Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Ok so everyone seems to think Moss gave up on that play. And you guys listened to the announcer Chris Collinsworthless give worthless analysis once again. he said that Moss gave up because the DB didnt bit on his post corner route.

This is partially true, Moss stopped running bc the DB didn't "bite", but why did the DB not bite? That is because Todd and Santana were on sync that play. Todd threw the ball out before Santana made his cuts.

So by the time Moss looked up the DB keyed in on the throw not because he knew where the ball was gonna go preroute or something.

Todd made a poor throw way too early in Santana's route. I think this is purely Todd's fault. Those with DVR I urge to go back, mute the sound, and look at the play.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

i did it also didnt help that collins's arm isnt that strong to begin with

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

I really don't know what happened there. Has anyone heard an explanation from a player or coach?

It definitely looked like some sort of miscommunication.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;403342]i did it also didnt help that collins's arm isnt that strong to begin with[/quote]

Exactly, Collins has no significant arm strength. I am glad my other friends who thought Collins should start next year finally shut up after this game.

I guess my whole point was everyone, including TC in postgame interviews,
seemed to blame this on Moss when Collins made a poor throw on so many levels.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=Mattyk72;403351]I really don't know what happened there. Has anyone heard an explanation from a player or coach?

It definitely looked like some sort of miscommunication.[/quote]

Well I dont know about all that but I went back and looked at it carefully. he was running a post corner route(See route B on picture below.)

[IMG]http://www.sportsgamer.com/assets/images/10.01.07.12.39.06.jpg[/IMG]


And Collins is suppose to make the throw right before the second cut. From what I saw he threw it WAY before.

That is why the DB keyed in on the INT, because he saw the ball going one way and Moss going the other.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

That was just an all around bad play. That was a ball Collins never should have thrown. Moss should have completed his route no matter what. Somewhere along the way, one of our 11 guys on the field should have tackled Trufant before he went 78 yards for a touchdown. You can't blame just one guy for that play.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

How do you know which route he was supposed to run?

Anyhow, I think both Moss and Gibbs said Moss lost the ball in the lights. I'd have to see it again though.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=SmootSmack;403356]How do you know which route he was supposed to run?

Anyhow, I think both Moss and Gibbs said Moss lost the ball in the lights. I'd have to see it again though.[/quote]

Well Moss runs deep, cuts in, and stops running. In the meantime the ball goes out and a bit farther.

To me that is a post corner.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Moss had already broke his stride before the ball was even thrown. He didn't think the ball was coming his way. By the time he did see the ball it was too late. But like I said, that play goes against the team and not just one guy.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=hooskins;403352]Exactly, Collins has no significant arm strength. I am glad my other friends who thought Collins should start next year finally shut up after this game.

I guess my whole point was everyone, including TC in postgame interviews,
seemed to blame this on Moss when Collins made a poor throw on so many levels.[/quote]

What post game show were you watching? I didnt hear anyone not once blame Moss. The only thing I heard from Collins, Moss and Randel L was that Moss didnt think the ball was coming his way, he looked and didnt see anything so he fiqured it was a busted play, until he looked over at the defender catching a ball that looked like a punt,(Moss' quote) lol. So I, like everyone in the country thought Moss had for some strange reason just gave up. I guess we could argue the point but I believe what all 3 of them said. It still sucks, but whatcha gonna do....

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;403352]Exactly, Collins has no significant arm strength. I am glad my other friends who thought Collins should start next year finally shut up after this game.

I guess my whole point was everyone, including TC in postgame interviews,
seemed to blame this on Moss when Collins made a poor throw on so many levels.[/QUOTE]

Collins won four and 3/4ths games with no arm strength. It was not the lack of arm strength that cause the interceptions it was the call. Redskins NEVER throw deep, especially when they are ahead. So why ask a weak armed QB to throw deep, against the wind....against the wind...with five minutes left in the game. The short-intermediate passing game worked well for the other TD's. Why did the coaches panic with 5 minutes left and ask Collins to throw 40 yards against the wind? THATS the question that should be answered.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=fortysixdefense;403371]Collins won four and 3/4ths games with no arm strength. It was not the lack of arm strength that cause the interceptions it was the call. Redskins NEVER throw deep, especially when they are ahead. So why ask a weak armed QB to throw deep, against the wind....against the wind...with five minutes left in the game. The short-intermediate passing game worked well for the other TD's. Why did the coaches panic with 5 minutes left and ask Collins to throw 40 yards against the wind? THATS the question that should be answered.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point actually

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

This chat room stuff gets old because its too slow. I want to know if anybody likes to talk live or if there is a live chat room with audio about the SKINS. If not, I am thinking about starting a Redskins weekly conference call line where we could get together on the phone in a chat room environment.

Anyone else interested except me?

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=fortysixdefense;403378]This chat room stuff gets old because its too slow. I want to know if anybody likes to talk live or if there is a live chat room with audio about the SKINS. If not, I am thinking about starting a Redskins weekly conference call line where we could get together on the phone in a chat room environment.

Anyone else interested except me?[/QUOTE]

You don't need to post the same thing in multiple threads

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Why are you guys bashing on Todd Collins... The man started and finished 4-1. He helped us get into the playoffs. No need to bash him because of one game. Obviously, no one is perfect.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;403339]Ok so everyone seems to think Moss gave up on that play. And you guys listened to the announcer Chris Collinsworthless give worthless analysis once again. he said that Moss gave up because the DB didnt bit on his post corner route.

This is partially true, [B]Moss stopped running bc [/B]the DB didn't "bite", but why did the DB not bite? [/QUOTE]
Moss Stopped Running! I don't care what play was called or how bad a throw it was, He gave up on the play! I love Santana, He is on my avatar. But the fact is he clearly didn't complete his route.

In the NFL, If you wait till the WR gets open, You've waited too long. You have to throw to spots.

The playcall:
In my opinion it was a great play call. We had our most explosive offensive weapon with one on one coverage. Collins threw a couple of jump balls up to Santana the previous 4 games and no one complained because santana made the play. In the Vikings game, Collins lobbed a ball to santana, Fortunately Santana came down with it for a TD.

A deep pass to Santana Moss with one on one coverage, No deep safety? I will take that play any day of the week and twice on sundays. More often than not, Santana is going to come down with it or draw a Pass interference penalty.

FYI, After the game, Santana said in an interview that he lost the ball in the lights.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=fortysixdefense;403371]Collins won four and 3/4ths games with no arm strength. It was not the lack of arm strength that cause the interceptions it was the call. Redskins NEVER throw deep, especially when they are ahead. So why ask a weak armed QB to throw deep, against the wind....against the wind...with five minutes left in the game. The short-intermediate passing game worked well for the other TD's. Why did the coaches panic with 5 minutes left and ask Collins to throw 40 yards against the wind? THATS the question that should be answered.[/quote]

Yeah like SS said, good point. First legit problem I have heard with the playcalling.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Collins had shown the ability to hit the deep balls. I liked the aggressive nature of the call.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.

Keep pounding and people say you are too conservative. Take some shots and people say you panicked.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

I thought I heard on Comcast that Moss said he stopped running because when he looked back he couldn't find the ball.

Anyway, I don't blame TC for that interception at all. Like I said in another thread he put it up there and Moss stopped the route for the DB not biting and losing track of the ball, that's all on Moss not TC. If he hadn't of stopped running I think Moss would've had at least a 50/50 chance of catching that pass.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

If I had to place blame, I would go with Moss. He stopped running. he was the primary receiver on that play. you never give up your route, isn't that the first thing you learn as a WR?? Collins put the ball up for him to make a play. that is what you would expect moss to do, he does it all the time. the fact he didn't see the ball I can take, the fact he stopped running i can't. plus the fact he didn't seem to worried about making a tackle also irkes me bit, but I guess the whole offense kinda let that one go.

Look, it was a bad play. To blame one person on that play is crazy. There were multiple things on that play that was not good. Todd had to make the throw early because the line couldn't protect - moss didn't make a play on the ball - no one on offense seemed to be able to catch the DB. I dont think you can blame the staff either. I think they called a relatively good game. Defensively, not sure why we went conservative on the series after the missed FG because we had been playing good pressure D with a cover 1 / man scheme.

we got beat, a game that we had a lead in the 4th quarter. Suprised..not really. we have blown so many games this year in the same situation. I guess no one saw it coming with the 4 or 5 weeks of stellar play.

good season, not great, but we'll fight our guts our next year.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;403339]Ok so everyone seems to think Moss gave up on that play. And you guys listened to the announcer Chris Collinsworthless give worthless analysis once again. he said that Moss gave up because the DB didnt bit on his post corner route.

This is partially true, Moss stopped running bc the DB didn't "bite", but why did the DB not bite? That is because Todd and Santana were on sync that play. Todd threw the ball out before Santana made his cuts.

So by the time Moss looked up the DB keyed in on the throw not because he knew where the ball was gonna go preroute or something.

Todd made a poor throw way too early in Santana's route. I think this is purely Todd's fault. Those with DVR I urge to go back, mute the sound, and look at the play.[/QUOTE]

The major problem I have with Moss on this play is he did not play until the whistle blew. He gave up. Regardless of where you think the ball is or is going, or that Todd made a poor throw, you play until the whistle blows.
If Moss had tried to defend the interception or even committed offensive pass interference and ran over the DB before he caught it, that would have been a better outcome than an interception returned for a TD. Instead Moss decided to give up on the play and start day dreaming, he allowed another DB that [B]was paying attention [/B]to get between him and the guy that ran it in for the TD. Moss had nobody between him and the DB before the DB caught the int., but since Moss had something more important to do than see where the ball was thrown, IMO the TD [B]return[/B] was Moss' fault.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

It looked to me that Santana thought the pass went out of bounds and that is why he held up. He had is back to where the ball was going, but I have a feeling he thought it carried out of bounds.

You will notice the look of surprise by his reaction when he turned around and saw what had really happened.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;403782]It looked to me that Santana thought the pass went out of bounds and that is why he held up. He had is back to where the ball was going, but I have a feeling he thought it carried out of bounds.

You will notice the look of surprise by his reaction when he turned around and saw what had really happened.[/quote]
I have to agree with you on this one. Moss may make mistakes from time to time but him giving up on a play has never been an issue with him.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;403782]It looked to me that Santana thought the pass went out of bounds and that is why he held up. He had is back to where the ball was going, but I have a feeling he thought it carried out of bounds.

You will notice the look of surprise by his reaction when he turned around and saw what had really happened.[/QUOTE]

It does not take much effort to turn your head and look to see of the ball did go out of bounds. I guess he was too busy.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;403782]It looked to me that Santana thought the pass went out of bounds and that is why he held up. He had is back to where the ball was going, but I have a feeling he thought it carried out of bounds.

You will notice the look of surprise by his reaction when he turned around and saw what had really happened.[/QUOTE]
That was what I thought happened. Plus, since the throw was into the wind it may have looked like it was going to sail out of bounds until it just sort of dropped, which seems to happen on a lot of punts.
Actually, isn't that pretty much what happened on the kick that Burleson (sp?) forgot to field?

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

In my personal opinion, I just believe Moss stopped on the play and Collins shouldn't have thrown the pass. In another words, Collins was supposed to have thrown the pass if it looked as if Trufant had bit on Moss's double move. Since he obviously didn't bite on the move, Collins wasn't supposed to have thrown in that direction. But, since Collins did throw the ball, Moss should've turned into a defender and tried his best to knock the ball away from the DB. My question is, if Moss lost the ball in the lights, wouldn't the DB have also lost the ball in the lights? It just looked like to me it was a little bit of Collins and Moss's fault. Like someone else mentioned, it was also the rest of the 11 guys fault by allowing the DB to scamper 78 yards for a TD.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Lots of debate here on who shoulda done whatever when I think the REAL question should be whether or not Moss "gave up" on the play or if he actually "quit".

Oh, and that second INT returned for a TD happened with a Seahawk walking into the end zone with not a white jersey anywhere to be seen other than Collins trying to chase down the play. Was that a "give up" or a "quit"?

Each and every one of the Redskins on the field for those two plays did not earn their game checks.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=hooskins;403354]Well I dont know about all that but I went back and looked at it carefully. he was running a post corner route(See route B on picture below.)

[IMG]http://www.sportsgamer.com/assets/images/10.01.07.12.39.06.jpg[/IMG]


And Collins is suppose to make the throw right before the second cut. From what I saw he threw it WAY before.

That is why the DB keyed in on the INT, because he saw the ball going one way and Moss going the other.[/quote]
If Saunders would've kept Moss's speed burst button down and then hit the catch button we would've been fine !!! J/K :laughing-

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

That play wasn't on either of them 100%. I would say that it is more on Moss than Collins though. I think it was a terrible pass, it should not have been throw. I would say that he shouldn't have thrown that ball 100% of the time. I still don't see what Collins saw to make him put that football up. However, Santana can't stop on that route. There was absolutely no reason for it! Play to the whistle! I was offended that Santana Moss got to keep his jersey after not looking for/locating/fighting for the football on that play. There is no explanation that will satisfy me as to why Moss didn't fight for the ball or at least try to break up the pass.

During the play, before the pick or the return, (and well before Collinsworth's analysis) I was screaming at the TV, "Why the f@#k did you stop?!" I still don't believe there was a valid reason for Santana to stop the route and there is no explanation that I think I can stomach.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=hooskins;403354]Well I dont know about all that but I went back and looked at it carefully. he was running a post corner route(See route B on picture below.)

[IMG]http://www.sportsgamer.com/assets/images/10.01.07.12.39.06.jpg[/IMG]


And Collins is suppose to make the throw right before the second cut. From what I saw he threw it WAY before.

That is why the DB keyed in on the INT, because he saw the ball going one way and Moss going the other.[/quote]
Moss was frustrated, and knew it was over. Maybe he was expressing, "Jason's Team"

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;403339]Ok so everyone seems to think Moss gave up on that play. And you guys listened to the announcer Chris Collinsworthless give worthless analysis once again. he said that Moss gave up because the DB didnt bit on his post corner route.

This is partially true, Moss stopped running bc the DB didn't "bite", but why did the DB not bite? That is because Todd and Santana were on sync that play. Todd threw the ball out before Santana made his cuts.

So by the time Moss looked up the DB keyed in on the throw not because he knew where the ball was gonna go preroute or something.

Todd made a poor throw way too early in Santana's route. I think this is purely Todd's fault. Those with DVR I urge to go back, mute the sound, and look at the play.[/QUOTE]

All of that doesn't excuse him from giving up on making the tackle!

He could have looked at the ball, defender, and once he saw him with the ball he said he "thought the play was blown dead, but didnt hear a whistle."

PS
THEN ITS NOT F*ckin Dead if u dont hear a whistle. He could at the very least made a tackle. I was watching the game and by the time he looked and saw what was good, Moss wasnt even on the camera shot when Trufant headed for the endzone.

I dont buy anything, the man gave up. Pure and simple

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Maybe the new coach will look for a wide receiver after checking the Green Bay and Seattle game film and a player will work on timing with the quarterback in camp not in Florida
We need a hard nosed coach like the giants have
Is he available?


[QUOTE=Campbell17;405320]Moss was frustrated, and knew it was over. Maybe he was expressing, "Jason's Team"[/QUOTE]

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[quote=hooskins;403354]

[IMG]http://www.sportsgamer.com/assets/images/10.01.07.12.39.06.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]

I know Collins threw the post corner route, but I didn't even see Moss start to look for it. I though he was just running a "Go", or a "Seam", route. If he was running the post corner he should have at least looked over his right shoulder... which he never did. I think this was either a terrible throw... or a miscommunication.

There was a graphic in the Washington Post after the game on the play... but I couldn't find it... so here's my rough rendition.

[IMG]http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1782/throwel2.png[/IMG]

The second I saw the play... I yelled at Moss. He lost the ball, so he stopped. I guess in the heat of the moment he didn't realize where it was thrown, but if it was a post corner he should have at least looked for it there. I don't really know what to think of this play now, but when I saw it... I really felt it was Moss' fault.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

Moss was running hard most of the day and was double covered all day. Collins was under heavy pressure and I suspect Moss wasn't expecting the ball to go to him to tell you the truth. I did notice a few times where Moss wasn't running full speed but then again the route and the play might have called for lesser speed. Anywho, unless someone explains what happened there is no point in speculating.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;403339]Todd made a poor throw way too early in Santana's route. I think this is purely Todd's fault. [/QUOTE]

Hrumph. The reason it was a poor throw and was thrown too early was because of the OL guy (Fabinin?) getting over like a rented mule and having his body bulldozed into Collin's throwing motion. You already know Collins can't move, so he couldn't get out of the way, but that's why it was forced a bit too early, and also why the pass looked more like a punt.

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

[QUOTE=GottaBigButt;405482]Hrumph. The reason it was a poor throw and was thrown too early was because of the OL guy (Fabinin?) getting over like a rented mule and having his body bulldozed into Collin's throwing motion. You already know Collins can't move, so he couldn't get out of the way, but that's why it was forced a bit too early, and also why the pass looked more like a punt.[/QUOTE]

Best screen name ever!

I think you're Randy Thomas. You say you gotta big butt, and we all know how Thomas loves to cozy up to the buffet table. Plus, you're calling out Jason Fabini as if to say "If I, Randy Thomas, were playing that wouldn't have happened."

Re: Collins' INT/Moss' "give up"
 

No I'm not Randy Thomas, but my lazy fat ass did stay at a holiday inn express last night.