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-   -   The Offensive Line: Let's Review (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=23389)

JoeRedskin 04-29-2008 12:19 AM

The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[U]CURRENT STATUS OF THE O-LINE:[/U]

Okay, the picks and UFA's are in. I suspect that we will not be adding any new lineman from other teams cuts (I could be wrong but I get the feeling that we will go to camp with what is currently on the roster). So what does our line look like for next year?

As I preface: I, for one, have been harping on the O-Line since last year. Preliminarily (yes, this is preliminary to my preface), when healthy, I think our starters are a good, borderline great, line. Given the age of our starters (all over 30), however, it is my opinion that I would expect two starters to be unavailable for an extended period of time during the 2008-2009 season. In light of that, I believe we will need some quality depth and I was just curious as to what we looked like after the latest roster additions.

[U]THE STARTERS:[/U]

[B]G Thomas, Randy [/B](9 yrs.; Turned 32 Jan. 19th) 6-5, 317.
[B]G Kendall, Pete [/B](12 yrs.; Turns 35 July 9th) 6-5, 292.
[B]C Rabach, Casey [/B](7 Yrs; Turns 31 Sept. 24th) 6-4, 296.
[B]T Jansen, Jon [/B](9 Yrs; Turned 32 Jan 28th) 6-6, 297.
[B]T Samuels, Chris [/B](8 yrs.; Turns 31 July 9th) 6-5, 310.

As I said, solid across the board, and other than Kendall, they have been together for Four (Five (?)) years.


[U]THE TOP BACK-UPS: [/U]

[B]OL Fabini, Jason [/B](10 yrs.; Turns 34 Aug. 25th) 6-7, 309: I was not thrilled with him early on, but warmed up to him as the season wore on. IMO, he gives us solid depth and fresh legs that can step into the rotation as a 6th starter.

[B]OL Wade, Todd [/B](8 yrs.; Turns 32 Oct. 30th) 6-8, 314: Needless to say, the TW as left guard failed. He had a lot of hype going into camp last year but I didn't see much when he played.

[B]T Heyer, Stephon [/B](1 yr.; Turned 24 Jan. 16th) 6-6, 320: Looks like he could be a keeper. Not sure he will be a starter anytime soon, but if he progresses, who knows.


[U]THE ROSTER FILLERS:[/U]

[B]OL Sampson, Kevin [/B](4 yrs.; Turns 27 June 19th) 6-4, 312: (From Scouts Inc.) He played effectively as a fulltime, first year starter this season but then the injury bug hit and he was eventually placed on injured reserve. He also had some issues in 2005, so his overall durability is a concern. He is a tough, blue-collar player that will compete. He is not overly strong, but he will battle inline. He is smart and gives excellent effort. He does need to add some bulk to his frame. He has good height and solid arm length, but he is not very thick in his upper or lower body. He is a little top heavy and that hinders his ability to play with consistent knee bend. He does show good enough athletic ability to play the right offensive tackle position. He can slide and move his feet well laterally. He can maintain contact with an above-average initial punch. He can mirror well after he makes contact. He shows solid foot and hand coordination when sliding with an edge rusher. Most of his limitations are in the area of strength. He does not have very good right offensive tackle bulk. He is not a very physical run blocker at the point of attack. He can make solid initial contact, but he falls off too many of his run blocks and struggles to maintain contact and finish. He is not very explosive in his first few steps. He lacks the upper-body strength to grab and control the defender. He can be a little upright as a run and pass blocker which hinders his power. It also makes him have trouble with power players that can get up underneath his pads. He needs to be stronger with his hands and punch. His upright style in pass pro gives him trouble handling double moves. He does not re-direct consistently versus double moves. Overall he is a young offensive tackle that played well at times this season. He has had issues staying healthy, which is why we have not given him an arrow up as an ascending player even though he has some tools to work with.

[B]OL Geisinger, Justin [/B](3 yrs.; Turns 26 May 24th) 6-3, 322: (From Scouts Inc.) Geisinger only appeared in two games in 2006. He is a depth offensive linemen at this point of his career who would be a liability as a starter. He is very smart and has an excellent understanding of the game. He is capable of playing several offensive line positions, but is at his best at guard. He also is very strong and this is particularly true in his upper body. When he gets his hands on defenders, he is usually able to manhandle them effectively in tight quarters. He is tough, aggressive and plays hard. However, Geisinger is a marginal athlete with noticeable stiffness. He struggles with his lateral agility, isn t real quick or explosive and has a hard time recovering when initially beaten. He isn t much of a factor in space or as a pulling guard. He plays the game too high, which can diminish his weight room strength. As he becomes more accustomed to the league, Geisinger has a chance to become a solid reserve linemen due to his toughness, size and intelligence, but you will not get much more from him.

[B]OL Washington, Tavares [/B](1 yr.; Turned 25 April 20th) 6-3, 320: (Nothing on the guy)


[U]THE NEW MEAT (Please pardon the plagarism):[/U]

[B]G/T Chad Rhinehardt;[/B] (Rookie, 3rd Round Pick) 6' 5", 311-pound, Right Tackle/Guard. Love this pick (Have I said that already?). Smart, versatile mauler with good attitude. Not sure where he will end up on the line, but where ever it is, IMO, he is gonna be a long term starter for us.

[B]G/T Shannon Boatman; [/B](Rookie, OFA) 6-5, 315-pound Right Tackle. He also played some guard for Florida State, so he has some versatility. He started two years and is thought to be a good developmental prospect. Boatman was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes at age 17, but he has been able to keep the disease in check.

[B]G Kerry Brown;[/B] (Rookie, OFA) 6-5, 305-pound guard from Appalachian State. He started four years and was a Division I-AA All-American. He is regarded as a tough, physical lineman who needs to fine-tune his technique.

[B]T Devin Clark[/B] (Rookie, OFA) 6-3, 305-pound offensive right tackle from New Mexico. He is expected to move inside to guard at the pro level, though. He participated in national Olympic-style weightlifting competitions, so he is a strong, stout player. He may have been bypassed in the draft due to recent ankle surgery.

[B]C Kyle DeVan[/B] (Rookie, OFA) 6' 2", 300 lbs. Played mostly center at Oregon State. He was a three-year starter and registered 232 knock-down blocks overall. He stands at 6-2 and 300 pounds.


[U]THE OUTLOOK:[/U]

So, outside of the Starters and Fabini (I think Wade is gone) there is a lot of youth to be developed here. Sampson and Guesinger look like journeymen who make stick around if none of the OFA's make it. Say we keep 9 linemen - the five starters, Heyer, Fabini, Rhinehardt and one or two of the OFA's, throw in Lorenzo Alexander and that's some solid youth being developed.

Going through all this, I feel better about our depth and our youth. Mind you, I am not saying that these young guys are all world beaters and that a line of OFA's is ideal. But, I think we have some good stuff to work with here. Also, unless I am mistaken, there is another draft next year and a mid-round pick or two on a guard or tackle could be made then.

Essentially, we have about six or seven young OFA's and UFA's competing for one or two slots. I can live with that and foresee much practice squadding.

jrocx69 04-29-2008 12:45 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
rinehart starts soon
kerry brown makes team
boatman will be watched very closely... PS?

wade released
fabini released

leaving...

samuels,kendall,rabach,thomas,jansen
backups: rinehart OT G C, brown OG, heyer OT

Kope65 04-29-2008 12:46 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Chris Samuels has only been here 8 years.....you scared me ... I was looking to see where I lost 4 years

What a redskin he has turned out to be, through all the BS he has seen here and not one bitch or complaint, we dont give him enough props. What a stud. He ranks up there w/ the team greats as far as i am concerned.

JoeRedskin 04-29-2008 12:53 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=Kope65;445620]Chris Samuels has only been here 8 years.....you scared me ... I was looking to see where I lost 4 years [/QUOTE]

Ooops, I will edit the error. Thanks for catching it.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 04-29-2008 01:21 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
It's pretty scary that our youngest O-lineman will be 31 at the start of the season. My guess is that everyone but Samuels is gone within 2 years. I pray Rinehart turns out to be a stud.

DynamiteRave 04-29-2008 01:23 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;445624]It's pretty scary that our youngest O-lineman will be 31 at the start of the season. My guess is that everyone but Samuels is gone within 2 years. I pray Rinehart turns out to be a stud.[/quote]

You think Jansen will retire or be traded away?

SmootSmack 04-29-2008 01:28 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
We're really not in as bad a shape as one may believe. I would have preferred to have drafted one more lineman at the expense of drafting that punter perhaps (however, with guys like DeSean Jackson, and probably Pac Man Jones in our division having a strong punting game is going to be huge.

As long as Joe Bugel is coaching those guys though, I'm not going to panic. The man was born to coach offensive linemen.

SmootSmack 04-29-2008 01:29 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;445624]It's pretty scary that our youngest O-lineman will be 31 at the start of the season. My guess is that everyone but Samuels is gone within 2 years. I pray Rinehart turns out to be a stud.[/QUOTE]

Youngest starting lineman you mean

SmootSmack 04-29-2008 01:33 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Here's a little article on Tavares Washington

[url=http://florida.scout.com/2/368313.html]Scout.com: SPRING: All Washington Needed Was Second Chance[/url]

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 04-29-2008 01:36 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=SmootSmack;445627]Youngest starting lineman you mean[/QUOTE]

Yeah. I'm just worried about making wholesale changes to the line in the span of a year or two. Supposedly "chemistry" means more to O-linemen than any other unit. I'd prefer to jettison about 1 starting o-lineman per year than 2 or so in 2009 and another 2 or so in 2010.

GMScud 04-29-2008 01:47 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[quote=SmootSmack;445628]Here's a little article on Tavares Washington

[URL="http://florida.scout.com/2/368313.html"]Scout.com: SPRING: All Washington Needed Was Second Chance[/URL][/quote]

As a HUGE Gator fan, I can tell you Tavares is solid. Coming from the SEC, he knows all about fast, physical defenses. I'm not saying the guy is gonna be a stud starter, but it's good to know we have his youth and presence for depth.

I think we can buy another solid year for sure with the current starters/backups, and maybe two more years with 3 of the 5 starters (Jansen and Kendall excluded in 2009). It's not the end of the world that we didn't draft a bunch of lineman.

SmootSmack 04-29-2008 01:48 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;445629]Yeah. I'm just worried about making wholesale changes to the line in the span of a year or two. Supposedly "chemistry" means more to O-linemen than any other unit. I'd prefer to jettison about 1 starting o-lineman per year than 2 or so in 2009 and another 2 or so in 2010.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, chemistry is definitely key to a strong OL unit. I think the backups by the nature of being backups are developing chemistry with each other. The concern is the chemistry they are developing with Jason Campbell.

GMScud 04-29-2008 01:55 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[quote=SmootSmack;445632]Yeah, chemistry is definitely key to a strong OL unit. I think the backups by the nature of being backups are developing chemistry with each other. The concern is the chemistry they are developing with Jason Campbell.[/quote]

Agreed. Chemistry doesn't necessarily have to be amongst just the starters at all times. As long as Buges keeps the whole group united and tough, and the guys get along in the locker room, chemistry won't be a problem. As far as I'm concerned, chemistry hasn't been any bit of an issue since Spurrier left. I would argue that we have one of the best, if not THE best locker room in football. Especially with that 21 jersey hanging strong.

irish 04-29-2008 07:02 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
The line is older and injury prone which is why I really wanted to see the Skins focus on getting a few quality linemen in the draft instead of WRs. I'd love to see the skins have young linemen in place and ready to go when these older guys cycle out instead of trying to pick up other teams cast offs and more older players.

saden1 04-29-2008 08:04 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Wow, our linemen are old, perhaps not in offensive line years but we'll need to draft linemen soon before the guys we have can barely walk.

joethiesmanfan 04-29-2008 08:23 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Wow Appalachian State getting alot of players in the NFL. Impressed!

EXoffender 04-29-2008 10:18 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
As long as there's free agency we're OK.

Stuck in TX 04-29-2008 10:30 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
was Buzbee cut or was the practice squad not included? I love that we loaded up on OL in the UDFA. I do not think we will have any problems with depth. Like some have said before, with Bugel there I have faith. I really like Stephon Heyer and I hope that the new additions will challenge him. I read Rhinehardt was taking snaps at Center, but if/when he develops into a starter we are going to need to get some depth at Center. I heart Rabach but we need some help if he goes down.

Jake2008 04-29-2008 10:37 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
I think we need someone to replace Jansen soon. Not sure how effective he will be on the end anymore with trying to come back from missing a year and his injury and his age. I think he will have problems with the speed rushers off the end. Jansen has been a warrior, but not sure he can play end much longer.

SmootSmack 04-29-2008 11:09 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=Stuck in TX;445722]was Buzbee cut or was the practice squad not included? I love that we loaded up on OL in the UDFA. I do not think we will have any problems with depth. Like some have said before, with Bugel there I have faith. I really like Stephon Heyer and I hope that the new additions will challenge him. I read Rhinehardt was taking snaps at Center, but if/when he develops into a starter we are going to need to get some depth at Center. I heart Rabach but we need some help if he goes down.[/QUOTE]

Buzbee is a DE

redsk1 04-29-2008 01:07 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
I like our oline for this year. We've had our share of fluke injuries in the last couple of years, so hopefully this year we'll remain fairly healthy. If healthy, we're one of the better olines around. We have a decent back up in heyer and Rinehart hopefully will be a serviceable back up.

Next years draft will really have to focus on the lines.

Dirtbag59 04-29-2008 02:02 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Brown and Rhinehart are going to be fun to watch. Boatman seems like a boom or bust type. I really wish though that they picked up a center like Justice in the 6th round to backup Rabach. I'm willing to bet they could have gotten Nichols in the 7th round.

drew54 04-29-2008 03:10 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Wasn't there talk of Lorenzo Alexander making the shift to Oline?

MrJL 04-29-2008 05:00 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
I'm impressed people think Rinehart can start soon. Most things I heard said he was a little bit of a project. But that might just have been because they didn't think much of the competition he played against.

With him being a tackle, shifted to guard and the coaches saying he'll also play center I wonder if we've got our new Raleigh McKenzie?

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 04-29-2008 05:11 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=drew54;445791]Wasn't there talk of Lorenzo Alexander making the shift to Oline?[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that issue has not been resolved. Some speculate that Alexander could be a starting guard.

Dirtbag59 04-29-2008 05:17 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[quote=redsk1;445771]

Next years draft will really have to focus on the lines.[/quote]

I disagree, and as you can probably tell from my SN I'm extremely pro O-Line. As I said in another post I believe they might look for a guy next year that could backup Samuals at LT and maybe a pure Center, but other then that I doubt the O-Line will get much of a look in 2009. Especially if Rhinehart and Brown fufill their potential.

I do agree though that D-Line will get a long and hard look next year, if not then Vinny Cerrato is an alcholic.

However if we take a reciever or TE in the first three rounds next year I will go emo and hurt myself.

Dirtbag59 04-29-2008 05:35 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Being the football junkie that I am I want more info on Kyle DeVan. All his scouting report says is this.

Kyle Devan
OC | (6'1", 307, 5.35) | OREGON STATE
Scouts Grade: 30
View by: Round | Player | NCAA School | Position | NFL Team | Flag | All Ranked Players | NFL Draft History
You are signed into Insider and have access to the exclusive draft content below.






,

skinsnut 04-29-2008 06:00 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=jrocx69;445619]rinehart starts soon
kerry brown makes team
boatman will be watched very closely... PS?

wade released
fabini released

leaving...

samuels,kendall,rabach,thomas,jansen
backups: rinehart OT G C, brown OG, heyer OT[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Red"]Are you sure Fabini was released?
When did that happen?
He is fairly decent as a backup[/COLOR]

MrJL 04-29-2008 06:02 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=skinsnut;445844][COLOR="Red"]Are you sure Fabini was released?
When did that happen?
He is fairly decent as a backup[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

These are predictions.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 04-29-2008 10:05 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
I have to wonder whether the implementation of the West Coast offense is going to mitigate whatever shortcomings we have along the O-line. The three step drops employed by the WCO should minimize problems with pass protection. Does anyone know if there is a positive correlation between the WCO and the number of sacks Olines give up?

Stuck in TX 04-29-2008 11:34 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=SmootSmack;445737]Buzbee is a DE[/QUOTE]

oops

rugged d 04-29-2008 11:34 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
well i think some homework is gonna have to be done on that one but you dont really hear to much about west coast qb's taking too many hits the good ones anyway cuz they can make the reads and get rid of the ball fairly quickly!

SmootSmack 04-29-2008 11:37 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;445912]I have to wonder whether the implementation of the West Coast offense is going to mitigate whatever shortcomings we have along the O-line. The three step drops employed by the WCO should minimize problems with pass protection. Does anyone know if there is a positive correlation between the WCO and the number of sacks Olines give up?[/QUOTE]

Well there's this

"The West Coast enables offenses to pass the ball without sacrificing the quarterback's health or his confidence. Of the nine teams that ran the West Coast last year, only two of them, the Broncos and Saints, lost their starting quarterback for extended periods of time. Five of the top 10 teams in fewest sacks allowed last season--the 49ers, Raiders, Giants, Broncos and Packers--ran the West Coast offense."

[url=http://www.encyclopedia.com/beta/doc/1G1-72050120.html]Why the West Coast offense has stood the test of time.(professional football) - The Sporting News | Encyclopedia.com[/url]

sportscurmudgeon 04-29-2008 11:57 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
The starting five OL can hold their own and make the offense work. But there is a big step down in ability with every injury that comes along. If the OL stays healthy, the offense will work well; if the OL suffers two or three injuries, the offense will sputter.

The best you can say about ALL of the subs on the OL is that they are "a work in progress".

That Guy 04-30-2008 12:05 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
looking at our depth definitely doesn't make me feel better...

reinhardt could start in a year or two (possibly)
heyer can spot start, but is mainly a backup
alexander could start at OG if he could be turned solely to offense and given a year

that's at best 2 good gaurds and an average RT as long term OL.

DL is basically the same way.

JoeRedskin 04-30-2008 07:48 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=That Guy;445924]looking at our depth definitely doesn't make me feel better...

reinhardt could start in a year or two (possibly)
heyer can spot start, but is mainly a backup
alexander could start at OG if he could be turned solely to offense and given a year

that's at best 2 good gaurds and an average RT as long term OL.

DL is basically the same way.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, and if that is where were staying, I would say we would be in trouble. But, we may get a serviceable lineman out of the OFA's, we can still work with next year's UFA's and the draft to pick up a starter or two over the next two to three years. It's not like this line is going to retire tomorrow. The line is a concern and depth must constantly be addressed, but there is still time.

mlmpetert 04-30-2008 09:06 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[quote=JoeRedskin;445956]Agreed, and if that is where were staying, I would say we would be in trouble. But, we may get a serviceable lineman out of the OFA's, we can still work with next year's UFA's and the draft to pick up a starter or two over the next two to three years. It's not like this line is going to retire tomorrow. The line is a concern and depth must constantly be addressed, but there is still time.[/quote]

What about Pete Kendall or Jon Jansen retiring after this year. I honestly dont think well see them both in the league after this year.

KB24 04-30-2008 09:19 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
Whoever plays where, I just hope the line is a little more solid, healthier and has more depth. Too many times last season, we had to keep Chris Cooley in to block and that takes a potential downfield weapon away from us. We have to get a more consistent performance from the O-line.

Stuck in TX 04-30-2008 10:03 AM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
[QUOTE=SmootSmack;445917]Well there's this

"The West Coast enables offenses to pass the ball without sacrificing the quarterback's health or his confidence. Of the nine teams that ran the West Coast last year, only two of them, the Broncos and Saints, lost their starting quarterback for extended periods of time. Five of the top 10 teams in fewest sacks allowed last season--the 49ers, Raiders, Giants, Broncos and Packers--ran the West Coast offense."

[url=http://www.encyclopedia.com/beta/doc/1G1-72050120.html]Why the West Coast offense has stood the test of time.(professional football) - The Sporting News | Encyclopedia.com[/url][/QUOTE]

This really says something. The 49ers had the worst offense in 2007. Of course that was due to injuries, bad coaching, and lack of talent but the fundementals of the WCO allowed hardly any sacks. Same with the Raiders. Lets not forget Schotty's Chargers from a year ago, a team that I thought would go to the Super Bowl. Rivers didnt have an injury problem until Norv stepped in. If Zorn is the real deal, I see nothing but good things for us. If Zorn is crap and loses his job after one season, at least our QB will be there when we pick up the pieces.

Dirtbag59 05-01-2008 02:33 PM

Re: The Offensive Line: Let's Review
 
We did a lot to shore up interior depth with the addition of Rhinehart and Brown. Personally I love the idea of those two being coached up by Buges, though I don't like the idea of Rhinehart filling in at center, and would have preferred to get a guy like Steven Justice to backup Rabach instead (I keep typing Raymer).

I am scared to death of losing Samuals to injury, but Heyer proved last year that he's more then capable of filling in for Jansen though I would much rather have Jansen. Rhinehart has experience at Tackle so maybe he can fill in there if needed, but I think in two or three years hes going to be a very good guard. I also think that Brown is going to have a good shot at becoming a pretty good starting guard in his own right, maybe better then Rhinehart if he gets his technique down pat. As far as the interior is concerned I would like to either see them get a true center in the late rounds of next years draft or have Kyle DeVan develop into a guy that can contribute, though I have my doubts about him.

Next year though I hope a Tackle of value falls to us at some point in the second or third round.


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