The legacy of 'W'?
 

Reading this article got me wondering, when it's all said and done what do you think W's legacy will be? In 25 years when we look back, how do you think he will be perceived?

I mean c'mon, let's face it the guy came into office riding a mountain of controversy over the 2000 election, and he's enjoyin "rock-bottom poll numbers" as this article puts it.

I think the question is worth asking, is he the worst President we've seen to date?

[url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/13/BUSH.TMP]Unpopular Bush risks little by staying course[/url]

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Wow, nothing like creating a useless thread. We haven't got enough of this in the other Bush bashing threads?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Thanks for chiming in with a worthless response, I wanted to focus specifically on his legacy here. If that's useless to you oh well, don't bother reading.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328384]Reading this article got me wondering, when it's all said and done what do you think W's legacy will be? In 25 years when we look back, how do you think he will be perceived?

I mean c'mon, let's face it the guy came into office riding a mountain of controversy over the 2000 election, and he's enjoyin "rock-bottom poll numbers" as this article puts it.

I think the question is worth asking, is he the worst President we've seen to date?

[url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/13/BUSH.TMP]Unpopular Bush risks little by staying course[/url][/QUOTE]

To answer your question...I think the Dems are already too high on the idea that he's the worst president ever, it won't be until a good decade from now that we can truely assess his worth.
I personally think that 10 years from now a lot of people will be saying he was a good president but they let rumors and other people influence their decision.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328387]Thanks for chiming in with a worthless response, I wanted to focus specifically on his legacy here. If that's useless to you oh well, don't bother reading.[/QUOTE]

Just as worthless as this thread...do you really think you're going to get any other answers than you've already seen on other threads?
Hey, why don't we start a how Jason Campbell is going to fair this year thread?
If you want to start a bush bashing thread, why not title it so? At least then there is no underlying agenda.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Just curious, what would make him even an average President in your eyes?

I honestly don't see what he's done a good job with since he took office.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328392]Just as worthless as this thread...do you really think you're going to get any other answers than you've already seen on other threads?
Hey, why don't we start a how Jason Campbell is going to fair this year thread?
If you want to start a bush bashing thread, why not title it so? At least then there is no underlying agenda.[/quote]

I'm not looking to bash him, that's far too easy anyway.

I'm honestly looking for some debate here as to what his legacy will be, and what has he actually done a good job with? I'm sure there's gotta be something.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

I think W will be synonymous with Nixon. Is W the worst, perhaps, but I'm pretty sure someone will come along and take the top spot as the worst.

W has put the Republican party in a huge bind. They are in for a world of hurt for at least the next 12 years.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Hey jsarno you should be greatfull Matty doesn't run this board like those pricks over at the Buc's board or you would be gone for three months already.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Summo;328396]Hey jsarno you should be greatfull Matty doesn't run this board like those pricks over at the Buc's board or you would be gone for three months already.[/quote]

LOL that's right, I think we need to get back to handing out 3 month bans, even if it is just a joke.

jsarno, see you in October dude.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Elect Hillary and there will be no debate who the worst President is or was. BTW- If that happens you can look me up in Mexico or Canada because I will be moving.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=mredskins;328401]Elect Hillary and there will be no debate who the worst President is or was. BTW- If that happens you can look me up in Mexico or Canada because I will be moving.[/quote]

You might want to start packing LOL

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Kind of busy now, so I don't have too much time to get into it. But when you look back on James Buchanan and his Presidency the similarities to W are quite striking. And JB is considered one of the worst Presidents ever. But, on the other hand, there are some similarities to guys like Truman. Now considered one of the best ever.

The problem(s) with W are that a.) so much of what he has set out to do can't be judged until many years ahead when we see what unfolds with Iraq (because really that's what his leagacy will come down to) and b.) I think there's a notion that we must think he's bad even when he does good

If I were to get all Lucy Van Pelt on him, I'd say that I don't know that Bush ever really wanted to be President and it tends to show sometimes. I think if you really dissect his presidency you'd see that he's not as in charge as say Clinton was, or even his dad. Jeb should have probably been the next Bush President, not W.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Matty are you a Dem?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Bush has had some terrible things happen under his watch.
9/11, and Hurricanes Katrina and Rita are probably the worst.

At the time of 9/11 I would say that 95% of America thought we needed to do something in order to prevent future attacks. Now weather you believe going to war with Afghanistan was the right answer or not, everyone wanted some kind of action taken. When it was, people were happy, and agreed with the move. As time has gone by, we are not seeing the results that we expected, and people are now against the idea.

As for he Hurricanes, I think that he really dropped the ball on this situation. I know that millions of dollars were poured into helping, but under a non War time, the National Guard would have been down there cleaning up and helping restore order, and rebuild that place.

The fact that the wars have been going on longer than we expected and the amount of effort with the hurricanes will sink Bush towards the bottom of the list. I however have only been alive for 4 presidents, and really I didn't start to care about politics until half way through Clinton. So in MY lifetime, I would say that he is the worst president.

Worst of all time, I am not educated enough on the history of all of our presidents to make a rational comment.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;328395]W has put the Republican party in a huge bind. They are in for a world of hurt for at least the next 12 years.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he's done them a favor. The far-left leaning Mondale and Dukakis opened the door for Bill Clinton and his relatively centrist policies to emerge. Maybe now there's a slight window of opportunity for the Republican party to find a candidate that will move the other way toward the center. Being a moderate Republican myself, I hope that's the case.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=mredskins;328406]Matty are you a Dem?[/quote]

I'm registered as independent

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

I really don't get why people register as democrat or a republican. What's the point? You can't vote outside your party in the primaries in a number states now unless you're a registered as an independent.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;328414]I really don't get why people register as democrat or a republican. What's the point? You can't vote outside your party in the primaries in a number states now unless you're a registered as an independent.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if the rule has change bu when I first registered to vote, I had to pick a party because otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to vote in my state's primaries. Otherwise, I would have registered as an Independent

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328394]I'm not looking to bash him, that's far too easy anyway.[/quote]

I'm going to take your word for that.

I'm honestly looking for some debate here as to what his legacy will be, and what has he actually done a good job with? I'm sure there's gotta be something.[/QUOTE]

How about these:
1- he has helped to lower interest rates to the best in history.
2- He has helped the economy to one of the most successful in history.
3- He has had VERY good unemployment rates all the while lowering taxes for everyone including the poor.
4- He has hit his objectives and stuck to his word, something we commonly criticize presidents for. (read my lips, no new taxes comes to mind)
5- His unwaivering support for the protection of this country.
(Apparently he is a genius too cause he started this war all by himself, and he has fought this war all by himself. But that is sarcasm, not an actual good job)
6- He prevented Nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
7- Getting Lybia to give up its WMD programs and renounce terrorism.
8- Getting North Korea to shut down it's nuclear reactor.
9- Decapitating Al Quaeda's top leadership and preventing another massive attack on US soil.
10- Boosting Aid to Africa by three times the current aid...and vowed to double it again by 2010.

I'll start with those.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328413]I'm registered as independent[/QUOTE]

That is actually something we have in common.
I feel it is better for me to be an independant cause I feel my vote carries more weight. Dems already count on Dems to vote for them, and Rep. already count on Rep. to vote for them...independants are the wild card.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Summo;328396]Hey jsarno you should be greatfull Matty doesn't run this board like those pricks over at the Buc's board or you would be gone for three months already.[/QUOTE]


I can think of nothing but sarcasm to this post, so I will keep it short and sweet. You came out of your little retirement to post this?

While I am sure Matty and I don't see eye to eye, I would hope we have enough of an understanding to speak open with one another. I have no ill feelings for Matty, in fact he was the one that helped me come back to this site after my daughter died...and I hope Matty has no ill feelings towards me. We just have vastly different opinions when it comes to politics.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

I don't have time to read the article right now but, he is a president of war and was the president during 9/11. No matter what, i think 50 years from now he will be seen in a far more positive light just because our high school history books aren't going to demean a president during such intense times. However, i don't think anyone will forget his unprecedented unpopularity among the american people.

Infact this time period may be seen as one of the greatest failures of government in US history. Democrats and Republicans alike suck ass right now. We voted for a new congress and they have done shit. This is going to get dangerous because the wants of the american people are going unaddressed. I mean there is a reason why so many democrats won in the last election but the fact that nothing is happening is disheartening.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328389]To answer your question...I think the Dems are already too high on the idea that he's the worst president ever, it won't be until a good decade from now that we can truely assess his worth.
I personally think that 10 years from now a lot of people will be saying he was a good president but they let rumors and other people influence their decision.[/quote]

How convenient for you to blame the Dems for Bush's legacy. Why is it that everything is always partisan? What about Bush's own colleagues breaking ranks and not supporting him on some very key issues? What about his own party suggesting that he's too insulated from reality and not willing to work with Congress?

I think the disadvantage that Bush has over, let's say Truman, is that Truman was not under the 24 hour scrutinty of the media, internet, and blogosphere to judge, critisize, and analyze his every move and non-move. And for that reason, I think it's an unfair comparison when I hear people guage Bush's ratings against that of Truman's.

I think Bush will need to push and get some meaningful policy approved before his term ends; Immigration comes to mind. But he may have exhausted all of his political currency in Washington.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Good points, BSB. The Democratic party shouldn't be totally absolved of blame during this era. And, how said is it for them they couldn't find anybody in their party to defeat the "Worst President in History"

Back to Buchanan, for a second. One irony is that he is seen as one of the worst because he held too tightly to what was allowed in the Constitution and allowed the states to secede. Meanwhile, Bush is criticized for playing too loose with the Constitution.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Wow things have gotten testy around here.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;328424]

I think Bush will need to push and get some meaningful policy approved before his term ends; Immigration comes to mind. But he may have exhausted all of his political currency in Washington.[/QUOTE]

Just an FYI, he has tried twice for immigration reform and was shot down. The president can only do so much cause that's how our system was made.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328420]I can think of nothing but sarcasm to this post, so I will keep it short and sweet. You came out of your little retirement to post this?

While I am sure Matty and I don't see eye to eye, I would hope we have enough of an understanding to speak open with one another. I have no ill feelings for Matty, in fact he was the one that helped me come back to this site after my daughter died...and I hope Matty has no ill feelings towards me. We just have vastly different opinions when it comes to politics.[/quote]

No hard feelings at all. That's what discussion is all about, and in the end if we have to agree to disagree and move on, that's fine with me.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328416]I'm going to take your word for that.

I'm honestly looking for some debate here as to what his legacy will be, and what has he actually done a good job with? I'm sure there's gotta be something.[/quote]

How about these:
1- he has helped to lower interest rates to the best in history.
2- He has helped the economy to one of the most successful in history.
3- He has had VERY good unemployment rates all the while lowering taxes for everyone including the poor.
4- He has hit his objectives and stuck to his word, something we commonly criticize presidents for. (read my lips, no new taxes comes to mind)
5- His unwaivering support for the protection of this country.
(Apparently he is a genius too cause he started this war all by himself, and he has fought this war all by himself. But that is sarcasm, not an actual good job)
6- He prevented Nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
7- Getting Lybia to give up its WMD programs and renounce terrorism.
8- Getting North Korea to shut down it's nuclear reactor.
9- Decapitating Al Quaeda's top leadership and preventing another massive attack on US soil.
10- Boosting Aid to Africa by three times the current aid...and vowed to double it again by 2010.

I'll start with those.[/quote]

On the flipside what do you think he's done poorly?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=BigSKINBauer;328421]

Infact this time period may be seen as one of the greatest failures of government in US history. Democrats and Republicans alike suck ass right now. We voted for a new congress and they have done shit. This is going to get dangerous because the wants of the american people are going unaddressed. I mean there is a reason why so many democrats won in the last election but the fact that nothing is happening is disheartening.[/QUOTE]

This I absolutely agree with.
Of course I would like to say it's cause the Dems have no actual plan, or insights, but I truely feel it's cause they can't play as a team. (they as in everyone) It's like kindergarden all over again and everyone is getting a U under the section of "Plays well with others".

I still hold firm to, well you may hate Bush, but Kerry would have been a complete disaster on a monumental scale. We still chose the lesser of two evils.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328433]Just an FYI, he has tried twice for immigration reform and was shot down. The president can only do so much cause that's how our system was made.[/quote]

Exactly. I think it was shot down, in part, because many didn't like the package, and secondly because Bush himself hasn't shown a capacity to compromise and reach accross the aisle on key issues. I think it just came back to bite him the ass, politically.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328436]No hard feelings at all. That's what discussion is all about, and in the end if we have to agree to disagree and move on, that's fine with me.[/QUOTE]

exactly. See, that was my point...I think people that have known me over the years know enough to know I'm not an attacker. I knew we had an understanding! :D

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;328442]Exactly. I think it was shot down, in part, because many didn't like the package, and secondly because Bush himself hasn't shown a capacity to compromise and reach accross the isle on key issues. I think it just came back to bite him the ass, politically.[/QUOTE]


While I do agree...it think it has a lot to do with the fact that it has become PC to dislike Bush. Someone has to be "to blame" for this war in Iraq, and even though it was agreed with overwhelming support, those old fogies don't want to point their finger at themselves, so Bush is the one everyone is pointing to. It happens even here. Fact is, he said it would be a long hard fight, and he would see it through...well he actually was honest about it and we don't like that for some reason.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328437]How about these:
1- he has helped to lower interest rates to the best in history.
2- He has helped the economy to one of the most successful in history.
3- He has had VERY good unemployment rates all the while lowering taxes for everyone including the poor.
4- He has hit his objectives and stuck to his word, something we commonly criticize presidents for. (read my lips, no new taxes comes to mind)
5- His unwaivering support for the protection of this country.
(Apparently he is a genius too cause he started this war all by himself, and he has fought this war all by himself. But that is sarcasm, not an actual good job)
6- He prevented Nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
7- Getting Lybia to give up its WMD programs and renounce terrorism.
8- Getting North Korea to shut down it's nuclear reactor.
9- Decapitating Al Quaeda's top leadership and preventing another massive attack on US soil.
10- Boosting Aid to Africa by three times the current aid...and vowed to double it again by 2010.

I'll start with those.[/quote]

On the flipside what do you think he's done poorly?[/QUOTE]

Well, I am supposed to be the pro side, you're supposed to be the con side. There are enough people here to give the negatives that I don't need to...but since someone is going to bring it up anyway, I will say this one thing:
I am not thrilled with his lack of support for alternative fuels. In fact, if I remember correctly he took away 50% of the funding to research. I firmly feel that oil is America's downfall, and if we rely on corn for our fuel, we'd have the market cornered. We are the #1 producer of corn in the world, and we could have the other countries by the balls, but Bush has too much loyalty to the oil companies.

OK, Since I gave a con of Bush in good faith, Matty, what do you think Bush has done correctly.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Let me say this too, I'm a Dem...if you hadn't guess that by now. But I'm thoroughly disappointed with the brand of politics we've shown since taking over Congress.

It seems they are so utterely consumed with investigating every tacit of the White House's internal dealings, and yes, corruption. They say they've forgotten about how the Repubs were after Clinton and this is a new day. But every other day, it seems, there is somone new being subpoenaed to the Hill to testify about this or that. And they wonder why people like us are so cynical about our leadership and politics in general.

Let's get on with the business of the Nation and tend to the needs of people that sent you to Washington in the first place! It seems like they prefer investigation over legislation, and I'm damn tired of it!

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Just an FYI for everyone...no president ever did everything 100% correctly. For those that loved Clinton, there were those that thought he was the worst president ever. To me, Clinton ended his presidency on a very high note, and now almost 8 years later, his tenure has been tarnished with comments of what he didn't do as a president and what he ignored that created other issues and problems.
Same goes for all presidents in the modern era of media. I think the only president in that history to be considered nearly perfect was Kennedy and only because people feel bad for picking on a president that was assissinated.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328456]Just an FYI for everyone...no president ever did everything 100% correctly. For those that loved Clinton, there were those that thought he was the worst president ever. To me, Clinton ended his presidency on a very high note, and now almost 8 years later, his tenure has been tarnished with comments of what he didn't do as a president and what he ignored that created other issues and problems.
Same goes for all presidents in the modern era of media. I think the only president in that history to be considered nearly perfect was Kennedy and only because people feel bad for picking on a president that was assissinated.[/quote]

Good points. You'll rarely, if ever, hear the media say anything negative about Kennedy. But off the record, and I've heard this from some old timers, they didn't care for him as much as some would lead you to believe.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

I am not a Bush basher but I am going to respond to some of these:
[QUOTE=jsarno;328416]
How about these:
1- he has helped to lower interest rates to the best in history.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah so he has exactly zero control over this. Giving him credit is silly. He has absolutely no impact on interest rates. Totally market and Federla Reserve driven.
[QUOTE]
2- He has helped the economy to one of the most successful in history.
[/QUOTE]
Presidents get too much credit for this both ways, good and bad. The first Pres Bush got too much heat for the bad economy and Cliton and Bush both get too much credit for the good. Presidents have very little effect. Bush maybe more than others because of the tax cuts but that is debateable.

[QUOTE]
3- He has had VERY good unemployment rates all the while lowering taxes for everyone including the poor.
[/QUOTE]
Well yes unemployemt is lower. See above. Same thing. As for lowering taxes, that is a weird one. Yes he lowered taxes and yes he lowered taxes mostly for rich people. That is because rich people pay most of the taxes in this country. He didn't really lower much in taxes for poor people because they don't pay much to begin with.
[QUOTE]
6- He prevented Nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
All by himself?
[QUOTE]
9- Decapitating Al Quaeda's top leadership and preventing another massive attack on US soil.
[/QUOTE]
Al Queda is as strong as ever. There's not much he could have done either way. To destroy terrorists group like that will take decades at least.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=FRPLG;328458]I am not a Bush basher but I am going to respond to some of these:

Yeah so he has exactly zero control over this. Given him credit is silly. He has absolutely no impact on interest rates. Totally market and Federla Reserve driven.

Presidents get too much credit for this both ways, good and bad. The first Pres Bush got too much heat for the bad economy and Cliton and Bush both get too much credit for the good. Presidents have very little effect. Bush maybe more than others because of the tax cuts but that is debateable.


Well yes unemployemt is lower. See above. Same thing. As for lowering taxes, that is a weird one. Yes he lowered taxes and yes he lowered taxes mostly for rich people. That is because rich people pay most of the taxes in this country. He didn't really lower much in taxes for poor people because they don't pay much to begin with.

All by himself?

Al Queda is as strong as ever. There's not much he could have done either way. To destroy terrorists group like that will take decades at least.[/quote]


Good points, especially about monetary policy.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328420]I can think of nothing but sarcasm to this post, so I will keep it short and sweet. You came out of your little retirement to post this?

While I am sure Matty and I don't see eye to eye, I would hope we have enough of an understanding to speak open with one another. I have no ill feelings for Matty, in fact he was the one that helped me come back to this site after my daughter died...and I hope Matty has no ill feelings towards me. We just have vastly different opinions when it comes to politics.[/quote]

I find it funny how some people find it neccesary to always have to brown nose the people in charge, may it be here or at work, or where ever. I am not talking you Jsarno.