Madden 2005 initial impressions.
 

:tongue Hey Guy's,
Let me say first that I have owned every version of Madden (Yes I even spent $800 for a 3DO), and just about every other version of football games out there, and until this year there hasn't been a better football video game made, until this year. ESPN 2K5 in my opinion blows Madden away in almost every area. I thought I would never say that, but it is true. The graphics on ESPN 2K5 are way ahead of Madden's this year, the game play is better and the player animations are much more realistic. I am so disappointed in EA for this version. There has been many articles on how they redesigned the player models for this year's version and in my opinion they took a step backward. I just hope that the designers realize that they fell behind ESPN and push harder to put out a better version next season. What do you guy's think?

this will probably get moved to the gaming forum, but i haven't played the new madden yet (although i've been playing madden since genesis). once i played espn's (formerly sega's) 2K series, i've been hooked... gameplay is much better for my style of video game play. madden may have the market for extra features (dynasties, custom teams, etc), but i just seem to have more fun playing espn's.

I went from Madden to the 2k series but now I am switching back to Madden, only because everybody I know has Madden. I 've tried for a few years to convince them to make the switch but it wasn't happening. I'm sure once I get the hang of madden again I'll love it. but I always liked 2k

ESPN is ok. But I still want Madden!!!! :)

Madden all the way for me.

I just got it tonight, I'm simming the first season to get to the offseason stuff. So far I've spent about an hour just doing training camp stuff and getting familiar with all the new stuff. Haven't actually played a game yet! LOL

yeah Summo, going from 2 weeks with ESPN's 100s of super-nice animations to Madden's 5 year old ones (what are there 50?) and the 8 new ones this year is way too hard to come back to. and you're right about the players, look at their textured arms compared to ESPN's normal-mapped ones (3D textures), its a step back from last year when the lighting came from the environment, not drawn on. its too bad too, cuz the field and stadiums were really improved in this year's Madden.

the one thing that keeps me from going totally Sega Fanboy is the 'rotate and run' thing the ESPN players do on small radius turns. totally defeats the purpose of the love and care that went into all 100s of dope animations they did. love the cuts and twists on drastic moves tho. for small turns they need to lean into it like in Madden. else i think ESPN has it beat.

all the defensive hot routes/audibles Madden highlights so hard this year are in ESPN (love the on-the-fly audible setting and player swapping at the playcall screen). but playing and seeing the game in action is what does it for me. just seeing the running back take a handoff bump into his guys, squeeze between, stutter...so much more dynamic. and the tackles. lord the tackles. thats real physics. if only they didnt rotate on small turns!!!!

too bad about the franchise/draft/etc. options everyone wants too. to me its about the game on the screen and in my hands.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Madden all the way for me.

I just got it tonight, I'm simming the first season to get to the offseason stuff. So far I've spent about an hour just doing training camp stuff and getting familiar with all the new stuff. Haven't actually played a game yet! LOL[/QUOTE]

Matty, have you played this years ESPN yet? play on Slow and watch some replays of what you just did, and then watch and wonder at the realtime tackles. you'll be in awe. i been playing Madden since John Madden Football on the genesis, but Sega's been trying harder than EA for years now.

I only have one problem with ESPN NFL 2k5...it's not on PC.

No I haven't played espn and I don't plan to. I gave 2k4 a shot and I just didn't like it.

I dont get any of anyones reasoning behind likeing the espn game better. The presentation is superior to madden... AKA the part of teh game taht has nothign to do with playing, or a franchise... The animations were cool for about ten minute when I played the espn game. ESPN took so much time in trying to make an animation look real, that they fucked up the way players actually move. When you cut in espn the guy goes straight left, then straight up. most of the time when you have a fast player you get run down by a linemen becuase of the way the animations are. OK, so if you watch the instant replay it looks cool, who cares, in actual gameplay it takes away from the experience.

Everyone here seems to be aruging about the animations for some reason and not taking into account any of the other factors. you look at the game as if all that matters is when you play one game. Off season mode is elementary compared to madden..

Next year id be willing to bet that madden adds in a bunch of stupid presentation just to shut up the critics. That way, all the players that dont care about gameplay and just want the pregame show to be pretty will be happy.

ESPN uses a better rendering system and has more detail in their graphics, but those graphics during gameplay are less representative to acutaly players motion then in madden.

There should be a seperate thread for this argument. one for people that only play one of the games and are hugely biased, and another thread for those people that own both games and have played both of them through atleast one season and know the differences. Its just getting annoying having the same arguments with people that having even played both games. My final opinion is that ESPN is pretty to watch, but is inferior to madden as a complete game.

no one in this thread even mentioned the presentation stuff (which is obviously first rate). its all bonus to me. the *great* animations on the FIELD make the players come alive, before, during and after the play. the rotating thing is a definite weakness, but it has been worked on alot, big changes in direction are greeted with fantastic realistic timing and animations, not the quick afterthought Madden semi-cut tried this year (i have and played both)

the tackles are 100% dead-on PERFECT. they start off as the usual great ESPN animation but like the real NFL, at anytime any number of tacklers can join in! you're riding Jamal Lewis in a slow wrap up animation with a cornerback while he's driving you towards the 1st down line. suddenly two LBs finally get there, WRAP themselves around Lewis AND you, and drive the pile backward! the guy underneath twists arounds his legs while the LBs have him from the top, NO ONE LETS GO till they're all on the ground and everyone spins off each other and anyone caught underneath them. this happens EVERY play and really adds to the football gameplay. you AIM the second contact the way you want the pile to go, and then see it executed perfectly in realtime (not a mocapped script), individual weights and momentum (read: real Physics) with everyone actually GRABBING something. no player clipping, generic tackle anims or bounce offs. light years ahead of the generic scripted Madden tackles.

this kind of attention to detail is in EVERYTHING on the field. the line of schrimmage has amazing animations/feel when you're being held up but still bullrushing trying to get around a Olineman, you can get to the QB with the OLineman still hanging off you! the swats, cornerback bump battles, jump catches, spin catches, over the head catches, low catches, scrambling for fumbles (especially great) kill Madden's in quantity and realism. these all happen during the gameplay and you'll drop your jaw to see how smoothly they flow from one another, ESPN makes you think it was all one long enormous mocap session for just that one play. they spent the same amount of time on animations before and after the play too, like when they call timeout from the ground after a hit, drop an easy pass, get a first down, make a great play. great great great stuff.

yeah the franchise/drafting stuff may not be up to Madden's standards, but thats extra to me too (i know its not for many).

to me, its all about the actual gameplay and how 'football' the GAME feels, and hell yeah ESPN is a whoooole lot prettier. its just as much a chess game as Madden is this year too with all the audibles, defensive hot routes, player matchups, player swapping, and individual def. assignments. more importantly, aside from the lack of leaning into runs, the MECHANICS like tackling, touch passing over defenders, defending passes, cutting then squeezing through holes, PUSHING lead olineman on a run, all feels (and looks) ALOT realer than Madden's 5 year old engine can handle. no matter how they keep trying to add make up on it.

i agree, take a serious look at both the latest installments before you comment

Why does there always have to be a bitch battle between people over these two games?? LOL

I'm not talking about people here necessarily, I see this kinda stuff all over.

I'll never understand it. There's plenty of room for both games. Both games are great in their own right. If you like one over the other that's great. Seems like people are always trying to convince others that one is better than the other, but when you look around at gaming sites and magazines, the reviews are usually neck and neck.

So basically it's a toss up. Why can't we all just play the game you like and be happy. :)

there isnt 'room' when people just buy Madden blindly cuz of the name, and wont support or even LOOK at the underdogs, no matter how improved, highly rated or reviewed. then they talk about how awesome the one game they have and played is, on 'discussion' boards like this.

Fever's gone (r.i.p. Read n' Lead, a true innovation, as are the best player faces in videogame football), and ESPN is super undervalued at $20, what happens next year? ESPN gets cancelled too and Madden adds player moustaches and new GroundsKeeper Mode. and we gotta pay $50 to play our updated teams on a 6 year old engine.

any other games that add so little every year are called EXPANSION PACKS and don't cost $50. EA has been getting over on its customers for years.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]I dont get any of anyones reasoning behind likeing the espn game better. The presentation is superior to madden... AKA the part of teh game taht has nothign to do with playing, or a franchise... The animations were cool for about ten minute when I played the espn game. ESPN took so much time in trying to make an animation look real, that they fucked up the way players actually move. When you cut in espn the guy goes straight left, then straight up. most of the time when you have a fast player you get run down by a linemen becuase of the way the animations are. OK, so if you watch the instant replay it looks cool, who cares, in actual gameplay it takes away from the experience.

Everyone here seems to be aruging about the animations for some reason and not taking into account any of the other factors. you look at the game as if all that matters is when you play one game. Off season mode is elementary compared to madden..

Next year id be willing to bet that madden adds in a bunch of stupid presentation just to shut up the critics. That way, all the players that dont care about gameplay and just want the pregame show to be pretty will be happy.

ESPN uses a better rendering system and has more detail in their graphics, but those graphics during gameplay are less representative to acutaly players motion then in madden.

There should be a seperate thread for this argument. one for people that only play one of the games and are hugely biased, and another thread for those people that own both games and have played both of them through atleast one season and know the differences. Its just getting annoying having the same arguments with people that having even played both games. My final opinion is that ESPN is pretty to watch, but is inferior to madden as a complete game.[/QUOTE]

I AGREE! I just got Madden last night, and it's 100 times better then 2k5.

I have tried the 2K series several times in the past and for me I just prefer Madden.

I'm sorry if that annoys some people, but as long as Madden is a quality product, (which it definitely is no matter what some sega fanboys may say), I see no reason to buy another game.

It's not like Madden receives horrible reviews while 2K receives glowing reviews. They are both very highly regarded. I can see your point Ill if Madden was clearly on the decline and people were still buying it, then they would definitely be buying it on the name alone. But that's simply not the case.

I have to agree with skinsncanes on this one! I bought 2k5, took it home and I initially didn't like it b/c I wasn't used to it. The controls, gameplay etc. But, once I got used to all of that, ..... it sucked even worse. The gameplay is absolutely atrocious!!! And that's all that matters! Anybody who disagrees and thinks ESPN 2k5 is the bomb can keep your swapmeet game and argue your point(s) until you're blue in the face. Just because you're an elitist doesn't make your game better.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]There should be a seperate thread for this argument. one for people that only play one of the games and are hugely biased, and another thread for those people that own both games and have played both of them through atleast one season and know the differences. Its just getting annoying having the same arguments with people that having even played both games. My final opinion is that ESPN is pretty to watch, but is inferior to madden as a complete game.[/QUOTE]

didn't u say that u stopped playing espn around week 7 or so? ;)

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I have tried the 2K series several times in the past and for me I just prefer Madden.

I'm sorry if that annoys some people, but as long as Madden is a quality product, (which it definitely is no matter what some sega fanboys may say), I see no reason to buy another game.

It's not like Madden receives horrible reviews while 2K receives glowing reviews. They are both very highly regarded. I can see your point Ill if Madden was clearly on the decline and people were still buying it, then they would definitely be buying it on the name alone. But that's simply not the case.[/QUOTE]

I know I'm arguing so strongly for epsn 2k5 cuz in my mind its a very solid football game and I'm trying to help save fellow skins fans some money, lol.
Yes all the franchise stuff is nice in madden but for those who enjoy an actual game of football, I highly recommend ESPN 2k5. Neither game is perfect but with each being roughly the same game and with each having the edge in various categories, u really can't go wrong with spending $20 bucks for an incredibly gorgeous game. If u go for the madden then have at it cuz its almost assured that its going to be a very solid title every year, like I said I'm just trying to help open some eyes and help some pocketbooks, lol.

[QUOTE=illdefined]any other games that add so little every year are called EXPANSION PACKS and don't cost $50. EA has been getting over on its customers for years.[/QUOTE]
it's too bad they won't just have each year be an expansion-like upgrade cuz almost every sports title is just a slightly retooled and enhanced copy of last year's game with new rosters.

oh and my suggestion of buying espn 2k5 is mainly for x-box owners cuz I honestly haven't seen the gameplay of the ps2 version and can't give a fair grade of it.

if 2k5 was on pc i'd try it out, but until then....

I got Madden CE for only $20 after trade-ins

:thumb:

Madden vs ESPN is like a Coke vs Pepsi or Bush vs Kerry. Everyone likes their choice and no amount of talking is going to sway any views.

worth a rent of the latest installments no?

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]didn't u say that u stopped playing espn around week 7 or so? ;)



I know I'm arguing so strongly for epsn 2k5 cuz in my mind its a very solid football game and I'm trying to help save fellow skins fans some money, lol.
Yes all the franchise stuff is nice in madden but for those who enjoy an actual game of football, I highly recommend ESPN 2k5. Neither game is perfect but with each being roughly the same game and with each having the edge in various categories, u really can't go wrong with spending $20 bucks for an incredibly gorgeous game. If u go for the madden then have at it cuz its almost assured that its going to be a very solid title every year, like I said I'm just trying to help open some eyes and help some pocketbooks, lol.


it's too bad they won't just have each year be an expansion-like upgrade cuz almost every sports title is just a slightly retooled and enhanced copy of last year's game with new rosters.

oh and my suggestion of buying espn 2k5 is mainly for x-box owners cuz I honestly haven't seen the gameplay of the ps2 version and can't give a fair grade of it.[/QUOTE]

yea i only played half the season, but before that I ran through two simualted seasons to check out the draft and progression and stuff.

The progressions, from what I saw in two years of espn, were not that good. And the stats wernt acurate either. Portis made the probowl with like 800 yards rushing, I think one back had more than 1000. I set the game time to 3 min qtrs and what I think espn does is assume the computer plays wiht 3 min qtrs to.. This is cool that you can play a shorter qtr and not be behind in all the stats, but they failed to coreleate that to progression. They didnt take that into account, and almost everyone in the league dropped. Its these sort of things that madden has ironed out over the years. In madden this year old players have just as much value as younger players. Theres actually a reson to use guys over 30 in madden this year.

I dont want you guys to think im trying to start fights, heh, I own both games and spend a great deal of time playing them so there are a lot of little things that I have come to notice about these games that makes me pick madden. if you have fun with espn then by all means have a blast, and drink some beers.

its obvious people really get off on their franchises, stats and progression. yeah sounds like Madden really is clearly better for that apparently. although have you guys seen this Weekly Prep thing in ESPN? its totally nuts, every DAY of the week between games you choose each player's excerise regimen, diet and rehabilitation, then it increases/decreases their stats accordingly. say you want Rasby to slim down and get faster, or Portis to gain some muscle for those Gut runs. the idea is pretty cool..

personally, all this number stuff isn't for me though. when i get a football game, i only play the actual current roster and season (or at least keep the same players). i don't wanna RUN the 'Skins (the only team i'll ever play), i wanna BE the 'Skins, and i pick the game that does the most convincing job of that visually and mechanically. on the FIELD.

it's funny. when playing Madden or ESPN, people make me aware that i'm not such a fan of football, as i am a fan of the REDSKINS. don't get me wrong, i'm all about the Xs and Os, but only in relation to the CURRENT Skins and how much i need them to win. i won't play another team! not even a historic 'Skin team!

madden 2k5 has a much better skins team, as in espn made the 2k5 skins kinda sucky in comparision.

[QUOTE=That Guy]madden 2k5 has a much better skins team, as in espn made the 2k5 skins kinda sucky in comparision.[/QUOTE]

that is TRUE. it's only made it more challenging for me though! i've had to become a custom audibling(def. and off.), individual assignment, man-in-motion master! i was totally frustrated before, but it was a blessing in disguise. 16-0 on All-Pro! time to bump it up...

hopefully as the season progresses the live roster updates will change to reflect Gibbs's presence like Madden did (Rock Cartwright 86??)

I bought both games the day they became available in stores, and here's my initial impressions of both, with the caveat that I'm not here to get in a pissing contest about how many hours I spend playing either game:

I was initially a little uncomfortable with ESPN's controls, which is to be expected, as the only football game I've ever played aside from Tecmo Bowl (still the greatest football game ever made-- even after an all-night kegger, you can still rush for over 400 yards on your buddy!) is the Madden series. But after a few games, the controls became second nature, just like with Madden.

IMHO, the graphics and presentation of ESPN are more realistic, though the color saturation is a little extreme. I hate the way players run (read: "waddle") in ESPN, but everything else about the player animations is so cool that I began to overlook the ridiculous running form after a while.

I was very impressed with ESPN's attention to detail with the stadiums-- "Washington Redskins Stadium" really looks like FedEx Field, not a drab burgundy-and-gold amalgamation of some programming teams' collective impressions of what a generic Redskins stadium should look like.

I was also very happy to see that ESPN made a concerted effort to produce a Redskins playbook that resembles what Gibbs will probably be using this season. Madden pissed me off big-time in this category when I found the same damned playbook in 2005 that they proffered last year as Steve Spurrier's brainchild. The only noticeable difference is the new option routes for the receivers. There are no true "counter-treys" in Madden's Gibbs playbook, and few counter plays in general, whereas the ESPN Gibbs playbook is loaded with them.

One problem with both games: there is no true H-back spot on the depth chart, and Rock Cartwright is presented as a fullback. The thing that sucks about that on ESPN's game is that you can't replace Rock on the depth chart with one of the guys that will actually line up at the H-back spot, like Kozlowski, Sellers or Cooley. Nor can you change Rock to a runningback, which is where he belongs. At least in Madden, you can move Rock to runningback on the depth chart and put him in that rotation, while inserting Koz, Cooley and Sellers into both the fullback (H-back) and tight end rotations.

I really feel like Madden took a step back (or no step at all) with the overall impression of the graphics, player movement and game presentation. The player's bodies look bloated and 'roided up, making them look rather comically cartoonish. ESPN's players look much more true-to-life, aside from the facemasks, which look kind of goofy for some reason. I also noticed Madden 2005 seems to get a little choppy on me, especially when there's a replay going, or when there's just a lot happening on-screen. Last year's Madden was much better in this area, in my opinion. The overall presentation and gameplay of Madden 2004 was much more fluid, seamless and dynamic... kind of like ESPN 2k5.

These are just my impressions of the realism of the gameplay and presentation so far. I haven't done any franchise work with either of them yet, though I'm an avid franchiser, so I'll be moving onto that shortly. Thus far, I'm pretty pissed off about Madden 2005 essentially being a roster update, though I'm hoping the franchise stuff will boost my spirits about spending $50 for said update. ESPN 2k5 has been a very pleasant surprise to this point, and it's very close to being the best $20 I've ever spent (there's a lot you can do as a young guy with $20-- but that's for another forum!). If I don't find anything particularly compelling about Madden 2005's franchise mode, ESPN may have successfully converted me. Madden will have to step up their game big-time next year if they want me to keep paying a premium for their product.

Cartwright is way overrated for some reason, I don't quite understand that either.

In my second season he's up to a 92 and he made the pro bowl in season one as a FB.

JoeC, in total and complete agreement with all your points.

the players in ESPN look like athletes, Madden players still look dumpy, how can you tell? imagine the Madden player withOUT pads, he'd look like a mutant T. especially the skinny guys. i know it must be a rigging issue (sorry, game dev speak)

if Sega could only get rid of that waddle! they go so crazy with the insane animations and animation transitions, only to get the waddle in between.

yeah and i mentioned the saturation problem in another post, helps to turn it down a bit on the TV itself heh.

yea rock is ranked really high.

Chris cooley starts low, but moves up really fast from what I saw in simulation. Im playing my last preseason game now, we'll see waht he goes up. Hes leading my team in receptions, hes got GREAT catchign for a TE, expecially a third round rookie.

I'm not a huge fan of this years' player models in Madden either, guys are a little too bulked up. Some guys look on target like Arrington, but then someone like Coles is a little too pumped up. I do like the increased definition on the jerseys and the helmets look incredible.

As for the playbook I'm also disappointed they didn't tweak it more to Gibbs' style. I was expecting more 'big' sets and more double TE stuff. It's basically last year's playbook with a few minor changes. And a shotgun? C'mon now, maybe they know something we don't but Gibbs didn't run the shotgun the first time around. He tried it out briefly but quickly scrapped it. Even though I wished they had a more Gibbs-like playbook, on the other hand this is the playbook I'm comfortable with so I can't complain too much.

All in all I'm happy with '05, I don't see it as just a roster update. The gameplay has stayed about the same, but then again there wasn't anything terribly wrong with it from '04. They've just added more options especially defensively. I've seen a ton of new tackle animations so far and I really like the hit stick though it's still taking some getting used to.

The storyline has definitely helped to add a new dimension to the offseason. And I really like how they brought in player morale. Guys get upset if they're sitting on the bench or not getting enough touches. And you can no longer just re-sign everyone based on money alone. The newspaper feature is also a nice addition, even though the articles quickly become repetitive, it still gives you a nice weekly overview of what's going on around the league.

I wasn't paying much attention to the radio show until one week I heard Tony Bruno talking about what a great game Michael Vick had last week, throwing for 4 TD's. So I went and checked out Vick's stats and sure enough he did throw 4 TD's. I can live without the radio show, but along with the newspaper it does help add to the overall storyline experience.

Maybe next year they'll take the time to add gibbs' playbook and new positions for him heh...

and add at least 500 more animations

The playbook is actually really big. At first glance it seems to be almost the same as last years, but with a shotgun formation. But its not, there are a ton more big sets. When you are picking a formation, and you hit right to change it up, to add a TE or a receiver to the set, there are a lot more of those last year then in spurriers. Most of the plays i have been calling were two TE sets, because Cooley is a heck of a receiving TE, and Kowolski(sp) is a great blocking TE.

yeh, i've been using the i formation double tight end set. koz and cooley on the right hand side with the counter option, halfback gut, or playaction. i beat two friends over the weekend with those three plays alone. average margin of victory 35 points.

I will say that I don't understand why EA charges 50 (60 for the Collector's Edition) and ESPN only costs 20? I know it's a bitch to get folks to switch from EA but that just goes to show how much markup there is in Videogames. BTW, anybody else spring for the collector's edition?

Even at $50 videogames are a great entertainment value when you factor in the # of hours you'll play it. Especially with sports games that have a high replay factor.

The simple answer is marketshare. Before this year ESPN wasn't even a blip on the radar screen. Madden had a huge percentage of the market... so much so that all the other companies decided to stop competing with EA. All of a sudden, ESPN comes out with a great game with a more than reasonable price tag. They don't mind taking a loss for a year because they have Disney's capital behind them. Hear the wind coming out of EA's sails?

Madden '05 set sales records for the series, so I guess the wind isn't coming out of the sails too quickly.

I wonder if 2k will stick with the $19.99 price tag in the future?

i wonder if Madden will finally upgrade their game enough to warrant another $49.99 next year.

madden 2005 is the best sports game ive ever played. the radio show is cool, the newspapers are awesome, reminds me of ncaa football, the gameplay is awesome with the hit stick, what is the problem? it is more realistic than 2004. great game