What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Just wondering what you guys think will end up happening with Todd Collins. He's supposedly still a priority to be re-signed. Will he stay in order to shake the thought that he can only play in Saunders' system, or at his age will he be less than thrilled about the idea of learning a new system? Would he stay if he's promised anything less than a real shot at the starting job??

Finally, should he be given the opportunity to compete for the starting job here? Remember we're talking about a new head coach with no ties to Campbell. Could there be an open competition? Should there be?

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Throughout this process Snyder and Cerrato have placed a high priority on Jason Campbell's development. I suspect their will be a lot of pressure to have Jason be the guy. Personally I'm a Jason fan and want him to succeed. I appreciate what Collins did here last year, but honestly I worry some about the any pressure that might develop to play Collins if the offense (new offense) struggles out of the gate, which is probable. I think it has to be Jason's team and he has to be allowed the opportunity to succeed. Of course, I have a stake even beyond being a Skins fan since I've amassed a pretty expensive collection of Campbell Rookie cards and just got an authentic (not fake eBay crap) 75 anniversary jersey :)

[url=http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m295/foleyek/Jason%20Campbell/]foleyek/Jason Campbell - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting[/url]

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m295/foleyek/Auth%20Jerseys/IMG_2376.jpg[/IMG]

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;420696]Just wondering what you guys think will end up happening with Todd Collins. He's supposedly still a priority to be re-signed. Will he stay in order to shake the thought that he can only play in Saunders' system, or at his age will he be less than thrilled about the idea of learning a new system? Would he stay if he's promised anything less than a real shot at the starting job??

Finally, should he be given the opportunity to compete for the starting job here? Remember we're talking about a new head coach with no ties to Campbell. Could there be an open competition? Should there be?[/quote]

Collins isn't going to stay here and learn a west coast offense. He's going to STL with Al. Look at how poorly Gus played when Bulger went down? No way do they bring back Gus. They've got to upgrade there cause Bulger tends to get hurt. It's so important to have a good back-up cause chances are he's going to have to play.

However if he does stay here then he should be the back up. JC is and should be the starter.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

who are some of the other free agent QB's who will be available this off season? I think we would have to look at one of those and see if we could find one who could be (1) cheaper than TC, since his value has probably gone up considerably, and (2) one that is familiar with Zorn's WC offense. Open competition, I don't think so. Campbell has to be given his chance.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;420696]Just wondering what you guys think will end up happening with Todd Collins. He's supposedly still a priority to be re-signed. Will he stay in order to shake the thought that he can only play in Saunders' system, or at his age will he be less than thrilled about the idea of learning a new system? Would he stay if he's promised anything less than a real shot at the starting job??

Finally, should he be given the opportunity to compete for the starting job here? Remember we're talking about a new head coach with no ties to Campbell. Could there be an open competition? Should there be?[/quote]

It's amazing we were just having this discussion. I think there is a minor chance that he would stay, IF he thought he had a better chance to play here than in St. Louis. Of course, some desperate 3rd team might give him the starting job on a stainless steel platter. I'd say there's about a 1 in 15 chance HE decides to stay, assuming the Redskins even want him.

This conversation next goes to Brunell, then to available veteran FA QBs, and finally deteriorates into a re-hash of the Ramsey argument. That's my prediction.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Call me crazy but I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that Collins will follow Saunders to St. Louis. But a lot could depend on what plans Zorn has for him, if any. Even if Collins stays we'll probably need to bring in a veteran who's got experience in the WCO. Someone who can at least help mentor JC.

The WCO could actually be a good fit for a guy like Collins. Zorn said his offense will be all about rhythm, and as we saw Collins is definitely a rhythm QB... drop back and get the ball out quickly. I think he could make the transition to this new offense easy enough.

But ultimately I think JC has to be the main focus and he should remain the starter.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I really think he'd go to St. Louis to be with Al, I don't think he would stay here just because he's comfortable in that system and he can be a teacher to Marc Bulger and the other St. Louis qb's. I assume if he does go to free agency a lot of teams will be interested in him though.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Personally I want Collins to stay. If anything I trust the guy to run an offense, especially in times of need. Especially one that will be based in part on timing and rythem.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;420706]Call me crazy but I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that Collins will follow Saunders to St. Louis. But a lot could depend on what plans Zorn has for him, if any. Even if Collins stays we'll probably need to bring in a veteran who's got experience in the WCO. Someone who can at least help mentor JC.

The WCO could actually be a good fit for a guy like Collins. Zorn said his offense will be all about rhythm, and as we saw Collins is definitely a rhythm QB... drop back and get the ball out quickly. I think he could make the transition to this new offense easy enough.

But ultimately I think JC has to be the main focus and he should remain the starter.[/quote]


I agree that Collins would seem to be a natural fit for the system. And he's smart enough that you might not have to bring in the West Coast specialist you were talking about. He might be able to learn it fast enough that he could be that specialist.

Or he may already be looking at houses in St. Louis. I would like to keep him here, but it seems a remote possibility.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

after last years pre season, its amazing we are even having this discussion. but i think collins stays. as the back up. right now, because the skins have so much invested in Jason Campbell, they cant do anything that would disrupt his confidence. having a 36 year old journeyman compete for the starting job with him could do that. and i think Brunell is done/ retired. or i at least hope so

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;420701]Collins isn't going to stay here and learn a west coast offense. He's going to STL with Al. Look at how poorly Gus played when Bulger went down? No way do they bring back Gus. They've got to upgrade there cause Bulger tends to get hurt. It's so important to have a good back-up cause chances are he's going to have to play.

However if he does stay here then he should be the back up. JC is and should be the starter.[/QUOTE]

Maybe Gus will come here. Wasn't he in Detroit when Zorn was the QB coach there?

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;420696]Just wondering what you guys think will end up happening with Todd Collins. He's supposedly still a priority to be re-signed. Will he stay in order to shake the thought that he can only play in Saunders' system, or at his age will he be less than thrilled about the idea of learning a new system? Would he stay if he's promised anything less than a real shot at the starting job??

Finally, should he be given the opportunity to compete for the starting job here? Remember we're talking about a new head coach with no ties to Campbell. Could there be an open competition? Should there be?[/quote]You can have all the competition you want, but how in the heck can someone "win" the quarterback competition? What decides this? Is it performance in practice, or performance in preseason? Because neither of those things can accurately project game readiness and productivity.

We can pretend we are having a competition, but Jim Zorn already has a good idea who is going to start for us, and between now and September, there is really no good reason to change that opinion.

It's going to be Campbell.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=dmek25;420712]after last years pre season, its amazing we are even having this discussion. but i think collins stays. as the back up. right now, because the skins have so much invested in Jason Campbell, they cant do anything that would disrupt his confidence. having a 36 year old journeyman compete for the starting job with him could do that. and [b]i think Brunell is done/ retired. or i at least hope so[/b][/quote]

I agree. Like Mark a lot, but don't think he has much left. I did, however, hear Brunell on Sirius last night and he was adament that he wanted to continue to play. He also indicated that he was a FA, which I didn't know (is that right?). Gus coming back would be wild.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

i think it's happy trails to collins.is'nt brunnel familiar with this type of offense?

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;420720]I agree. Like Mark a lot, but don't think he has much left. I did, however, hear Brunell on Sirius last night and he was adament that he wanted to continue to play. He also indicated that he was a FA, which I didn't know (is that right?). Gus coming back would be wild.[/quote]His contract voids automatically on 3/1.

The Redskins would have to reach an agreement with him to keep him here under his current deal.

Anyway, there are plenty of cheap vets at the QB position out there who could bring what Brunell does at age 38.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;420713]Maybe Gus will come here. Wasn't he in Detroit when Zorn was the QB coach there?[/quote]

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Gus is terrible.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;420737]NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Gus is terrible.[/quote]Pretty much.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I think Collins moves on.. He's a system QB, and a backup one at that. Yes he played great down the stretch for us, but I never thought of him as a 16 game starter. I think we bring in Trent Dilfer as a backup and draft a WCO QB in the late rounds. It probably would have been a good idea to keep Jordan Palmer on the practice squad, huh?

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=Paintrain;420740]I think Collins moves on.. He's a system QB, and a backup one at that. Yes he played great down the stretch for us, but I never thought of him as a 16 game starter. I think we bring in Trent Dilfer as a backup and draft a WCO QB in the late rounds. It probably would have been a good idea to keep Jordan Palmer on the practice squad, huh?[/quote]Chad Henne or Joe Flacco would work out well here. We will need a veteran backup to sign. I'll come up with a list of potential names.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[URL="http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?y=2008"]KFFL - 2008 NFL Free Agents[/URL]

Grossman
Culpepper
Josh McCown
Quinn Gray
Ken Dorsey
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Cleo Lemon
Jared Lorenzen
Jamie Martin

umm...disgusting. I'd see if Brunell would play one more season at league minimum. Unless Culpepper would play for beans as opposed to retire?

Of course, there are some competant names on this list:

Billy Volek
Craig Nall

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I think Brunell is gone and it's over 50% chance that Collins stays. St. Louis is the only place that I can see truly making an offer for him. And from what I hear they might not be too active in free agency as they figure out their ownership situation. Of course, TC isn't likely to break the bank so he may be ok.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=Paintrain;420740]I think Collins moves on.. He's a system QB, and a backup one at that. Yes he played great down the stretch for us, but I never thought of him as a 16 game starter. I think we bring in Trent Dilfer as a backup and draft a WCO QB in the late rounds. It probably would have been a good idea to keep Jordan Palmer on the practice squad, huh?[/quote]

IMO it is very important to try and have as little as possible of a drop off when the back-up has to play. When Ben R. gets hurt Batch comes in and plays just as good if not better. This year when JC went down Collins came in and played better and DID NOT turn the ball over. When Alex Smith got hurt Dilfer came in and started a few games. We all know Smith is not a very good NFL QB. I still can't figure out why SF took him with the #1 pick. But when Dilfer came in he played probably worse than Smith. I think I remember Gus coming in a throwing 5 ints and fumbling a game away. If I'm Redskins mgt I'm doing everything I can to keep Collins here.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;420749][URL="http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?y=2008"]KFFL - 2008 NFL Free Agents[/URL]

Grossman
Culpepper
Josh McCown
Quinn Gray
Ken Dorsey
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Cleo Lemon
Jared Lorenzen
Jamie Martin

umm...disgusting. I'd see if Brunell would play one more season at league minimum. Unless Culpepper would play for beans as opposed to retire?

Of course, there are some competant names on this list:

Billy Volek
Craig Nall[/quote]


Tim Rattay and Tim Hasselback in AZ are both FA. I like the fatass Lorenzen for the Freak-Show aspect he brings as well. He could take a bowling ball in the gut at halftime.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I think there is a decent chance Collins stays. My prediction is that Campbell will not be the Skins starter at the end of the 2009 season.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Would any of you take a chance on Chris Simms or try to lure Jake Plummer out of retirement?

I wouldn't, just wondering if anyone else would

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I think collins leaves,probably to st.louis.I would like to see either Gus F.,Billy Volek or Josh McCown.If there is any chance we can get Seneca Wallace from Seattle that would be sweet!

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;420764]Would any of you take a chance on Chris Simms or try to lure Jake Plummer out of retirement?

I wouldn't, just wondering if anyone else would[/quote]

They both seem like they would piss and moan if they didn't get to be the starter. And with Simms, you'd have his old man pissing and moaning in harmony.

I believe Campbell is the guy. We need a backup that is willing to accept his fate. Sort of the way Mark Brunell was this last year.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Why do the Skins never have talent they developed at key back-up positions like QB. Instead if Collins leaves they have to scrape around the bottom of the barrel for one of the most important positions on the team.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;420764]Would any of you take a chance on Chris Simms or try to lure Jake Plummer out of retirement?

I wouldn't, just wondering if anyone else would[/quote]There's really not a whole lot of reason to think Simms is capable of playing QB in the NFL. He was pretty mediocre in 2005, and hasn't been healthy since. I wouldn't go there.

Plummer is pretty awful too. I would rather try to re-sign Brunell, or spend 1 million a year on Billy Volek.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Our QB depth last year probably saved the season. So I wouldn't say we never have quality depth there.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I like Simms but he's in the same stage of his career as JC and I think it would be counterproductive for both of them to be here competing for the same job. The last thing we need to give JC is a new offense and a QB controversy.

No way to Plummer regardless.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;420775]Our QB depth last year probably saved the season. So I wouldn't say we never have quality depth there.[/QUOTE]

Its never depth that the Skins develop. Thank God for TC last year because if Campbell had finished the year I doubt the Skins would have had 6 wins.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=irish;420770]Why do the Skins never have talent they developed at key back-up positions like QB. Instead if Collins leaves they have to scrape around the bottom of the barrel for one of the most important positions on the team.[/quote]Not sure I'd describe QB as a "key-backup position". I mean, yeah if your starter gets hurt, you need a guy who can throw the ball and hold the fort down from a few weeks. But outside of injury, the backup is never going to play for a team that has it's franchise QB.

Developing a backup is not something all teams (or most) are lucky enough to do, because it's a relatively low cost, low success proposition. Teams like Jacksonville and Atlanta have been successful, but there are many more teams who have tried just as hard and failed.

Veteran backups are the surest thing.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

Billy Volek has been consistaint and put up huge numbers at times when hes had the chance... No team has ever really given him a fair shake. He could be a sure number 2 in case something happens to JC.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=irish;420777]Its never depth that the Skins develop. Thank God for TC last year because if Campbell had finished the year I doubt the Skins would have had 6 wins.[/quote]

Depth is depth. What does it matter if it's a free agent or a drafted player?

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;420749][URL="http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?y=2008"]KFFL - 2008 NFL Free Agents[/URL]

Grossman
Culpepper
Josh McCown
Quinn Gray
Ken Dorsey
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Cleo Lemon
Jared Lorenzen
Jamie Martin

umm...disgusting. I'd see if Brunell would play one more season at league minimum. Unless Culpepper would play for beans as opposed to retire?

Of course, there are some competant names on this list:

Billy Volek
Craig Nall[/quote]

Some of these guys have played well and won games in the NFL. I thought Lemon played pretty well considering the circumstances. He throws a nice ball and I remember him playing pretty well against NE. Grey started a few games while Garrard was out won some games for them. McCown can play if needed. I'm not sure about Culpepper anymore. But some of these guys are not as bad as Dilfer or Gus.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[quote=irish;420777]Its never depth that the Skins develop. Thank God for TC last year because if Campbell had finished the year I doubt the Skins would have had 6 wins.[/quote]Campbell won 6 games as a starter, so even if the Skins had not made an improvement on defense (which has nothing to do with the QB), or offense (which is due to the QB), and lost their final three, then Campbell still won 6 games as a starter.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

I think it's a foregone conclusion that Collins will follow Saunders to St. Louis. He followed him from KC to Washington, I don't know why he wouldn't do it again. Saunders is his best chance for success.

Zorn was brought here with the mindset of developing Campbell. There's no questioning the organization's committment to him.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;420784]Depth is depth. What does it matter if it's a free agent or a drafted player?[/QUOTE]

Because now the Skins are in a postition if TC leaves that they are basicaly stuck having to troll the bottom for someone that might be able to play.

Re: What does the Zorn hiring mean for Todd Collins?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;420782]Not sure I'd describe QB as a "key-backup position". I mean, yeah if your starter gets hurt, you need a guy who can throw the ball and hold the fort down from a few weeks. But outside of injury, the backup is never going to play for a team that has it's franchise QB.

Developing a backup is not something all teams (or most) are lucky enough to do, because it's a relatively low cost, low success proposition. Teams like Jacksonville and Atlanta have been successful, but there are many more teams who have tried just as hard and failed.

Veteran backups are the surest thing.[/QUOTE]

Its important. If the Skins hadnt had a quality back-up last season I dont think they would have been in the playoffs.