What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

Ok, so after I saw Jason Elam is NOW with the Falcons and won't finish his career with the team that he won so many games for so many years...not to mention Vinatieri leaving New England...I just can't believe teams have no loyalty to this often over-looked crucial position. I know it's just business, and every team has to make the decisions based on what's best for the team in the long run....but after seeing the loyalty to Brett Favre in Green Bay, basically saying he'd be the QB there until he was ready to leave...it saddens me to think back when players like Montana and Rice had to finish their careers in other places.

If you were the GM or owner, would you have given the $$$ to Elam, Vinatieri, or even Mosley for that matter??

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=Redskins247;434090]Ok, so after I saw Jason Elam is NOW with the Falcons and won't finish his career with the team that he won so many games for so many years...not to mention Vinatieri leaving New England...I just can't believe teams have no loyalty to this often over-looked crucial position. I know it's just business, and every team has to make the decisions based on what's best for the team in the long run....but after seeing the loyalty to Brett Favre in Green Bay, basically saying he'd be the QB there until he was ready to leave...it saddens me to think back when players like Montana and Rice had to finish their careers in other places.

If you were the GM or owner, would you have given the $$$ to Elam, Vinatieri, or even Mosley for that matter??[/quote]Definately not. Once a kicker hits his thirties, his leg strength starts decreasing and he becomes a player who can be easily and cheaply replaced and improved on.

Plus, if the player was in to 'loyalty' he would sign for the vet minimum and compete for his job. Elam did the right thing by taking the money elsewhere.

Re: Kickers
 

Kickers are clutch for teams to have but I do not think that they can be quantified with the likes of Montana, Rice, and so many other greats that left their original team. Elam and Vinatieri did win games for their original teams no doubt, but at the end of the day they are still just kickers and in no way do they need to held in the same light as franchise QB's and great WR's. I mean where was this thread when Warren Sapp retired? Or when key offensive linemen switch teams? Kickers come and go, some are better than others but they can be replaced...

Re: Kickers
 

this is why the NBA is the best, when it comes to the salary cap. they have the Larry Bird rule. when you can sign a vet at max money, and only a portion counts against the cap. trying to encourage stars to finish their careers where they started it

Re: Kickers
 

I don't think loyalty should a factor, but do I think teams continue to underestimate the ease with which they can replace reliable kickers. For such an unheralded position it can be the difference between defeat and dynasty, as the Patriots show.

We saw in the Superbowl the Patriots pass on a field goal opportunity on fourth and long, in a game they ended up losing by 3 points. You have to think they would have been more keen to attempt it if they still had Vinatieri back there.

Re: Kickers
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;434094]this is why the NBA is the best, when it comes to the salary cap. they have the Larry Bird rule. when you can sign a vet at max money, and only a portion counts against the cap. trying to encourage stars to finish their careers where they started it[/QUOTE]

The New York Knicks didn’t get $82 million over the salary cap in 2006-07 with “Larry Bird exceptions”. The NBA cap is a joke, they say there is a cap but what is the penalty for exceeding it, luxury tax. So there is no cap, just a suggestion and a fee.

Re: Kickers
 

all i was talking about was the veteran exception rule. that would be nice to have in the nfl. because we will probably never see another Darrell Green, or Brett Favre again. the player that stays with his original team for his whole career. seeing Art Monk in an ugly ass jets uniform is not how i want to remember him

Re: Kickers
 

The NFL needs a veteran exception rule, to encourage home grown players.

In regard to kickers, it is hard to justify big bucks for an aging guy. You can a good young kicker for a lot less. The money you save could be spent elsewhere. It's rare to find a kicker worth major dollars.

I'm curious to see how Elam does in Atlanta. He will have the advantage of playing in a dome, but not the thinner air of Denver.

Re: Kickers
 

Atlanta needs all the help they can get. I don't see them riding his leg to a winning season, so I wouldn't have paid the big bucks to either keep him, or sign him. But, good for him for getting paid.

Re: Kickers
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;434094]this is why the NBA is the best, when it comes to the salary cap. they have the Larry Bird rule. when you can sign a vet at max money, and only a portion counts against the cap. trying to encourage stars to finish their careers where they started it[/QUOTE]

On the flip side the NBA cap also cripples teams by saddling them with contracts they can never get out from under threby creating a system in which 75% of the teams can be eliminated from contention on opening day.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=djnemo65;434095]I don't think loyalty should a factor, but do I think teams continue to underestimate the ease with which they can replace reliable kickers. For such an unheralded position it can be the difference between defeat and dynasty, as the Patriots show.

We saw in the Superbowl the Patriots pass on a field goal opportunity on fourth and long, in a game they ended up losing by 3 points. You have to think they would have been more keen to attempt it if they still had Vinatieri back there.[/quote]

good point about that fg opp. It's been talked about a lot, but I never heard anyone say, 'what if vinatieri was still there?'

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=lwiedy;434098]The New York Knicks didn’t get $82 million over the salary cap in 2006-07 with “Larry Bird exceptions”. The NBA cap is a joke, they say there is a cap but what is the penalty for exceeding it, luxury tax. So there is no cap, just a suggestion and a fee.[/quote]

I don't think you're giving his point a chance, the knicks are over the cap because they've managed it poorly & signed a bunch of big name old free agents. It obviously hasn't gotten them too far. Sound famililar?

The point of the bird exception is that a team has a competitive edge to retain its players. It has kept stars w/their teams longer IMO. It doesn't prevent them from being traded, e.g. Garnett to Boston, but trades can come about due to players and/or management desires.

the nfl would benefit more from a similar rule. I could see it replacing the franchise tag in a new collective bargaining agreement. Especially the Skins, danny would gladly pay 10-15% extra to keep some guys.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=Redskins247;434090]Ok, so after I saw Jason Elam is NOW with the Falcons and won't finish his career with the team that he won so many games for so many years...not to mention Vinatieri leaving New England...I just can't believe teams have no loyalty to this often over-looked crucial position. I know it's just business, and every team has to make the decisions based on what's best for the team in the long run....but after seeing the loyalty to Brett Favre in Green Bay, basically saying he'd be the QB there until he was ready to leave...it saddens me to think back when players like Montana and Rice had to finish their careers in other places.

If you were the GM or owner, would you have given the $$$ to Elam, Vinatieri, or even Mosley for that matter??[/quote]

I read that Elam is from ATl. so that probably weighed heavily in his decision.

Re: Kickers
 

First of all, Denver offered Elam a solid contract. It was worthy of a player of his age / stature. ATL offered more and Elam is in fact from that area.

Football is a business. The last thing you want is your team spending precious salary cap dollars on an aging kicker looking for a payday. Unfortunately in this day and age it's difficult to be loyal. I'd love to see them work something into the salary cap where a team can give more money to long time vets of the team without taking huge salary cap hits.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=djnemo65;434095]We saw in the Superbowl the Patriots pass on a field goal opportunity on fourth and long, in a game they ended up losing by 3 points. You have to think they would have been more keen to attempt it if they still had Vinatieri back there.[/quote]Possibly, but giving Belichick the benefit of the doubt here, I would have to imagine he would have gone for it even with Vinatieri on his roster. It was not a certain kick for any kicker, but it was certainly more within Gostkowski's range than it would have been for Vinatieri. Ultimately, the decision was made because the Pats have a great offense, and no matter who is kicking for them, they still have a great offense.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=dmek25;434101]all i was talking about was the veteran exception rule. that would be nice to have in the nfl. because we will probably never see another Darrell Green, or Brett Favre again. the player that stays with his original team for his whole career. seeing Art Monk in an ugly ass jets uniform is not how i want to remember him[/quote]But what if the alternative is that players around the league retire earlier because the best money for 30+ players will only be available if their current team still has the need at the position?

This is just my personal opinion, but if a guy like Brunell, who I enjoy watching play, can extend his career by signing with New Orleans (and Brunell is a poor example for multiple reasons, but bear with me), then I'm all for him doing so, if the alternative is retiring.

I wasn't old enough to comprehend Monk days as a Jet or Eagle, but I'm sure I would have rooted for him even though he was no longer a Skin, and it would have been a better alternative than to have him retire simply because the Redskins want to go in a different direction.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=riggins44;434106]The NFL needs a veteran exception rule, to encourage home grown players.

In regard to kickers, it is hard to justify big bucks for an aging guy. You can a good young kicker for a lot less. The money you save could be spent elsewhere. It's rare to find a kicker worth major dollars.

I'm curious to see how Elam does in Atlanta. He will have the advantage of playing in a dome, but not the thinner air of Denver.[/quote]

Elam is 26/32 career kicking in a dome. That's 81.3%, better than his 80.6% total career percentage. His long is 56 yards inside. Outside was 63 yards, which was in Denver's air. He's also a perfect 48/48 on PATs in domes. He's 601/604 total for his career on PATs so that stat really doesn't matter. He should have, and did, make them anywhere.


So, it looks like he might be a little more accurate indoors, but his career long and NFL-tying record kick was outside in Denver.

He should be about the same reliable kicker he's always been.

Re: Kickers
 

Kicking is so hot/cold that it's hard to predict between aging veterans and super-legged youngsters. Because of this, a guy like Morten Andersen at 47 still has teams paying him to kick (although his days are now really numbered, since Atlanta was the one team that kept bringing him back).

Elam has been one of the League's best for the last 15 years, and should continue to do so kicking for the Falcons.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

I understand the Broncos not wanting to open the piggy bank for him, but this guy connected for 87.1% of his kicks last year (tied for second best of his career), and the year before he connected for 93.1% of his kicks (the best of his career). He also had 4 game winning kicks last year, the most since 1990. He has the most games played in Broncos history, how can they not keep him? He's still valuable.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;434301]I understand the Broncos not wanting to open the piggy bank for him, but this guy connected for 87.1% of his kicks last year (tied for second best of his career), and the year before he connected for 93.1% of his kicks (the best of his career). He also had 4 game winning kicks last year, the most since 1990. He has the most games played in Broncos history, how can they not keep him? He's still valuable.[/QUOTE]

He's valuable, but he's 38, and unless he stops doing kickoffs to give his leg a rest, he will probably retire and maybe comeback like Morten Anderson does.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

[QUOTE=SeanTaylor21;434302]He's valuable, but he's 38, and unless he stops doing kickoffs to give his leg a rest, he will probably retire and maybe comeback like Morten Anderson does.[/QUOTE]

Well, he can still kick the long ball. He had a long of 50 last year, and is 2 of 3 from 50 or longer the last 2 years. 38 is nothing in terms of kickers.
This guy is absolute money from 20-39. He hasn't missed a FG from 20-39 since 2003 (minus two blocks). That's 68 for 70. He's also durable, missing only 4 games in his career.

I find your kickoffs comment puzzling though, he has only done 2 kickoffs in the last 5 years. He stopped doing them full time after the 02 season, and hasn't done a single kickoff in 2 years.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;434304]Well, he can still kick the long ball. He had a long of 50 last year, and is 2 of 3 from 50 or longer the last 2 years. 38 is nothing in terms of kickers.
This guy is absolute money from 20-39. He hasn't missed a FG from 20-39 since 2003 (minus two blocks). That's 68 for 70. He's also durable, missing only 4 games in his career.

I find your kickoffs comment puzzling though, he has only done 2 kickoffs in the last 5 years. He stopped doing them full time after the 02 season, and hasn't done a single kickoff in 2 years.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I thought he was doing every kickoff, my bad.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

[QUOTE=SeanTaylor21;434305]Oh, I thought he was doing every kickoff, my bad.[/QUOTE]

No sir...I know Saurbraun did them for a while...he had a huge leg.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=riggins44;434106]The NFL needs a veteran exception rule, to encourage home grown players.

In regard to kickers, it is hard to justify big bucks for an aging guy. You can a good young kicker for a lot less. The money you save could be spent elsewhere. It's rare to find a kicker worth major dollars.

I'm curious to see how Elam does in Atlanta. He will have the advantage of playing in a dome, but not the thinner air of Denver.[/quote]Let us not forget that Atlanta is built up in the Appalachian Mountains, and while it's not as high as Denver, it is the second highest altitude for a stadium in the NFL.

Re: Kickers
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;434350]Let us not forget that Atlanta is built up in the Appalachian Mountains, and while it's not as high as Denver, it is the second highest altitude for a stadium in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

Great job with that little known fact...a lot of people don't realize how high Atlanta is. However, you are slightly incorrect. Phoenix is 2nd highest, Atlanta is 3rd. It's not by much, but it's still higher.

The great thing about Elam in Atlanta is he doesn't have to worry about the elements.

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=jsarno;434364]Great job with that little known fact...a lot of people don't realize how high Atlanta is. However, you are slightly incorrect. Phoenix is 2nd highest, Atlanta is 3rd. It's not by much, but it's still higher.

The great thing about Elam in Atlanta is he doesn't have to worry about the elements.[/quote]Fair enough. Perhaps with the new stadium location, it's at a higher altitude and my source (publication) is outdated? Must be pretty darn close.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;434311]No sir...I know Saurbraun did them for a while...he had a huge leg.[/QUOTE]

Didn't Sauerbran get suspended for using steroids?

Re: Kickers
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;434373]Fair enough. Perhaps with the new stadium location, it's at a higher altitude and my source (publication) is outdated? Must be pretty darn close.[/QUOTE]

Well according to wikipedia, Atlanta ranges from 738-1050 ft. in elevation.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta,_Georgia]Atlanta, Georgia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

According to wikipedia, Phoenix is 1,117 ft in elevation.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona]Phoenix, Arizona - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Atlanta is actually the highest of any major city east of Denver, which is likely why you thought what you did. You are right that it's not by a wide margin though. So even if the Georgia Dome was at the highest point in Atlanta, it would still be only 1050ft. Doubt it is at it's highest point too...but just saying for arguments sake.

But like I said, most people have no clue Atlanta is that high, especially considering it is fairly close to the ocean. Only travelers with a desire for geography seem to know that. (or people that live, or did live around Atlanta know).

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

[QUOTE=SeanTaylor21;434384]Didn't Sauerbran get suspended for using steroids?[/QUOTE]

Well, not exactly. He took a banned dietary suppliment back in 06 that got him suspended for 4 games. When he played in Carolina, they fined him for being over weight, then he started taking the dietary suppliment to control his weight. No one knows if he knew it was illegal or not. But that's the story. Supposedly it was ephedra. He was linked to a doctor that prescribed steroids and HGH to NFL players, but nothing was proven.
He is currently a free agent if I recall though. Shanahan took him back for 07 and he agreed to stay clean and out of trouble. Well he had a run in with a cabbie in december, and a week later was released. Sauerbrun has a history of alcohol abuse.

Re: What Does Jason Elam's New Deal Say About Loyalty and Respect for Kickers?
 

I found a link to most of the info for Sauerbrun.
[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3149126]ESPN - Broncos punter cited for simple assault outside Denver eatery - NFL[/url]

Re: Kickers
 

[quote=lwiedy;434098]The New York Knicks didn’t get $82 million over the salary cap in 2006-07 with “Larry Bird exceptions”. The NBA cap is a joke, they say there is a cap but what is the penalty for exceeding it, luxury tax. So there is no cap, just a suggestion and a fee.[/quote]

The NBA salary cap is a lot more complicated and restrictive then you suggest above.

In fact, it is setup to reward teams for keeping its current players.

This off season, the Wizards could go over the cap resigning one of their own players (i.e Arenas), but not a player from another team.