Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Should be another interesting and controversial release from Moore:

[URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/19/entertainment/main2828102.shtml?source=mostpop_story"]With "Sicko" Filmmaker Seeks To Do To Health Care What He Did With Politics And Gun Violence[/URL]

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

boy, is he really going to step on some toes with this. i have read a while back, that because of his trip to Cuba, this administration was going to try and confiscate this film and keep in from being released. the other films he has i have really enjoyed

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Subject matter aside that guy makes me sick. He's a jerk.
My Humble opinion.

You may now continue OnTopic.

peace

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;311673]Subject matter aside that guy makes me sick. He's a jerk.
My Humble opinion.[/quote]

What's worse though... him or the sad state of our nation's health care?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

That's thing catch-22 about Michael Moore. You don't want to like the man, but you end up respecting what he does to open your eyes to the world without the rose-colored glasses. I can't stand Moore, but because of his controversy, you tend to see things a little bit differently.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;311673]Subject matter aside that guy makes me sick. He's a jerk.
My Humble opinion.

You may now continue OnTopic.

peace[/quote]
why? he may go about his business alittle unusual, but i like how he mixes truths and half truths

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I can't stand Michael Moore because he twists facts and flat out lies to make his point, but I would love to see him to take a shot at the healthcare system because for whatever reason, he ruffles the feathers of the decision makes.

I have a friend who has to take Rhemicade for a condition. Rhemicade is an intravenous drug that he gets every eight weeks and basically allows him to live his life normally(lift weights, rock climb, etc). Without it, he'd be in extreme pain and his joints would lock up. The cost of this wonder drug is [B]$20,000 [/B]per treatment, for 32oz of liquid that is very easy to synthesize and mass produce. Fortunately, he has very good insurance that covers it, but what about people with poor or no health insurance? I'd be willing to bet that if you don't have health insurance, you can't afford 60k-120k per year to be able to live like everyone else.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Ugh. I'd love to go toe to toe with this douchebag in a healthcare debate.

First I gotta say that the American healthcare system is pretty busted up. But you can't blame the HMOs or the drug companies for that as Moore does in his film. The HMOs don't pull mad profits from their business. It's a low-margin business.

I can see an argument against pharmaceutical companies to some extent, because they pull in massive profits. But you can't get all up in arms about one particular drug costing an insane amount of money. People like to say oh well that drug only costs $10 to make and they're charging $100 for it. Well that's because they spent $80 researching other possible drugs and vaccines that were deemed either ineffective or unsafe by the FDA. Pharmeceutical R&D is a huge expense and has to be factored into the equation for the drugs that do actually make it to the market.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;311675]What's worse though... him or the sad state of our nation's health care?[/QUOTE]

What's "sad" about our health care system?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Beemnseven;311701]What's "sad" about our health care system?[/quote]

The fact that if you come to my hospital for an emergency appendectomy and you have a PPO or HMO with Aetna, we'll get paid about $3500 by your insurance company.

If you come in with Cigna, your insurer pays us $6000.

If you don't have insurance and you come in for the same emergency appendectomy, we'll charge you $150,000. You probably won't pay it, but we'll probably force you to give us at least $20,000 and call it a day.

All for the same procedure. So the worse your coverage is, the more your insurance company pays us. Then the crappy insurance companies have to pass the cost on to the people. In the end, only white collar employees with PPOs end up with affordable healthcare premiums.

I'm not kidding. It's common for hospitals to do; it seems unscrupulous but you can't even blame them because of the way the system is set up. If the hospitals [I]don't [/I]get paid that well by just a few insurance companies, the cost of treating Medicaid patients would put us out of business.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

PS I work in hospital financial administration.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;311702]The fact that if you come to my hospital for an emergency appendectomy and you have a PPO or HMO with Aetna, we'll get paid about $3500 by your insurance company.

If you don't have insurance and you come in for the same emergency appendectomy, we'll charge you $150,000.

I'm not kidding.[/QUOTE]

OK, I'm no expert in this field, so I'm genuinely confused by people who say that our health care system is broken.

In your example, is this a complaint by the hospitals and doctors that they should get $150,000 for such a procedure whether an individual is covered or not? Or do they honestly feel bad for the uninsured who have to come up with this cost?

Would the situation improve if the federal government allowed for individuals to deduct the cost of their health care coverage off their income taxes? Why don't we ever hear of an offer like this if the politicians are as concerned about the uninsured as they say they are?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Beemnseven;311705]In your example, is this a complaint by the hospitals and doctors that they should get $150,000 for such a procedure whether an individual is covered or not? Or do they honestly feel bad for the uninsured who have to come up with this cost?[/quote]

No it's definitely not a complaint, it's a necessity for financial survival.

[quote=Beemnseven;311705]Would the situation improve if the federal government allowed for individuals to deduct the cost of their health care coverage off their income taxes? Why don't we ever hear of an offer like this if the politicians are as concerned about the uninsured as they say they are?[/quote]

No, because the federal government would lose way too much revenue. They'd have to enact some sort of other tax to make up for it, lest we end up in an even bigger federal deficit than the one Bush has already pushed us into.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Schneed10;311700]I can see an argument against pharmaceutical companies to some extent, because they pull in massive profits. But you can't get all up in arms about one particular drug costing an insane amount of money. People like to say oh well that drug only costs $10 to make and they're charging $100 for it. Well that's because they spent $80 researching other possible drugs and vaccines that were deemed either ineffective or unsafe by the FDA. Pharmeceutical R&D is a huge expense and has to be factored into the equation for the drugs that do actually make it to the market.[/quote]

For the record, the vast majority of drugs are insanely marked up. I understand that the research and development side is expensive, but look at cancer treatments, which have been basically the same for 20+ years. My father has been on aggressive chemo and radiation for several months now. He was getting one of each treatment almost weekly for a while, and racking up around $10,000 in bills per week. It's friggin ridiculous that people are being charged insane amounts of money for drugs that are easily mass produced and haven't changed dramatically for over two decades.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Beemnseven;311701]What's "sad" about our health care system?[/quote]


Plenty, where should we start?

Let me answer with a question, what's good about our health care system?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Southpaw;311712]For the record, the vast majority of drugs are insanely marked up. I understand that the research and development side is expensive, but look at cancer treatments, which have been basically the same for 20+ years. My father has been on aggressive chemo and radiation for several months now. He was getting one of each treatment almost weekly for a while, and racking up around $10,000 in bills per week. It's friggin ridiculous that people are being charged insane amounts of money for drugs that are easily mass produced and haven't changed dramatically for over two decades.[/quote]

OK here's the lowdown on cancer drugs. Essentially, the federal government is retarded, and incapable of catching unscrupulous practices by the pharmaceutical industry.

You're right, there are cheap cancer drugs like Vincosar, Troposar, and Neosar. They're mass produced and aren't all that expensive. But pharmaceutical companies know that Medicare patients are the most frequent recipient of cancer treatments. And the pharmaceutical companies know that Medicare administrators aren't always on the ball. So, knowing that Medicare will reimburse the pharmaceutical companies at 80% of AWP (the average wholesale price), the pharmaceutical companies jacked up the AWP of cheaply manufactured generic cancer drugs. They'll charge $700 for a 2 mL dose of Vincosar, knowing that Medicare will reimburse them 80% of it ($540 per dose).

So Medicare pays this high price because they're not on the ball, and as Medicare continues to pay that price, it only lends validity to the high price in the marketplace. So... if you don't have Medicare? You better have solid insurance that has an agreement in place with the Pharmaceutical companies to pay a reasonable price for the drug (Aetna at 30% of AWP, etc.). If you don't have insurance? You're on the hook for all $700 per dose. Blame the pharmacuetical company for being unscrupulous with the pricing, blame the federal government and Medicare administration for being too inept to catch the problem, and blame yourself for not getting a job that has good insurance coverage. Plenty of blame to go around.

One of the true horrific examples of our bullshit system.

Does your father have insurance coverage? Is it commercial coverage or is he on Medicare?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;311715]Plenty, where should we start?

Let me answer with a question, what's good about our health care system?[/quote]

The quality. Outcomes and survival rates are higher here than in any other developed nation. Infection rates in hospital facilities are the lowest here of anywhere in the world. While I'm deeply troubled by the cost physicians incur for malpractice coverage, at least there is a system in place to deter physicians from making mistakes. There are fewer physician errors here than in any other nation.

But from a cost standpoint, and a fairness standpoint as far as different people paying different prices for the same service? Yeah we got plenty of problems.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I'll give you quality... but I think most would agree that doesn't outweigh the negatives.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Schneed10;311719]Does your father have insurance coverage? Is it commercial coverage or is he on Medicare?[/quote]

I believe he has commercial coverage through his employer, but I know he was basically fighting his insurance company to get them to cover some of the costs. And thanks for the info. I always assumed that federal government was involved, but your example makes them sound completely inept(shocker...) instead of being in on the scam.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;311723]I'll give you quality... but I think most would agree that doesn't outweigh the negatives.[/quote]

It sounds like you're comparing our healthcare system to those of European nations where healthcare is nationalized.

I'd take the American system any day of the week. There are more positives than just quality...

- Choice. Overseas, you are often designated to a certain facility or healthcare provider. If you don't like them, tough, you're stuck. Here, even if you have a crappy HMO, you still get to choose from a network of providers. If you have a PPO, you can see anyone.

- Fire and rescue services (including the 911 system) here are 1000% better than in Europe.

- Wait times at hospital ERs are way shorter here.

- There is a much greater specialization of surgical services here. In Europe, if you need to have a tumor removed from your spine, you often end up having a general surgeon do it. In the US, you have a spine specialist do it. Explains why survival rates are so much higher here for like procedures.

All this is not to say that we don't have major problems because we do. No matter what, it's total bullshit that someone without insurance pays 10 times what someone with insurance is charged. But I'd take quality over cost any day of the week; especially if it's my wife, daughter, mother or other family member getting taken care of.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I'm really not comparing it to anything, the bottom line is it could and should be a lot better than it is. It's been broken for a long time with no viable solutions in sight.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;311727]I'm really not comparing it to anything, the bottom line is it could and should be a lot better than it is. It's been broken for a long time with no viable solutions in sight.[/quote]

Yeah true that. Economic inertia is a factor. It would take so much time and money just to change the system to a more fair process regarding reimbursement. And there's no catalyst in place to make hospitals, insurance companies, and pharm companies to make the switch. They'll just keep on keepin on until the government forces the issue. Healthcare providers are too busy just trying to survive as it is; they don't have time to think about industry changes, they just need to think about how they're going to keep the lights on.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Schneed10;311700]Ugh. I'd love to go toe to toe with this douchebag in a healthcare debate.

First I gotta say that the American healthcare system is pretty busted up. But you can't blame the HMOs or the drug companies for that as Moore does in his film. [B]The HMOs don't pull mad profits from their business[/B]. It's a low-margin business.

I can see an argument against pharmaceutical companies to some extent, because they pull in massive profits. But you can't get all up in arms about one particular drug costing an insane amount of money. People like to say oh well that drug only costs $10 to make and they're charging $100 for it. Well that's because they spent $80 researching other possible drugs and vaccines that were deemed either ineffective or unsafe by the FDA. Pharmeceutical R&D is a huge expense and has to be factored into the equation for the drugs that do actually make it to the market.[/quote]
ALL insurance companies have big time profit margins. should i start by posting links to the salaries of the ceos? insurance is almost bordering the pyramid schemes, where they want your money, but you play hell getting yours if something happens. if your looking for pity for the mega money insurance giants, your looking the wrong way. and this lies the problem. why should the same procedure have 3 different costs, for 3 different people/ its how they balloon their profits. no one in that business goes hungry. and the lobbyists in Washington are some of the richest, most powerful in the world.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I have no doubt that our healthcare system has serious problems, but I cannot stomach Michael Moore. Truth be told, I lean left on most issues, but I cannot stand people on either side of the fence that cherrypick evidence. Michael Moore is to the left what Bush is to the right. Moore takes data and facts and manipulates them in such a dishonest way.

Bowling for Columbine was entertaining, but it was incoherent and made no real point other than that America has a gun problem. Farenheit 9/11 was not only incoherent, but it was also filled with B.S. In sum, Michael Moore has as much credibility with me as Dick Cheney does when it comes to WMDs in Iraq (i.e., none). The sad thing is that people on the left idolize Michael Moore because of his "conclusions" despite the fact that his analysis sucks, he's dishonest, and he's a world-class a-hole.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;311740]ALL insurance companies have big time profit margins. should i start by posting links to the salaries of the ceos? insurance is almost bordering the pyramid schemes, where they want your money, but you play hell getting yours if something happens. if your looking for pity for the mega money insurance giants, your looking the wrong way. and this lies the problem. why should the same procedure have 3 different costs, for 3 different people/ its how they balloon their profits. no one in that business goes hungry. and the lobbyists in Washington are some of the richest, most powerful in the world.[/QUOTE]

Actually you are wrong. Insurance companies do not make what most people would consider "big time profits" relative to other comparable industries. Compare their profits to pharms and it isn't even close. And CEO salaries are not indicative of huge profits. They are more closely aligned with revenue than with net profits. The cost of doing business as an insurance company is astronomical. What do you think the "managed healthcare" concept was born out of? The need to increase profits to a viable point due to the skyrocketing cost of healthcare. Go ahead and posts the CEOs salaries, they mean nothing.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;311744]The sad thing is that people on the left idolize Michael Moore because of his "conclusions" despite the fact that his analysis sucks, he's dishonest, and he's a world-class a-hole.[/quote]

Funny that the same thing could be said of the right and GW. Only difference is Moore isn't running the country.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;311744]I have no doubt that our healthcare system has serious problems, but I cannot stomach Michael Moore. Truth be told, I lean left on most issues, but I cannot stand people on either side of the fence that cherrypick evidence. Michael Moore is to the left what Bush is to the right. Moore takes data and facts and manipulates them in such a dishonest way.

Bowling for Columbine was entertaining, but it was incoherent and made no real point other than that America has a gun problem. Farenheit 9/11 was not only incoherent, but it was also filled with B.S. In sum, Michael Moore has as much credibility with me as Dick Cheney does when it comes to WMDs in Iraq (i.e., none). The sad thing is that people on the left idolize Michael Moore because of his "conclusions" despite the fact that his analysis sucks, he's dishonest, and he's a world-class a-hole.[/QUOTE]

Bingo. I lean right on issues but I try to be reasonable and see all sides to an issue. Moore is what is wrong with the liberal side in America. He is not only ultra-liberal beyond what what regular liberal Aemericans are he also one-tracked. He cannot even fathom agreeing with a conservative view and seeks out ways, both honest and dishonest, to advance his ultra-liberal views. He lies consistently and CREATES discontent where there need not be any. The problem is that for some reason the money in the Democratic party goes more towards this type of idiot rather than towards a reasonable liberal who will to do what really is best for America. The right has increasingly the same problem. Both parties have been or are very close to being totally taken over by the extreme sides and they are the ones who take no prisoners and cause serious problems. This is not a right/left/middle situation. This is a very right/very left/everyone else situation.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;311748]Funny that the same thing could be said of the right and GW. Only difference is Moore isn't running the country.[/QUOTE]

I think it is funny when leftists think GW is very conservative. GW is inarguably middle of the road for republicans. He has espoused very little in terms of true conservative values. This is the reaason he is so unpopular. Even righties don't much like him.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=FRPLG;311751]I think it is funny when leftists think GW is very conservative. GW is inarguably middle of the road for republicans. He has espoused very little in terms of true conservative values. This is the reaason he is so unpopular. Even righties don't much like him.[/quote]

'W' is no Reagan that's for sure when it comes to how far to the right he leans.

I think what really rubs people the wrong way with him is that "You're either with me or against me" attitude he has. There's no middle ground with him.

Most of all the guy is just an idiot, but that's a debate for another day.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=FRPLG;311747]Actually you are wrong. Insurance companies do not make what most people would consider "big time profits" relative to other comparable industries. Compare their profits to pharms and it isn't even close. And CEO salaries are not indicative of huge profits. They are more closely aligned with revenue than with net profits. [B]The cost of doing[/B] [B]business as an insurance company is astronomical. What do you think the[/B] "[B]managed healthcare" concept was born out of[/B]? The need to increase profits to a viable point due to the skyrocketing cost of healthcare. Go ahead and posts the CEOs salaries, they mean nothing.[/quote]
first off, what exactly is the cost of running an insurance company? it only takes a handful of non trained professionals to deny a claim. managed health care was thought up by a group of insurance companies to control costs, and make sure the profit margin is at its greatest. there should be no way an insurance company can deny someone coverage on a claim that is needed. but it happens all the time. when these companies start dictating to the medical profession what they can do, and what they can charge, thats the problem. i am for national healthcare. it cant possibly be any worse then it is now, and it will be cheaper

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;311754]first off, what exactly is the cost of running an insurance company? it only takes a handful of non trained professionals to deny a claim. managed health care was thought up by a group of insurance companies to control costs, and make sure the profit margin is at its greatest. there should be no way an insurance company can deny someone coverage on a claim that is needed. but it happens all the time. when these companies start dictating to the medical profession what they can do, and what they can charge, thats the problem. i am for national healthcare. it cant possibly be any worse then it is now, and it will be cheaper[/QUOTE]

Insurance companies pay out [B]BILLIONS [/B]of dollars a year in claims. THAT is the cost of doing business.

[QUOTE]managed health care was thought up by a group of insurance companies to control costs, and make sure the profit margin is at its greatest.[/QUOTE]

Umm yeah pretty much. They are public companies with share holders. That is why the company exists. Healthcare was becoming more expensive therefore hurting the bottom line. So insuarnce companies figured out how to still offer their services while also making the profits that they are supposed to make. You don't like it? Then go find another insurance company who isn't doing that. Can't find one? That ought to be a clue about what is going on here. If the profits were so "massive" then there would be companies running to get into the market to get a piece of the pie. That would in turn cause prices to drop. That isn't happening. I wonder why? Because insurance companies don't make "massive" profuts in the way that you mean. It is simple economics.

[QUOTE]there should be no way an insurance company can deny someone coverage on a claim that is needed.[/QUOTE]

Actually there should be. If their policy doesn't cover it. A lot of people bemoan the insuarnce companies for not paying out claims that they should pay out when in fact they are simply not paying out a claim that they shouldn't pay out. Very few insurance plans cover everything.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I haven't been to a docor since 1992 so I can't comment on the health care system except to say that everyone seems to get it that wants it. The only way to reduce costs is for everyone to follow my example.

As for Moore, he is a pure charlatan. He pretends to speak truth to power but he gets all his laughs at the expense of working people. In addition, he his a morbidly obese alcoholic who has to have minders around at all times to prevent his drunken shenanigans from making the papers.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;311675]What's worse though... him or the sad state of our nation's health care?[/QUOTE]

The worst part is he never fixes ANYTHING. Points fingers with lies many times and Cashes In on the Victims.
That is why he sucks.

The messenger perverts and weakens the message to make himself gain.
Jerk.

peace

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

there should be legislation against the Drug Companies. hopefully his movie will expose their scam.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;311762]The worst part is he never fixes ANYTHING. Points fingers with lies many times and Cashes In on the Victims.
That is why he sucks.

The messenger perverts and weakens the message to make himself gain.
Jerk.

peace[/quote]

Who ever said it was his job to fix anything?

He's simply shining some light on things that are seriously F'd up, it's up to everyone to do something about it.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=70Chip;311761]In addition, he his a morbidly obese alcoholic who has to have minders around at all times to prevent his drunken shenanigans from making the papers.[/quote]

Where is this coming from??

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;311770]Who ever said it was his job to fix anything?

He's simply shining some light on things that are seriously F'd up, it's up to everyone to do something about it.[/QUOTE]

He's Cashing in on other people's pain for his own gain and not really shineing a light.

Did you not know HMOs were F'ing all of us?
Did you not know Big CEOs were F'ing their companies?
Did you not know crazy people can legaly get guns in America?

He shed no light he filmed and cashed in on people's pain.

peace

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I really want to see this movie about Moore

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Dissent]Manufacturing Dissent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

I have no problem with shedding light on things or exposing fraud what have you. But the way he does it, by selectiving choosing facts to strengthen his own viewpoints is pretty disgusting.

It's like if you took only the games at the Giants and at the Eagles and did a whole piece on how the Redskins were not able to score a TD in 2006. Sure that's true...for those two games. But it doesn't tell the whole story

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;311772]He's Cashing in on other people's pain for his own gain and not really shineing a light.

Did you not know HMOs were F'ing all of us?
Did you not know Big CEOs were F'ing their companies?
Did you not know crazy people can legaly get guns in America?

He shed no light he filmed and cashed in on people's pain.

peace[/quote]

Charities also "cash in" from his movies.

About 60% of the net profits from Fahrenheit 911 went to charity.

I disagree that he doesn't shine a light on anything. Sure people already know about these problems, but do most people understand the extent and depth of these issues?? Most people don't even read a newspaper every day let alone understand just how F'd up health care is.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;311782]Charities also "cash in" from his movies.

About 60% of the net profits from Fahrenheit 911 went to charity.

I disagree that he doesn't shine a light on anything. Sure people already know about these problems, but do most people understand the extent and depth of these issues?? Most people don't even read a newspaper every day let alone understand just how F'd up health care is.[/QUOTE]

Want to learn fact? Read.
Don't let someone like this "teach" you about issues.
If you need this guy to tell you your opinion or what to think or what is "right"...you need serious help.

Problem is folks listen to this jerk and take it as truth because he has a big budget.