FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

Congratulations folks, [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/washington/10fisa.html?_r=1&oref=slogin"]we did it[/URL], all in the interest of national security of course.

p.s. Obama voted for it...I was wrong, he's just another wanker trying to get his.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

Oh and the really sad part of it all is that if you use Skype or any other VOIP technology that's encrypted they can't spy on you. Skype's communication channel is encrypted with a 256 bit key. What does that mean? It means you're pretty fucked unless the terrorist are absolute morons:

[QUOTE]A device that could check a billion billion (10^18) keys per second would require about 3x10^51 years to exhaust the 256 bit key space.[/QUOTE]

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

how retarded :/.

and the more both candidates talk, the more you realize it's all empty promises. neither one has put forth a legitimate method of paying for all the things that they say they want to do... just vague "we'll cut wasteful spending" type comments.

obama's changed his mind on iraq, mccain says he'll figure out how to balanced the budget, but that'll be hard unless he kills those tax cuts, which he has changed to a "small business tax cuts" position now, so maybe he's turning on that...

and they've both finally acknowledged that social security and medicare are broken (you can't balance the budget without doing something there), but i doubt it really turns into action in the near term, which is too bad.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

how come people are ok with this? if Bush wanted to revoke gun owners rights, in the interest of national security, would that be all right?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=saden1;455907]Oh and the really sad part of it all is that if you use Skype or any other VOIP technology that's encrypted they can't spy on you. Skype's communication channel is encrypted with a 256 bit key. What does that mean? It means you're pretty fucked unless the terrorist are absolute morons:[/QUOTE]

Brute force isn't always needed. ;)

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

I just don't see how this will involve many people and I know it won't affect anything in my life. All it does is give them the power to tap people of interest that have or they suspect to have terrorist ties. We have to remember that these people want to kill us and if it helps capture a few of theses guys then the bill has surved its purpose. Its not like they are going to tap each and every American to see what and who they are talking to.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;455932]I just don't see how this will involve many people and I know it won't affect anything in my life. All it does is give them the power to tap people of interest that have or they suspect to have terrorist ties. We have to remember that these people want to kill us and if it helps capture a few of theses guys then the bill has surved its purpose. Its not like they are going to tap each and every American to see what and who they are talking to.[/quote]

Very reasonable response. I think people think this bill allows wire tapping whenever the governement has a hunch and it's just not so. This version, whether one likes it or not, does have some checks and balances, much more oversight from the courts and congress, which won't allow the White House to run free willie with the Constitution.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=12thMan;455935]Very reasonable response. I think people think this bill allows wire tapping whenever the governement has a hunch and it's just not so. This version, whether one likes it or not, does have some checks and balances, much more oversight from the courts and congress, which won't allow the White House to run free willie with the Constitution.[/quote]
If I'm currect they can tap a suspect but then they have to get a court order or something like that to continue tapping that person. I just feel that this is a war that the terrorist are fighting from within so we have to give the goverment some powers to track them. Its not like they are taking up arms and saying hey lets have a war and fight this out. They will atack from within when ever they get the chance so we have to do what ever we can to stop them. I also think this should have been done behind closed doors with both parties working it out. The way it was done now makes it known to the terrorist that the goverment has the power to tap their comunications. We allready have made public to many of the ways we are fighting terrorist.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;455932]I just don't see how this will involve many people and I know it won't affect anything in my life. All it does is give them the power to tap people of interest that have or they suspect to have terrorist ties. We have to remember that these people want to kill us and if it helps capture a few of theses guys then the bill has surved its purpose. Its not like they are going to tap each and every American to see what and who they are talking to.[/QUOTE]

No offense but thats bullcrud! We had a system in place! It was called GET A COURT ORDER! They didn't get a court order. THEY BROKE THE LAW!! And now they have immunity for it. Its just bullcrud! The whole thing is bullcrud!

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Miller101;455944]No offense but thats bullcrud! We had a system in place! It was called GET A COURT ORDER! They didn't get a court order. THEY BROKE THE LAW!! And now they have immunity for it. Its just bullcrud! The whole thing is bullcrud![/quote]
First off the President was using a law which gives him power to do things in a time of war. They used that as their way to tap people and some say he over reached and some said he was within his his powers. This judge said it was not illegal.

[url=http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/30/00303.shtml]FISA Judge: Bush Wiretapping Broke No Law[/url]

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;455939]If I'm currect they can tap a suspect but then they have to get a court order or something like that to continue tapping that person. I just feel that this is a war that the terrorist are fighting from within so we have to give the goverment some powers to track them. Its not like they are taking up arms and saying hey lets have a war and fight this out. They will atack from within when ever they get the chance so we have to do what ever we can to stop them. I also think this should have been done behind closed doors with both parties working it out. The way it was done now makes it known to the terrorist that the goverment has the power to tap their comunications. We allready have made public to many of the ways we are fighting terrorist.[/quote]

Basically, that is how it works. Basically. I fully expect this bill to come up again and be presented to Congress again if Obama get's in the White House. This isn't the last we've heard about this.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=cpayne5;455921]Brute force isn't always needed. ;)[/quote]

The [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6098-2005Mar28.html"]alternatives[/URL] (dictionary attack and distributed net attack) are just as bad if the terrorist aren't [I]absolute morons[/I] (I know, that's an oxymoron) and they choose a strong 256-bit key.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;455915]how come people are ok with this? if Bush wanted to revoke gun owners rights, in the interest of national security, would that be all right?[/quote]

Are you calling al Qaeda?

Why are you so worried?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=saden1;455953]The [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6098-2005Mar28.html"]alternatives[/URL] (dictionary attack and distributed net attack) are just as bad if the terrorist aren't [I]absolute morons[/I] (I know, that's an oxymoron) and they choose a strong 256-bit key.[/QUOTE]

Nope, dictionary and distributed brute force is not what I was implying.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=12thMan;455951]Basically, that is how it works. Basically. I fully expect this bill to come up again and be presented to Congress again if Obama get's in the White House. This isn't the last we've heard about this.[/quote]
Well Obama voted for the bill and if he thinks he is going to win the White House maybe he realized that he too will need this to fight terrorist.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=12thMan;455951]Basically, that is how it works. Basically. I fully expect this bill to come up again and be presented to Congress again if Obama get's in the White House. This isn't the last we've heard about this.[/quote]
The point about the Telecom immunity probably won't be able to be re-visited though, correct?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Buster;455954]Are you calling al Qaeda?

Why are you so worried?[/quote]
slowly stripping Americans of their rights. and the closest i came to calling al qaeda was ordering a pizza last Friday. would gun owners give up their right to bear arms, in the name of national security? some how, i don't think so. these guys running this country have proved time and time again, that they think they don't have to play by the rules. so that's why im worried

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;455983]slowly stripping Americans of their rights. and the closest i came to calling al qaeda was ordering a pizza last Friday. would gun owners give up their right to bear arms, in the name of national security? some how, i don't think so. these guys running this country have proved time and time again, that they think they don't have to play by the rules. so that's why im worried[/quote]
So then what is your opinion on Obama voting for the bill and I'm still not sure what rights have been stripped from you. This is nothing new. If a cop is called to your home for some reason he can not enter without your permission or without a warrant. Now if he susspects illegal activity he can then enter your home. Whats the difference.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;455968]Well Obama voted for the bill and if he thinks he is going to win the White House maybe he realized that he too will need this to fight terrorist.[/quote]

It really was a no win situation for him as a candidate to be honest. On one hand, vote against it and you look weak on terrorism. Vote for it, you appear to slight the Constitution.

Also what isn't being reported is that earlier that same day Obama voted for a similiar bill, sponsored by Chris Dodd, that would have stripped out the immunity portion. It was defeated overwhelmingly. Later that day Obama voted for the other version of the bill that passed through the Senate.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=saden1;455907]Oh and the really sad part of it all is that if you use Skype or any other VOIP technology that's encrypted they can't spy on you. Skype's communication channel is encrypted with a 256 bit key. What does that mean? It means you're pretty fucked unless the terrorist are absolute morons:[/quote]
NSA has the capability to decipher a 256 bit key in minutes. Otherwise this encryption technology wouldn't be available to the public.

While many of our politicians are not the "sharpest tacks in the box", the folks doing the work at NSA are pretty smart and they have almost limitless funding.

[URL="http://www.marxbitware.com/modules.php?name=AvantGo&op=ReadStory&sid=18"]marxbitware.com - Cipher Strengths - Are They To Weak?[/URL]

[URL="http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/scrt/A3707480CD30489BCC2572ED00041F28"]Computerworld > Researcher finds RSA 1024-bit encryption not enough[/URL]

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=12thMan;455987]It really was a no win situation for him as a candidate to be honest. On one hand, vote against it and you look weak on terrorism. Vote for it, you appear to slight the Constitution.

Also what isn't being reported is that earlier that same day Obama voted for a similiar bill, sponsored by Chris Dodd, that would have stripped out the immunity portion. It was defeated overwhelmingly. Later that day Obama voted for the other version of the bill that passed through the Senate.[/quote]
So then what your saying is that Obama votes based on what he thinks will get him the most votes and does not vote on his belief.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;455990]So then what your saying is that Obama votes based on what he thinks will get him the most votes and does not vote on his belief.[/quote]

Not saying that all. But it still remains a fact. He's damned if doesn't and damned if he doesn't. Is he a politician? Absoulutely.

Votes? I'm not sure how this get's him more votes though.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=12thMan;455987]Also what isn't being reported is that earlier that same day Obama voted for a similiar bill, sponsored by Chris Dodd, [B]that would have stripped out the immunity portion.[/B] It was defeated overwhelmingly. Later that day Obama voted for the other version of the bill that passed through the Senate.[/quote]
I don't understand why some folks wanted the telecoms liable for cooperating with a Federal investigation. If they could've been held liable the result would've been a group of lawyers representing terrorist/anti-American interests and suing the telecoms for damages. This would then force the telecoms to not allow the government to access their information for investigations involving national security. The cost of the judgements if the telecoms lost would've been passed to the American people in the form of higher rates. It's a lose/lose for the American people we've hampered the government's ability to track and disrupt terrorist activity and we've raised our costs for phone/E-mail/internet.

I personally don't have a problem with the government(led by Rep or Dem) being able to access my phone/E-mail/Internet records if it has reasonable suspicion that I am involved in supporting terrorist activity. For the government to actually prosecute me or negatively affect me in any way they've got to jump through numerous legal hoops to make it happen. They can't break through my front door and cart me away to prison because I looked at a terrorist web-site one time.

I'll go down with a fight anyway, thanks to the recent 2nd Ammendment ruling :) (sarcasm)

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;455946]First off the President was using a law which gives him power to do things in a time of war. They used that as their way to tap people and some say he over reached and some said he was within his his powers. This judge said it was not illegal.

[url=http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/30/00303.shtml]FISA Judge: Bush Wiretapping Broke No Law[/url][/QUOTE]

WHAT!?!??! You actually believe that crap? The "Bush wiretapping broke no law" one.

If Bush's wiretapping broke no law then why is immunity included in this law THAT WAS JUST PASSED? It makes no sense dude! No offense, but this bill SUCKS!

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Miller101;455994]WHAT!?!??! You actually believe that crap? The "Bush wiretapping broke no law" one.

If Bush's wiretapping broke no law then why is immunity included in this law THAT WAS JUST PASSED? It makes no sense dude! No offense, but this bill SUCKS![/quote]
I haven't read the bill, but the immunity was for the telecom companies that cooperated with the governments requests/demands for information. I don't see how any rational person would think they should be liable.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;455996]I haven't read the bill, but the immunity was for the telecom companies that cooperated with the governments requests/demands for information. I don't see how any rational person would think they should be liable.[/quote]


I too find it hard to prosecute a company when the White House were the ones requesting the information. I understand that they were complicit, but if the POTUS is asking for information to make our country 'safer', how could they deny such a request.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

One thing I have noticed is that the people who had a problem with the gun rulling last week and supported gun bands now oppose this citing their constitutional right. The ones who liked the ruling about guns which they stated the 2nd now support this. So I guess we prove that people use the constitution as it fits their believes.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;456003]One thing I have noticed is that the people who had a problem with the gun rulling last week and supported gun bands now oppose this citing their constitutional right. The ones who liked the ruling about guns which they stated the 2nd now support this. So I guess we prove that people use the constitution as it fits their believes.[/quote]

Basically. We bend the Constitution to suit our needs. We're no better than the politians at the end of the day.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;455988]NSA has the capability to decipher a 256 bit key in minutes. Otherwise this encryption technology wouldn't be available to the public.

While many of our politicians are not the "sharpest tacks in the box", the folks doing the work at NSA are pretty smart and they have almost limitless funding.

[URL="http://www.marxbitware.com/modules.php?name=AvantGo&op=ReadStory&sid=18"]marxbitware.com - Cipher Strengths - Are They To Weak?[/URL]

[URL="http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/scrt/A3707480CD30489BCC2572ED00041F28"]Computerworld > Researcher finds RSA 1024-bit encryption not enough[/URL][/QUOTE]

I do not believe that the NSA can break RSA reliably. They may get lucky here and there, but I would have a hard time believing that they can crack a totally random key in a matter of minutes.

Even if they could crack RSA, they would have to catch the key negotiation when the AES keys are passed, in order to listen in on the good stuff. No way do I believe they can crack an AES stream on its own, though.

The openness of the these cryptographic standards is what makes them safe. The world is filled with brilliant mathematicians; they don't all work at the NSA. If there was a flaw besides brute force, I'm confident that the world would know about it.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;455988]NSA has the capability to decipher a 256 bit key in minutes. Otherwise this encryption technology wouldn't be available to the public.

While many of our politicians are not the "sharpest tacks in the box", the folks doing the work at NSA are pretty smart and they have almost limitless funding.

[URL="http://www.marxbitware.com/modules.php?name=AvantGo&op=ReadStory&sid=18"]marxbitware.com - Cipher Strengths - Are They To Weak?[/URL]

[URL="http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/scrt/A3707480CD30489BCC2572ED00041F28"]Computerworld > Researcher finds RSA 1024-bit encryption not enough[/URL][/quote]

It's about the algorithm used [I]and[/I] the key size. Even at 1024-bit key size RSA encryption is trash when it comes to encrypting data. No one in their right mind would use it nowadays because it's susceptible to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_plaintext_attack"] [I]chosen-plaintext attacks[/I][/URL] and there are better encryption schemes out there. What you really want is AES ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijndael"]Rijndael[/URL]) which the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Encryption_Standard#Security"]NSA approved for encrypting classified documents[/URL] or Twofish which is even better.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

saden, are you really bin laden?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456099]saden, are you really bin laden?[/quote]

No, I'm just paranoid mofo...I do use [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Philips-VOIP841-PC-Free-Wireless-Phone/dp/B000ND75FW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215729196&sr=8-1"]Skype[/URL] so my liberties [URL="http://support.skype.com/index.php?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=145"]are pretty safe[/URL]. I'm just pissed because this whole FISA thing is a f'ing sham. Might as well hope for security becasue terrorists on Skype can "win."

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=saden1;456057]It's about the algorithm used [I]and[/I] the key size. [B]Even at 1024-bit key size RSA encryption is trash when it comes to encrypting data. No one in their right mind would use it nowadays because it's susceptible to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_plaintext_attack"] [I]chosen-plaintext attacks[/I][/URL] and there are better encryption schemes out there.[/B] What you really want is AES ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijndael"]Rijndael[/URL]) which the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Encryption_Standard#Security"]NSA approved for encrypting classified documents[/URL] or Twofish which is even better.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=saden1;456104]No, I'm just paranoid mofo...I do use [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Philips-VOIP841-PC-Free-Wireless-Phone/dp/B000ND75FW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215729196&sr=8-1"]Skype[/URL] so my liberties [URL="http://support.skype.com/index.php?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=145"]are pretty safe[/URL]. I'm just pissed because this whole FISA thing is a f'ing sham. Might as well hope for security becasue terrorists on Skype can "win."[/QUOTE]

Pretty safe is correct, I guess. Skype uses RSA for AES key negotiation. If you can in fact use a chosen plaintext attack on RSA, then by using AES for the actual data stream is kind of pointless (other than the performance gained), I would think. Once you get the agreed upon key, you can then trivially decrypt all communications between the two parties.

But that all rides on a successfully executed chosen text attack. I've never seen RSA broken in that fashion, and if it has been successfully done, I'd love to see some performance stats.

All of this is neither here nor there, though. You can have the strongest encryption in the world, but in the end humans are the ones using it. Generally speaking, humans are terrible at securing their security. That is why you do not need brute force, chosen text, distributed brute force, mathematical cracks, etc to break encryption. Bluntly, people are stupid and lazy.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

btw, the whole "get a court order" thing is a sham, cause the courts just rubber stamped everything, so it really didn't provide any oversight or checks on power.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=That Guy;456114]btw, the whole "get a court order" thing is a sham, cause the courts just rubber stamped everything, so it really didn't provide any oversight or checks on power.[/quote]
Your right on in that and all it really does is delay the process. That delay could cost lives.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

I'm reading a lot of people who justify the removal of liberties with "improved" security.

While removing liberties [I]might[/I] protect us from one threat, it will only expose another -- the government. There has to be a better solution.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

ah, ghetto. the voice of reason. every time this administration wants some thing done, they use the fear of terrorism. they have said it so much, people are starting to become immune to it

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;456168]I'm reading a lot of people who justify the removal of liberties with "improved" security.

While removing liberties [I]might[/I] protect us from one threat, it will only expose another -- the government. There has to be a better solution.[/quote]
While I understand what your saying I just don't think the goverment has the man power or the time to listen in on every Tom, Dicks, & Harry's phone calls. It funny how peopl don't trust the goverment to handle this but they don't have a problem with them handeling things that really affect their lives like, SS, health care, schools, etc... So if we don't trust the goverment lets take away their power to handle the things that really affect our life.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456169]ah, ghetto. the voice of reason. every time this administration wants some thing done, they use the fear of terrorism. they have said it so much, people are starting to become immune to it[/quote]
This administration? So your man Obama is not smart enough to figure out if this was a bill he should or should not vote for and for that matter all the other dems who voted for the bill? This bill could not have passed without their vote.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

no one does everything right. i was a Bill Clinton supporter, but think NAFTA is a piece of trash. the democrats have talked about all they were going to accomplish. yet, they have done little/ to nothing. i think he took what he thought was the best piece of legislation that was passable. but you are getting off topic alittle. this is a bad bill for the United States public