Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I'm on the fence on this one so I thought I would toss up a poll.

Should Al Saunders return next year to run the offense?

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I was a bit on the fence, but the past month (especially the last two weeks) has me leaning toward yes. Really the key to it all is Jason Campbell's growth (and apparently taking Wade out of the lineup).

We've seen the past two games that both Gibbs' and Saunders' philosophies can coexist. We have moved the ball fairly well with Collins at QB under adverse conditions (weather and otherwise) both through the air and on the ground, and to several different players, while still maintaining a max protect philosophy (at times even Heavy Jumbo).

I don't buy the notion that Saunders is somehow smarter or more innovative than Gibbs. But I do think that he's the only other person on the team I would trust to run the offense while Gibbs focuses on overseeing the entire organization.

The one change I would make is give Saunders play-calling control end zone to end zone, taking that red zone responsibility away from Gibbs. I think it's easier that way.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I just said, no.

Here's why. If Gibbs hasn't given Saunders complete control up to this point, next year aint going to mount to a hill of beans. Also, the continuity thing is old and worn out if you ask me. Yes, it's important but I don't think that's what's causing the ineffectiveness here.

We should end the Saunders experiment and move on.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I said yes but he has to be able to do his thing. He seems willing to change his style to fit his players and I think in year 3 we could be a force.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I think Al Saunders is what's best for this team offensively, in that he knows Gibbs and they have a similar coaching background and philosophy. And while their conservatism differs, I think they do mesh very well.

Injuries aside, this team is very close to being a year in, year out competitive team. The pieces are there. Once Campbell develops a bit more (into year 2 of his starts), and they fill the holes, this Redskins team should be able to dominate the NFC East.

That being said, Al Saunders may just get a head coaching job elsewhere before all is said and done...maybe not for '08, but down the road, especially if Gibbs re-ups.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I agree with everyone that Saunders is the best thing and the last two weeks have shifted somewhat, but I just don't think Gibbs will start a fresh season with Al as the absolute head of the offense. And if he's not, then move on.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I think that he needs to come back next year. I think that Gibbs needs to get a killer mantelity on offense and let Saunders loose. I was so pissed sunday night when we got the ball back after the giants scored a TD and we went three running plays and out. I immediatly thought "Here we go again, try to sit on a 12 point lead, and end up loosing in the 4th!!" IMO, Gibbs needs to go for the kill!!!!

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;394696]I think that he needs to come back next year. I think that Gibbs needs to get a killer mantelity on offense and let Saunders loose. I was so pissed sunday night when we got the ball back after the giants scored a TD and we went three running plays and out. I immediatly thought "Here we go again, try to sit on a 12 point lead, and end up loosing in the 4th!!" IMO, Gibbs needs to go for the kill!!!![/QUOTE]

Fine line between kill or be killed. Why force something that isn't there especially when we're pinned back near our own end zone. Going for the kill doesn't have to be as glamorous as an 80-yard bomb. It can also mean giving the opponent a slow death by forcing them to burn their timeouts, milking the clock down, and pinning them deep in their own territory needing to score twice.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[quote=12thMan;394688]I just said, no.

Here's why. If Gibbs hasn't given Saunders complete control up to this point, next year aint going to mount to a hill of beans. Also, the continuity thing is old and worn out if you ask me. Yes, it's important but I don't think that's what's causing the ineffectiveness here.

We should end the Saunders experiment and move on.[/quote]

I guess you're right. The Cowboys didn't seem to have problems with a new OC AND head coach.

Still though, I think Gibbs had a little too much influence on the game plan. I want one more year of Campbell maturing and then we'll see where we are.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;394724]I guess you're right. The Cowboys didn't seem to have problems with a new OC AND head coach.

Still though, I think Gibbs had a little too much influence on the game plan. I want one more year of Campbell maturing and then we'll see where we are.[/quote]

Honestly, I think Campbell is going to break out next year regardless of who's coaching. He seems to be putting in the work to improve his game. And if can get down just a little of Saunder's playbook, anyone else's wouldn't pose too much of problem for him. At least I would think.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;394705]Fine line between kill or be killed. Why force something that isn't there especially when we're pinned back near our own end zone. Going for the kill doesn't have to be as glamorous as an 80-yard bomb. It can also mean giving the opponent a slow death by forcing them to burn their timeouts, milking the clock down, and pinning them deep in their own territory needing to score twice.[/QUOTE]

I voted for Al to return with the caveat that he gets FULL control over playcalling/offense.. Here's where the playcalling argument always goes.. I agree that going for the kill doesn't have to be an 80 yard bomb, but do you honestly think that plunging into the line for 3 straight plays, especially on third and 6 is a slow death for the opponent? Killer instinct (see New England) is running your offense, your ENTIRE offense, for 60 minutes.. Playing for the win is different than playing not to lose..

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;394705]Fine line between kill or be killed. Why force something that isn't there especially when we're pinned back near our own end zone. Going for the kill doesn't have to be as glamorous as an 80-yard bomb. It can also mean giving the opponent a slow death by forcing them to burn their timeouts, milking the clock down, and pinning them deep in their own territory needing to score twice.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying but look at buffalo, we could have won that game but we sat on the lead. I understand what you are saying, I just get tired of loosing games because we don't put teams away when we have the chance...

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[quote=Paintrain;394733]I voted for Al to return with the caveat that he gets FULL control over playcalling/offense.. Here's where the playcalling argument always goes.. I agree that going for the kill doesn't have to be an 80 yard bomb, but do you honestly think that plunging into the line for 3 straight plays, especially on third and 6 is a slow death for the opponent? Killer instinct (see New England) is running your offense, your ENTIRE offense, for 60 minutes.. Playing for the win is different than playing not to lose..[/quote]


But see that's the caveat: full control. I'm telling you now, I don't see it happening. If he returns, they'll continue to tinker around the edges to make it look like Al is in control, but I just don't see it.

Joe just might as well take it all back. Honestly, and this is just my opinion, but I think for Gibbs to be 100% effective, he needs to be all the way dialed into the game. Part of the clock mismanagement and botched timeouts is due to Gibbs having to fade in and out of the game and consult the other guy. It's just too much for him manage inside his own head.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;394733]I voted for Al to return with the caveat that he gets FULL control over playcalling/offense.. Here's where the playcalling argument always goes.. I agree that going for the kill doesn't have to be an 80 yard bomb, but do you honestly think that plunging into the line for 3 straight plays, especially on third and 6 is a slow death for the opponent? Killer instinct (see New England) is running your offense, your ENTIRE offense, for 60 minutes.. Playing for the win is different than playing not to lose..[/QUOTE]

Well we also shouldn't assume, as too many do, that "failed" plays-particularly failed running plays are because of Gibbs. Every great play is followed by "What a great call by Saunders" and retarded threads like "This is Al Saunders' offense" But botched plays are "Old Man Gibbs needs to go" Not saying everyone does this, but a lot of people do.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I think Saunders; system works. We have seen it work with less talent. The keys are that he needs to be given full control. No meshing of systems or anything like that. Also, he needs to commit to putting the full system in with Campbell. I don't buy that he can't run the system like Collins can. I know he'll make mistakes that Collins wouldn't make but he'll also make plays that Collins can only duplicate in Madden. And his mistakes will disappear more quickly through live action. I am fully supportive of trial by fire at this point. So I say yes.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

Someone stated similar philosophies...

However, they are not the same. And even a small difference can mess up the cohesiveness of the offense. If the two are similar yet slighty evolved, then more then likely it'll effect the way the offense will be executed.

For example: There are the Spaniards who live in Spain speak spanish. Then there are the Latin Americans. Even though the Latin America was derived from Spain once a time long ago, the two are totally different identities.

With that said, I do not think Saunders is a good fit in Washington. We've given him 2 years to build and I have yet to see any progress. We have only scored 30 points or more ONCE this season. That is a direct result of the offense that is being executed. Whether it is that the players arent adjusting, execution, preparation. It doesnt matter, I believe we've given him enough time to implement his offense. And there has yet to be any real progress thus far.

I say let him go.

And lets be honest, the only reason why we win game is not because of our explosive offense, it's because our defense puts us in a position to stay in the game.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I certainly wouldn't want Campbell to start over in another variation of the Gibbs/Coryell offense. I feel that we are very close to being an outstanding offense. Saunders version of that offensive system has been prolific in KC and St Louis - let's give it a full chance to work here.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

Saunders system works. Let him have complete control of the offense. Don't even give Joe Gibbs a headset. Let Saunders call the plays, 2 pt, 1 pt, 4th down, etc calls. This dudes offenses have been on top of the NFL many years for a reason.

We gotta take the shackles off Campbell, and work on our redzone offense, along with staying aggressive. I hate seeing us take a 3 point league and act like we have the game wrapped up.

Im not saying Gibbs keeps us from doing that, we don't know. If it's all on Al, then fine, but I want to know.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I think Al needs to come back, but only if Gibbs stops riding his back. (If he is doing so). We see that the team is capable of amazing things if they open up the playbook. JC will be starting on his 2 year of starting, its time to let the reins off JC and off the playbook and see what we're really capable of.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I am surprised a majority of people said yes. Thank you for seeing the light. Yes continuity is the key.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[quote=Daseal;394781]Saunders system works. Let him have complete control of the offense. Don't even give Joe Gibbs a headset. Let Saunders call the plays, 2 pt, 1 pt, 4th down, etc calls. This dudes offenses have been on top of the NFL many years for a reason.

We gotta take the shackles off Campbell, and work on our redzone offense, along with staying aggressive. I hate seeing us take a 3 point league and act like we have the game wrapped up.

Im not saying Gibbs keeps us from doing that, we don't know. If it's all on Al, then fine, but I want to know.[/quote]

LOL!!!! I gotta say you made my ass crack up. Gibbs w/out a headset! But the thing is I agree w/ you 100%. Al knows what he's doing and Joe just needs to get out of the way with his jumbo packages. There is a time for that jumbo stuff, like Sun. night. But I don't think we're going to go into Minn. and run them over. They have a very strong front 7. We had better spread them out and try to throw on these guys. They stink against the pass.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I think Saunders should return, but Williams needs to go. IF Gibbs stays on the sidelines he needs to give TOTAL offensive control to Saunders. Gibbs would obviously create the overall gameplan and handle the critical coaching decisions but all offensive playcalling needs to be with Saunders. Give a guy all the rope he asks for and he'll either be successful or hang himself.

GWs defense has done fairly well statistically, but the second half breakdowns game after game are a major concern and show a major coaching flaw. The stat they showed in the game Sunday night was that Gibbs 1.0 was 2nd best in the NFL in protecting 2nd half leads from 1982-92 (Richie Petitbone). Gibbs 2.0 was either the worst or 2nd worst in the same stat since 2004 (GW). Gibbs' offensive philosopy hasn't changed dramatically, Gibbs 1.0 was constantly criticized for being "too conservative" also. So IMO this is primarily a D-Coordinator issue. What this indicates is good preparation going into the game but the ability to "think on your feet" and make in-game adjustments is poor. We need to make sure our defense is strong, and makes good halftime adjustments because in late Nov. & December in the NFC East the elements can limit an offense severely and the D must carry us.

The D-Coordinator I would like to see is Ron Rivera. He had extremely successful defenses in Chicago from 2004-2006 and you see how they're doing this year without him. He's currently a LB coach in San Diego so their wouldn't be any problem with him taking the D-Coordinator job.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

Now Williams needs to go?

LOL this place cracks me up sometimes I swear.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I also think that it is time we get rid of Williams. I would definitely love to bring in Rivera to replace him since he used to run that cover-2 sceme in Chicago. Saunders should definitely return but only given full control. If I was Saunders I would say if I come back I need to run this offense by myself and get the personnel needed to run his system.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;394794]Now Williams needs to go?

LOL this place cracks me up sometimes I swear.[/quote]

I am glad some of the people here do not run the team.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

Wasn't this past year the first year that Campbell had the same coordinator consecutively? Let's maintain continuity for his sake and see what he can do.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

Williams has been the only constant this team has had for 20 years. He had one down spot, but besides one year, his defense has done amazing things.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I think Jason needs stability with one system.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I voted form him to go but I am on the fence here. I like Gibbs in a CEO role which is more what he has become this season. I don't want to see him become the OC again but I think the offense is more effecient scaled back. I am in favor of run 15 plays but run them to perfection. IMO, Saunders offense causes everyone to overthink and not just play.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[quote=Daseal;394807]Williams has been the only constant this team has had for 20 years. He had one down spot, but besides one year, his defense has done amazing things.[/quote]
2004 was amazing defensively
2005 was in the top 1/3, but didn't create many turnovers, overall good
2006 poor, set NFL record low for turnovers created
2007 average at best. 2nd half of games have been poor defensively. 26th in generating turnovers.

The trend is going down, not up. Obviously after last year there was no where to go but up. We should be seeing consistent improvement or at least a steady level of defensive play in the top 1/3 of the NFL for a guy that is one of the highest paid coordinators. Gibbs has given him whatever he has asked for (Taylor, Rogers, McIntosh, Landry, Archuletta, Fletcher, Carter). Even with injuries and Sean's death, we have at least average talent on the defensive side of the ball.

Tampa's D for a few years was amazing, Ravens D was amazing. Bears D 2005-06 was amazing. Our defense has not been amazing outside of 2004.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I do not like this question at all. It's glaringly obvious we need to keep Saunders.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;394688]I just said, no.

Here's why. If Gibbs hasn't given Saunders complete control up to this point, next year aint going to mount to a hill of beans. [B]Also, the continuity thing is old and worn out if you ask me. [/B]Yes, it's important but I don't think that's what's causing the ineffectiveness here.

We should end the Saunders experiment and move on.[/QUOTE]

According to the players, continuity is a huge deal. Having the same offensive system in place while Campbell is still young and learning is much better than making him learn a completely new system.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;394705]Fine line between kill or be killed. Why force something that isn't there especially when we're pinned back near our own end zone. Going for the kill doesn't have to be as glamorous as an 80-yard bomb. It can also mean giving the opponent a slow death by forcing them to burn their timeouts, milking the clock down, and pinning them deep in their own territory needing to score twice.[/QUOTE]

See, here's the problem. "Going for the Kill" doesn't have mean 'throwing a 80 yard bomb' or trying to 'force something that isn't there.'

There are high percentage passing plays available -- a 4 to 6 yard pattern to a tight end in the flat, a wideout screen...

Your last sentence is something they've tried many times this season, and it's come back to bite them. Fortunately, the Giants offense was inept Sunday night and that strategy happened to work for the first time in weeks.

Needless to say, I was jacked up for calling three straight running plays too.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=redskinz79;394750]And lets be honest, the only reason why we win game is not because of our explosive offense, it's because our defense puts us in a position to stay in the game.[/QUOTE]

The 2004 Redskins do not support this argument. That team had a fantastic defense. But the offense couldn't score. The result was a 6-10 season.

Even the best defenses you've ever seen can have a breakdown or two. And that doesn't even account for your opponent scoring on a punt or interception return.

You have to be able to score points offensively. The defense cannot do everything on their own.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;394824]2004 was amazing defensively
2005 was in the top 1/3, but didn't create many turnovers, overall good
2006 poor, set NFL record low for turnovers created
2007 average at best. 2nd half of games have been poor defensively. 26th in generating turnovers.

The trend is going down, not up. Obviously after last year there was no where to go but up. We should be seeing consistent improvement or at least a steady level of defensive play in the top 1/3 of the NFL for a guy that is one of the highest paid coordinators. Gibbs has given him whatever he has asked for (Taylor, Rogers, McIntosh, Landry, Archuletta, Fletcher, Carter). Even with injuries and Sean's death, we have at least average talent on the defensive side of the ball.

Tampa's D for a few years was amazing, Ravens D was amazing. Bears D 2005-06 was amazing. Our defense has not been amazing outside of 2004.[/QUOTE]
I'm not to the point for calling for his job outright but I am off of the Grilliams bandwagon.. The defense is decent, but is getting killed in the 2nd halves of games..

The offense has had more injuries (entire right side of the OL, Rabach, Moss, ARE, Thrash, Sellers, Campbell have all missed some or all of games this year) than the defense (Rogers, Washington, Taylor-RIP, now McIntosh) yet the offense has still be relatively productive, especially in first halves of games, but the D has not held up late in games..

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;394842]See, here's the problem. "Going for the Kill" doesn't have mean 'throwing a 80 yard bomb' or trying to 'force something that isn't there.'

There are high percentage passing plays available -- a 4 to 6 yard pattern to a tight end in the flat, a wideout screen...

Your last sentence is something they've tried many times this season, and it's come back to bite them. Fortunately, the Giants offense was inept Sunday night and that strategy happened to work for the first time in weeks.

Needless to say, I was jacked up for calling three straight running plays too.[/QUOTE]

Personally I would have liked another draw on a delay on that last sequence, or even a draw out of a shotgun. And I agree that short, intermediate passes could work. Especially considering the great job the offensive line did the other night.

However, I don't think the majority of people here who say go for the kill mean anything less than launching it deep for one of our players to run under and gallop into the end zone.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I said yes, but only if he gets total control. I also think the only way that will really happen is if Gibbs is not the HC next year. Not that I think he should fully retire, but would be very happy to see Gibbs move into another role within the organization.

I've also started to wonder whether Saunders will choose to move on to bigger and better. He was so successful when he had control of the reigns in KC, and anyone can imagine how frustrating it's probably been to compromise in offensive stategy (particularly in regard to being "influenced" to call 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 run plays in a row when every guy on the opposing team knows exactly what's coming). I remember the heady day of KC's #1 offense very well and that kind of thing NEVER happened.

Anyway, Saunders may have better opportunities emerge outside D.C. and I think it would leave us in worse shape.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

I'll maintain we need one or two more playmakers for Saunders' schemes to work well. With one more offseason will come greater maturity and knowledge of the offense for Campbell, and much-needed healing for our line and receivers. It may be that the lack of execution this season has been a function of our players grasping the system, but lacking the explosiveness to execute on most plays. Portis will get the grunt yards, Cooley will make a reception to get the O started, and Moss will keep the chains moving every other drive. But who will turn a screen into a 70-yard touchdown? A shovel pass into a 15-yard gain? One of those lob shots deep down the field for an unbelievable, over-the-shoulders catch to set up a red-zone possession? Anyone?

I think if we can find a receiver and/or back with those capabilities, then yes, Saunders will stay to coordinate the O next season. If not, the Skins may "smart up" and play within the limits of their offense, the way Gibbs would run it. Of course, I am in the camp that wants Wash to make the acquisitions necessary to make Saunders' system work.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

SmootSmack: I think you're wrong. Most people saying go for the kill, want us to continue moving the ball as we were. You haven't noticed us doing one thing, getting up, then going back on our haunches? Late in the game, I want to see high percentage pass plays, sometimes even on first or second down. Running 3 times burns some time, but getting a first down or two burns a lot more.

By go for the kill it's the continuation of offense for 60 minutes. Not what happened half the season where we play offense, go to halftime, stop playing offense, try to start playing to win the game.

People that are blaming the defense for losing these games. How many games have we lost where the defense gave up less than 20 points. A lot. To me, scoring defense is the most important stat, and we're doing damn good. We didn't even let Buffalo score a TD, but they still beat us. The defense is on the field a long time, they're tired, and they shouldn't be required to win 3/4ths of the games.

Re: Should Al Saunders return in '08?
 

[QUOTE=Rock31;394855] But who will turn a screen into a 70-yard touchdown? A shovel pass into a 15-yard gain? One of those lob shots deep down the field for an unbelievable, over-the-shoulders catch to set up a red-zone possession? Anyone?[/QUOTE]

Are you being serious? Have you never seen Moss, Portis, Betts, Randle El, Cooley, Caldwell play?