Campbell's development curve
 

At the risk of this devolving into another 'conservative playcalling' thread, has the way the offense been called and executed accelerated Campbell's development curve or do you think he's been held back too much??

From JLa's blog today, the Skins now rank 28th in total offense. 25th in yards per rush (3.5) and 25th in passing yards per game. They are 28th in first downs and 22nd in points per game (18). The offense has 13 touchdowns through 7 games.

I am going to agree ahead of time that the offensive line issues have an impact on the offense and the rankings.. With the exception of yesterday and the 2nd half of the Packers game however, they have done a very good job of protecting Campbell.. Since pass protection seems to be what they do better than pushing the pile, should we put the ball in Campbell's hands more, open up the offense and let playmakers make plays in the 2nd half of the season and let him put us into the playoffs or keep doing what we've been doing and hope for better results?

It seems like Campbell is so handcuffed (and Moss alluded to that overall in a postgame interview yesterday) that he's trying not to lose games rather than trying to win them.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Of course....look what Derek Anderson has done on a horrible horrible team. I think Jason could become our most threatening offensive player. Cannot truly learn at practice. He needs game experience throwing the ball.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

If the receivers don't do their part, it doesn't matter how many times Jason throws.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;370898]Of course....look what Derek Anderson has done on a horrible horrible team. I think Jason could become our most threatening offensive player. Cannot truly learn at practice. He needs game experience throwing the ball.[/QUOTE]

Anderson, Jay Cutler, Schaub & Romo are who come to mind as inexperienced QB who are allowed to 'play to win the game' to paraphrase Herm and are improving weekly.. With the exception of Romo, I don't think any of them have the playmakers to rival what we (allegedly) have..

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

No run game, beat up o-line, hamstrung WRs with dropitis, and some tough Ds--don't know how much sending JC into a deep shot-gun drop will help. But we'll see. He's got to improve his reads and his accuracy, but that will come, IMO.

I've liked him all year in 2-minute--maybe we'll start to see a bit more of that, some no huddle and such. But it's a long-term growth process. Asking him to win it all by himslef now won't do it, I think. But as the coaches get more confidence in him, he'll get more plays.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Jason has started to regress a little, if you look at the Patriots and Cardinals games. He's overthrown wide-open receivers in each of the past three games, and his three fumbles yesterday were sloppy. Of course the weakened offensive line came into play there.

He needs to shrug off the past two games, and Saunders needs to call a more wide-open game against the Jets. Our offense is very bad and hard to watch right now. Campbell will be a very good QB, but right now, we're stuck in neutral.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=Paintrain;370892]At the risk of this devolving into another 'conservative playcalling' thread, has the way the offense been called and executed accelerated Campbell's development curve or do you think he's been held back too much??

From JLa's blog today, the Skins now rank 28th in total offense. 25th in yards per rush (3.5) and 25th in passing yards per game. They are 28th in first downs and 22nd in points per game (18). The offense has 13 touchdowns through 7 games.

I am going to agree ahead of time that the offensive line issues have an impact on the offense and the rankings.. With the exception of yesterday and the 2nd half of the Packers game however, they have done a very good job of protecting Campbell.. Since pass protection seems to be what they do better than pushing the pile, should we put the ball in Campbell's hands more, open up the offense and let playmakers make plays in the 2nd half of the season and let him put us into the playoffs or keep doing what we've been doing and hope for better results?

It seems like Campbell is so handcuffed (and Moss alluded to that overall in a postgame interview yesterday) that he's trying not to lose games rather than trying to win them.[/quote]I think this is a great thread.

I've studied QB progression [I]very [/I]extensively, and I can tell you that what goes on in games is such a miniscule factor of a QB's development that it's basically a variable that you can just write off.

A lot more of how a QB develops has to do with how many practice reps he gets, and how often he gets those reps.

Campbell has made significant improvement over last season. You can see it in his completion percentage, even in games when he fails. He's now a consistent 60% passer even when the shit hits the fan around him.

His teammates have major control over his declining yards per attempt, specifically the blocking. I believe that will improve as soon as the blocking does. He can go off any week now.

Campbell has shown signs of inexperience, but most of his failures seem to be ones that are directly tied to the guys around him. When their play improves, you'll see Campbell's TD/INT numbers jump through the roof.

And it's all because of the specific personal improvement he has dedicated to getting his completion % up.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[QUOTE=JWsleep;370915]No run game, beat up o-line, hamstrung WRs with dropitis, and some tough Ds--don't know how much sending JC into a deep shot-gun drop will help. But we'll see. He's got to improve his reads and his accuracy, but that will come, IMO.

I've liked him all year in 2-minute--maybe we'll start to see a bit more of that, some no huddle and such. But it's a long-term growth process. Asking him to win it all by himslef now won't do it, I think. But as the coaches get more confidence in him, he'll get more plays.[/QUOTE]

Why do people equate opening up the offense to 'deep shotgun drop' or 'throwing bombs every play'? Yes, there is a significant vertical aspect to that but opening up the offense also means-
-Running the no huddle in non 2 minute drill situations
-Throwing the ball intermediately rather than 4 yard outs
-Designed roll outs
-Being unpredictable on 1st and 2nd down

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;370898]Of course....look what Derek Anderson has done on a horrible horrible team. I think Jason could become our most threatening offensive player. Cannot truly learn at practice. He needs game experience throwing the ball.[/quote]

I would hardly call Clev. terrible. On offense they are quite good. Right now I would take Braylon Edwards over any WR on our roster. Winslow is also playing like a top TE. Joe J. has always been a good 2nd wr. Plus they have invested quite heavily on the O-line.

Say what you want about D. Anderson but he was a very very productive QB at Ore. State and played in a pro style offense. He has a big time NFL arm. He was well coached in college. I can't remember the coaches name at Ore State but the guy was the head coach at SD. for a few years. Sometimes all a guy needs is a little time and a chance to prove himself. The result is they are starting to really score some points this year and he is keeping Brady Quinn on the bench.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=skinsfan69;370934]I would hardly call Clev. terrible. On offense they are quite good. Right now I would take Braylon Edwards over any WR on our roster. Winslow is also playing like a top TE. Joe J. has always been a good 2nd wr. Plus they have invested quite heavily on the O-line.

Say what you want about D. Anderson but he was a very very productive QB at Ore. State and played in a pro style offense. He has a big time NFL arm. He was well coached in college. I can't remember the coaches name at Ore State but the guy was the head coach at SD. for a few years. Sometimes all a guy needs is a little time and a chance to prove himself. The result is they are starting to really score some points this year and he is keeping Brady Quinn on the bench.[/quote]

Yeah I agree, if Cleveland had a defense they would be dangerous right now.

As for Anderson, I think the Browns might have a situation on their hands similar to the Chargers a few years ago with Brees/Rivers.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=skinsfan69;370934]I would hardly call Clev. terrible. On offense they are quite good. Right now I would take Braylon Edwards over any WR on our roster. Winslow is also playing like a top TE. Joe J. has always been a good 2nd wr. Plus they have invested quite heavily on the O-line.

Say what you want about D. Anderson but he was a very very productive QB at Ore. State and played in a pro style offense. He has a big time NFL arm. He was well coached in college. I can't remember the coaches name at Ore State but the guy was the head coach at SD. for a few years. Sometimes all a guy needs is a little time and a chance to prove himself. The result is they are starting to really score some points this year and he is keeping Brady Quinn on the bench.[/quote]Mike Riley?

A lot of people were high on Derek Anderson coming out of the draft. He has good (not great) periphrials (comp % and games started) but he's proven to be a good (not great) NFL caliber starter.

Now, scouts that liked him I guess were higher on guys like Aaron Rogers, Alex Smith and Charlie Frye. They of course overlooked the two biggest prospects of that draft: Jason Campbell and Derek Anderson.

The question is, will Derek Anderson go the Jon Kitna route or the Drew Brees/Matt Schaub route? Will he stay as Quinn's backup until his contract expires, or will he get traded and/or walk to another team?

Anderson is for real, as long as you temper the expectations for him. He is a top 32 QB in this league and a legit starter, but I doubt he will ever be in a pro bowl.


Anderson's year has been overrated to this point, as his play has been filled more with potential than with consistency, but the important stuff is there, and he will continue to improve.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370936]Yeah I agree, if Cleveland had a defense they would be dangerous right now.

As for Anderson, I think the Browns might have a situation on their hands similar to the Chargers a few years ago with Brees/Rivers.[/quote]I think Cleveland will make the playoffs. They just have to beat out Tennessee (who has a great defense, but no offense, much like us) for that 6th seed, and win about 10 games.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Bet the Ravens wish they had kept Anderson now...or maybe not.

A healthy Braylon Edwards has been huge though

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=skinsfan69;370934]I would hardly call Clev. terrible. On offense they are quite good. Right now I would take Braylon Edwards over any WR on our roster. Winslow is also playing like a top TE. Joe J. has always been a good 2nd wr. Plus they have invested quite heavily on the O-line.

Say what you want about D. Anderson but he was a very very productive QB at Ore. State and played in a pro style offense. He has a big time NFL arm. He was well coached in college. I can't remember the coaches name at Ore State but the guy was the head coach at SD. for a few years. Sometimes all a guy needs is a little time and a chance to prove himself. The result is they are starting to really score some points this year and he is keeping Brady Quinn on the bench.[/quote]

Didn't cleveland have the #3 pick in the draft? how were they not terrible? Wasnt ROMEO about to get fired? Don't they still have zero running game and a bad defense?

Don't give me running game numbers please....jamal lewis has been horrible despite one game and in garbage time

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Braylon is sick, he was in the heisman talk for a while

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[quote=The Zimmermans;370944]Didn't cleveland have the #3 pick in the draft? how were they not terrible? Wasnt ROMEO about to get fired? Don't they still have zero running game and a bad defense?

Don't give me running game numbers please....jamal lewis has been horrible despite one game and in garbage time[/quote]

I'm talking about this year, not last year.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Yeah, Derek Anderson is starting this year.....not understanding you i guess

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Back to JC, he definitely has looked off these past two weeks. I still have faith in him, but my once rock-solid belief that we was a Pro Bowler in the making has been shaken.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Hey, it's a process here. He's not a pro-bowler yet, and no doubt the jury is still out. The next few games are mighty big for JC. The main thing, IMO, is to eliminate the TOs and hit the 3rd down reads better. I don't need the sudden long-bomb thing--that's going to take more time, especially given the o-line.

The whole team from top to bottom got spanked yesterday--don't think it's the best thing to do to judge JC on this. Better, look at his RESPONSE to this. That will tell us much more, I believe.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Hey, the guy threw a TD at the end, in a thoroughly humiliating undressing that ANYBODY could have been excused for sitting out the rest of. I'd say that speaks volumes to start off with.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=Paintrain;370892]At the risk of this devolving into another 'conservative playcalling' thread, has the way the offense been called and executed accelerated Campbell's development curve or do you think he's been held back too much??

From JLa's blog today, the Skins now rank 28th in total offense. 25th in yards per rush (3.5) and 25th in passing yards per game. They are 28th in first downs and 22nd in points per game (18). The offense has 13 touchdowns through 7 games.

I am going to agree ahead of time that the offensive line issues have an impact on the offense and the rankings.. With the exception of yesterday and the 2nd half of the Packers game however, they have done a very good job of protecting Campbell.. Since pass protection seems to be what they do better than pushing the pile, should we put the ball in Campbell's hands more, open up the offense and let playmakers make plays in the 2nd half of the season and let him put us into the playoffs or keep doing what we've been doing and hope for better results?

It seems like Campbell is so handcuffed (and Moss alluded to that overall in a postgame interview yesterday) that he's trying not to lose games rather than trying to win them.[/quote]

Pass protection is a problem. So how about ( I have mentioned this before) putting JC in shotgun on 1st down instead of 3rd and long? How about running play action passes out of shotgun? Or how about running playaction and then run the screen off of it? NE did this to us yesterday for a big gains. It's like we have no creativity on offense what so ever. I honestly hate our offense and I know this is not Al Sanders offense. This is Gibbs dictating to him.

Interesting commets by Sanders last week. He said it was a staff decision to pull back and let the defense win the game. Then he said to Kelli Johnson from Sportsnet, "Well you know me, I'm aggressive by nature." He sort said it with a chuckle. He basically said he didn't want to pull back but he just went along with what the other guys wanted.

Gibbs and his gang just need to be removed from any playcalling/game planning all together. Enough is enough. Let Al do it since that is why he is getting paid 2 million a year. I didn't see this crap going on it KC. All they had were Holmes and Tony G. ( not to mention a nice o-line) and they were in the top 5 in offense every year. Who were the wr's? Eddie Kennison? C'mon. Its time to let him do it his way.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

JC doing fine. Its the coaching staff killing him. Heaven forbid we throw the ball down the field

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=Paintrain;370914]Anderson, Jay Cutler, Schaub & Romo are who come to mind as inexperienced QB who are allowed to 'play to win the game' to paraphrase Herm and are improving weekly.. With the exception of Romo, I don't think any of them have the playmakers to rival what we (allegedly) have..[/quote]


I concur Pain, our WR bums hurt JC so far, although they did post half decent numbers against NE, but that was when the game was out of reach. To be honest Patrick looked better his first year than JC so far, but at least Patrick was allowed to let the balls fly, and he did it with far less collective talent to boot. With the Wr screw ups it is hard to gage JC to be honest, but he doesn't look as good as he did when he came in last season the past few games. I think he has been held back somewhat, whcih is a shame. We need to find out if this guy is really the next franchise QB or not and soon. Thus far his grade at QB is an Incomplete.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Well I think the level to which our offensive supporting cast has been overrated is quickly becoming clear. Springs had a great point last year talking about the defense, but it applies to the offense as well. He said if you want to know how good you really are, don't look at the names or the contracts, look at the best defense in the league and ask yourself who from your team would start for them.

So if the Pats are the best offense, who do we have who would start for them. Randy Thomas? Maybe? Portis? Maybe maybe not. That's about it.

We haven't had a franchise quarterback in 30 something years so I hope we all give the FO time to construct a team built around Campbell and his strengths before we go writing him off.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=JWsleep;371059]Hey, it's a process here. He's not a pro-bowler yet, and no doubt the jury is still out. The next few games are mighty big for JC. The main thing, IMO, is to eliminate the TOs and hit the 3rd down reads better. I don't need the sudden long-bomb thing--that's going to take more time, especially given the o-line.

The whole team from top to bottom got spanked yesterday--don't think it's the best thing to do to judge JC on this. Better, look at his RESPONSE to this. That will tell us much more, I believe.[/quote]


We need him to play consistently before predicting Pro Bowl status yet. It will be a couple seasons at least til he gets to that level with the scrubs we have at WR now. We need to dump Llyod and maybe even Moss if he continues his quiet streak.

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[quote=djnemo65;371107]Well I think the level to which our offensive supporting cast has been overrated is quickly becoming clear. Springs had a great point last year talking about the defense, but it applies to the offense as well. He said if you want to know how good you really are, don't like at the names or the contracts, look at the best defense in the league and ask yourself who from your team would start for them.

So if the Pats are the best offense, who do we have who would start for them. Randy Thomas? Maybe? Portis? Maybe maybe not. That's about it.

We haven't had a franchise quarterback in 30 something years so I hope we all give the FO time to construct a team built around Campbell and his strengths before we go writing him off.[/quote]

Man that's a good analogy. We probably don't have one guy on our whole team that would start for NE. Portis maybe. That's a big maybe.

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Samuels>Todd Light

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;371121]Samuels>Todd Light[/QUOTE]

Think so? Samuels is good but Light is one of the most underrated players in the league.

If they had a chance to trade straight up I bet they wouldn't, just thinking about it hypothetically.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

Speaking of Campbell's development, I wonder if Gibbs and Saunders have thought about allowing Jason and the offense to run more of the no huddle offense. Jason seems to do a pretty good job when the Redskins are in the no huddle. In fact, it almost seems like it helps him to get into a rhythm. Now, I realize the Pats were in a prevent defense, but starting off a game in the no huddle could be the spark our offense and Campbell needs to get things going. This could only help open things up for our running attack as well.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

I like JC and think he is improved over last year, but I'm really not sold on him yet. I'm not sure if its the playcalling or whatever but he's gotta show some ability to win games at some point. At this point i don't think we can be so sure that he's our QB for the next 5 yrs+. Don't get me wrong, i think he's got great potential but alot of backup qb's have potential. Patrick Ramsey had great potential. We've seen a couple pretty good games from him but nothing that defines what potential he has. 3 TD games...300yard games? Alot of people want to make him out to be alot better than what he is right now. I'm optimistic but JC's got to continue to get better.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

[quote=Paintrain;370892] the Skins now rank 28th in total offense. 25th in yards per rush (3.5) and 25th in passing yards per game. They are 28th in first downs and 22nd in points per game (18). The offense has 13 touchdowns through 7 games.
[/quote]

A lot of that is the opponents that Washington faced. Very few were crappy defenses, and most are fairly established squads.

But do not read too much into that after the NE game, that one game really put a scar on the Redskins rankings on both sides of the ball.

On defense, prior to the New England game, Washington was ranked 5th in total defense in the NFL and the best defense in the NFC east. They were also ranked #1 in the NFL in scoring defense.

After the New England game, the Washington defense is now ranked 12th in the NFL in total defense, ranked 15th in scoring defense and is LAST in the NFC East.

Everyone knows this team is better than those rankings

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The Skins have Randle El, Moss, Portis, Cooley . . . That's a lot of talent. There's no reason Campbell should be handcuffed by Gibbs. Let the youn man play!

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[quote=The Zimmermans;370944]Didn't cleveland have the #3 pick in the draft? how were they not terrible? Wasnt ROMEO about to get fired? Don't they still have zero running game and a bad defense?

Don't give me running game numbers please....jamal lewis has been horrible despite one game and in garbage time[/quote]

In the modern NFL a teams performance in the previous year is no indicator of how they will perform in the next year. Saying Cleveland had the 3rd pick in the draft is completely meaningless. Their defense has been horrible but they certainly have weapons and I gather their o-line is holding up. The comparisons are pointless, however, it is about JC not about anybody else. Before this week he wasn't the problem with the offense. That he played poorly against a Belichick defense shouldn't send everyone jumping off a cliff.

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[QUOTE=GTripp0012;371121]Samuels>Todd Light[/QUOTE]

I think so. I also agree that Thomas, Cooley and Portis would likely start for the Pats.

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[QUOTE=SC Skins Fan;371201]In the modern NFL a teams performance in the previous year is no indicator of how they will perform in the next year. Saying Cleveland had the 3rd pick in the draft is completely meaningless. Their defense has been horrible but they certainly have weapons and I gather their o-line is holding up. The comparisons are pointless, however, it is about JC not about anybody else. Before this week he wasn't the problem with the offense. That he played poorly against a Belichick defense shouldn't send everyone jumping off a cliff.[/QUOTE]

Well put. I completely agree.

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Its the guys first year running the offense if Troy Aikman was playing with these receivers and this line his first year he would be horrible too.The guy will be ok.At least he does not get rattled and he is tough and coachable .Get rid of B.lloyd!!!!!

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[quote=spurriercoles9;371275]Its the guys first year running the offense if Troy Aikman was playing with these receivers and this line his first year he would be horrible too.The guy will be ok.At least he does not get rattled and he is tough and coachable .Get rid of B.lloyd!!!!![/quote]
He looked rattled against the Pats but I will add that was the first time I have really seen him rattled. How many time do we have to say Lloyd is not going anywhere this year because of the cap hit we would take.

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[quote=redsk1;371165]Alot of people want to make him out to be alot better than what he is right now. I'm optimistic but JC's got to continue to get better.[/quote]

What's to say that he won't get better? Giants fans have been bitching about Eli for two seasons, but now he's finally looking like a legit NFL quarterback.

Campbell struggles against the best team in football, and now he's not showing people enough? I'm sure everyone would love to see him blow up this week, but it'll be a little tough when there is no running game to speak of, the offensive line is decimated, and receivers drop 40 yard passes. And I personally think he's shown enough to prove he can be successful in the NFL. Mechanics can be coached. Poise and intelligence can't be taught, and Campbell has a lot of both.

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How many of you guys were screaming at the TV when the skins tried 5 or 6 screen plays to Widereicevers in the first half of the game on sunday? I know me and my fellow skins fans I was watching the game with were. Also on the Oline problems they are all centered around not having Jansen and Thomas. The other 3 guys Samuels, Kendall, and Rabach are getting the job done. The 3 fumbles on Sunday were all on Wade. He couldn't block Vrabel. Lord help us if the cowbays line up Ware on Wades side.

Re: Campbell's development curve
 

I think some people are getting a little ahead of themselves with their expectations of JC's progress. I think he's right about where he should be in terms of development, and in terms of some of the intangibles such as poise he's way ahead of the game.