A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

Latest stats show too many people confused by the language of science, often in regard to evolution. It seems people don't know the difference between a Law and a Theory.

Most incorrectly believe that a Theory, when proved, becomes a Law. In other words, people have a tendency to think that a Theory is just a hypothesis. Actually, hypotheses, when proved, become either Theories or Laws.

Here's the skinny: In science, a Theory and a Law are equal in weight as regards the probability of being true.

A Law is created when something is proven by the scientific method to be true.

A Theory is created when something explains by the scientific method how something comes or came to be true

The same degree of proof is involved in each. For instance, science regards evolution as true as the notion that water boils at a certain temperature under certain conditions.

A Law is a fact, a Theory is a process that is fact.

When a Creationist argues that evolution is only a Theory, he shows ignorance of what a Theory is. A Theory, by definition, satisfies every condition of fact known to man, just as does a Law (in relation to the Scientific method) . If that were not so, it would no longer be a Theory, just as a Law would not be considered a Law if it did not satisify all conditions of fact.

It is also well to note that both Laws and Theories some time fall when new discoveries are made. The true glory of science, is that, ultimately there are no certainties, and there is always a need to keep exploring. There are Laws that have fallen still called Laws in books, which causes confusion, but it shouldn't. Once a Law or Theory is established, it is often referred to as a Law or a Theory as an item of historical record, even though it's no longer considered an actual Law or Theory.

Such a change of meaning has not occured with the Theory of Evolution. Not only is there not one scrap of scienfic evidence that points away from it, there is also a highly unlikely falling of scientific dominoes in store if it ever does fall.

It would mean that basic laws and theories about virtually every discipline of science are wrong: physics, math, astronomy, biology, geology, logic, etc., which would mean we have made no progress at all (which may be true, though possibly regrettable.) What's worse, the fall of evolution would say absolutely nothing about whether Creationism was right or wrong.

We would know next to nothing about our physical world and would know we knew next to nothing. With all of our tools to explore reality trashed, there would be no science to count on, including Creationism, which claims to be a science, but isn't.

What the heck, I guess.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

So does this have anything to do with Q3?

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=12thMan;316643]So does this have anything to do with Q3?[/quote]
Nothing and everything has to do with Q3

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=12thMan;316643]So does this have anything to do with Q3?[/quote]

It means, inspite of our various inventions and discoveries, we are still living in a primitive culture. The majority of Americans is no more spiritually advanced than early man throwing sticks at and sky and running from the thunder.
It also means our nation is beling lead by an idiot, backed by idiots.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

Yep, creation nutjobs always say Evolution is "just a theory" -- in everyday non-scientific jargon, people think that means there really is no proof.

Some would say it's weakness, but actually it's a strength: Science is always testing itself, and questioning itself -- Something that religion [I]never[/I] does.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316689]It means, inspite of our various inventions and discoveries, we are still living in a primitive culture. The majority of Americans is no more spiritually advanced than early man throwing sticks at and sky and running from the thunder.
It also means our nation is beling lead by an idiot, backed by idiots.[/QUOTE]

Ahh I see. So really you just wanted to start another anti-Bush thread.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316689]It means, inspite of our various inventions and discoveries, we are still living in a primitive culture. The majority of Americans is no more spiritually advanced than early man throwing sticks at and sky and running from the thunder.
It also means our nation is beling lead by an idiot, backed by idiots.[/QUOTE]

Crazyhorse, I'm down with speaking your mind and the freedom to assert your political views. But, why is it that many people who have a burning hatred of Bush also seem to belittle our country and think very poorly of the average American (whose interests liberals purportedly advance)? I don't know why you think our country is "primitive" or is not "spiritually advanced."

Our country has a lot of problems, but it is a damn good one (as evidenced by the fact that the U.S. annually takes in more immigrants than all the other countries in the world [I]combined[/I]). And, as the son of an immigrant, it is really perlexing when Americans don't realize just how good we've got things.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;316741]Crazyhorse, I'm down with speaking your mind and the freedom to assert your political views. But, why is it that many people who have a burning hatred of Bush also seem to belittle our country and think very poorly of the average American (whose interests liberals purportedly advance)? I don't know why you think our country is "primitive" or is not "spiritually advanced."

Our country has a lot of problems, but it is a damn good one (as evidenced by the fact that the U.S. annually takes in more immigrants than all the other countries in the world [I]combined[/I]). And, as the son of an immigrant, it is really perlexing when Americans don't realize just how good we've got things.[/quote]


Well put SGG. People have it so good in this country and don't even realize it, or so many just take it for granted.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;316741]Crazyhorse, I'm down with speaking your mind and the freedom to assert your political views. But, why is it that many people who have a burning hatred of Bush also seem to belittle our country and think very poorly of the average American (whose interests liberals purportedly advance)? I don't know why you think our country is "primitive" or is not "spiritually advanced."

Our country has a lot of problems, but it is a damn good one (as evidenced by the fact that the U.S. annually takes in more immigrants than all the other countries in the world [I]combined[/I]). And, as the son of an immigrant, it is really perlexing when Americans don't realize just how good we've got things.[/quote]

I believe that the world today is seriously threatened by religious fundamentalism, including our own. We fool ourselves when we choose to think that Bush alone caused the war; the war was at bottom caused by fundamentals in the Arab world reacting to American hegemony (a form of violence) with violence (911) and then an irrational counter action by a fundamentalist president put into office by fundamentalists. We've undergone a death of reason and given way to primative fears and hatreds.
We are now torturing people, committing war crimes, limiting American freedoms, flaunting religious and racial hated, and justifying violations of a Constitution that once gave light and hope to the world.
We are not a good country. We are a country that is really screwing up, and are currently rated as less trustworthy than China and dumber than dirt. Instead of reason, diplomacy, and science, we embrace fairy tales of devils and demons. We abandon diplomacy as well as the scientific method and look around for sticks to sharpen. This war would not have happened without the aid of neocons, big money, and the religious right working hand in glove. May they all be defanged, the sooner the better.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316745]We are not a good country.[/QUOTE]

Then please explain why this country still attracts more immigrants than the rest of the world combined. I do applaud you, however, for your candor. Most people who are very critical of our government are reluctant to admit that they do not think that this is a great country. I strongly disagree with you and can name dozens of other countries that have worse human rights records, limit freedoms to a MUCH greater extent than our country, etc. But, at least you're honest.

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316745]We fool ourselves when we choose to think that Bush alone caused the war; the war was at bottom caused by fundamentals in the Arab world reacting to American hegemony (a form of violence) with violence (911) and then an irrational counter action by a fundamentalist president put into office by fundamentalists.[/QUOTE]

You seem to imply that 911 was a rational response to American foreign policy and yet imply that our response to 911 was irrational. That strikes me as curious, to say the least.

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316745]We are a country that is really screwing up, and are currently rated as less trustworthy than China and [I]dumber than dirt[/I].[/QUOTE]

As long as liberals keep bashing Americans like that, they will never be respected by the people. I am a liberal, but I do not believe in the "you all are dumb", paternalism that seems to be a constant theme in modern, liberal America.

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316745]Instead of reason, diplomacy, and science, we embrace fairy tales of devils and demons. We abandon diplomacy as well as the scientific method and look around for sticks to sharpen.[/QUOTE]

I agree that we need to adjust our foreign policy and engage more of our enemies in diplomacy. I am also disgusted by the attacks on science in the name of religion. But, we should also sharpen our sticks for guys like Bin Laden.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;316741]Crazyhorse,But, why is it that many people who have a burning hatred of Bush also seem to belittle our country and think very poorly of the average American (whose interests liberals purportedly advance)? .[/QUOTE]

It's not just American Liberals it's the rest of the developed world too.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316745]I believe that the world today is seriously threatened by religious fundamentalism, including our own. We fool ourselves when we choose to think that Bush alone caused the war; the war was at bottom caused by fundamentals in the Arab world reacting to American hegemony (a form of violence) with violence (911) and then an irrational counter action by a fundamentalist president put into office by fundamentalists. We've undergone a death of reason and given way to primative fears and hatreds.
We are now torturing people, committing war crimes, limiting American freedoms, flaunting religious and racial hated, and justifying violations of a Constitution that once gave light and hope to the world.
We are not a good country. We are a country that is really screwing up, and are currently rated as less trustworthy than China and dumber than dirt. Instead of reason, diplomacy, and science, we embrace fairy tales of devils and demons. We abandon diplomacy as well as the scientific method and look around for sticks to sharpen. This war would not have happened without the aid of neocons, big money, and the religious right working hand in glove. May they all be defanged, the sooner the better.[/QUOTE]
You, your kind and what you stand for are the only thing wrong with this country. You're an embarassment and the crazziness couched in some sort of irrational logic act hurts this country

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

For someone, seemingly, so intelligent you are incredibly narrow minded and short sighted. But I have a feeling you like to engage in this type of discussion; One that engenders strife and division, not harmony and unity.

Hmmm....is it possible that you yourself are guilty of the same extreme, self-righteous behavior that you accuse our government of?

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;316754]It's not just American Liberals it's the rest of the developed world too.[/QUOTE]

So, the rest of the world hates us for our arrogance and mocks us for thinking we can tell others what type of government to set up, and then tells us who we should and should not elect as our President and whether our politics are "bad"?

A map of the earth........$19.99
A world globe...............$89.99
A trip around the world..$9,500.39
Incredibly hypocritical and ironic statements from people around the world.....priceless.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;316794]So, the rest of the world hates us for our arrogance and mocks us for thinking we can tell others what type of government to set up, and then tells us who we should and should not elect as our President and whether our politics are "bad"?

A map of the earth........$19.99
A world globe...............$89.99
A trip around the world..$9,500.39
Incredibly hypocritical and ironic statements from people around the world.....priceless.[/QUOTE]

I'm just saying that amongst the world's richest countries we are pretty much alone in our religiosity, and that people find that comical. The rest of the world doesn't hate us. They love many things about America; however, they also laugh at our backwoods religious fervor, our obesity, and our penchant for firearms.

You can pick your country, with a few choice exceptions religion has been abandoned as something pre-modern. Here where I live 75 percent of the country is atheist, and those who aren't tend to be older. I have never once met a religious young person, and I meet lots and lots of young people. Now you can argue about whether or not this is a good thing, whether America is god's country or not, whether or not the rest of the world is going to hell, but what you can't argue with is the fact that we are increasingly the only religious rich country left, Israel and maybe Ireland notwithstanding.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;316756]You, your kind and what you stand for are the only thing wrong with this country. You're an embarassment and the crazziness couched in some sort of irrational logic act hurts this country[/QUOTE]

Am I the only one who feels this is out of line?

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

Djnemo brings up a good point. Let's try to keep this debate civil. I strongly disagree with, but respect, crazyhorse.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;316796]I'm just saying that amongst the world's richest countries we are pretty much alone in our religiosity, and that people find that comical. The rest of the world doesn't hate us. They love many things about America; however, they also laugh at our backwoods religious fervor, our obesity, and our penchant for firearms.

You can pick your country, with a few choice exceptions religion has been abandoned as something pre-modern. Here where I live 75 percent of the country is atheist, and those who aren't tend to be older. I have never once met a religious young person, and I meet lots and lots of young people. Now you can argue about whether or not this is a good thing, whether America is god's country or not, whether or not the rest of the world is going to hell, but what you can't argue with is the fact that we are increasingly the only religious rich country left, Israel and maybe Ireland notwithstanding.[/QUOTE]

You make good points and I do not care for the harcore religious right, but I still see hypocrisy in that view of America. Again, many people abroad bash us for our narrow-mindedness, inability to understand foreign cultures, and belief that anything that is not inherently American is not any good. I don't see how they can bash us for our arrogance and simultaneously bash us for our culture (which includes religion).

Something tells me that many of the people who bash America for its religiosity think the Dalai Lama (sp?) is great, believe we must respect Islam, and think that poor countries should preserve their cultural identities in the face of free trade and global integration. I find that interesting.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;316800]You make good points and I do not care for the harcore religious right, but I still see hypocrisy in that view of America. Again, many people abroad bash us for our narrow-mindedness, inability to understand foreign cultures, and belief that anything that is not inherently American is not any good. I don't see how they can bash us for our arrogance and simultaneously bash us for our culture (which includes religion).

Something tells me that many of the people who bash America for its religiosity think the Dalai Lama (sp?) is great, believe we must respect Islam, and think that poor countries should preserve their cultural identities in the face of free trade and global integration. I find that interesting.[/QUOTE]

SGG, I think you are incorrectly conflating American liberals with people overseas. What you are describing is your average University of Pennsylvania English major. The animus towards religion - all religion - runs deeper than you realize, and no religion is more reviled than Islam, particularly in Europe where religious inspired terrorism looms over daily life the same way it does in the States. Moreover, the kind of liberal political correctness you allude to is largely an American phenomenon.

Living overseas has taught me that America means a lot less to people than we as Americans think. At the end of the day we are just another country. The rest of the world is not obsessed with us. When we step on people's toes, as Tony Soprano would say, they might get upset. When we release an interesting movie they go see it. They like some things and dislike others, but at the end of the day they have to put food on the table, and America has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that America is going one way religiously while our first world contemporaries are going another.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Criticize Bush by criticizing his policies--Iraq, Stem cells, the trade gap, the budget deficit, the lack of affordable health care, the suspension of Habeas Corpus and the gutting of our basic constitutional protections, Alberto Gonzales, Scooter Libby, etc., etc., etc.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=JWsleep;316807]Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Criticize Bush by criticizing his policies--Iraq, Stem cells, the trade gap, the budget deficit, the lack of affordable health care, the suspension of Habeas Corpus and the gutting of our basic constitutional protections, Alberto Gonzales, Scooter Libby, etc., etc., etc.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)[/quote]

Great post, and I especially agree with the last statement. I am sure many of us take that freedom for granted. I am highly critical of our leadership, but I am still grateful I have the right to be critical.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=JWsleep;316807]PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. [/QUOTE]

I wholeheartedly agree. My little tangent was in response to Crazyhorse's statement that "this is not a good country" and to my friends' similar sentiments. I am a liberal who voted against Bush twice, but I am disturbed by a trend I see in liberal America where it has become popular to piss on our country (as opposed to disagreeing with Bush or right-leaning politicians).

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

I've lived and been to a lot of places around the world and this country is by far the greatest country I have ever been to. This is a country where anyone determined can realize his or her goals and dream. Not many places on this earth offer the kind of opportunities offered here. I think this may suprise a lot of people but believe it or not this is the most tollenet and least racist place on the planet.

Having said that, this country isn't without flaws. It is not perfect and to expect it to be is foolish. There are a lot of things I would like to change but change isn't easy. It takes time and I think we will get there.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;316797]Am I the only one who feels this is out of line?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;316798]Djnemo brings up a good point. Let's try to keep this debate civil. I strongly disagree with, but respect, crazyhorse.[/QUOTE]

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;316829]I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.[/QUOTE]

I'll PM you

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=saden1;316822]I've lived and been to a lot of places around the world and this country is by far the greatest country I have ever been to. This is a country where anyone determined can realize his or her goals and dream. Not many places on this earth offer the kind of opportunities offered here. I think this may suprise a lot of people but believe it or not this is the most tollenet and least racist place on the planet.

Having said that, this country isn't without flaws. It is not perfect and to expect it to be is foolish. There are a lot of things I would like to change but change isn't easy. It takes time and I think we will get there.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Saden. And thank you JWSleep.

If any of you guys get a chance you should read Fareed Zakaria's article in the latest Newsweek.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=FRPLG;316829]I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.[/quote]

Rose-colored glasses will not help our country regain its former position of moral, ethical, and intellectual leadership in our world. Before we can correct our course we must fully understand how far off course we have been. We have been murderous and have broken our traditions concerning torture, habeus corpus, international law; our attack on Iraq was unnecessary, unethical, and incredibly stupid. Our government has made lying, spying, and tyranny a policy and many of us have supported it all, many have supported much of it, and others have done nothing. We have attacked global warming, evolution, medical breakthoughs, even the undeniable physics of water and levees, as well as ignored truths unearthed by our intelligence agencies. We have been heartless and mindless and terrified of shadows.
If I had written a novel fifteen years ago featuring such a series of national failings, no one would have published it because no reader would have believed it. If you are not utterly shocked it's probably because you're asleep or dead. I started this thread with a discussion of terms of science and evolution because we are suffering from a basic national failure to come to grips with reality: laws and theories of science are basic. Evolution has a clear message: Evolve out of your primitive, mindless, greedy, fearful, heartless state or die.
There are plenty of George Bushes out there and we may even have a few more already in the pipeline. We don't have to follow them.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;316864]Rose-colored glasses will not help our country regain its former position of moral, ethical, and intellectual leadership in our world. Before we can correct our course we must fully understand how far off course we have been. We have been murderous and have broken our traditions concerning torture, habeus corpus, international law; our attack on Iraq was unnecessary, unethical, and incredibly stupid. Our government has made lying, spying, and tyranny a policy and many of us have supported it all, many have supported much of it, and others have done nothing. We have attacked global warming, evolution, medical breakthoughs, even the undeniable physics of water and levees, as well as ignored truths unearthed by our intelligence agencies. We have been heartless and mindless and terrified of shadows.
If I had written a novel fifteen years ago featuring such a series of national failings, no one would have published it because no reader would have believed it. If you are not utterly shocked it's probably because you're asleep or dead. I started this thread with a discussion of terms of science and evolution because we are suffering from a basic national failure to come to grips with reality: laws and theories of science are basic. Evolution has a clear message: Evolve out of your primitive, mindless, greedy, fearful, heartless state or die.
There are plenty of George Bushes out there and we may even have a few more already in the pipeline. We don't have to follow them.[/QUOTE]

Ok, you disagreed with the decision to attack Iraq. We get it. How many threads do you want to start telling us the same thing?

But it amazes me how you continue to think, or at least give the impression that you think, that all that you allege above has never happened before in this country. You think international laws were never violated, spying never occurred, habeas corpus was never suspended? It's happened before and it'll happen again.

Do you plan on discussing the Redskins again at some point on this message board, or do you want this just to be your bitchfest bully pulpit?

PS: FRPLG, I retract my PM to you :)

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

I am trying to figure out how this erupted from a theory and law discussion. I always miss the good stuff.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

There are people on this site that I as an American am embarrassed of. People who I think are the problem with our country. But I don't write this about them publicly because I understand that to be in contrast to both the policy and spirit of this message board. I am quite surprised that this type of language seems to be okay with the mods here.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;316878]There are people on this site that I as an American am embarrassed of. People who I think are the problem with our country. But I don't write this about them publicly because I understand that to be in contrast to both the policy and spirit of this message board. I am quite surprised that this type of language seems to be okay with the mods here.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by the last statement there?

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

I don't get the impression that you are that upset but what I consider to be a pretty inflammatory comment. Am I wrong?

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;316893]I don't get the impression that you are that upset but what I consider to be a pretty inflammatory comment. Am I wrong?[/QUOTE]

You talking about FRPLG's comments?

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

We banned political talk for a while here for good reason, let's not go back down that road. Keep it civil.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;316861]If any of you guys get a chance you should read Fareed Zakaria's article in the latest Newsweek.[/QUOTE]

Yup, I read the article. In fact, that's where I learned that the U.S. attracts more immigrants than all of the other nations on the earth ... combined.

You also made a good point about the lies, spying, etc. not being anything novel. I'm a strong advocate of civil rights, but, as a history major and history buff, I am very much aware that the lies, spying, etc. are nothing new. Crazyhorse, I don't think your assertion that Bush's actions (e.g. lying) are unprecedented is accurate. In fact, Bush's "trangressions against the Constitution" are relatively mild.

Consider, for a second, (1) The Alien & Sedition Acts made it unlawful to speak out against the government; (2) where blacks were 30 years ago, (3) that women were not allowed to vote or (in some states) own property until this century, (4) that FDR interned thousands of Japanese in prison camps during WWII (which makes Gitmo look like nothing), (5) FDR authorized the creation of military tribunals to try and execute Nazi terrorists, (6) FDR tried to "pack" the Supreme Court to get his policies approved by the Court (which makes the AUSA scandals look mild), (7) Lincoln [I]suspended habeas corpus [/I] to jail guys who simply spoke out against the civil war (See Ex Parte Milligan), and I could go on. I would think that, as a professor in a liberal arts school, you would know that Bush's actions aren't so unprecedented.

For some reason, when railing a agaist Bush, people pretend as though no politicians have ever lied to them, our history is spotless, and everything would be paradise but for Bush. It takes the word exaggeration to new levels. In fact, it kind of reminds me of Kim Jong-Il speeches about the "imperialist, capitalist, pure-evil, blood-sucking" United States."

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

I'm inflamed in number of area's with this thread. However, I do not have time at the moment to properly rake those that need to be raked. I'll be back in a bit for a proper reponse! Hold my place in line

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

I am inserting my two-cents to compliment the mods and members.

Preliminarily, I heartily disagree with much of crazyhorse's assertions on a variety of levels and particularly on his attitude towards the US and its citzenry. I am fully aware that we are a flawed country but would suggest that, more often than not, this is a country that strives to "do the right thing". Sometimes it fails and does so spectacularly causing great pain and hardship to individuals - both citizens and non-citizens. However, this country is not the Fourth Reich or Pol Pot's Killing Fields. In my opinion, the intent to do evil is not intergral to our government or our citizenry. Rather, although failing to do so through fear, greed, negligence or arrogance, it is the intent to do good and the belief that we can do good that is integral to the our government and our citizens.

As for my compliments: I am glad I live in a country that not only allows statements such as those made by Crazyhorse but, actually,encourages them. Only by allowing such calumny to spoken and discussed openly can it be truly exposed and discredited. To paraphrase Voltair, I do not agree with it but will defend to the death the right to say it.

Both members and mods have, thus far, exhibited both restraint and civility in discussing such a volatile topic. Kudos.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

The thing is that it will never be rooted out. Religion is ineradicable (see Freud). I wish all the people I diasagree with would go away too, but alas...

One problem is that scientists tend to be very poor communicators. They have done a poor job of explaining what natural selection is and why we should believe it. I tend not to take people's word for things. That's just substituting new prophets for old.

I don't think most people who say they believe in evolution know the first thing about it. At least not the ones that I have met. They mostly rail against the backward and superstitious fools who disagree with them and leave it there. If someone would take the time to explain it to people in a way that makes sense then I think the average person would say, "yeah, that makes sense." I don't know why they don't do that. They have PBS shows that explain all sorts of complex ideas. Einstein's quest to unify relativity and quantum mechanics, black holes, and the like. When it comes to Darwin, we get some old British actor traipsing about Galapagos with lots of pretty pictures of turtles. It shouldn't be that hard to explain the science, especially given all that we have learned about DNA in the last few years.

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

natural selection's been explained pretty clearly; I really don't think that's the problem.

in brief - through breeding, sometimes a mutation arises. it can be bad (causing retardation or some other undesirable thing). Other times the mutation helps the species to adapt to their environment to give them a better chance at survival. For example, moth wing patterns changing over time to match their surroundings after being imported to a new country (by humans). The new patterns make them harder to see and less likely to be eaten by birds, so more of these "mutated" moths live long enough to breed and pass on an ever higher chance of receiving that beneficial mutation to their offspring.


it really has been explained well and in multiple different ways, but a lot of people get disinterested when it can't be conveyed in three words, or don't feel like taking the time to read through how it works (since one theory is based on other based on another etc and that reading can stack up).

Re: A Misconception that should be rooted out
 

[quote=That Guy;317043]natural selection's been explained pretty clearly; I really don't think that's the problem.

in brief - through breeding, sometimes a mutation arises. it can be bad (causing retardation or some other undesirable thing). Other times the mutation helps the species to adapt to their environment to give them a better chance at survival. For example, moth wing patterns changing over time to match their surroundings after being imported to a new country (by humans). The new patterns make them harder to see and less likely to be eaten by birds, so more of these "mutated" moths live long enough to breed and pass on an ever higher chance of receiving that beneficial mutation to their offspring.


it really has been explained well and in multiple different ways, but a lot of people get disinterested when it can't be conveyed in three words, or don't feel like taking the time to read through how it works (since one theory is based on other based on another etc and that reading can stack up).[/quote]

You've stated it simply enough. What I don't understand is why there isn't a greater effort to explain it to the masses. You would think that since this ignorance causes so much chagrin in the scientific community that there would be a more user friendly approach. Sometimes I think they prefer to have something to rail against.

Here's a question I always had: Cell theory says that all cells are derived from other cells. There is no spontaneous generation. What about the first instance?