BitterGate
 

I understand and respect SmootSmack's desire to keep the political discussion here semi-intelligent, but I think the following statement from BHO is discussion worthy. It's unbelievable to me that someone running for President would say:

[I]"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations" [/I]

As though working class people in Pennsylvania had no affinity for guns or religion until 25 years ago. This is going to be a problem for him.

Re: BitterGate
 

im part of the mix that he is talking about. and i totally agree. have you ever been to Pittsburgh? or Steelton? or Coatesville? all are old steel towns with little or no jobs available. your damn right those people are bitter. i see this as a non issue

Re: BitterGate
 

I think it was the "guns, religion, and anti-immigrant" part that 70 is talking about. The basic idea seems correct, but the execution is pretty f-ed up.

Re: BitterGate
 

Yeah, I have no issue with the bitter part. It's the "bitter and clinging to guns and religion" that are offensive. You never want to paint anyone with that broad a stroke, especially when it concerns topics as fundamental to this country as religion and the right to bear arms. To do so against the state that will arguably have the largest say in whether or not he is chosen to represent his party in the upcoming election? This could be a colossal misstep.

Re: BitterGate
 

The quote posted need context.

[yt]krztzebJgMc[/yt]

Re: BitterGate
 

Here's Obama's response to the controversy with some clarification. He's not really backing down from the bitter comment and I think he is absolutely right, you better believe people are bitter. To me, what he is really saying is that people start caring about minor issues in his view like guns, and gay marriage, etc instead of focusing on the real tough challenges that we face and bringing an end to the cycle of b.s. that goes on in Washington.


[yt]G6_mQ3h8lx0[/yt]
[yt]H4RZoJjlBLk[/yt]

Re: BitterGate
 

is this a case of someone like Fox making a issue where there really isn't? i still see this as a non issue. and it is really funny to hear someone like a 72 year old John McCain saying someone else is out of touch. that man hasn't a clue on every day problems us real Americans face. now, show him a war, or conflict, and that's right up his alley

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=dmek25;439348]is this a case of someone like Fox making a issue where there really isn't? i still see this as a non issue. and it is really funny to hear someone like a 72 year old John McCain saying someone else is out of touch. that man [B]hasn't a clue on every day problems us real Americans face. now, show him a war, or conflict, and that's right up his alley[/B][/quote]

Gotta love that quote, can I put that as my sig? It just goes to show that too many people consider the war an issue that they don't really face, simply because it doesn't happen in their own back yard.

The war is the #1 issue we all face. Plain and simple.

McCain understands the issues, and to some extent Hillary and Obama do too, but he's the only one of the three who has his priorities in the right order and has solutions that won't hurt us in the long run.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Schneed10;439349]Gotta love that quote, can I put that as my sig? It just goes to show that too many people consider the war an issue that they don't really face, simply because it doesn't happen in their own back yard.

The war is the #1 issue we all face. Plain and simple.

McCain understands the issues, and to some extent Hillary and Obama do too, but [B]he's the only one of the three who has his priorities in the right order and has solutions that won't hurt us in the long run.[/B][/quote]


Is it that so? Well if you're not keeping the economy strong and the economy is not your strong point how do you keep the war going? Borrow some more money from China? I hear they have 1.5 trillion saved up.

As they say, it's the economy stupid, always!

[yt]kqGWTh_NZ-0[/yt]

Sagging economy, war, and tax cuts...that's very rich.

More goodies...he really knows his shit doesn't he?

[yt]IdNKQ8XapIA[/yt]

[yt]jkfM7z0-Vdg[/yt]

Re: BitterGate
 

He's right in one sense, and so off base in another that it's almost comical.

He has essentially said that guns, religion and gay marriage are unimportant issues to people. They're "clinging" to them because they're really just upset about the economy. How anyone can't see the absurdity of that is beyond me. Those issues are HUGE to tens of millions of people - it's not even debatable.

It's so arrogantly dismissive of issues that are of foundational importance to millions of Americans that I'm willing to just give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a verbal flub.

Re: BitterGate
 

I guarantee everyone's response in this thread would be different if they didn't know who made these comments or if it was Clinton or McCain that made them

And I think Mheisig is pretty spot on with his post.

Re: BitterGate
 

there isn't really much ammo to pick obama apart with. He's a cunning linguist and a master debater. ;)

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439339]Here's Obama's response to the controversy with some clarification. He's not really backing down from the bitter comment and I think he is absolutely right, you better believe people are bitter. To me, what he is really saying is that [B]people start caring about minor issues in his view like guns, and gay marriage[/B], etc instead of focusing on the [B]real tough challenges that we face[/B] and bringing an end to the cycle of b.s. that goes on in Washington.[/QUOTE]

That's precisely why the comment makes him seem so out of touch. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong, but a tremendous number of people in this country do NOT view those issues as "minor."

I think Obama is guilty of what every other politician is guilty of, namely being out of touch. These guys have been groomed from day one for their positions, most are multi-millionaires and haven't lived with the "common folk" that make up a large part of this country.

I think most of the country is guilty of the same thing. We all myopically see just our own point of view, or the views within our small, limited circle of people, and figure that's what the rest of the world thinks.

If you watch Fox News 24 hours a day you'd think President Bush is the greatest President in history. If you watch the Daily Show all week long you'd think the Republican party is nothing but clowns. Our views are dramatically shaped by the influences we surround ourselves with on a regular basis.

Go live in a large metropolitan area and spend your time with some rich white people and you'd think that the only issues that are really important are the economy and the environment. Religion and guns are trifling issues for simpletons to consider.

Head down south and hang out with the country boys and you'd think that the only important issues are guns and religion. As long as the bills are paid, who cares about the economy or the environment?

Head into the projects and people just want to pay their rent - they couldn't give a rats ass about a war that's thousands of miles away or the economy as a whole as long as they've got money for next week.

Dismiss the "guns and religion" crowd as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that's by and large the group that voted the current president into office. Twice. They're clearly voting and clearly having an influence

In the same vein, it's not better to dismiss the economy or the environment as the pedantic issues of the upper class elite in their ivory towers. They're voting too, most around urban population centers.

Dismissing any major group like Obama (or any other politician) is incredibly dangerous. These people are casting votes, whether they're intelligent or not and whether they live in the south, north, a city, the suburbs or the country, they're voting. There are over 80 million gun owners in this country, and I'd be willing to bet a large number of them consider gun ownership and important issue. By simply brushing them aside you've dismissed more than 25% of the U.S. population. You really think that if these people just had more money in their pocket they'd forget about their gun ownership rights? CBS reports that 84% of the population claims a religion. You really believe that if Joe Citizen's retirement investments would just turn around that he really wouldn't care how his religious beliefs (the fundamental beliefs he's held his entire life, the same ones that shape how he votes) are being treated by the government? How much more out of touch can you BE?

Get used to it and start trying to open your mind to what other people consider important and why. Dismissing massive portions of the population like that is damn near political suicide.

Disclaimer: The "you" I refer to is not directed at saden, his post just happened to be the springboard for this rant. It's more of a universal "you" and includes myself.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=mheisig;439366]
I think most of the country is guilty of the same thing. We all myopically see just our own point of view, or the views within our small, limited circle of people, and figure that's what the rest of the world thinks.

If you watch Fox News 24 hours a day you'd think President Bush is the greatest President in history. If you watch the Daily Show all week long you'd think the Republican party is nothing but clowns. Our views are dramatically shaped by the influences we surround ourselves with on a regular basis.

Go live in a large metropolitan area and spend your time with some rich white people and you'd think that the only issues that are really important are the economy and the environment. Religion and guns are trifling issues for simpletons to consider.

Head down south and hang out with the country boys and you'd think that the only important issues are guns and religion. As long as the bills are paid, who cares about the economy or the environment?

Head into the projects and people just want to pay their rent - they couldn't give a rats ass about a war that's thousands of miles away or the economy as a whole as long as they've got money for next week.

[/quote]

I have no problem with [I]you[/I] being me but you're definitely in that category. Did Obama lend you his painting brush?

Honestly though how is it that gay marriage and abortion become at the forefront of our political debate? Guns control is a touchy subject but does limiting gun purchases per a month need to be a first class platform issue?

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439368]I have no problem with [I]you[/I] being me but you're definitely in that category. Did Obama lend you his painting brush?

Honestly though how is it that gay marriage and abortion become at the forefront of our political debate? Guns control is a touchy subject but does limiting gun purchases per a month need to be a first class platform issue?[/QUOTE]

Painting brush? :confused:

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=mheisig;439373]Painting brush? :confused:[/quote]

You've basically said what Obama said...you think people in the south care about guns, people in the ghetto care about paying their bills and the wealthy care about economy and environment. That's a broad brush stroke.

Re: BitterGate
 

No candidate should get a free ride on stereotyping.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439368]I have no problem with [I]you[/I] being me but you're definitely in that category. Did Obama lend you his painting brush?

Honestly though how is it that gay marriage and abortion become at the forefront of our political debate? Guns control is a touchy subject but does limiting gun purchases per a month need to be a first class platform issue?[/QUOTE]

Because people actually do care about these things. Maybe you don't but a significant portion of our society does.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Schneed10;439349]Gotta love that quote, can I put that as my sig? It just goes to show that too many people consider the war an issue that they don't really face, simply because it doesn't happen in their own back yard.

[B]The war is the #1 issue we all face.[/B] Plain and simple.

[B]McCain understands the issues[/B], and to some extent Hillary and Obama do too, but he's the only one of the three who has his priorities in the right order and has solutions that won't hurt us in the long run.[/quote]
we can respectfully agree to disagree. getting out of Iraq, and taking care of Americans here at home, should be every candidates main focus. and for me, john McCain is a warmonger, that scares the shit out of me. you know the old saying, once a fighter, always a fighter. he would love nothing more then to make his mark by using whatever force necessary around the world. after 5+ years in Iraq( that's not working) its time to give politics a chance

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=dmek25;439395]we can respectfully agree to disagree. getting out of Iraq, and taking care of Americans here at home, should be every candidates main focus. and for me, john McCain is a warmonger, that scares the shit out of me. you know the old saying, once a fighter, always a fighter. he would love nothing more then to make his mark by using whatever force necessary around the world. after 5+ years in Iraq( that's not working) its time to give politics a chance[/quote]
Ok, I know McCain thinks we need to wrap up Iraq and not just leave but what else has he said that makes you think he is a war monger. You can also say a person who has fought in battle knows why to avoid a battle and I think he knows that better than 99% of the American people.

Re: BitterGate
 

haven't you heard any of the " mistakes" of McCain speaking on behalf of Iran?

Re: BitterGate
 

I think Obama said last week that McCain is not a warmonger. I think McCain has a much better understanding of the dangers and impact of war than the other candidates, and while it as at times disconcerting to think of more battles overseas, it's also a bit scary to think of what might happen if we just pack our bags and go home.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;439607]I think Obama said last week that McCain is not a warmonger. I think McCain has a much better understanding of the dangers and impact of war than the other candidates, and while it as at times disconcerting to think of more battles overseas, it's also a bit scary to [B]think of what might happen if we just pack our bags and go home[/B].[/quote]
ok, ill bite. what might happen?

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;439612]ok, ill bite. what might happen?[/QUOTE]

Well it's a whole other discussion in and of itself, but I don't believe in an insolationist policy. Or significantly worse, trusting the UN to handle matters. I definitely agreed with the decision to go to Iraq, but the execution and gameplan was poor.

I'm not convinced yet that Obama or Clinton have the right plan when it comes to foreign policy. Is war the answer? Of course not, but...speak softly and carry a big stick

Re: BitterGate
 

When it comes to providing the troops to support UN operations, we are the UN. I disagreed with going, but I did not disagree with staying there as long as we have. Now we need to shift focus and get out of there. It's time to take the training wheels off of the Iraqi government. If we start the redeployment process and the downsizing of troops now it could still take a couple if not a few more years to completely pull out of there. The sad thing is that I do not see us ever pulling out completely. Iraq is nothing more than a strategic military foothold to the middle east. It doesn't matter who we elect in my opinion, the sad truth that I just mentioned will be the truth for any candidate. I suggest picking your candidate based on the rest of their policies and not Iraq.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;439607]I think Obama said last week that McCain is not a warmonger. I think McCain has a much better understanding of the dangers and impact of war than the other candidates, and while it as at times disconcerting to think of more battles overseas, it's also a bit scary to think of what might happen if we just pack our bags and go home.[/quote]

So we try to prevent the future? Action could lead to just as much danger as inaction. Or as they say "blowback" in CIA speak.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439642]So we try to prevent the future? Action could lead to just as much danger as inaction. Or as they say "blowback" in CIA speak.[/QUOTE]

Well "blowback" is more about covert action isn't it. I'm not saying go blow up everything. I just don't think "Well I never voted for the war in the first place" is the right answer now

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;439645]Well "blowback" is more about covert action isn't it. I'm not saying go blow up everything. I just don't think "Well I never voted for the war in the first place" is the right answer now[/quote]

Sigh, Blowback is not limited to covert action. It's any action that has negative consequence on Americans and if that's not enough then I hope Abu-Ghraib, Guantanamo, and Secret Prisons quench your thirst.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439665]Sigh, Blowback is not limited to covert action. It's any action that has negative consequence on Americans and if that's not enough then I hope Abu-Ghraib, Guantanamo, and Secret Prisons quench your thirst.[/QUOTE]

Well excuse me then, I thought it referred specifically to covert action. Not sure what the "sigh" was for there

What's the term for inaction that has negative consequences? That's more of a rhetorical question. I don't honestly care what the answer is. This thread had me pretty bitter from the start.

Re: BitterGate
 

This week was the bloodiest in Iraq this year, the majority of Iraqis feel that the American presence is worsening the security situation, and Colin Powell became the latest person to point out that our troop levels are unsustainable. So what's the plan? What does McCain understand that I don't? What is the endgame and what is McCain going to do to accomplish it? It's easy to say packing up and going home is bad but unless things change (and they haven't in five years, come on, not really) where is the honor in remaining?

And Obama's comments were stupid. But at least he knows the difference between Shiite and Sunni.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;439668]Well excuse me then, I thought it referred specifically to covert action. [B]Not sure what the "sigh" was for there[/B]

What's the term for inaction that has negative consequences? That's more of a rhetorical question. I don't honestly care what the answer is. This thread had me pretty bitter from the start.[/quote]

For dramatic effect?

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;439395]we can respectfully agree to disagree. getting out of Iraq, and taking care of Americans here at home, should be every candidates main focus. and for me, john McCain is a warmonger, that scares the shit out of me. you know the old saying, once a fighter, always a fighter. he would love nothing more then to make his mark by using whatever force necessary around the world. after 5+ years in Iraq( that's not working) its time to give politics a chance[/QUOTE]

5 1/2 years?

This is what our country has come to. A spineless society who seem to not understand what it means to be at war. Don't get me wrong, I have SERIOUS misgivings with the war but not a single one of them has to do with time. If the right path in the Iraq would take 50 years then I would supoort it wholep-heartedly. War sucks and costs lives but if it is the right thing to do then it should be done right. Saying it has been 5 1/2 years and not everyone there is sitting around a camp fire singing Kumbaya so it is time to give up and do something else is SOOOOO misguided. If you are against the war for other reasons I can understand but don't feed me a line that basically says "Hey, we're a bunch of big pussies who don't have the guts to hang in there when things get tough" That is exactly what I hear when someone says something about how long this war has taken so politics must be a better answer. And I'd bet that's what our enemy would hear too.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=FRPLG;439682]5 1/2 years?

This is what our country has come to.[B] A spineless society who seem to not understand what it means to be at war. Don't get me wrong, I have SERIOUS misgivings with the war but not a single one of them has to do with time.[/B] If the right path in the Iraq would take 50 years then I would supoort it wholep-heartedly. War sucks and costs lives but if it is the right thing to do then it should be done right. Saying it has been 5 1/2 years and not everyone there is sitting around a camp fire singing Kumbaya so it is time to give up and do something else is SOOOOO misguided. If you are against the war for other reasons I can understand but don't feed me a line that basically says "Hey, we're a bunch of big pussies who don't have the guts to hang in there when things get tough" That is exactly what I hear when someone says something about how long this war has taken so politics must be a better answer. And I'd bet that's what our enemy would hear too.[/quote]

A 29 year old enthusiastic young chap like you is just what they are looking for to serve. I encourage you to join and fight for what you believe in. I promise to send you care packages every month.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439686]A 29 year old enthusiastic young chap like you is just what they are looking for to serve. I encourage you to join and fight for what you believe in. I promise to send you care packages every month.[/QUOTE]

Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;439687]Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you to a point FRPLG. We are a spineless society, in that we have fought a war with the children of the poor and paid for it with money borrowed from China. Had we been asked to make any sacrifices at any point I have a feeling the American people would have rejected this war. Not for any principled reason, but just because they don't like sacrifices. Now with an economy spiraling into recession, a depleted army, and a 3 billion dollar per day bill we can no longer afford to float, lets see how many people will be willing to actually make sacrifices to pay for this war effort. I'm guessing not many.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=FRPLG;439687]Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.[/quote]

The fact that you think how long the war is waged is irrelevant shocks me. You may not believe in the war but you lack vision and empathy. Vision required to see that there can't be a happy ending to the war no matter when it actually ends. Empathy required to identify with the soldiers who are serving multiple tours of duty, 15 month deployments and face stop loss.

I am spineless.

Re: BitterGate
 

I had thought the condescending "sigh" was discredited at the first Bush/Gore debate, Why it persists on the internet as a riposte eludes me.

The reason this statement is so damaging to Obama is that it exposes him as the candidate of the extreme left Move On/George Soros crowd that the MSM wants to pretend that he isn't. The only successful Democrat of the last 40 yars ran as a centrist, yet once again they are on the verge of nominating the most extreme candidate available. They can't help themselves.

His statement re-iterates a notion first articulated by Marx (Karl not Chico) which has been described as "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness"]false consciousness[/URL]". The idea was recently re-packaged as a book callled "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_matter_with_kansas"]What's the matter with Kansas[/URL]?" It's an intellectual device that Leftists use to explain why the working class doesn't support them. The proletariat is in denial, you see, owing to the dilema of their material circumstance. I suspect Obama was exposed to this idea by the more recent book (or a synapsis of it in some left wing journal) rather than by Marx himself. The only people that actually read Marx anymore are hopeless reactionaries such as myself.

More Reading: [url=http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=247]Dissent Magazine[/url]

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=FRPLG;439682]5 1/2 years?

This is what our country has come to. A spineless society who seem to not understand what it means to be at war. Don't get me wrong, I have SERIOUS misgivings with the war but not a single one of them has to do with time. If [B]the right path in the Iraq[/B] would take 50 years then I would supoort it wholep-heartedly. War sucks and costs lives but if it is the right thing to do then it should be done right. Saying it has been 5 1/2 years and not everyone there is sitting around a camp fire singing Kumbaya so it is time to give up and do something else is SOOOOO misguided. If you are against the war for other reasons I can understand but don't feed me a line that basically says "Hey, we're a bunch of big pussies who don't have the guts to hang in there when things get tough" That is exactly what I hear when someone says something about how long this war has taken so politics must be a better answer. And I'd bet that's what our enemy would hear too.[/quote]
this is my point. these bunch of idiots we have running this country have no real vision, or plan, on how to succeed in this so called war. in reality, war is ugly. war costs thousands of people their lives. but war is also knowing who the enemy is, and what the objectives are. it would be different if the Iraqi people wanted this United States invasion. i really don't think they did. these people have been killing each other for thousands of years. what makes us think we can impose our will of democracy upon them? and if that would be the case, who is next? China, Iran, North Korea? the list goes on and on. i really do believe this administration had the United States best interests in heart when this started. but this has been so mismanaged, its turned into a disaster. im not willing to sacrifice any more American lives on the CHANCE that the Iraqi people MIGHT embrace their freedoms. are you?

Re: BitterGate
 

I believe that the correct sentiment is that they wanted us there and now they want us gone. How quickly desires change once the job is done. In other words we have accomplished what they wanted us to. Sadam is dead and his regime is over. Only their own civil war can repair the unity and forge their own nation. We are nothing less than arrogant than to believe that we can do it for them.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=70Chip;439699]I had thought the condescending "sigh" was discredited at the first Bush/Gore debate, Why it persists on the internet as a riposte eludes me.

[/quote]

It's a sigh of frustration not condescension. Regardless, the point still stands.