russia/ georgia
 

its seems that president Bush will not stop until he has the whole world pissed at us. under his watch, we have now got into military conflict with 2 countries, that haven't attacked us. i wondering how he has the authority to do this, without going thru congress, or the united nations? for me, this just solidifies his place in history, as the all time worse president, ever. what happened to this great relationship he claims to have with Vlad Putin? another case of talking out the side of your mouth? any of the younger warpath members had better get ready, because its only a matter of time before this moron institutes the draft again. god, i cant wait for November

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;464498]its seems that president Bush will not stop until he has the whole world pissed at us. under his watch, we have now got into military conflict with 2 countries, that haven't attacked us. i wondering how he has the authority to do this, without going thru congress, or the united nations? for me, this just solidifies his place in history, as the all time worse president, ever. what happened to this great relationship he claims to have with Vlad Putin? another case of talking out the side of your mouth? any of the younger warpath members had better get ready, because its only a matter of time before this moron institutes the draft again. god, i cant wait for November[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about?

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;464498]its seems that president Bush will not stop until he has the whole world pissed at us. under his watch, we have now got into military conflict with 2 countries, that haven't attacked us. i wondering how he has the authority to do this, without going thru congress, or the united nations? for me, this just solidifies his place in history, as the all time worse president, ever. what happened to this great relationship he claims to have with Vlad Putin? another case of talking out the side of your mouth? any of the younger warpath members had better get ready, because its only a matter of time before this moron institutes the draft again. god, i cant wait for November[/QUOTE]

He doesn't need Congressional or UN approval to voice disapproval of Russia's invasion of a sovereign, allied nation or to send humanitarian aid (e.g., medical supplies) to Georgia.

FYI - Clinton bombed Serbia (a Russian ally) back in the 1990s....twice....without UN approval.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

im talking about president Bush ordering money and troops to Georgia. i know about Serbia, but am not sure of the facts behind it. i guess every conflict in the world is now OUR problem

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=dmek25;464516]im talking about president Bush ordering money and troops to Georgia. i know about Serbia, but am not sure of the facts behind it. i guess every conflict in the world is now OUR problem[/quote]
Beside aid to the over 100,000 people diplaced by the war what are you talking about.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;464516]im talking about president Bush ordering money and troops to Georgia.[/QUOTE]

Bush has ordered flights of humanitarian aid to Georgia. The flights are run by US Air Force personnel and are delivering medical supplies for refugees and wounded civilians. Are you honestly be opposed to humanitarian aid flights?

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;464516]im talking about president Bush ordering money and troops to Georgia. i know about Serbia, but am not sure of the facts behind it. i guess every conflict in the world is now OUR problem[/QUOTE]

No offense, but you don't seem to know the facts behind a lot with this thread you started. You don't mention that it's humanitarian aid we are sending, you don't mention that France led the efforts to negotiate a truce on behalf of the European Union, you don't mention that the UN itself has stated it wants to offer aid in the form of armed peacekeepers to Georgia to facilitate the cease-fire. You don't mention that that attempt by the UN requires the approval of its Security Council, of which Russia has veto power. You don't mention that NATO ambassadors are scheduled to meet (if they haven't already) at the request of the US.

So either you don't know or you choose to ignore and make it sound like no other country is involved while the US is dropping bombs.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

I guess that Bosnia and Kosovo could be added to list of wars we should have stayed out of.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

Dumbass Georgina president...you don't f*ck with Russia. What did he expect? Help from us? NATO?

Re: russia/ georgia
 

Saden, what up. Were are you getting your news from today? Does anyone even know how this war got started? Even the French are backing Bush and his humanitarian efforts. Well maybe, I don't know that for sure but it did sound good. I know Bush did talk to the French (what ever that guys name is). I think Bush even called Obama to see if he wanted to fly over to Georgian to just tell the guys to all get along.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;464533]Does anyone even know how this war got started?[/QUOTE]

I believe the Georgians cracked down on separatist rebels allied with Russia. It's questionable as to whether the Georgians were "in the right," but it's almost unquestionable that the Russians are "in the wrong."

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=firstdown;464533]Saden, what up. Were are you getting your news from today? Does anyone even know how this war got started? Even the French are backing Bush and his humanitarian efforts. Well maybe, I don't know that for sure but it did sound good. I know Bush did talk to the French (what ever that guys name is). I think Bush even called Obama to see if he wanted to fly over to Georgian to just tell the guys to all get along.[/quote]

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/weekinreview/10traub.html?_r=1&oref=slogin"]Here's the back story[/URL]. The Georgina president's rhetoric is surpassed only by his imagined allies and capabilities. No one in the west gives a rats ass about his two bit nation and no one will certainly lift a finger on their behalf to oppose Russia. The cold war maybe over and Russia isn't what it use to be but Russia is not a nation to trifler with. Not only that but they have as much claim to the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia"]disputed region as Russia[/URL]. Also, as much as they would like you to believe Georgia isn't a democracy.

[URL="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gg.html"]CIA Factbook[/URL]:

[quote]...An attempt by the incumbent Georgian government to manipulate national legislative elections in November 2003 touched off widespread protests that led to the resignation of Eduard SHEVARDNADZE, president since 1995. New elections in early 2004 swept Mikheil SAAKASHVILI into power along with his National Movement party. Progress on market reforms and democratization has been made in the years since independence, but this progress has been complicated by two ethnic conflicts in the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. These two territories remain outside the control of the central government and are ruled by de facto, unrecognized governments, supported by Russia. Russian-led peacekeeping operations continue in both regions.[/quote]

Re: russia/ georgia
 

rumors the russians gave the south ossetian seperatists mortars (russian peacekeepers supplying "terrorists" with weapons) and told them to fire them... also rumors russia might be looking to capture the georgian pipeline access to europe or their port (for future military use, since the ukraine is kicking them out of their port base in a couple years).

just saying, it took months to build up those armored divisions on the border. this was planned.

as far as the draft and ordering soldiers, wtf are you smoking? i seriously doubt we're looking for armed conflict with russia proper. please put the pipe down.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

Regardless of what the Russians are doing, South Ossetians are rejecting Georgian advances for reunification. Get a clue, they don't to be part of your country! Rumor also has it that South Ossetia has oil. Facts have it that Russia already had troops there for "peace keeping."

You know, if Israel can do it, United States can do it, why not Russia? China? Anybody else for that matter? If you got the power flaunt it!

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=saden1;464540]Regardless of what the Russians are doing, South Ossetians are rejecting Georgian advances for reunification. Get a clue, they don't to be part of your country! Rumor also has it that South Ossetia has oil. Facts have it that Russia already had troops there for "peace keeping."

You know, if Israel can do it, United States can do it, why not Russia? China? Anybody else for that matter? If you got the power flaunt it![/quote]

yeah, i was saying those "peacekeepers" that were already there pre-invasion may have given the seperatists weapons and instructed them to use them to provoke a georgian response and give russia a reason to start a tank stampede...

at this point it's sort of hard to tell what's been happening on the ground in exact detail though.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=saden1;464540]Regardless of what the Russians are doing, South Ossetians are rejecting Georgian advances for reunification. Get a clue, they don't to be part of your country! Rumor also has it that South Ossetia has oil. Facts have it that Russia already had troops there for "peace keeping."

[B]You know, if Israel can do it, United States can do it, why not Russia? China? Anybody else for that matter? If you got the power flaunt it![/B][/QUOTE]

What an amazingly salient point. Why does this perspective constantly elude 99% of Americans?

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=That Guy;464567]yeah, i was saying those "peacekeepers" that were already there pre-invasion may have given the seperatists weapons and instructed them to use them to provoke a georgian response and give russia a reason to start a tank stampede...

at this point it's sort of hard to tell what's been happening on the ground in exact detail though.[/quote]

You mean to tell me they set the whole thing up and went to war under false pretense?

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;464569]What an amazingly salient point. Why does this perspective constantly elude 99% of Americans?[/QUOTE]

I think that concept eludes closer to 100% of Americans (and everyone else around the world for that matter). ;) Even those who champion the virtues of the UN want the U.S. to use its power unilaterally when the mood so strikes.

Take Kosovo and Bosnia as an example. For years, the left had talked about the need to work through international organizations to accomplish our foreign policy objectives because, after all, one day we would no longer be top dog. Then along came the breakup of Yugoslavia and some horrific crimes against humanity. The left wanted to take action but, alas, Russia threatened to veto any UN Security Council resolutions authorizing the use of force against their Serb allies. So what did the left do? They told the UN to go f' itself and bombed the Serbs without UN approval.

I don't mean to pick on the left. The right tends to care even less about the UN and international law.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;464535]I believe the Georgians cracked down on separatist rebels allied with Russia. It's questionable as to whether the Georgians were "in the right," but it's almost unquestionable that the Russians are "in the wrong."[/QUOTE]

It's a complex situation (as most of these situations are) involving multiple countries. To act as though this is just the US sending its military might into the region, and making some sort of connection between this and a draft is simply ignorant.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

Given how important this issue is it's a shame that this thread was framed as an attack on Bush, who really is a very minor player in this fiasco.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=SmootSmack;464573]It's a complex situation (as most of these situations are) involving multiple countries. To act as though this is just the US sending its military might into the region, and [B]making some sort of[/B] [B]connection between this and a draft is simply ignorant[/B].[/quote]
if the connection between 9-11 and iraq can be made, so can this one. i dont know why this seems so unreasonable. i dont think old W has any problem opening up the cold war again

Re: russia/ georgia
 

In 2004 the military was considering reinstituting the Draft.

[URL="http://media.www.thelantern.com/media/storage/paper333/news/2004/04/19/Opinion/U.s-Considering.Mandatory.Draft-664493.shtml"]U.S. considering mandatory draft - Opinion[/URL]

And again in 2007

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/10/war.adviser.draft.ap/]Iraq war czar: Consider a draft - CNN.com[/url]

In 2007 it was explained why they didn't.

[URL="http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070813150223.tj19y2s7&show_article=1"]US not considering draft: Pentagon[/URL]

Conclusion: It is not a strectch of the imagination that reinstituting the Draft is considered by our government and military from time to time. However, they always revert back to the "An all volunteer Army is a better Army" theory.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;464588]if the connection between 9-11 and iraq can be made, so can this one. i dont know why this seems so unreasonable. i dont think old W has any problem opening up the cold war again[/QUOTE]

Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that. What about Putin? You think he has any problem opening up the cold war again?

I echo the sentiments of djnemo here "Given how important this issue is it's a shame that this thread was framed as an attack on Bush, who really is a very minor player in this fiasco."

Look, my point is you don't like Bush. We all get it. A lot of people don't. But it minimizes legitimate resons to have issues with him when one posts something that is inaccurate or incomplete with the not so thinly veiled pretense to present an attack on him. I think it's a good thread you brought up but personally I feel your statements in the original post are entirely misleading and ignorant in several ways.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=Angry;464589]In 2004 the military was considering reinstituting the Draft.

[URL="http://media.www.thelantern.com/media/storage/paper333/news/2004/04/19/Opinion/U.s-Considering.Mandatory.Draft-664493.shtml"]U.S. considering mandatory draft - Opinion[/URL]

And again in 2007

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/10/war.adviser.draft.ap/]Iraq war czar: Consider a draft - CNN.com[/url]

In 2007 it was explained why they didn't.

[URL="http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070813150223.tj19y2s7&show_article=1"]US not considering draft: Pentagon[/URL]

Conclusion: It is not a strectch of the imagination that reinstituting the Draft is considered by our government and military from time to time. However, they always revert back to the "An all volunteer Army is a better Army" theory.[/QUOTE]

Good information. Thanks

Re: russia/ georgia
 

From the U.S standpoint, the main strategic goal should be to prevent the alliance of the two Fascist Powers-China and Russia. Paging Richard Nixon.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

Wow Dmek, once again putting on display for all the Warpath to see exactly how uneducated you are.

Pathetic attempt at a good topic.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

The attacks on Bush in this thread are simply the most obvious reflection of politics we've seen on this board. Rather than understanding what is actually going on the lefties are seeing only what they want to see and quite honestly they're being seriously obtuse. I get that people don't like Bush and disagree with him but it is thinking like the examples shown here that make finding solutions for our problems so difficult. No one ever wants the "other side" to get any credit for anything and they work constantly to discredit them while not focusing on working for solutions. It comes from both sides but the attitude towards Bush is the most flagrant example. I thought the way the right went after Clinton was bad but I think the way the left goes after Bush is somewhat worse.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;464650]The attacks on Bush in this thread are simply the most obvious reflection of politics we've seen on this board. Rather than understanding what is actually going on the lefties are seeing only what they want to see and quite honestly they're being seriously obtuse. I get that people don't like Bush and disagree with him but it is thinking like the examples shown here that make finding solutions for our problems so difficult. No one ever wants the "other side" to get any credit for anything and they work constantly to discredit them while not focusing on working for solutions. It comes from both sides but the attitude towards Bush is the most flagrant example. I thought the way the right went after Clinton was bad but I think the way the left goes after Bush is somewhat worse.[/QUOTE]

I think it's really only one person in this thread, not the "lefties" as a whole.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;464654]I think it's really only one person in this thread, not the "lefties" as a whole.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I generally don't take part in political threads on this site because of the incorrect statements like the one in the original post and the blanket statement FRPLG just made.

I think what's sad is that it seems that both sides have so polarized politics. I don't understand why every moderate has been basically forced to join the (I'd say) 3% of extremists on the edges of political reason. It makes no sense for parties to be so divisive toward one another.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

No need for personal attacks...they certainly don't elevate and evolve the conversation.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;464572]I think that concept eludes closer to 100% of Americans (and everyone else around the world for that matter). ;) Even those who champion the virtues of the UN want the U.S. to use its power unilaterally when the mood so strikes.

Take Kosovo and Bosnia as an example. For years, the left had talked about the need to work through international organizations to accomplish our foreign policy objectives because, after all, one day we would no longer be top dog. Then along came the breakup of Yugoslavia and some horrific crimes against humanity. The left wanted to take action but, alas, Russia threatened to veto any UN Security Council resolutions authorizing the use of force against their Serb allies. So what did the left do? They told the UN to go f' itself and bombed the Serbs without UN approval.

I don't mean to pick on the left. The right tends to care even less about the UN and international law.[/QUOTE]

My point in agreeing with saden1 is that you never hear the end of individuals in this country talking about how we should just "turn that desert into a sheet of glass" and how we could/should take down anybody that disagrees with us. But let some other country exert that same self-granted moral authority over another and we as citizens tend to get up in arms.

I'm not saying that Russia is right or wrong with their present course of action, but I think that if you look at the situation objectively, the conflict between Georgia and Russia is, from a very simplistic standpoint, fundamentally similar to the one we have with Iraq. Both countries (Russia and the US) are using a perceived injustice to justify their larger goal of regime change in another country. We can hide behind western morality all we like but the simple fact is that we have customarily used our superior military force to make changes to governments with views contrary to our own.

Were i able to read in Russian, I have no doubt that state-backed Newspapers/Media talk about how it is important to crush the terrorists (or whatever buzzword the Russian govt has chosen to identify those with whom it disagrees). I'm sure the drumbeat throughout Moscow right now is remarkably similar to the one heard in Washington during May of 2003. But because the aggressor in this case is ANYONE other than the United States, Great Britain or Israel, they are of course wrong.

I'm not being unpatriotic, I'm merely pointing out the extreme irony of the pot calling the kettle "black."

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;464654]I think it's really only one person in this thread, not the "lefties" as a whole.[/QUOTE]

I think everyone does it to some degree and not just on this issue. I was a little rantish there I guess.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=dmek25;464588]if the connection between 9-11 and iraq can be made, so can this one. i dont know why this seems so unreasonable. i dont think old W has any problem opening up the cold war again[/quote]
So your back in your democrat hand book. Also please find us the quote from this administration linking Iraq to 9/11. The only thing have ever heard and the 9/11 report confirmed that Iraq did have some ties to terrorist organizations.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=saden1;464664]No need for personal attacks...they certainly don't elevate and evolve the conversation.[/quote]
While I agree that Sadens post starting this thread was not based on allot of facts we should not make this personal or attack him personaly. Me and Saden agree on about nothing when it comes to politics but we also never use personal attacks on each other so lets not start now.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=Schneed10;464639]Wow Dmek, once again putting on display for all the Warpath to see exactly how uneducated you are.

Pathetic attempt at a good topic.[/quote]
one of these days, im going to pick up a book, or 2, so i can elevate my intelligence to somewhere near the level of someone like you. i know in my wildest dreams i could never achieve this greatness, but maybe i could be somewhere in the same area code. and thanks to saden, and firstdown, for not making it personal

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[quote=dmek25;464679]one of these days, im going to pick up a book, or 2, so i can elevate my intelligence to somewhere near the level of someone like you. i know in my wildest dreams i could never achieve this greatness, but maybe i could be somewhere in the same area code. and thanks to saden, and firstdown, for not making it personal[/quote]
Your welcome but before you start reading a new book I would like for you to first find that link this administration made of 9/11 to Iraq.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;464669]We can hide behind western morality all we like but the simple fact is that we have customarily used our superior military force to make changes to governments with views contrary to our own[/QUOTE]

To be clear-not to you, but to others who may think so-this did not begin with W. Not talking about what other countries have done, using our military might to "encourage" changes worlwide (good or bad) is something we have done for decades if not longer.


Model Citizen Zero Discipline....Panama! Panama!

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;464675]While I agree that Sadens post starting this thread was not based on allot of facts we should not make this personal or attack him personaly. Me and Saden agree on about nothing when it comes to politics but we also never use personal attacks on each other so lets not start now.[/QUOTE]

I think you mean dmek's post starting the thread, not saden's.

Re: russia/ georgia
 

"Cease Fire, Cease Fire!"

I am Mikhail Saakashvili and approve this message.

[IMG]http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/34446/thumbs/r-CEASEFIRE-large.jpg[/IMG]

Re: russia/ georgia
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;464693]To be clear-not to you, but to others who may think so-this did not begin with W. Not talking about what other countries have done, using our military might to "encourage" changes worlwide (good or bad) is something we have done for decades if not longer.


Model Citizen Zero Discipline....Panama! Panama![/QUOTE]

To be truthful, we have done it ever since we realized we had the means to do so.