Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I thought it would be better to move the gun debate out of the other thread and leave that one for the well wishes.

As far as the current laws governing firearms are concerned, I don't think there needs to be a ban or that any of the current laws need to be drastically revised. I do believe that there are some areas that need to be addressed between the states and the feds though.

One of those areas deal with mental health issues and the records we are allowed access to. My post in the other thread detailed the problems we are facing in that area. When the shooting happened, I told the officers here, "watch and see if they don't find out that the shooter had mental problems and sought treatment on his own." Again, those are the types of people I can't ask about their prior history and if something isn't done to make sure we are alerted to those types of people, we are going to see an increase in these types of shootings.

Privacy issues should not come into play here. I don't need to know about a person's entire history, but I do at least need to know if their judgment is impaired so much that you shouldn't be allowed access to firearms.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I think they should make gun restrictions as tight as possible. Full background checks and waiting periods should be required to purchase a gun.

You shouldn't be able to walk into Walmart today and walk out with a gun and ammo. I think that's just ridiculous.

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Good idea Lady Brave. I agree that some more disclosure from the government would be a good idea. If that keeps even ONE mentally ill person from buying a gun, I'm fine with it.

I would think it would be a win-win for everyone. The 2nd amendment folks still get to buy their guns and we still get to keep them out of psycho's hands.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Lady Brave,

Thank you for moving this topic to its own thread. Good call

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Excellent call Lady Brave!

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

i think legalization of guns is stupid, the whole reason of the second amendment was to keep a militia to stop tyranny of the government. Sure if everyone had a gun, maybe that guy wouldn't have killed so many people in VTech, but people who are instable are getting guns.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Duffman003;299016]i think legalization of guns is stupid, the whole reason of the second amendment was to keep a militia to stop tyranny of the government. Sure if everyone had a gun, maybe that guy wouldn't have killed so many people in VTech, but people who are instable are getting guns.[/quote]
I'd say more instable people are out killing people in cars than by guns.

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[quote]I'd say more instable people are out killing people in cars than by guns.[/quote]
When was the last time you heard of someone buying a car to kill someone. There are more car [b]accidents[/b] than with guns, but people using cars as a deadly weapon isn't even close. Grasping for straws already?

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[quote=Mattyk72;299000]I think they should make gun restrictions as tight as possible. Full background checks and waiting periods should be required to purchase a gun.

You shouldn't be able to walk into Walmart today and walk out with a gun and ammo. I think that's just ridiculous.[/quote]
Waiting periods used to be mandatory. I'm not sure why that changed federally, but individual states can impose it. Here in NC it's up to the Sheriff in each county if they want to impose a waiting period. Guilford County is five days and the statute says we can take up to 30 days if needed, but the county I live in (Randolph) will process your application on the spot. It's ridiculous.

I just read that Cho had been committed by his parents because they were worried about his mental health. If that's the case then NICS is going to be all over this one. People keep talking about investigating the school for their failure to react appropriately. What they should be concerned about most is why the VA state police wasn't aware of his prior commitment. My guess is that they are like NC in that they only automatically check metal health commitments for concealed carry applicants and not permits to purchase.

I may continue to ramble here and there in this thread. Forgive me, but this just hits too close to home for me. I mean, I was in NICS class this past Thursday listening to the frustration of the NICS reps talking about this very issue and then the shooting happened. It's a prime example of what we were discussing that day and it just upsets me. Our NICS rep told story after story about people like Cho and said, "How many officers do I have to lose? How many people have to die before the government realizes how serious this is?"

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[QUOTE=firstdown;299017]I'd say more instable people are out killing people in cars than by guns.[/QUOTE]

The differences being that: (1) car deaths are almost always accidents; (2) the economy doesn't rely on guns for transportation; and (3) guns has few other socially useful benefits.

IMHO, it's one thing to say we have a constitutional right to bear arms, but it's another to thing to dismiss the harms caused by guns and suggest that they have some significant benefits to society.

As far as the right to bear arms is concerned, I don't put the "right to launch a small projectile at a high speed out of a metal tube" on par with the right to free speech, the freedom of religion, the freedom of the press, etc.

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[quote=Lady Brave;299023]Waiting periods used to be mandatory. I'm not sure why that changed federally, but individual states can impose it. Here in NC it's up to the Sheriff in each county if they want to impose a waiting period. Guilford County is five days and the statute says we can take up to 30 days if needed, but the county I live in (Randolph) will process your application on the spot. It's ridiculous.

I just read that Cho had been committed by his parents because they were worried about his mental health. If that's the case then NICS is going to be all over this one. People keep talking about investigating the school for their failure to react appropriately. What they should be concerned about most is why the VA state police wasn't aware of his prior commitment. My guess is that they are like NC in that they only automatically check metal health commitments for concealed carry applicants and not permits to purchase.

I may continue to ramble here and there in this thread. Forgive me, but this just hits too close to home for me. I mean, I was in NICS class this past Thursday listening to the frustration of the NICS reps talking about this very issue and then the shooting happened. It's a prime example of what we were discussing that day and it just upsets me. Our NICS rep told story after story about people like Cho and said, "How many officers do I have to lose? How many people have to die before the government realizes how serious this is?"[/quote]

You're not rambling at all. You obviously have some great info to share.

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I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.

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[quote=Schneed10;299030]I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.[/quote]Tell that to my buddy who has a carry permit and he, his wife and daughter where attacked. They may have just wanted his wallet and her purse but we don't know what they may have done. When they saw his gun they ran away as fast as they could go.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Schneed10;299030]I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.[/quote]

Owning a gun makes no sense in your world. Blanket statements such as this.............make no sense.

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[QUOTE=firstdown;299032]Tell that to my buddy who has a carry permit and he, his wife and daughter where attacked. They may have just wanted his wallet and her purse but we don't know what they may have done. When they saw his gun they ran away as fast as they could go.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone doubts that there are some, or even many, situations in which a gun would be useful, but such situations are vastly outweighed by instances in which a kid is filled by a gun accidentally going off, a gun being used against the owner by a criminal, etc. I simply don't believe that pro-gun lobbyists can honestly argue that the proliferation of guns is a good thing for society.

I really believe the only legitimate argument supporting gun ownership is that it is a constitutional and long-held right. I would still debate the point, but at least it's a valid argument.

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[quote=Schneed10;299030]I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.[/quote]Owning a gun in todays world make total sense.

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[QUOTE=firstdown;299036]Owning a gun in todays world make total sense.[/QUOTE]

Only because others own guns who shouldn't due to lax gun laws.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299037]Only because others own guns who shouldn't due to lax gun laws.[/quote]
I'm sorry if a person wants a gun and they do not obey our laws to start with they can find a way to get one. Now if we make them illegal for everyone then only the people who break the laws will have a weapon. If I'm correct I believe that over 2 million times a year a law abiding citizen protects themself with a gun. These are the only stats I could find but they do support what I have heard.
[url=http://www.sacsconsulting.com/ccw_Statistics.htm]Ohio CCW Law - Statistic & Facts About Carrying Concealed Weapons[/url]

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I have a pistol, and I support gun ownership in America. I realize that many people die from guns, and we could reduce the number of deaths from guns if they were outlawed. However, I do not support a reduction in liberties for the sake of security. I'd rather be free and insecure, than to be secure but not free. Freedom has costs.

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First off, good move LadyBrave. Kudos.

I'm not too up to snuff on the current legislation and the ins and outs of current laws. But I will say this, if we think that this incident is going to radically change existing gun laws, we'd better think again.

Also, you have to figure the vast majority of existing gun owners really are responsible and are law abiding citizens.

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[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;299046]I have a pistol, and I support gun ownership in America. I realize that many people die from guns, and we could reduce the number of deaths from guns if they were outlawed. However, I do not support a reduction in liberties for the sake of security. I'd rather be free and insecure, than to be secure but not free. Freedom has costs.[/QUOTE]

I definately think that's a valid argument. What I find interesting, however, is that the people who advance such an argument support things like the Patriot Act and similar legislation and the anti-gun lobby generally opposes the Patriot Act etc. Seems like both "sides" hold contradictory beliefs.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Why is it we do not lobby for the outlawing of alcohol? Can it not be held responsible for more deaths each year as a result of those under it's influence? Is the alcohol the problem, or the user?

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[quote=Hog1;299054]Why is it we do not lobby for the outlawing of alcohol? Can it not be held responsible for more deaths each year as a result of those under it's influence? Is the alcohol the problem, or the user?[/quote]

Not really. Moderation is the key. Alcohol in and of itself can't be blamed for anything....except tasting good.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299051]I definately think that's a valid argument. What I find interesting, however, is that the people who advance such an argument support things like the Patriot Act and similar legislation and the anti-gun lobby generally opposes the Patriot Act etc. Seems like both "sides" hold contradictory beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Yep, you're right. From my experience, most gun supporters are also supporters of freedom-reducing terrorism laws, like the Patriot Act. Usually, they are the same people who advocate profiling, and the "kill 'em all" attitude. It is ironic.

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[quote=12thMan;299056]Not really. Moderation is the key. Alcohol in and of itself can't be blamed for anything....except tasting good.[/quote]

YOU are CORRECT!!!!!!! Alcohol cannot be blamed for anything..........and what else cannot be blamed?

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[quote=12thMan;299050]First off, good move LadyBrave. Kudos.

I'm not too up to snuff on the current legislation and the ins and outs of current laws. But I will say this, if we think that this incident is going to radically change existing gun laws, we'd better think again.

Also, you have to figure the vast majority of existing gun owners really are responsible and are law abiding citizens.[/quote]
I don't think this incident will cause any changes in the law, nor do I feel it should. If it does, the changes will be very minor. I think the current laws are fine for the most part, with the exception of allowing non US citizens to purchase and lack of mental health record access. I do think the states will look more closely at how criminal history and mental health information is disseminated to NICS though. Which is long overdue IMO.

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[quote=firstdown;299042]I'm sorry if a person wants a gun and they do not obey our laws to start with they can find a way to get one. Now if we make them illegal for everyone then only the people who break the laws will have a weapon. If I'm correct I believe that over 2 million times a year a law abiding citizen protects themself with a gun. These are the only stats I could find but they do support what I have heard.
[URL="http://www.sacsconsulting.com/ccw_Statistics.htm"]Ohio CCW Law - Statistic & Facts About Carrying Concealed Weapons[/URL][/quote]

This is the argument that most anti-gun lobbyists seem to forget. Cocaine, Pot, Heroine, etc. are all illegal, yet 30% of the country uses or has used them at some point in their life. Making guns illegal will do next to nothing to prevent nut jobs from getting guns. All it will do is keep law abiding citizens from owning them. Case in point; Washington DC has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet it's still in the top ten in gun related crime. What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?

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[quote=Schneed10;299030]I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.[/quote]
we hardly agree on anything. with that out of the way, i agree with this statement 100%.

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[quote=Southpaw;299080]This is the argument that most anti-gun lobbyists seem to forget. Cocaine, Pot, Heroine, etc. are all illegal, yet 30% of the country uses or has used them at some point in their life. Making guns illegal will do next to nothing to prevent nut jobs from getting guns. All it will do is keep law abiding citizens from owning them. Case in point; Washington DC has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet it's still in the top ten in gun related crime. What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?[/quote]

Sure, that's true, but wouldn't that change if they were made totally illegal? Sure, they're "tough" laws, but the fact you can get one period makes it accessible to almost anyone. While I don't want to see the law repealed, I want to see some MAJOR changes.

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[QUOTE=Southpaw;299080] What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?[/QUOTE]

Agreed. A total ban on guns isn't a cure-all. However, tougher gun laws would certainly make it more difficult for would-be murderers to get their hands on guns in the first place. I don't think you need to subscribe to the belief that we achieve perfection to support tougher gun laws.

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[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;299085]Sure, that's true, but wouldn't that change if they were made totally illegal? Sure, they're "tough" laws, but the fact you can get one period makes it accessible to almost anyone. While I don't want to see the law repealed, I want to see some MAJOR changes.[/quote]

I also agree that gun laws need a major overhaul, but that'll only fix some of the problems. A thorough background check and mandatory waiting period should be enforced on all guns. That'd prevent some medicated kid that didn't get picked in a basketball game from walking into Walmart and buying a shotgun and coming back and blasting everyone. It wouldn't do much to deter a 23 year old that lives in a college town(where basically anything is accessible if you look hard enough) from finding a handgun. Those kinds of situations can't be fixed with gun laws.

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I would think that more disclosure from medical records could help. Maybe if someone is admitted to counseling or is taking certain types of drugs, they aren't allowed to have one.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299035]I don't think anyone doubts that there are some, or even many, situations in which a gun would be useful, but such situations are vastly outweighed by instances in which a kid is filled by a gun accidentally going off, a gun being used against the owner by a criminal, etc. I simply don't believe that pro-gun lobbyists can honestly argue that the proliferation of guns is a good thing for society.

I really believe the only legitimate argument supporting gun ownership is that it is a constitutional and long-held right. I would still debate the point, but at least it's a valid argument.[/quote]
Accidental shootings are very rare and people have a greater chance of falling off a ladder and dying than by accidental shooting. Yes, it does happen.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299035]I don't think anyone doubts that there are some, or even many, situations in which a gun would be useful, but such situations are vastly outweighed by instances in which a kid is filled by a gun accidentally going off, a gun being used against the owner by a criminal, etc. I simply don't believe that pro-gun lobbyists can honestly argue that the proliferation of guns is a good thing for society.

I really believe the only legitimate argument supporting gun ownership is that it is a constitutional and long-held right. I would still debate the point, but at least it's a valid argument.[/QUOTE]

I think your argument here is faulty.

First off the instances of children dying or being injured by a gun accidently are drastically smaller than instnces of self-defense using a gun. Just arguing numbers there. If you are talking about the weighting of each data set then that's a whole different argument.

As for criminals using an owner's gun against them I think that is even lower than instances of children getting accidently shot.

To me it comes down to one question:

How many criminals are going to be denied access to guns by outlawing guns?

If we can figure out a way to keep guns out of ALL criminals hands then I am all for outlawing guns but I have never heard of any ideas on how that would ever happen. I think criminals are going to have guns no matter what. Maybe less criminals will have guns but how much will the ones who do have them feel emboldened by the notion that whatever house they are breaking into or whichever woman they are going to attack and rape is not going to have a gun? Guns offer protection against these criminals and taking away that available protection isn't just a bad idea I think it is morally corrupt. The problem isn't guns. It is stupid/evil people getting them. How do we stop those people is what we need to figure out. A kneejerk reaction of outlawing guns for everyone is simply creating different problems. Problems that could be even worse.

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[quote=firstdown;299032]Tell that to my buddy who has a carry permit and he, his wife and daughter where attacked. They may have just wanted his wallet and her purse but we don't know what they may have done. When they saw his gun they ran away as fast as they could go.[/quote]

This is one of the few times when a gun was helpful, but it's anecdotal evidence. I need some concrete numbers to weigh the costs and benefits. The benefits of owning guns are few, but the costs are many. Consider:

- In 2003, 11,290 Americans were killed by Assault by Firearm. If you add up all other forms of murder, you don't even get half that many. The number of murders would drop if guns were outlawed. Some would still occur

- In 2003, 730 people were killed by accidental discharge of firearms. Gun accidents that could have been drastically reduced if guns weren't easily available.

- In 2003, there were 16,907 suicides by firearm. I know a good portion of these people would still kill themselves if the didn't have access to a gun. But blowing your brains out is the easiest way to do it. A number would be saved.

- There were 232 other deaths caused by firearm where the police weren't able to figure out what the intent was; ie was it murder, suicide, or accident.

This data comes from the NSC's website: [url=http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm]Odds of Dying - NSC[/url]

Firstdown, that CCW data you posted is from 1992, before the Brady Bill even went into effect. It's so old, it's completely irrelevant now. Not to mention a quite biased source of information. If you can provide some relevant, unbiased statistics on guns as a crime deterrent, I'm all ears. But I haven't seen any, and I've looked.

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Oh and I don't own a gun and probably never will. But ask anyone who is alive today because they had a gun whether the country should take that right away because OTHERS do bad things with them. I don't think many of them would support that.

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Here is a site which list reasons of death in the USA. Just do a quick stroll down and check out the the different charts its kind of interesting.

[url=http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html#data_usa]CAUSES OF DEATH[/url]

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[quote=firstdown;299107]Accidental shootings are very rare and people have a greater chance of falling off a ladder and dying than by accidental shooting. Yes, it does happen.[/quote]

Yes, but that's because more people climb on ladders than pick up loaded guns.

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[QUOTE=Schneed10;299110]This is one of the few times when a gun was helpful, but it's anecdotal evidence. I need some concrete numbers to weigh the costs and benefits. The benefits of owning guns are few, but the costs are many. Consider:

- In 2003, 11,290 Americans were killed by Assault by Firearm. If you add up all other forms of murder, you don't even get half that many. The number of murders would drop if guns were outlawed. Some would still occur

- In 2003, 730 people were killed by accidental discharge of firearms. Gun accidents that could have been drastically reduced if guns weren't easily available.

- In 2003, there were 16,907 suicides by firearm. I know a good portion of these people would still kill themselves if the didn't have access to a gun. But blowing your brains out is the easiest way to do it. A number would be saved.

- There were 232 other deaths caused by firearm where the police weren't able to figure out what the intent was; ie was it murder, suicide, or accident.

This data comes from the NSC's website: [url=http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm]Odds of Dying - NSC[/url]

Firstdown, that CCW data you posted is from 1992, before the Brady Bill even went into effect. It's so old, it's completely irrelevant now. Not to mention a quite biased source of information. If you can provide some relevant, unbiased statistics on guns as a crime deterrent, I'm all ears. But I haven't seen any, and I've looked.[/QUOTE]

There are numerous self-defense with guns surveys available on the internet and all report that instances of self-defsne via gun per year number at least 700,000. Most of the surveys put the numbers in the millions.

One statistic from a 97 study(i'll need to find a link for it) reports that every 12 seconds an American defends him or herself with a gun.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=FRPLG;299119]There are numerous self-defense with guns surveys available on the internet and all report that instances of self-defsne via gun per year number at least 700,000. Most of the surveys put the numbers in the millions.

One statistic from a 97 study(i'll need to find a link for it) reports that every 12 seconds an American defends him or herself with a gun.[/quote]

I'll need to see it, I'm keeping my mind open, but I need to see numbers.