# 21 draft pick
 

Its clear to me after last nights monster defensive battle that Defense wins SuperBowls. Brady was abused all night by Tuck, Strahan, and Co.

#1 scoring offense got bitch slapped by NFC East football.

We need to draft a Defensive End to replace Daniels. He's over the hill and should not start in 08'.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

Well, after watching NYG d-line; I have to say I'm tempting to say same thing but a good DE can be plucked out from 2nd or 3rd rd too.. Or even lower.. I wonder what number Justin Tuck was.. To tell you truth, I doubt we would draft a DE at 1st rd.. If we are going to draft a defense player - it will be a corner.. I read an article about Blache's philosophy, and he said that he wants good CBs so he can do whenever he wants.. So..

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

One thing that's getting overlooked about this Super Bowl win by the Giants is how badly they shut down Maroney. That D line doesn't just rush the passer, they stuff the run on the edges.

That is Daniels' strength.

I do agree that we need a better rush off the edge in 2008, especially since Blache is not as likely to blitz as often as GW did. But we must not forget that any replacement for Daniels needs to play the run equally well, while also representing an upgrade as a pass rusher.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

guy's don't forget our secondary needs some help also, I heard Rogers might not be ready next year

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

Good point Schneed.

And good point Grid. Strahan and Osi were 2nd round picks, Tuck 3rd

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

You're probably going to get jumped on for this Q...

We've probably got a couple of open threads already about this. Try using your USER CP - SEARCH tool and type in draft or something like that. Anyways, I'm not going to hate...

There's been a great deal of talk around here about drafting a DE, and you can't help but see how much disrupting an offenses' timing is important to winning football games. The Giants D-Line was epic last night, and I would be a liar if I said, "Draft a stud defensive end!!!!", didn't echo inside my head all night last night.

I can say that if there is a stud DE out there @ 21... I'd pull the trigger. Aside from that... I'm a particular believer in the philosophy that you need to establish both lines to be a dominant team. Whether it means drafting the best DT, DE, or OL available... It has to be the line.

Given our record in turning late round lineman into starting material, maybe our best bet in the long run would be to trade some players away for draft picks if that option is available.

Lot's to discuss. I'm excited.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

We gotta draft D Line, O Line and corners. A big reciever would be nice too...(Ocho Cinco?)

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

When you get right down to it - outside of QB, RB and TE, we have "needs" all over the field. At 21, we take the best player available outside the above named positions. If a stud at one of those positions falls - try like hell to trade down. If that fails, stick with the best player outside of those positions.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

thread starter has a point, but when u look closer the 3 DE's of the giants (tuck, strahan, umenyora) none were first round picks, 2 were 2nd 1 was 3rd. their 1st round DE kiwanuka isnt at their level at all imo. lets pick up a de in round 2 or 3 and go cb first

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;417435]Good point Schneed.

And good point Grid. Strahan and Osi were 2nd round picks, Tuck 3rd[/QUOTE]

Any position has hidden gems in late rounds. You take best available defensive lineman at # 21 how do you go wrong?

We still have Smoot and Springs with Landry and the best white safety since Edwards is looking pretty good back there. Rogers should be back as well.

I do think we need a CB on the first day but pass rush helps out so much and adding onto Carter's sucess is key this offseason.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=Big C;417445]thread starter has a point, but when u look closer the 3 DE's of the giants (tuck, strahan, umenyora) none were first round picks, 2 were 2nd 1 was 3rd. their 1st round DE kiwanuka isnt at their level at all imo. lets pick up a de in round 2 or 3 and go cb first[/QUOTE]

So pass up a great 1st rounder b/c Giants starters were found late? Ok that's not logical.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

I agree with the general ideas posted in this thread. We need to draft a DE whether it is in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round. It is a MUST. I know Blache likes good corners, but with Rogers healthy we have a pretty legit CB corps, and any QB can complete passes to any WR against any CB given enough time. WE NEED A PASS RUSH!

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;417444]When you get right down to it - outside of QB, RB and TE, we have "needs" all over the field. At 21, we take the best player available outside the above named positions. If a stud at one of those positions falls - try like hell to trade down. If that fails, stick with the best player outside of those positions.[/quote]

actually Joe, we've needed a young backup qb for a few years & if Collins leaves & we cut Brunell (a good possibility) we'll really need a qb. I think it'd be worth a 4th round pick or lower to develop long term & sign a vet as the #2.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=WillH;417454]I agree with the general ideas posted in this thread. We need to draft a DE whether it is in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round. It is a MUST. I know Blache likes good corners, but with Rogers healthy we have a pretty legit CB corps, and any QB can complete passes to any WR against any CB given enough time. WE NEED A PASS RUSH![/quote]
What about w/out Rogers in '08 (which is likely the case)? Especially considering Springs may not be around in '09.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=QBall;417453]So pass up a great 1st rounder b/c Giants starters were found late? Ok that's not logical.[/QUOTE]

not exactly the point, the point is to get a good de u dont need to burn a 1st rounder necessarily, which is the model the giants have taken more often than not. get that elite or top end cb, daniels is serviceable still. get that pass rushing specialist and mould him into a complete player.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=RobH4413;417459]What about w/out Rogers in '08 (which is likely the case)? Especially considering Springs may not be around in '09.[/QUOTE]

We may be in the market for a Free Agent CB then. We don't really want to have Rogers out with injury, Springs not around, and throw and rookie into the fire.

If Springs won't talk we cut him and enter Free Agent Market for top CB. Its my opinion that a DE can come right in and start with less trouble than a secondary player, typically.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=Big C;417462]not exactly the point, the point is to get a good de u dont need to burn a 1st rounder necessarily, which is the model the giants have taken more often than not. get that elite or top end cb, daniels is serviceable still. get that pass rushing specialist and mould him into a complete player.[/QUOTE]

how is it burning him if he's the best in the draft and no telling who's around later? Just b/c the Giants did it means nothing really. Look at Brady. Should be go after QB's in the 2nd day? Daniels isn't elite and not sure if he ever was. We picked him up expecting alot more production not just for comments to the Post and Leadership in the locker room.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=RobH4413;417459]What about w/out Rogers in '08 (which is likely the case)? Especially considering Springs may not be around in '09.[/quote]

Certainly we need to replace Rogers for this season, but I think that the better option would be to pickup a vet for this season. Next year when Springs is gone Id be content with Rogers and Smoot as our starters, and a day one draft pick (from next years draft obviously) developing behind them.

Either way I stand behind my statement that it doesn't really matter how good your corners are if you can get pressure on the QB.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

If you guys talked about it before I missed it, but isnt it kinda of wierd that it worked out we got the 21st pick. I mean ST keeps reminding us how much he's gonna be missed.


I say you go to address the o or d line, unless theres a stud cornor avialable. A real good free agent o lineman or cornor just cost to much, imo

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

I hat e to say it but what about the Pac Man?[INDENT][quote=QBall;417463]We may be in the market for a Free Agent CB then. We don't really want to have Rogers out with injury, Springs not around, and throw and rookie into the fire.

If Springs won't talk we cut him and enter Free Agent Market for top CB. Its my opinion that a DE can come right in and start with less trouble than a secondary player, typically.[/quote]

[/INDENT]

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;417456]actually Joe, we've needed a young backup qb for a few years & if Collins leaves & we cut Brunell (a good possibility) we'll really need a qb. I think it'd be worth a 4th round pick or lower to develop long term & sign a vet as the #2.[/QUOTE]

I agree. But I thought we were talking about what to do with our 1st round pick.

If a stud qb falls to us (not sure who that would be at this point), say this year's Aaron Rodgers - would you want to spend our first rounder on a young back-up qb?

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=QBall;417464]how is it burning him if he's the best in the draft and no telling who's around later? Just b/c the Giants did it means nothing really. Look at Brady. Should be go after QB's in the 2nd day? Daniels isn't elite and not sure if he ever was. We picked him up expecting alot more production not just for comments to the Post and Leadership in the locker room.[/QUOTE]

Daniels isn't flashy but then he didn't get a flashy contract either. Not sure where you get the "we picked him expecting a log more production" line. He has been a good signing for good value. I for one never expected him to do more than be a plugger. That he has done and done well.

Yes we need a stud DE but that doesn't mean we have to trash Daniels. He's a solid, unspectacular end. Lots of teams would take his production over the last three years.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=RobH4413;417438]You're probably going to get jumped on for this Q...

We've probably got a couple of open threads already about this. Try using your USER CP - SEARCH tool and type in draft or something like that. Anyways, I'm not going to hate...

There's been a great deal of talk around here about drafting a DE, and you can't help but see how much disrupting an offenses' timing is important to winning football games. [B]The Giants D-Line was epic last night, and I would be a liar if I said, "Draft a stud defensive end!!!!", didn't echo inside my head all night last night[/B].

I can say that if there is a stud DE out there @ 21... I'd pull the trigger. Aside from that... I'm a particular believer in the philosophy that you need to establish both lines to be a dominant team. Whether it means drafting the best DT, DE, or OL available... It has to be the line.

Given our record in turning late round lineman into starting material, maybe our best bet in the long run would be to trade some players away for draft picks if that option is available.

Lot's to discuss. I'm excited.[/quote]

You make a good point; we shouldn't get too caught up in wanting a DE at the expense of other linemen, especially with the 21st pick in the draft. It is important to note that wanting to draft a stud d-end did not just pop into your head last night, and it did not just pop into the head of every Redskin fan who has been furiously discussing it throughout the day, it in fact popped into the head of every fan of every team that watched the Super Bowl last night. It was one of those instances in which a team's success made everyone suddenly "discover" an old concept as though it was new again. I think it is fair to say that after this Super Bowl, defensive linemen might very well be the most overvalued stock in this year's draft.

I still want one though.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=WillH;417465]Certainly we need to replace Rogers for this season, but I think that the better option would be to pickup a vet for this season. Next year when Springs is gone Id be content with Rogers and Smoot as our starters, and a day one draft pick (from next years draft obviously) developing behind them.

[B]Either way I stand behind my statement that it doesn't really matter how good your corners are if you can get pressure on the QB[/B].[/quote]

Absolutely. In fact, a great d-line does more for an average secondary than a great secondary does for an average d-line. The difference is that, while both can shut down the passing game, the d-line causes turnovers. The Skins' failure to realize this has been a reason that our defense has been overrated during Williams' reign. Consider the following:

Year / Overall Defensive Rank / League Takeaway Ranking

2007 / 8th / 25th

2005 / 11th / 23rd

2004 / 3rd / 22nd


Not once in the past 4 years have the Redskins finished in the top 20th in the league in takeaways, and in fact in 2006 set the all-time record for fewest takeaways in a 16 game season. I'm glad Philip Daniels can stop the run, but I'd rather he cause a fumble or an errant pass once a blue moon.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=redduke44;417510]I hat e to say it but what about the Pac Man?
[/QUOTE]

That would be a huge risk and not worth it IMO. DE seems to be well stocked this draft, if a top notch guy is available at 21 I would think the Skins would go for it, but if not they could wait till the second or third and still pick up a quality DE.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

Q Ball -- Want something logical? Go through the 1st round picks for the last X years, and tell me how many of the DEs have become real players? As you go through, you'll find very few have. DTs have done a bit better, but defensive line ends up being one of the highest bust positions in the draft.

The important thing about the draft, is there are some positions you absolutely don't need (For us RB, QB [high at least], TE, are positions we can ignore -- other than that go for the best available player.

As far as defense winning championships, I'm not sold on that. It requires a balance. Also, it's not like the NYG defense was heads and shoulders above the Patriots. The top 7 D's were: Dallas, Steelers, TB, NYG, Pack, Skins, Pats.

Defense is important to championships, no doubt. But lets look back a few years at the winners. NYG (nice balance, their offense put up a LOT of points this season), Colts (huge offense over a big defense bears team), Pittsburgh Steelers (great running team, but a defensive and balanced team), Pats (Offense big here, but balanced team again), Pats again (same deal), Bucs (defense over offense in this one, but the Center missing was huge imo), Pats (see above), Baltimore (Absolutely no offense), Rams (offense).

As you can see, most teams especially lately have been balanced. But only two teams, Bucs and TB have pulled it out on defense alone.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

Would Howie Long's son still be around at #21? I doubt it but I wouldn't mind snagging him if he fell into our laps. I would say hold off on using the pick for a receiver. Who knows, maybe Brandon Lloyd will reappear within the west coast offense? Didn't he flourish under that system in the past?

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;417559]Q Ball -- Want something logical? Go through the 1st round picks for the last X years, and tell me how many of the DEs have become real players? As you go through, you'll find very few have. DTs have done a bit better, but defensive line ends up being one of the highest bust positions in the draft.

The important thing about the draft, is there are some positions you absolutely don't need (For us RB, QB [high at least], TE, are positions we can ignore -- other than that go for the best available player.

As far as defense winning championships, I'm not sold on that. It requires a balance. Also, it's not like the NYG defense was heads and shoulders above the Patriots. The top 7 D's were: Dallas, Steelers, TB, NYG, Pack, Skins, Pats.

Defense is important to championships, no doubt. But lets look back a few years at the winners. NYG (nice balance, their offense put up a LOT of points this season), Colts (huge offense over a big defense bears team), Pittsburgh Steelers (great running team, but a defensive and balanced team), Pats (Offense big here, but balanced team again), Pats again (same deal), Bucs (defense over offense in this one, but the Center missing was huge imo), Pats (see above), Baltimore (Absolutely no offense), Rams (offense).

As you can see, most teams especially lately have been balanced. But only two teams, Bucs and TB have pulled it out on defense alone.[/QUOTE]


Nice post. Don't know if history in draft is apples to apples for this year. I know there are some nice looking players like:

15 Derrick Harvey Jr. Florida Defensive End 6-4 255
5 Chris Long Sr. Virginia Defensive End 6-4 280
2 Glen Dorsey Sr. LSU Defensive Tackle 6-2 310
22 Vernon Gholston Jr. Ohio State Defensive End 6-4 265

LSU guy is tackle but may be too good to pass up but likely gone by then.

Think if we can add a true play-making pass rusher that is good enough to start and a free agent cb or backer that brings more speed our defense could be even better and not give our offense pressure to win games.

We have a good enough offense to win it all right now b/c our defense can be a top 5 unit in 08'. Lets make sure that happens and add to it.

That's my point.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;417520]I agree. But I thought we were talking about what to do with our 1st round pick.

If a stud qb falls to us (not sure who that would be at this point), say this year's Aaron Rodgers - would you want to spend our first rounder on a young back-up qb?[/quote]

point taken, my bad for getting off topic. To answer the ?, I'd say definitely no. But going back to your original post, I'd agree that there are several positions that we could justify as our #1 pick. I wouldn't be upset if they drafted a wr, cb, ol,dl, or maybe even safety. Out of those positions they could nab whoever they feel is the best available & it would make sense.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

Let me say this first off, I would be happy with a DE or even a DT. As far as your list though. Long is a) a 3-4 type guy and will be gone by the time we pick, Dorsey will also be long gone by our pick.

As I said before, there are a few positions we're set out and don't need more talent, BUT minus those few positions best available. We have some old guys in big positions such as OL, and DL.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

calais campbell!

when has The U done us wrong?

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=J. Spanky;417747]calais campbell!

when has The U done us wrong?[/QUOTE]

He's too tall!

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=QBall;417726]Nice post. Don't know if history in draft is apples to apples for this year. I know there are some nice looking players like:

15 Derrick Harvey Jr. Florida Defensive End 6-4 255
5 Chris Long Sr. Virginia Defensive End 6-4 280
2 Glen Dorsey Sr. LSU Defensive Tackle 6-2 310
22 Vernon Gholston Jr. Ohio State Defensive End 6-4 265

LSU guy is tackle but may be too good to pass up but likely gone by then.

Think if we can add a true play-making pass rusher that is good enough to start and a free agent cb or backer that brings more speed our defense could be even better and not give our offense pressure to win games.

We have a good enough offense to win it all right now b/c our defense can be a top 5 unit in 08'. Lets make sure that happens and add to it.

That's my point.[/QUOTE]

long dorsey have no chance of dropping that far, dorsey or long could even go #1. gholston will likely also be gone

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=QBall;417754]He's too tall![/QUOTE]

Yeah - Who would want a 6' 7" defensive end with arms that can touch the roof of Texas stadium? I mean, what use is to a defensive end who may want to knock down passes ....

Oh wait.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;417522]Daniels isn't flashy but then he didn't get a flashy contract either. Not sure where you get the "we picked him expecting a log more production" line. He has been a good signing for good value. I for one never expected him to do more than be a plugger. That he has done and done well.

Yes we need a stud DE but that doesn't mean we have to trash Daniels. He's a solid, unspectacular end. Lots of teams would take his production over the last three years.[/QUOTE]

Daniels is definitely a cheap player who has played up to, or even outperformed, his contract. I also think it is highly unlikely we'll dump him since Blache loves Daniels and Blache reportedly has great or total control over personnel decisions affecting the defense. However, I think Blache could draft a guy like Calais Campbell to take Daniels' spot in 2009 and to line up at LDE on passing situations, with Daniels and Griffin at DE and Carter at RDE. Blache supposedly loves corners, Springs may be gone, and Rogers is coming off an injury, but I don't know if we can afford top FA corners or if any quality corners will be available when we pick at #21.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;417807]Daniels is definitely a cheap player who has played up to, or even outperformed, his contract. I also think it is highly unlikely we'll dump him since Blache loves Daniels and Blache reportedly has great or total control over personnel decisions affecting the defense. However, I think Blache could draft a guy like Calais Campbell to take Daniels' spot in 2009 and to line up at LDE on passing situations, with Daniels and Griffin at DE and Carter at RDE. Blache supposedly loves corners, Springs may be gone, and Rogers is coming off an injury, but I don't know if we can afford top FA corners or if any quality corners will be available when we pick at #21.[/quote]

I see Daniels playing 1 more year, think he has only 1 yr. left on his deal. He's done a good job & he is a decent pass rusher, he's just lost a step & can't get sacks much, but he collapses the pocket well & makes qb's step up. He's also best on the team at batting down passes. Overall, a tough vet player IMO.

But you're right about looking for his replacement. If they don't get a DE w/the 1st pick, I would expect to see one taken in the 2nd or 3rd round.

CB is still an issue too. I hope Springs is here, but even if he is I wouldn't be surprised to see a cb drafted 1st if the right one is there. Looks like at this point none of the best ones are projected higher than 15 or so. Talib from Kansas might be available. Brandon Flowers from Va. tEch might still be there in the 2nd. He's an underclassmen who would be a 1st rounder in 09 if he stayed in school.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=WillH;417454]... I know Blache likes good corners, but with Rogers healthy we have a pretty legit CB corps, and any QB can complete passes to any WR against any CB given enough time. WE NEED A PASS RUSH![/QUOTE]

I have yet to see Rogers be very legit. Maybe I'm being harsh but I consider him to be mediocre at best when healthy and with his draft position he definitely has not lived up to the billing. But hey at least we didn't get Pacman! Shawn Springs has played well at times but is a play away from retirement. Smoot has been a nice surprise in the secondary, followed by my favorite young talent in the NFL; Mr. Suicide Mission himself, Laron Landry. With rogers injury now(obviously not his fault) he really doesn't have much upside for next season. I am really pulling for Dematha/Salisbury University alum Byron Westbrook to earn a spot this offseason.
By the way what is kenny Phillips projected to go in the draft? He is eerily similar to ST. If he's got the value I would like to see him go at number 21 to the skins

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=killromo;417823]I have yet to see Rogers be very legit. Maybe I'm being harsh but I consider him to be mediocre at best when healthy and with his draft position he definitely has not lived up to the billing. But hey at least we didn't get Pacman! Shawn Springs has played well at times but is a play away from retirement. Smoot has been a nice surprise in the secondary, followed by my favorite young talent in the NFL; Mr. Suicide Mission himself, Laron Landry. With rogers injury now(obviously not his fault) he really doesn't have much upside for next season. I am really pulling for Dematha/Salisbury University alum Byron Westbrook to earn a spot this offseason.
By the way what is kenny Phillips projected to go in the draft? He is eerily similar to ST. If he's got the value I would like to see him go at number 21 to the skins[/quote]

Most have Phillips as the top safety but not rated in the top 10. I think if he has a good combine his stock will go up & he won't be there for us.

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[QUOTE=QBall;417754]He's too tall![/QUOTE]

The same height as Mario Williams is he too tall?

Re: # 21 draft pick
 

[quote=killromo;417823]I have yet to see Rogers be very legit. Maybe I'm being harsh but I consider him to be mediocre at best when healthy and with his draft position he definitely has not lived up to the billing. But hey at least we didn't get Pacman! Shawn Springs has played well at times but is a play away from retirement. Smoot has been a nice surprise in the secondary, followed by my favorite young talent in the NFL; Mr. Suicide Mission himself, Laron Landry. With rogers injury now(obviously not his fault) he really doesn't have much upside for next season. I am really pulling for Dematha/Salisbury University alum Byron Westbrook to earn a spot this offseason.
By the way what is kenny Phillips projected to go in the draft? He is eerily similar to ST. If he's got the value I would like to see him go at number 21 to the skins[/quote]

popular pick is putting him at #13 to the panthers.

if he's there at 21, i'd love to have him. guaranteed pro-bowler, maybe as early as his 2nd or 3rd season, and hopefully an instant impact starter.

we still do need a legit DE like no one's business though.