are some who don't like it but there are always people who complain about something. Again I have heard from more than a one person that morale really is pretty strong.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;294141]Nicely done FRPLG. On both posts. I could not agree more. I thinnk this country and our government are out of control. The politicians want nothing more than to serve themselves, and the American people are paying the bills. We are out of control on all fronts and if things don't change, it will not end pretty.[/QUOTE]

I am not convinced that all politicians are bad. I am convinced that those leading the parties are either only serving themselves or just go along because it is the way the system works and they think somehow they can make it better(and never do). I believe most politicians are just go alongers. They can't do a thing without party help and to get party help you have to play the game. The game is BS and party poltiics has to be fixed.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

Everyone knows the Dems are a bunch of pussies. I agree about their half-assness.

But lets get real, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing. We've all walked away from a bad situation in our lives and the same rules that applies to our personal lives applies to our nation. Iraq is a black hole that's sucking up monetary resources and more importantly American lives.

Surrender is just a catch phrase people utter to appeal to our emotions, fear and pride. There is a reason why pride is one of the seven deadly sin. It makes men irrational.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

Perhaps I over-stated the point. I do not believe that all politicains are bad either. However, those that are good, seem to be greatly outnumbered by the unscrupulous majority. We're in trouble unless REAL change occurs. I can't see it on the horizon as of yet.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;294137]To me, one of the most interesting things to come out of this mess is a deeper understanding of politics. I have followed politics closely for a long time but this mess has finally brought me to the conclusion that our system is utterly and totally broken. You can't trust either party to tell the straight up truth and you definitely can't trust either party to simply do the right thing on just about any issue. Both sides are ruled by special interests and party politics and it has ruined our government. On top of that is the realization that not only is there a general left leaning of the media in this country but also the counter weight of the right leaning media types is insanely right. I don't know what scares me more. The engrained lefties in traditional media or the wacked out righties trying to counteract them. It's like the thought process is "Well there a lot more lefties than righties. So us righties gotta be super crazy right to balance it out." Goddman you can't trust the media or politicans. We gotta do something about this f*cked up system.

Rant over.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/02/under-the-influence-how-lobbyists-wrote-and-bought-the-rx-drug-bill/"]This story[/URL] should make you sick to your stomach.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;294156]But lets get real, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing.[/QUOTE]

Except when it creates an even worse situation. I agree that if there were no repercussions from walking away then I'll drive the damn bus over there and pick every last one of them up and bring them home. But no one seems to argue that leaving will only make it worse for us so I can't get behind that. The last thing we need is for Iraq to become terrorist training central. In the long run fixing the mess that is IRaq will be best I think. I don't think just because it is hard that we should leave. I totally don't agree that it is a no win situation.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;294156]Everyone knows the Dems are a bunch of pussies. I agree about their half-assness.

But lets get real, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing. We've all walked away from a bad situation in our lives and the same rules that applies to our personal lives applies to our nation. Iraq is a black hole that's sucking up monetary resources and more importantly American lives.

Surrender is just a catch phrase people utter to appeal to our emotions, fear and pride. There is a reason why pride is one of the seven deadly sin. It makes men irrational.[/QUOTE]

I agree that, generally speaking, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing. For example, if you're arguing with a fool outside of bar and he's got a knife, the bigger man will simply walk away. Sometimes, however, walking away from a bad thing only makes the situation worse. A father who has a troubled child doesn't serve the child well by simply walking away. Sometimes, the painful choice is the right one and burying your head in the sand, plugging your ears and closing your eyes in the hopes that the bad man will go away, or simply running away from your problems is not.

As for "surrender" being nothing more than a catchphrase, its not. Rightly or wrongly, many people want the U.S. to leave Iraq immediately. What else do you call running away under fire? An unanticipated re-deployment of our forces out of the fighting and back to the U.S.?

I am really angry with Bush for getting us into Iraq, but I am not convinced that an immediate withdrawal is the right thing to do and I am certain that a timed withdrawal is not. If we do leave Iraq, however, I would like the anti-war protestors to refrain for the next 20 years from calling for the U.S. to get involved in any civil wars with hints of genocide.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;294161][URL="http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/02/under-the-influence-how-lobbyists-wrote-and-bought-the-rx-drug-bill/"]This story[/URL] should make you sick to your stomach.[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing. I don't blame lobbyists one bit for anything. They have a job to do. The are supposed to garner support for their industries/companies/whatever. Most do a stand up job of it. They lobby honestly, legally and morally. There is a way to do that and most do it. There are some who go over board. Heck there are a good amount. Not 50% but maybe 10% who "buy" votes. But guess what, I don't blame them. They are simply playing the game. The didn't invent the game. Politicians did and politicians are the ones who don't do a thing about it. There isn't one intelligent person in this country that doesn't understand that to end this system the politicians will have to fix it. They refuese to so at this point I lay the blame that their feet and no one elses.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;294156]Everyone knows the Dems are a bunch of pussies. [/QUOTE]

I am not a Dem in any which way you look at it but I tend to think they are less weak and more just misguided for the most part. Maybe I am naive on this but I can't see someone like Jim Webb(Dem Va Senator whom I did not vote for) being weak. Maybe I don't think he is right but I think he'd kick just about any ass he wanted to if he thought he needed to.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=FRPLG;294135]I know several people who have been there for several tours. They all say that morale overall isn't low. In fact it has been strangely positive for the most part. Those with low morale supposedly are the malcontents.

As for the Iraqis I was told that the everyday Iragi folk WANT us there. They love that we have tried to help them. They realize we aren't the one CAUSING the problems we have just done a crappy job of solving the problems.

We have to remember that these people have everything going against them.

-They come from a area with a culture that lends itself to totalitarianism.
-They have been ruled with an iron fist for centuries.
-There are insane idiots trying to maintain this type of environment.
-They have spent their entire lives just trying to stay out of trouble and survive.

No where in there is there even a hint of ability to stand up and defend themselves. We shouldn't have expected that we could go in and simply remove a dictator and they would then firgure out what to do. They have no clue. That's what we screwed up. To intimate that it can't be won is silly though. It will just take a long long long long long time. We almost will have to wait until the next generation of Iraqis are grown and ready to take over. I can quibble with our expectations for the war and how we went about it but at this point leaving is the most coward thing we could do.

Whatever happened to Americans nutting up and getting the job done? Being hard workers who did what it took to finish a job, even if everyone in charge is screwing the pooch. I am not saying the bashing of Bush is unwarranted because it isn't I am saying that we need to decide as a country that we are not going to pussyfoot around this type of stuff. We're in it and we need to finish the job whether it takes 18 months or 18 years or 500 years. We're the f*cking USA and we're acting like a bunch of little scared twerps.

I know it isn't a popular war and many think we shouldn't be there but that is irrelevant because we ARE there. That horse has left the barn. Now we have to figure out what to do about it. We have only two options. Stay and finish the job or leave. To me leaving is just plain wrong. We started this mess and should finish it. Leaving now or any time before Iraq is ready emboldens enemy and leaves Iraqis hung out to dry. To me that is a bigger crime than anything. Leaving them to fend for themselves is tantamount to leaving a 4 year old in the middle of the woods in winter. It's our job now and we should finish it.[/quote]


But here's where the Dems and Repubs split. In fact, here's where some Repubs and other Repubs disagree. What does [I][B]finish [/B][/I]acutally look like? Is is it a matter of duration? Are we looking for the number of casualties to subside? Are we looking for certain 'heads' to be removed and or captured? What will order look like for Iraq? And the bigger question is how long will it take? If someone said, it may take another 5-7 years to get things on track, do we have the wherewithal to undertake such a task?

Are we actually waiting for a complete and absolute presence of peace and cease fire before we say we've won the war on terror? I don't know the answers to those questions and many of our politicians are grappling with the same thing.

Look, many of the Dems are saying if we 'stay the course', as it were, are we just saying we waited as long as we could to satisfy both sides of the aisle. I think the argument for pulling out is, whether it's now or later, much isn't going to improve. So let's salvage what we have and begin to draw down the troop levels.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

John McCain is simply playing politics.

He wants to become president, and to do so, he needs to win the primary nomination. If you notice, ever since he's been speculated to run, his policies have begun to shift towards the right. Duh, you can't win a Republican primary if your not very Republican.

5-10 years ago John McCain was a rebel. It would seem that he would cross party lines over and over on certain issues. You really couldn't predict how he would feel about things. On one hand, he takes a strong pro-life stand, a spitting image of a right winger. However, he has been known to eliminate pork from bills going through the house. Here's a good article if you don't know what I'm talking about.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012501285.html]McCain Calls to Reform Pork Barrel Politics - washingtonpost.com[/url]

He's trying to convince the Republicans that he's not going to abandon the party platform, or isolate the Republicans... especially with the new liberal swing in congress.

To do this, He's done several uncharacteristically John McCain moves. First off, he's taken a strong opposition to gay marriage (his biggest flaw IMO). Secondly, He's supporting a surge in troops adamantly, even going as far as saying that the new plan is working ( and some initial signs suggest that he may be right). He's trying to get into the public eye and win the approval of the Republicans (and not necessarily the American people... yet).

Right now it's waayyy to early to count McCain out, but his lack of fund-raising isn't promising.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=12thMan;294194]But here's where the Dems and Repubs split. In fact, here's where some Repubs and other Repubs disagree. What does [I][B]finish [/B][/I]acutally look like? Is is it a matter of duration? Are we looking for the number of casualties to subside? Are we looking for certain 'heads' to be removed and or captured? What will order look like for Iraq? And the bigger question is how long will it take? If someone said, it may take another 5-7 years to get things on track, do we have the wherewithal to undertake such a task?

Are we actually waiting for a complete and absolute presence of peace and cease fire before we say we've won the war on terror? I don't know the answers to those questions and many of our politicians are grappling with the same thing.

Look, many of the Dems are saying if we 'stay the course', as it were, are we just saying we waited as long as we could to satisfy both sides of the aisle. I think the argument for pulling out is, whether it's now or later, much isn't going to improve. So let's salvage what we have and begin to draw down the troop levels.[/quote]
I disagree with a lot that you're saying.

A very good friend of mine recently came home from his year long tour in Iraq and continues to think that there is a lot of promise there. The military objective isn't this abstract concept that your portraying it to be.

We're giving contracts out to the local population to help set up the infrastructure, and providing them security while they attempt to rebuild the country, while teaching the locals how to facilitate growth, and stability.

We're helping speed along the progress of businesses by making sure they have reliable resources (electric, water, gas, etc...). The thinking goes beyond beating down insurgents, beyond taking the "heads" of certain leaders.

The theory behind it is that as the economy grows, the nation will realize who are the good guys. Quite frankly, the country is sick and tired of all the fighting. They're yearning for stability, yearning for consistency. They don't deserve a surge of troops, and then a total bail out... resulting in widespread chaos.

We attacked initially, I didn't support the war in Iraq. That doesn't mean that this is anywhere close to a parallel situation. We can't fix our mistake by bailing out, we can't let these people suffer because we ****ed up. It just isn't fair.

Ultimately, like I said earlier, It's about the economy:

If there are no places to work, no stability, no direction, then the youth will turn to what's in front of them. Instead of getting a job, raising a family, and working towards a better future, there will certainly be youths joining the insurgency. The problem will rise exponentially without economic success.

Conversely, if we do succeed, there is hope for a self sustaining democratic society. This isn't a lost cause. We aren't here dicking around. There is a clear cut plausible objective, and I think most people don't realize that. They watch the news, see the death, and lump it all into one big mess.

The biggest problem my buddy from Iraq had with the media, is that they don't report all the progress that's being made. We don't see the good, and get all fussy when someone suggests that it exists.

I'm not saying that the place isn't a war zone. I'm not saying that there isn't death and killing, because there absolutely is. What I am saying, is that there is a clear cut way to win, which is supporting the economic interests and hence produce stability and a self-sustaining government.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=saden1;294156]Everyone knows the Dems are a bunch of pussies. I agree about their half-assness.
[/quote]

Are you being sarcastic, because if you're not that's pretty ignorant.

All politicians are pussies. The two party system is flawed, and exists because there main goal is the sustain themselves.

When a politician is elected, his goal, from day one, is to get re-elected. By all means, corrupt or not, your job as a politician is to please your constituents and get re-elected.

That's really the biggest flaw with a representative democracy. If your electing someone, and paying them when they're elected, they'll do what they can to get re-elected. It sucks.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;294194]I think the argument for pulling out is, whether it's now or later, much isn't going to improve. So let's salvage what we have and begin to draw down the troop levels.[/QUOTE]

If it's not going to improve, why don't we just leave?

The Dems know they cannot call for an immediate withdrawal without looking like a Kuccinich-esque wuss. So, out of concern for their own political necks, they let our troops slowly die over time for a cause that they themselves have already abandoned.

I disdain a lot of Bush for being so pig-headed, but I have equal disdain for the Dems who about as principled as crack-head in need of a fix.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[QUOTE=RobH4413;294225]Are you being sarcastic, because if you're not that's pretty ignorant.

All politicians are pussies. The two party system is flawed, and exists because there main goal is the sustain themselves. [/QUOTE]

On the whole, the Dem [I]politicians[/I] (not voters) are bigger wusses than the Republican politicians. Don't get me wrong, the Republicans have just as many flaws as the Dems, but when it comes to the wuss factor, the Dems have that market cornered. The Dems have been fighting that "wuss" label for decades....and for good reason.

For example, Clinton was the consummate Dem - he'd do anything for a few points in the polls (e.g., he actually had his minions do a poll on where he should vacation). Bush, on the other hand, could care less what is in the polls and will do whatever he thinks is right - no matter how wrong he is. Republicans are more principled in my mind, even though I disagree with most of their principles.

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;294229]If it's not going to improve, why don't we just leave?

The Dems know they cannot call for an immediate withdrawal without looking like a Kuccinich-esque wuss. So, out of concern for their own political necks, they let our troops slowly die over time for a cause that they themselves have already abandoned.

I disdain a lot of Bush for being so pig-headed, but I have equal disdain for the Dems who about as principled as crack-head in need of a fix.[/quote]The said part is that we keep putting them back in office. The American people do not care just go out and ask some people on the street whos, Chenney, Obama, Clintons I think they get more times than not, Newt etc... and you would be very surprised how many people have no clue. Then ask the ones with no clue if they are going to vote and for who?

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;294235]On the whole, the Dems are bigger pussies than the Republicans. Don't get me wrong, the Republicans have just as many flaws as the Dems, but when it comes to the wuss factor, the Dems have that market cornered. The Dems have been fighting that "wuss" label for decades....and for good reason.

For example, Clinton was the consummate Dem - he'd do anything for a few points in the polls (e.g., he actually had his minions do a poll on where he should vacation). Bush, on the other hand, could care less what is in the polls and will do whatever he thinks is right - no matter how wrong he is. Republicans are more principled in my mind, even though I disagree with most of their principles.[/quote]
What you call "wuss factor" I call understanding what kind of leadership role someone has accepted.

As a representative to lead this country, once your elected as president does that mean ignoring American opinion, and relying on the fact that you've been elected because of who you are, and that's how you'll lead.

For instance, if an issue such as making the Redskins the only team without a salary cap arouse to the president what is he to do?

Does he pay attention to what the country wants; ie using the polls to influence what his policy on the issue is going to be, or does he hold fast believing that the country elected him to make decisions, and he must make the decision that [I]he[/I] thinks is right.

It's often a gray line politicians must balance, making policy based on there ideals vs. basing policy on what the people want. As is most cases, the best probably lies somewhere in between.

The president has been elected to represent the people, and the only real way that I know to understand what people want is by paying attention to polls.

The example you highligted points out something that isn't really a shocker. Bush relies on his "gut" to make decisions, as opposed Clinton who took into account what the country actually wanted. I guess your right, that's pretty "wussy".

Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?
 

[quote=firstdown;294239]The said part is that we keep putting them back in office. The American people do not care just go out and ask some people on the street whos, Chenney, Obama, Clintons I think they get more times than not, Newt etc... and you would be very surprised how many people have no clue. Then ask the ones with no clue if they are going to vote and for who?[/quote]

Well a lot of that I blame the media for. They have the opportunity to give a more unbiased opinion, and balk every time. Why? Because we don't want it. We want theater, drama, comedy, etc...

We don't really, as a country, want to hear someones policies. We want to know why Edwards is running because his wife has cancer, or why Foley likes little boys, or why Al Gore's house uses tons of energy. So much emphasis is based on slandering one another we all get confused and decide to join a team. We even go as far as waving the flag for our particular party, proud to be a Republican, proud to be a Democrat, put bumper stickers on our cars, whatever. It's ridiculous.

The media has to step up and take charge. Don't report the story that gets you the most viewers. Stop reporting what's sexy, and start reporting what's happening. The media has such a huge responsibility to encourage diligent journalism and instead has pathetically settled for the flashy animations and the aesthetically pleasing graphics and sounds. I can't even watch the news anymore, and forcing myself to read both wash times/post makes the issue so very obvious: It's not about who's right and who's wrong... it's about who spins it the best.

I guess we're all still a big nationwide popularity contest when it boils down to it, and it's disgusting. I really hope we start growing up as a country.